Vampires and Spawn - Permanent

[pbdr]

So, this is apt because of the recent OotS story line and I remember the recent thread, but for the record, was there a simple (i.e. 8th level cleric) way to "unspawn" a vampire or a spawn? How about a 15th lvl cleric or wizard? Could they do it?

It may become important int h next few sessions of my campaign....

[Nettlekid]

So, this is apt because of the recent OotS story line and I remember the recent thread, but for the record, was there a simple (i.e. 8th level cleric) way to "unspawn" a vampire or a spawn? How about a 15th lvl cleric or wizard? Could they do it?

It may become important int h next few sessions of my campaign....

No. There is no un-vamping spell. The only way to do it is to kill the Undead creature and cast Resurrection on them (Raise Dead won't cut it.)

[The honest illusionist]

So, this is apt because of the recent OotS story line and I remember the recent thread, but for the record, was there a simple (i.e. 8th level cleric) way to "unspawn" a vampire or a spawn? How about a 15th lvl cleric or wizard? Could they do it?

About as easily as they could "unspawn" a human, I suppose.

[tyckspoon]

I don't know of any way to convert a Vampire back into its former living self short of destroying and then Resurrecting it, but you could make a decent case that casting a Protection From (Alignment) spell on it would give an enslaved Vampire its free will back for the duration of the spell.

[Crake]

I don't know of any way to convert a Vampire back into its former living self short of destroying and then Resurrecting it, but you could make a decent case that casting a Protection From (Alignment) spell on it would give an enslaved Vampire its free will back for the duration of the spell.

Resurrection can turn undead creatures into their former living selves if they're willing, so if your DM allows this to give them their free will back for a short period of time (long enough to cast resurrection on them), then they should be able to revert to their normal selves without resorting to killing them, and thus incurring the level loss (since that only happens for dead people not undead people)

[Jack_Simth]

I don't know of any way to convert a Vampire back into its former living self short of destroying and then Resurrecting it, but you could make a decent case that casting a Protection From (Alignment) spell on it would give an enslaved Vampire its free will back for the duration of the spell.
No. There is no un-vamping spell. The only way to do it is to kill the Undead creature and cast Resurrection on them (Raise Dead won't cut it.)
Well, there's a clause in the Undead Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.(emphasis added)

So while you can't resurrect a vampire spawn, a Resurrection spell applied directly to the vampire spawn turns it back into a living critter.

Of course, the casting time and material component make it largely unsuitable for combat use....

[Nettlekid]

Well, there's a clause in the Undead Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):(emphasis added)

So while you can't resurrect a vampire spawn, a Resurrection spell applied directly to the vampire spawn turns it back into a living critter.

Of course, the casting time and material component make it largely unsuitable for combat use....

Ah, not quite. Resurrection and True Resurrection are both based on Raise Dead, whose target is Dead Creature Touched. An Undead creature is not a dead creature. In order to cast the spell on the creature, the undead creature must be killed first.

That clause is there so that you know you can't bring a vampire back to life as a vampire with Resurrection.

[Jack_Simth]

Ah, not quite. Resurrection and True Resurrection are both based on Raise Dead, whose target is Dead Creature Touched. An Undead creature is not a dead creature. In order to cast the spell on the creature, the undead creature must be killed first.

That clause is there so that you know you can't bring a vampire back to life as a vampire with Resurrection.
Transmute Rock to Mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) specifies "This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud" and "Magical stone is not affected by the spell."

Does that mean when you cast it on a Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem), that there is no effect on the golem?

[Nettlekid]

Transmute Rock to Mud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/transmuteRockToMud.htm) specifies "This spell turns natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of mud" and "Magical stone is not affected by the spell."

Does that mean when you cast it on a Stone Golem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/golem.htm#stoneGolem), that there is no effect on the golem?

I daresay that's a case of specific trumps general, since many spells cast on Golems have effects that are outside the normal effect for that spell.

[unseenmage]

In the old 3.0 Savage Species book there are Rituals for changing creatures from one race/type to another.

They're horrendously expensive but one assumes they'd work to rewrite a vampire back to their old self.

[Mr. Mason]

Automatically my mind goes to Miracle, but I assume you want a non-Miracle answer...

[Jack_Simth]

I daresay that's a case of specific trumps general, since many spells cast on Golems have effects that are outside the normal effect for that spell.
Exactly. And if you check the undead type (as opposed to just looking at the text of the Resurrection spell), it has a definition for effects that are outside the normal effect of the Resurrection and True Resurrection spells.

Cast True Resurrection when the corpse is walking around elsewhere as a zombie? No effect.
Kill the zombie, cast True Resurrection? The living person is back.
Cast True Resurrection directly on the active zombie? It comes back as the living creature it once was.

[Randomocity132]

No. There is no un-vamping spell. The only way to do it is to kill the Undead creature and cast Resurrection on them (Raise Dead won't cut it.)

That sounds close enough to me......

