What If? Zhuge Liang Lives for 22 more years.

[ArlEammon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdbRjfS-CyQ&list=FLOrwLWeEmlBon3dgg6C0G6g

Zhuge Liang was a brilliant statesman and was considered the greatest military strategist of his era. He was Liu Bei's chief military adviser and was later appointed prime minister of the Shu state after the Three Kingdoms were established.

During the Three Kingdoms Era, it was believed Shu had lost it's place as one of the Three Kingdoms because of Liu Chan's inept rule, despite having powerful officers with good talents aiding him. If Zhuge Liang could live and serve effectively for another twenty two years, I wonder how much better the country of Shu Han would have done.

Would it have mattered, if so, how much?

[Aedilred]

Well, there are all sorts of things to consider, and counterfactual history is rarely straightforward.

I'm not an expert on the period by any means, but it seems that one of the reasons Zhuge was able to remain effective in the 220s-230s is that Liu Shang left him basically in charge. But Liu Shang was still a young man at this stage, and it's questionable whether as he got into his forties whether he'd have been so happy to delegate so much authority.

As I say, I don't know enough about the period to make a proper judgment, but it's often the case that a figure who seems (and/or is) of massive importance, and who either enacts lasting changes or whose death/retirement is followed by massive upheaval is riding the crest of a wave, or holding back an inevitable tide, of social or economic forces. It might be that there were systemic problems in the Shu state that would have caused its collapse eventually anyway.

Alternatively, maybe it really was Liu Shang's fault, but in that case, Zhuge would have needed to remain alive and in charge for the whole of Liu Shang's life/reign until he could pass on power to a more capable "successor", which isn't really possible.

[ArlEammon]

Well, there are all sorts of things to consider, and counterfactual history is rarely straightforward.

I'm not an expert on the period by any means, but it seems that one of the reasons Zhuge was able to remain effective in the 220s-230s is that Liu Shang left him basically in charge. But Liu Shang was still a young man at this stage, and it's questionable whether as he got into his forties whether he'd have been so happy to delegate so much authority.

As I say, I don't know enough about the period to make a proper judgment, but it's often the case that a figure who seems (and/or is) of massive importance, and who either enacts lasting changes or whose death/retirement is followed by massive upheaval is riding the crest of a wave, or holding back an inevitable tide, of social or economic forces. It might be that there were systemic problems in the Shu state that would have caused its collapse eventually anyway.

Alternatively, maybe it really was Liu Shang's fault, but in that case, Zhuge would have needed to remain alive and in charge for the whole of Liu Shang's life/reign until he could pass on power to a more capable "successor", which isn't really possible.

Well, that makes sense. However, it is within my opinion that since the two had a good relationship, that he would have let Zhuge Liang have such power.

[Brother Oni]

Well, that makes sense. However, it is within my opinion that since the two had a good relationship, that he would have let Zhuge Liang have such power.

Possibly, although there are two other interpretations: Liu Shang left Zhuge Liang in charge because he was so over-awed by Zhuge's reputation and capabilities, or he simply didn't care for affairs of statehood and let Zhuge carry on.

Given how Shu disintegrated, I'm inclined to think the latter. There's a Chinese insult of calling someone 'Adou' (Liu Shan's childhood name), meaning they are a significantly incapable person compared to their outstanding father (I can't phrase it very well, sorry).