Using Diplomacy to make people hate you.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Is there a set of rules in 3.5 or Pathfinder that describe how you would purposefully make another character want to fight you or ignore there better sense to try and fight you. I got the idea for this from watching Slap Shot, when the coach of the Chiefs goads the goalie of another team into getting into a fight (and getting thrown out of the game) by insulting his wife.

An example of when this might be useful in a D&D game is if you were in a diplomatic situation, and you wanted someone to make a fool of themselves by goading them into a fight. Or perhaps you could distract a guard by getting him to fight the party's tank for a bit while the party rake sneaks past him.

So yeah, any idea on how to do this or any ruleset that describes how it works.

[Sephoris]

There's a feat in Pathfinder called Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize). It uses either Diplomacy or Intimidate to make someone attack you, although only the Intimidate usage actually forces them to. The Diplomacy usage only gives them penalties to attack anyone but you, but it also assumes that you're using it on an already hostile target.

[Nettlekid]

The listed DCs for influencing NPC actions include low or negative checks causing a target to worsen their attitude toward you. If you were to purposely make a bad Diplomacy check, like by rushing it to take a -10 penalty, insulting them backhandedly to take a circumstance penalty to the check (perhaps toss in a Bluff check to make them think that you're trying to be tactful but failing, as opposed to actively trying to get their goat) and if you get less than 5, you could turn an Unfriendly person Hostile, which means they'll go out of their way to attack you.

The Goad feat also works a bit like this.

[Crake]

Why go through all that pain of finding ways to have bad checks when you can just slap them in the face? That tends to make people dislike you pretty quickly

[Hytheter]

Why go through all that pain of finding ways to have bad checks when you can just slap them in the face? That tends to make people dislike you pretty quickly

Circumstances might demand that you aren't the one to start the fight. Subtly provoking someone else to attack you looks a lot better socially than if you are the one to attack them first.

[captain fubar]

have a nice passage from dark_samuari's utility belt

Frenzy Water (A&E; 15 GP): Ever needed to make an NPC look like an ass during a social engagement, well here's your golden ticket. Losing a fortitude save of 15, the individual flies into a rage.

yay the ability to destabilise entire kingdomes as a first level mundane.

[Lord Vukodlak]

have a nice passage from dark_samuari's utility belt


yay the ability to destabilise entire kingdomes as a first level mundane.

Or have dinner and a show as the taste testers duke it out.

[kulosle]

So besides trying to rush the check, is there another way of getting a penalty to the diplomacy? I know a low cha will help but you can't get another -10 from low cha. Ideally you'd want to be able to have a guaranteed 0 or less on all your diplomacy checks so you can reduce anyone's attitude.

there are cused items, but i can't find a way of creating them.

[Telonius]

I'd generally handle this by roleplaying it out. But if you have to have numbers to it, I'd just reverse the polarity of the Diplomacy check. "Diplomacy" in general is all about making the person react to you the way you want them to. The skill assumes that "the way you want them to" is going to be "helpful," but that's not always the case. There are absolutely times where you'd like somebody to be horrible to you - "A Few Good Men" comes to mind. I'd just flip the row and column labels on the chart, and keep the same DC's.

[kulosle]

So if i'm reading right, then it would only be a dc 50 to make a helpful person hostile?

[Lord Vukodlak]

So besides trying to rush the check, is there another way of getting a penalty to the diplomacy? I know a low cha will help but you can't get another -10 from low cha. Ideally you'd want to be able to have a guaranteed 0 or less on all your diplomacy checks so you can reduce anyone's attitude.

Intentionally pissing someone off shouldn't be about trying to rolling low on diplomacy. Because people could see through the act for what it is a shallow attempt to make you angry. Or maybe the guy just finds the jokes about his mother and his wife being whores funny.

If the your goal with the skill is to tick the target off the result of a low roll should be a failure to tick the guy off.

[Segev]

What you're looking for is a Bluff (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm) check. All you need is to get them to attack once; after that, the fight is usually self-propagating without somebody's concerted effort to defuse it.


A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less)

[kulosle]

Intentionally pissing someone off shouldn't be about trying to rolling low on diplomacy. Because people could see through the act for what it is a shallow attempt to make you angry. Or maybe the guy just finds the jokes about his mother and his wife being whores funny.

If the your goal with the skill is to tick the target off the result of a low roll should be a failure to tick the guy off.

Oh i was just thinking of a character who tries to be nice to people and keeps pissing everyone off. Like i really like the idea of a paladin who tries to go around and be a mediator for people but just gets everyone pissed at him. At least he's getting both sides to work together at something, that thing just happens to be killing you.

But you are right that it probably isn't what the OP is looking for.

[Krobar]

We allow third party materials in our games (subject to review), and my personal favorite is the Netbook of Feats. If you allow third party material as well, there are a couple of feats in there that are really good for this.

1) Cutting Words - allows you to make an intimidate check against an opponent by simply using the spoken word at a range of up to 100 feet - your words are that scary and threatening.

2) Taunt - This is a special use of the Intimidate skill. On a successful check you can force an opponent to attack you.

I love these feats in combination. I have a bard that has them, along with Blooded, Improved Initiative, Arcane Strike, Craft Contingent Spell, and Scourge of the Seas. His Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate skills are maxed out, too. That guy is fun to play.


