For all the , How to be a Paladin , when teammates are not holy like me

[CyberThread]

Have your local wizard or cleric enchant rose tinted glasses, and give them to you as a gift. An they would be very offended if you refused to wear them, after they put so much effort and time into it, (guilt trip the pally ).


Have the glasses make everything the team mates do, do a soft enchantment on the pally, so he can self reason how an act might be within his code of behavior, but don't make the enchantment to strong that he may count for an atonement spell for being under control of someone else.


If the teammate does something truly outrageous, make the act to "powerful" for the roes tinted glasses to work. Therefore forcing the paladin to act.

[Yuki Akuma]

"Don't be the fun police".

That's really it.

Alternatively, PrC into Grey Guard, or see if your DM will let you use the Redeemer archetype from Pathfinder.

Mind controlling a Paladin is probably not a good idea for a party to do.

[Hyena]

Rules for being a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party are short and simple.

1. Don't be a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party.

I am yet to meet someone, who says "I've played a paladin in the evil party and redeemed everyone by my noble example". Instead, I all the time read stuff like "I'm the paladin in the party, so every time they do something evil, I am conviniently absent" or "The party murdered me in my sleep, because I said that selling souls of puppies to the Devil may be morally ambigious".

[QuintonBeck]

I had a paladin choke-slam the rogue up against the bar wall when she tried to pickpocket someone he had just paid. (He atoned for it afterwards of course, but she had been pushing him for a while) After that the rogue was much more careful about doing anything. It helped that she was the only CN party member, the other being a CG bard who helped keep the Pally from going to smite crazy but otherwise sided with him so it kept things balanced.

I can't imagine a paladin really working out in an all CNevil party though. Both of those extremes are usually rather annoying if they try to stomp all over everyone. It's best in my experience if you're going to have one of one type to have the other to balance it out, but if it starts tilting in one direction you're in a pickle.

[Jon_Dahl]

The PCs in my group killed a crazed NPC fighter that attacked them in an abandoned tavern. The rogue of the group took his possession, and the paladin didn't say anything when the city guard came and asked what had happened. They would've delivered the deceased's possession to her elderly mother.

I must say that I was pretty disappointed as a DM, and I wasn't even trying to make him fall. The idea was that the city guard would've liked the paladin for asking the rogue to return the possession at once.

He didn't fall, but after that no one has played a paladin.

[Yuki Akuma]

The PCs in my group killed a crazed NPC fighter that attacked them in an abandoned tavern. The rogue of the group took his possession, and the paladin didn't say anything when the city guard came and asked what had happened. They would've delivered the deceased's possession to her elderly mother.

I must say that I was pretty disappointed as a DM, and I wasn't even trying to make him fall. The idea was that the city guard would've liked the paladin for asking the rogue to return the possession at once.

He didn't fall, but after that no one has played a paladin.

Writing a plot point that involves one PC screwing over another is a great way to cause hurt feelings.

[Jon_Dahl]

Writing a plot point that involves one PC screwing over another is a great way to cause hurt feelings.

My players have never got upset about such things. Intra-party conflicts are just fun for them (and for me) and they have killed each other's PCs more than once. Actually once a PC was ordered to hunt down another PC, which he did and he executed him on the spot. We still laugh about it.

With more touchy players I would never do something like that. The rogue PC enjoyed getting caught red-handed and playing innocent. It was fun and I'd do it again.

[Gavinfoxx]

Step 1:

Ignore all writeups of the paladin code as they exist, and homebrew a code between the Player of the Paladin and the GM, for the paladin character to follow.

Here's a code I homebrewed. Following this should greatly help the Paladin issues:

-Show kindness to children and others that are weak
-Never allow the weak to be the victim of the strong
-Defend hearth and home, family and friends, stranger and ally, and especially defend innocents
-Once given, a paladin's word is a solemn contract
-Refrain from abusing or overusing intoxicants
-When possible, work for and give to charity
-It is an unspeakable act to deny any soul its rightful afterlife
-Never use lethal poison
-Respect life, even that of the foe, and show quarter if possible
-Respect the terms of an honourable and fair duel
-Never willfully commit an evil act, and combat evil whenever possible.
-Seek justice tempered with mercy when combating evil
-Use power to aid and help others, except towards evil ends. Do not seek out power simply to have power.
-Be courteous in all you do, and seek to never be crude
-Be humble before the forces of light and good
-Uphold virtuous laws whenever possible
-Lead by example
-Respect and hold dear the trust that others place in you
-Be heroically brave in pursuit of goodness
-Show kindness towards guests
-Care for and be kind towards your mount

[Coidzor]

My players have never got upset about such things. Intra-party conflicts are just fun for them (and for me) and they have killed each other's PCs more than once. Actually once a PC was ordered to hunt down another PC, which he did and he executed him on the spot. We still laugh about it.

