Crafting Skill

[PraxisVetli]

Hey guise.
So, I'm havin some trouble with crafting.
1. DC's cap at 30, ELH says by adding +10, you can reduce the time it takes. By how much is never mentioned.
2. The Balor wields a +1 flaming vorpal sword. HOW?!? Is there somwthing I don't know that takes his what should be a +6 into a +1? How can I do this?
3.(2.5) Am I simply doing this wrong? I thought the balir's afore mentioned blade should be +6, (+1 flaming +5 vorpal), but is that wrong? Or is it right, and his sword is a fluke?
3.5 To what end? theoretically, so player's can't have it, but firstly, by the time they're balor-hunting, don't they kinda deserve it? Second, it goes ka-plooey anyway, so what does it matter anyway?
4. Why is the financial jump from a +5 weapon to a +6 weapon so ludicrious? I understand that it's to limit pre-epic characters from getting out of hand, but lets be serious, that's a massive leap.
5. if time is all epic craft does, why does anyone ever put more than 10 in it then just take 20 and call it a day?
6. Suggestions for Epic Craft DC's?

I know this is a lot, but my player's just gained access to a new metal, and they want a lot of new toys; I don't blame them. But I need some help helping them!

[PraxisVetli]

Apologies for typo's, phone won't acknowledge "Edit" button.

[SiuiS]

The time it takes to make an item is directly based on progress by increasing the DC by ten, you accelerate your progress. You increase your speed, you don't reduce the time, if that makes any sense. Do an example, one with and one without the boost. You'll see a shift in creation time.

Magic rating (+1, +2, etc.) is usually a literal description. A +1 flaming Vorpal sword is a +1 sword (it deals +1 damage and benefits from +1 to hit), and it has the Vorpal and Flaming properties.

Players who disarm a balor can keep the sword, but yes; it's mostly a way i making the balor dangerous. You could just say its a +1 sword which is better when wielded by a balor. It only explodes if caught in the Balor's death throes.

The financial jump is arbitrary. Remember though, a "+5 weapon" gets that on both sides; it has up to +5 to hit and damage, but also up to +5 in special abilities. This allows for much better abilities to be priced at +6.

You cannot take twenty on a craft check, because there is a real and immediate cost for failing the roll. You CAN take ten however.

You do not use crafting rules for magic items. You can custom craft the base item, but enchanting it uses an entirely different system.

[Krazzman]

The Balor has a Weapon that is an effective +6 weapon but is a +1 Flaming Vorpal.

This means it is quite expensive. A weapon can be at maximum +10 but only have a maximum of +5 Enhancement bonus but needs at least a +1.
As such the he could either have an up to +4 Flaming Vorpal sword or another enchantment that costs +3 bonus.

I don't know the Epic Level rules but I would assume that is exactly because it is EPIC.

[PraxisVetli]

So now I'm slightly less confused, but still there.
Can you then have three +2 enchanments in a +4 weapon?
-side, my players are epic, so I know about +15 nonsense sticks-

[PraxisVetli]

The time it takes to make an item is directly based on progress by increasing the DC by ten, you accelerate your progress. You increase your speed, you don't reduce the time, if that makes any sense. Do an example, one with and one without the boost. You'll see a shift in creation time.

Magic rating (+1, +2, etc.) is usually a literal description. A +1 flaming Vorpal sword is a +1 sword (it deals +1 damage and benefits from +1 to hit), and it has the Vorpal and Flaming properties.

Players who disarm a balor can keep the sword, but yes; it's mostly a way i making the balor dangerous. You could just say its a +1 sword which is better when wielded by a balor. It only explodes if caught in the Balor's death throes.

The financial jump is arbitrary. Remember though, a "+5 weapon" gets that on both sides; it has up to +5 to hit and damage, but also up to +5 in special abilities. This allows for much better abilities to be priced at +6.

You cannot take twenty on a craft check, because there is a real and immediate cost for failing the roll. You CAN take ten however.

You do not use crafting rules for magic items. You can custom craft the base item, but enchanting it uses an entirely different system.

I know the sword doesn't kaboom by its self, I meant it isn't generally loot.
So the massive price jump is simply because +6 is more convenient to work with? That seems to imply how I had first understood this, that two +3's make a +6.

[SiuiS]

To avoid problems with the forum rules, there is the multi quote button on posts, it looks like "+, and it lets you highlight multiple posts so they all show up when you post (up to ten at a time). The preview button also lets you see replies so you don't have to double post. You might want to search for a new browser on your phone if this one doesn't let you edit posts, don't you think? :smallsmile:


So now I'm slightly less confused, but still there.
Can you then have three +2 enchanments in a +4 weapon?
-side, my players are epic, so I know about +15 nonsense sticks-

Kind of.

A +4 sword with three separate +2 enchantments is an epic weapon; it's total value on one side (either bonus or special abilities) is +6 or greater. The cost of the sword would be as a +10 sword, but using the arbitrary epic cost multiplier.