If you don't allow third party materials, I would go with Bluff, and come up with some truly vile and insulting remarks you can direct at your opponent. He might really believe you when you say you made his mama eat her own waste from a dog bowl.

[Segev]

I would go with Bluff, and come up with some truly vile and insulting remarks you can direct at your opponent. He might really believe you when you say you made his mama eat her own waste from a dog bowl.

Again, Bluff can explicitly do this under base rules. It can make the target act as you want for at least a round. "I want him to attack me, and I achieve it by making fun of his loved ones' private lives" is a valid declaration and use of Bluff. (It's obviously better if you spell out the insults, but it's to be assumed that your PC does as well as the roll indicates, not as well as you, personally, do.)

[Krobar]

Again, Bluff can explicitly do this under base rules. It can make the target act as you want for at least a round. "I want him to attack me, and I achieve it by making fun of his loved ones' private lives" is a valid declaration and use of Bluff. (It's obviously better if you spell out the insults, but it's to be assumed that your PC does as well as the roll indicates, not as well as you, personally, do.)

I agree. It's just more fun from a roleplaying standpoint to have a bunch of vile insults prepared in advance that you can pull out as needed.

[Segev]

I agree. It's just more fun from a roleplaying standpoint to have a bunch of vile insults prepared in advance that you can pull out as needed.

Oh, absolutely. My central point was that Bluff is the answer to the OP's question.

[Auramis]

There's a feat in Pathfinder called Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize). It uses either Diplomacy or Intimidate to make someone attack you, although only the Intimidate usage actually forces them to. The Diplomacy usage only gives them penalties to attack anyone but you, but it also assumes that you're using it on an already hostile target.

Huh. I really need to find Pathfinder materials to pull into our 3.5 D&D games. That's a pretty neat feat. Much better than Goad (http://dndtools.eu/feats/miniatures-handbook--75/goad--1238/).

[Lord Vukodlak]

I designed a spell called Inspire Hate which makes those effected hostile to everyone.

[Krobar]

I designed a spell called Inspire Hate which makes those effected hostile to everyone.

PHB II has one called Incite Riot (page 115):


(Player's Handbook II)

Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Bard 5, Beguiler 5, Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5,
Components: V,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature/level, no two of which are more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You sow discord among your enemies, spurring them to physical violence.

Each creature that fails its saving throw attacks the nearest creature on its next turn, whether friend or foe. An affected creature attacks with whatever weapon is in hand, or with natural weapons. An unarmed creature attacks with an unarmed strike. An affected creature not already adjacent to another creature will move or (if possible) charge the nearest creature; if the nearest creature is not within range of a charge, the subject moves toward the nearest creature along the most efficient route.



The bard I mentioned above knows this one.

[Lord Vukodlak]

PHB II has one called Incite Riot (page 115):


(Player's Handbook II)

Enchantment [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Bard 5, Beguiler 5, Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5,
Components: V,
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature/level, no two of which are more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You sow discord among your enemies, spurring them to physical violence.

Each creature that fails its saving throw attacks the nearest creature on its next turn, whether friend or foe. An affected creature attacks with whatever weapon is in hand, or with natural weapons. An unarmed creature attacks with an unarmed strike. An affected creature not already adjacent to another creature will move or (if possible) charge the nearest creature; if the nearest creature is not within range of a charge, the subject moves toward the nearest creature along the most efficient route.



The bard I mentioned above knows this one.

Mine lasts one round per caster level, but it is a higher level.

[Krobar]

Mine lasts one round per caster level, but it is a higher level.

We've ruled that, for purposes of this particular spell, once the fight's on, the fight's on. Those affected can voluntarily stop fighting, but that's not very likely when someone else just punched them in the face or cut them with a dagger or sword. Or even tried to do so.

But your spell guarantees that without need for that ruling. So enjoy!

[captain fubar]

the SRD has this little gem

Sword, Berserking

This item appears to have the characteristics of a +2 greatsword. However, whenever the sword is used in battle, its wielder goes berserk (gaining all the benefits and drawbacks of the barbarian’s rage ability). He attacks the nearest creature and continues to fight until unconscious or dead or until no living thing remains within 30 feet. Although many see this sword as a cursed object, others see it as a boon.

Moderate evocation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, rage, bestow curse; Price 17,500 gp.

just cast magic aura on it and sneak it into the tribute some other vassel is offering their fudal lord or somthing. expensive just to start a fight but not bad for an excuse to overthrow the monarchy when the king starts cuting down his loyal subjects and froming at the mouth. you may want to start some rumers about the kings questionable sanity before hand to make it less suspicous.

even better you can get a discount by crafting a version that is limited to only work for the intended alignment/race/class of the target reducing the chance that it will go off in the hands of the wrong person.

[The Viscount]

PHB II has one called Incite Riot (page 115):
The bard I mentioned above knows this one.

That's exceedingly similar to Song of Discord. All that's different is target, (20 ft radius spread) duration (1 round/level), and whose list it is on, but bard gets both. How odd.

As for penalties to Diplomacy and making people hate you, you could alwasy cast cloak of hate from HoH on yourself. It lasts a day per level, makes every NPC start one category worse than usual, and the target takes a -10 on diplo. Also people dislike the target it fluff ways as well. I love the Spite domain.