With more touchy players I would never do something like that. The rogue PC enjoyed getting caught red-handed and playing innocent. It was fun and I'd do it again.

I think you just answered why Paladins don't really interest your group anymore.

[danzibr]

I am yet to meet someone, who says "I've played a paladin in the evil party and redeemed everyone by my noble example".
I'd like to see this.

[Doomboy911]

Rules for being a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party are short and simple.

1. Don't be a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party.

I am yet to meet someone, who says "I've played a paladin in the evil party and redeemed everyone by my noble example". Instead, I all the time read stuff like "I'm the paladin in the party, so every time they do something evil, I am conviniently absent" or "The party murdered me in my sleep, because I said that selling souls of puppies to the Devil may be morally ambigious".

What about selling demon souls to puppies?

Honestly in my time as a paladin I didn't see myself as a stickler for the rules. I had my character come in as everyone friend because they were my friends. I was the tank for the group and handled most fights with a single strike. (From the guy who loves barbarians paladins are cooler). The paladin is sort of the dm's ideal player, he stops the party from just being a violent bunch of idiots who torture anyone who doesn't answer them immediately.

Seriously think about how most parties act they're hardly heroes more of terrible people who end up on top in the end, the paladin is great because he makes them better as players. Given the choice between "chaotic neutral" player or force for good I'll take force every time.

[Coidzor]

I'd like to see this.

It's quite the logistical challenge. You have to have a group that wants to play along with this idea pretty much from the get-go and keep from having the usual fractious nature of people from tripping you up...

And avoid having someone say "Y'know, that seems like a whole lot of work for not very much payoff in the end, why don't we just either play a villainous campaign or a heroic one?"

[Zanos]

Rules for being a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party are short and simple.

1. Don't be a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party.

I am yet to meet someone, who says "I've played a paladin in the evil party and redeemed everyone by my noble example". Instead, I all the time read stuff like "I'm the paladin in the party, so every time they do something evil, I am conviniently absent" or "The party murdered me in my sleep, because I said that selling souls of puppies to the Devil may be morally ambigious".

In my experience it's more frequently been the Paladin being unreasonable than the rest of the party.

[CyberThread]

meh sort of irritated that only one post actually talks about my idea.

[Maginomicon]

You could also ask your GM to read my Real Alignments Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=283341). There's a comprehensive section in there all about paladins. Adopting Real Alignments would allow you to act the holy man without being hamstrung by it.

[Sith_Happens]

meh sort of irritated that only one post actually talks about my idea.

Because it's a bad idea.

[Doomboy911]

meh sort of irritated that only one post actually talks about my idea.

Your idea.


Have your local wizard or cleric enchant rose tinted glasses, and give them to you as a gift. An they would be very offended if you refused to wear them, after they put so much effort and time into it, (guilt trip the pally ).


Have the glasses make everything the team mates do, do a soft enchantment on the pally, so he can self reason how an act might be within his code of behavior, but don't make the enchantment to strong that he may count for an atonement spell for being under control of someone else.


If the teammate does something truly outrageous, make the act to "powerful" for the roes tinted glasses to work. Therefore forcing the paladin to act.


Ok first off didn't they have that in Sabrina the teenage witch? As in right there http://youtu.be/0qbnWzUKYLw?t=15m2s that episode that moment. Good episode I remember it because I am King Nerdicus and I've seen everything a couple dozen times.

Second off when a member of the party has to be mind controlled to work better with the party we've got a problem.

Third what enchantment makes whatever happens around you seem peachy keen? Is it expensive? I'd like to put it on everything and everyone. I mean c'mon everyone thinks the world is going great and they just have to keep some shades on. Sign me up they even look a little like Simon's from Gurren Lagann.

Fourth: No one has said much about your idea because like every other idea in the universe there are better ideas out there. Here let me quickly rattle off a couple super quick.

1. Paladin doesn't hang out with party of jerks.
2. Paladin hangs out with paladins,clerics and monks of similar alignment.
3. Party stops killing more people than Ted Nugent at a furry convention.
4.Party makes rational decisions.
5. Dm holds party to the alignment they have chosen. Chaotic good don't kill whenever they want to. Chaotic Neutral does both good and evil things not just evil.
6. Party doesn't constantly fiddle with the paladin trying to make him fall. How about the paladin makes the Monk go a day without medititating or the cleric without praying to his god, perhaps stop the nerd wizard from reading his book.
7.If a paladin's god has put him in a place where he lacks the charm, wisdom, or intellect to find a better solution than his god should not punish him when he makes a mistake. They have made people to be their paladins they will make mistakes but they're paladins they'll just get back up and try again.