Yes, two +3 bonuses on a single weapon is priced at +6. I vaguely recall some sort of loophole though...


I know the sword doesn't kaboom by its self, I meant it isn't generally loot.
So the massive price jump is simply because +6 is more convenient to work with? That seems to imply how I had first understood this, that two +3's make a +6.

There's more to it that that.

An actual epic character at level 21 is basically starting a whole new game at level 1. These new epic things are just too big, mostly, to fit into regular play without causing problems. The epic price jump is so that wealth by level will still matter; otherwise, a 21dt level party could teleport wipe a dozen dragon hoards a day, scrounge billions, and end up with +21 to everything. The arbitrary shelf mitigates this (in theory).

The price boosts, the time increases, the arbitrary "you must be this tall to ride" is all to prevent sub-epic use of epic material. It's not supposed to just be bigger and more; it's a qualitative shift in the entire paradigm of the game.


Or it would be, if doing epic stuff around level 15 wasn't so easy...

[PraxisVetli]

Yeah, my phone is such crap, you don't even. I'll check it out once I've my comp.
See, I had always thought that say a player finds this supposed +4 masterwork sword. No enchantments, it's just super nice.
-can this even happen-
The player could the "spend" this +4 on enchanments, say a +2 and two +1's.
its now still a +4, but no longer simply masterwork.
BUT. If the wanted to add further enchanments, the number would go up.
Say the add "Keen," now its +5
Right?


I'm sorry if I seem dumb, I'm really just having some trouble here.

[Lachdan]

A magic weapon hast to be at least a weapon with an enhancement bonus of +1.
From there on you could enchant it either with a better enhancement bonus +X or with magical abilities.

So your flaming weapon +1 has an enhancement bonus of +1 (+1 damage, +1 to hit) and deals 1d6 fire damage. It is priced as a weapon +2, since the flaming property costs +1.
If you make the weapon vorpal this adds +5 to pricing, making it cost as much as an effective weapon +7. I still has only an enhancement bonus of +1, but deals fire damage and decapitates opponents.

You have to differenitate between the enhancement bonus (+X) and the effective pricing (enhancement +X plus cost of magical propertys).


See, I had always thought that say a player finds this supposed +4 masterwork sword. No enchantments, it's just super nice. A nonmagic weapon has no enhancement bonus +X. The weapon is either only a masterwork weapon or a magical weapon priced at +4 (and still masterwork), with specific magical propertys and at least an enhancement bonus of +1.

[papr_weezl8472]

Describing a sword as "+4" isn't a description of how much magic a sword has. It's a specific magical enchantment, like fiery or keen. A fiery sword deals +1d6 fire damage, a keen sword has a doubled critical range, and a +4 sword has +4 on to-hit and damage rolls.

If you take a +4 sword, and add Keen to it, the number doesn't go up. You've just taken a sword with one magical property (+4) and added another (Keen).

The confusion arises when it comes to describing the total enchantment of a weapon, for pricing purposes and so on. This uses the same language (+1, +2, etc.) as the enhancement bonus weapon property. It might help to think of them in different terms; rather than saying a Balor's +1 fiery vorpal sword is "+7 equivalent", we can say it's "rank 7" or something. It has 7 ranks of properties on it (+1 enhancement bonus is one, fiery is one, vorpal is five).

Weapons with eleven or more total ranks of properties, or with any property worth six or more ranks, are epic. A longsword with the 6-rank property "+6 enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls" and nothing else is an epic weapon (and would be described as a "+6 longsword"). A longsword with the 4-rank property "+4 enhancement", the two-rank property "holy", the two-rank property "wounding", and the two-rank property "flaming burst" is not an epic weapon (its total rank is only 10, and no one property is worth more than 5 ranks). This weapon would be described as a "+2 holy flaming burst longsword of wounding".

[eggynack]

A +4 sword with three separate +2 enchantments is an epic weapon; it's total value on one side (either bonus or special abilities) is +6 or greater. The cost of the sword would be as a +10 sword, but using the arbitrary epic cost multiplier.

Yes, two +3 bonuses on a single weapon is priced at +6. I vaguely recall some sort of loophole though...

That's not really an accurate depiction of magic weapon costing. A weapon isn't made epic by one side or the other costing +6. A weapon is made epic by a single enhancement costing +6. Thus, your +4 weapon with three +2's would be a normal magic weapon.

[Segev]

Indeed. In fact, your +1 flaming burst sonic burst frost burst caustic burst longsword is a +9-equivalent, but is non-epic because no one tag is +6 or greater.

(It does 1d8+1+1d6 each of fire, cold, and acid damage + 1d4 sonic damage each hit, and on a crit does +1d10 each fire, cold, acid, and sonic damage.)

[PraxisVetli]

Well, I'm starting to get it.
I guess I've doing this radically wrong, so thanks!

[Chronos]

This seems to be a very common area of confusion, so you're not alone, at least.

papr_weezl8472, I like the idea of describing the pricing in terms of "ranks". That might indeed help ease the confusion.