[Nettlekid]

Exactly. And if you check the undead type (as opposed to just looking at the text of the Resurrection spell), it has a definition for effects that are outside the normal effect of the Resurrection and True Resurrection spells.

Cast True Resurrection when the corpse is walking around elsewhere as a zombie? No effect.
Kill the zombie, cast True Resurrection? The living person is back.
Cast True Resurrection directly on the active zombie? It comes back as the living creature it once was.

Huh, I guess you're right. I didn't notice that bit in the Undead type description.

[The Viscount]

Huh, I guess you're right. I didn't notice that bit in the Undead type description.

Note that the descriptions for these two spells say "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed." We've had this discussion in the dysfunctional rules thread, and some interpret this to mean that the spells destroy the undead and raise them. I interpret it to mean that you must first destroy the undead, then attempt to use resurrection.

[Nettlekid]

Note that the descriptions for these two spells say "You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed." We've had this discussion in the dysfunctional rules thread, and some interpret this to mean that the spells destroy the undead and raise them. I interpret it to mean that you must first destroy the undead, then attempt to use resurrection.

That's what I was saying, but those above suggested that you can use the spell directly on the Undead.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Compare these lines in the undead and outsider type descriptions:

Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.

Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Although the Undead description is much sparser, I'd argue that they're saying the same things. An Undead creature can't be restored to "life" by those spells. The Undead description goes on to describe how some of the spells can interact with the Undead, but I'd argue that from context this merely refers to the standard usage of those spells: If your vampire character gets killed can the party cleric raise him? No, but he can resurrect him into his pre-vampire state. The text of Resurrection supports this interpretation. The text of the Undead type description is perfectly compatible with this interpretation when you consider the context.

[Nettlekid]

Compare these lines in the undead and outsider type descriptions:


Although the Undead description is much sparser, I'd argue that they're saying the same things. An Undead creature can't be restored to "life" by those spells. The Undead description goes on to describe how some of the spells can interact with the Undead, but I'd argue that from context this merely refers to the standard usage of those spells: If your vampire character gets killed can the party cleric raise him? No, but he can resurrect him into his pre-vampire state. The text of Resurrection supports this interpretation. The text of the Undead type description is perfectly compatible with this interpretation when you consider the context.

That's not what's being contested, we know that you can't use Resurrection to bring a dead vampire back to being a vampire. The question is, can you cast Resurrection on a vampire that's still fighting you, and "kill" it by turning it back into what it was? Or would the spell have no effect in that case, and it would have to be killed before it can be brought back to being a living, pre-vamp creature?

[Bogardan_Mage]

That's not what's being contested, we know that you can't use Resurrection to bring a dead vampire back to being a vampire. The question is, can you cast Resurrection on a vampire that's still fighting you, and "kill" it by turning it back into what it was? Or would the spell have no effect in that case, and it would have to be killed before it can be brought back to being a living, pre-vamp creature?
You've misunderstood me, because that is what I'm contesting. Resurrection does not kill undead. Nowhere do the rules state that it does. I was talking about what the rules do state in order only to refute such a claim.

[Nettlekid]

You've misunderstood me, because that is what I'm contesting. Resurrection does not kill undead. Nowhere do the rules state that it does. I was talking about what the rules do state in order only to refute such a claim.

Ah, okay, when you said the thing about the vampire being killed and the Cleric not being able to raise him but being able to resurrect into his pre-vampire form, and comparing it to Outsiders which are also unable to be raised, I misunderstood what you were arguing for.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Ah, okay, when you said the thing about the vampire being killed and the Cleric not being able to raise him but being able to resurrect into his pre-vampire form, and comparing it to Outsiders which are also unable to be raised, I misunderstood what you were arguing for.
Sorry, I was just trying to illustrate with an example.

To restate, the rules in the type description are saying that you can't restore a slain undead to "life" but that you can restore it to its pre-undead life. They are not saying that you can use Resurrection in a manner contrary to its own description. The type description and the Resurrection text are referring to the same thing when they talk about its interaction with undead, and nothing more. That is a perfectly consistent interpretation and it is not necessary to assume anything further.

[TuggyNE]

Sorry, I was just trying to illustrate with an example.

To restate, the rules in the type description are saying that you can't restore a slain undead to "life" but that you can restore it to its pre-undead life. They are not saying that you can use Resurrection in a manner contrary to its own description. The type description and the Resurrection text are referring to the same thing when they talk about its interaction with undead, and nothing more. That is a perfectly consistent interpretation and it is not necessary to assume anything further.

One of the problems I've found with this is the way the undead type phrases it: "resurrection … can affect undead creatures", and then going on to describe what happens when the spell affects a creature. Destroyed remains of undead creatures (i.e., what you'd target with revive undead) are objects, not creatures, so it seems to be implying that you can actually target the undead while still active. Who knows, maybe that's just lazy writing, but it doesn't seem all that implausible to me that that was in fact the purpose of that.