There I talked about your idea. Talk about our ideas now. You started a conversation now let it flow.

[MukkTB]

The Rogue doesn't steal from the party. The Paladin doesn't keep tabs 24/7 on the Rogue. If he sees something he doesn't like he can roleplay some scolding. Then he casts atonement later for working with less than savory people.

If the group wants to eat babies while the torturer and his victim entertain them, then the Paladin isn't part of that group. Hes a blackguard or he's playing something else. If you try to mash things together you get PVP.

A skilled group of players will design a pool of PCs that mesh well with each other, synergize mechanically and with regards to fluff.

[ArcturusV]

The PCs in my group killed a crazed NPC fighter that attacked them in an abandoned tavern. The rogue of the group took his possession, and the paladin didn't say anything when the city guard came and asked what had happened. They would've delivered the deceased's possession to her elderly mother.

I must say that I was pretty disappointed as a DM, and I wasn't even trying to make him fall. The idea was that the city guard would've liked the paladin for asking the rogue to return the possession at once.

He didn't fall, but after that no one has played a paladin..

That kinda highlights a point in my mind, a point that only happens really when I see Paladins (Or other Awful Good types) in a game. One is that without a Paladin, or similar type (Maybe a Vow of Poverty person, or a Monk playing Lawful Good and trying to be Holier than Thou), no one really questions the looting of the berserk fighter who started a confrontation with the party. Not like you went and murdered some national hero and then added Insult by stealing his Order of the Empire medallion off his corpse. But somehow if there IS a Paladin or something the SOP of taking stuff off people who can no longer use it becomes a thing that isn't supposed to be done.

... that and without a Paladin (Or similar type) in the game you almost never see the Elderly Mother left behind, or the hungry children of the slain father, etc. Just something I don't really see coming up. It usually feels like a deliberate "Screw you" to the guy. I mean yes, people have families and what not. Not like random thugs just congeal out of gutter slime. But honestly how often is Momma Thug gonna know who killed her son. Gonna even know her son was a thug operating in some area. And is going to be close to this son who ran off to be a thug? I mean she might be sad to hear he died, sure. But I doubt it'd normally go beyond that. Unless a Paladin is involved. Then it becomes a "lets twist the knife in that there wound" thing.

I mean that might not be the case. But it usually is in my experience. I mean do you have the Druid being told that the Gnoll he ate while he was Bear Cavving was some loving father and had a litter of good hearted gnolls behind and that looting the Gnoll is going to make sure that they don't survive the lean winter? Probably not.

[Doomboy911]

The Rogue doesn't steal from the party. The Paladin doesn't keep tabs 24/7 on the Rogue. If he sees something he doesn't like he can roleplay some scolding. Then he casts atonement later for working with less than savory people.

If the group wants to eat babies while the torturer and his victim entertain them, then the Paladin isn't part of that group. Hes a blackguard or he's playing something else. If you try to mash things together you get PVP.

A skilled group of players will design a pool of PCs that mesh well with each other, synergize mechanically and with regards to fluff.

Sir I'd like to fist bump you through the internet.

I actually challenged a group of player by telling them to play a group of fighters and nothing else. Told them to figure it out and work together. They're doing pretty fine.

On the other hand I was part of a campaign that wanted us to be all level 1 and each of us being best friends since childhood. I didn't know any of these people and found it quite difficult and sort of lost interest. I didn't want to be part of this group so I didn't.

[JungleChicken]

I always pictured Paladins as big picture kinds of people. Sure mundane evil exists in the world. It's the human condition. You strive to be better than that and lead by example for all of the masses. It's the truly evil that you smite. murderers, conjurers of demons, monsters that are by their very nature evil. So you have a thief in your party that stole a key, it let you into the necromancers tower didn't it? That sorcerer whose flings less than godly spells around, he's making the world a better place isn't he?

[zlefin]

Rules for being a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party are short and simple.

1. Don't be a paladin in the evil or chaotic neutral party.

I am yet to meet someone, who says "I've played a paladin in the evil party and redeemed everyone by my noble example".

it's easy, play a paladin of erythnul, and show them the TRUE way to do it, those pansies :)


hmm, actually, playing a paladin of hextor trying to convert a chaotic evil party might be interesting.

[Segev]

That kinda highlights a point in my mind, a point that only happens really when I see Paladins (Or other Awful Good types) in a game. One is that without a Paladin, or similar type (Maybe a Vow of Poverty person, or a Monk playing Lawful Good and trying to be Holier than Thou), no one really questions the looting of the berserk fighter who started a confrontation with the party. Not like you went and murdered some national hero and then added Insult by stealing his Order of the Empire medallion off his corpse. But somehow if there IS a Paladin or something the SOP of taking stuff off people who can no longer use it becomes a thing that isn't supposed to be done.

... that and without a Paladin (Or similar type) in the game you almost never see the Elderly Mother left behind, or the hungry children of the slain father, etc. Just something I don't really see coming up. It usually feels like a deliberate "Screw you" to the guy. I mean yes, people have families and what not. Not like random thugs just congeal out of gutter slime. But honestly how often is Momma Thug gonna know who killed her son. Gonna even know her son was a thug operating in some area. And is going to be close to this son who ran off to be a thug? I mean she might be sad to hear he died, sure. But I doubt it'd normally go beyond that. Unless a Paladin is involved. Then it becomes a "lets twist the knife in that there wound" thing.

I mean that might not be the case. But it usually is in my experience. I mean do you have the Druid being told that the Gnoll he ate while he was Bear Cavving was some loving father and had a litter of good hearted gnolls behind and that looting the Gnoll is going to make sure that they don't survive the lean winter? Probably not.In my experience, this shows up whenever the party has somebody whose alignment is important to them in a role-playing sense. These situations allow you to distinguish your PC in some way. An LG cleric, rogue, or wizard is just as troubled by them as a Paladin, generally speaking. Heck, most of those described would trouble an NG or even a CG character.

I think the reason it "comes up" so often with a Paladin is that people talk about it, because while a cleric who "loses" his L or G might feel the DM is being judgmental, he's still able to play his character how HE sees fit, and a wizard who the DM decides is TN when the wizard is pretty sure he's playing CG can still shrug and say "whatever." It doesn't change his capacity to play his character.

Paladins are designed to highlight these situations precisely because they are so pure they wouldn't step out of line at all. By design, therefore, if they do, it's called out mechanically.

I don't see a real problem with this, except where the DM is deliberately setting things up to "make him fall" and feels clever by creating "no win" scenarios. It gets worse when the DM feels so clever that he doesn't let the Paladin point out the flaws in the premises.

But again, "elderly mother left behind" and "the evil guy's now-orphan children" and even concerns about taking the stuff from a "crazed fighter" whose next of kin are at hand come up, in my experience, even without Paladins, so long as there are Lawful and Good people in the party whose alignments are important to them. And by that, I really mean in a role-playing sense.

[killem2]

Dragon #310, look at paladin variants, choose said alignment that matches party, follow your code.

[Doomboy911]

Dragon #310, look at paladin variants, choose said alignment that matches party, follow your code.

Twenty internet points to Killem2 for solving the paladin issue the quickest.

I still want to know what enchantment makes it look like everyone is acting super nice . Seriously most broken enchantment ever.

[CyberThread]

Well as it is a custom magical item, you take a guess.


I would say geas would work as a required spell in crafting the item though, and suggestion.

[Sith_Happens]

Well as it is a custom magical item, you take a guess.


I would say geas would work as a required spell in crafting the item though, and suggestion.

I'd be more likely to peg Charm Person as the prerequisite:


[The subject] perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way.

So that plus the closest applicable Phantasm for completeness's sake.

[killem2]

Twenty internet points to Killem2 for solving the paladin issue the quickest.

I still want to know what enchantment makes it look like everyone is acting super nice . Seriously most broken enchantment ever.

:smallredface:


Dragon can sometimes save the day. :biggrin:

[Maginomicon]

:smallredface:


Dragon can sometimes save the day. :biggrin:
Um... not to steal anyone's thunder, but... the exact texts of those paladin codes of conduct are given verbatim in the Real Alignments post I referred to earlier.

[Vedhin]

I am yet to meet someone, who says "I've played a paladin in the evil party and redeemed everyone by my noble example". Instead, I all the time read stuff like "I'm the paladin in the party, so every time they do something evil, I am conviniently absent" or "The party murdered me in my sleep, because I said that selling souls of puppies to the Devil may be morally ambigious".


I'd like to see this.

I have a friend that pulled this off once. Essentially, the game was focused on the roleplaying aspect, with mechanics falling by the wayside. Eventually, all of us players decided that their characters would have been swayed by the Paladin's heroic actions and such. Of course, it helps that nobody was playing a "kick puppies, mug old ladies trying to cross the street, and other random acts of evil" character.

[ArcturusV]

Maybe Segev. But I don't see it happen when I have something like... an Exalted status Barbarian in the party. Nor do I see it happen when I have something like a Cleric or Druid who needs to maintain alignment. Players don't mess with those. No one goes "Ooo, that Barbarian has Nymph's Kiss! Let's be evil and mess with him!". Least not that I've ever seen. Nor does anyone create "no win" scenarios for the Neutral Good Cleric of Pelor. But Paladins (And variants), and sometimes really restrictive PrCs like Shintao Monk will get people trying to engineer a fall.