Manufactured, natural, and unarmed attacks questions

[kulosle]

i have a few questions and i'll try to number them to make it easier to read

So i've read the manufactured weapon entry in the monster manual, and the natural attack entry as well. I'm a little confused on how combining them works.

1)If i want to attack with a manufactured weapon, and have it be my primary weapon, do i get all my iterative attacks followed by one of each natural attack or is it only one of the weapon and natural attacks?

2)Can i call my unarmed attack my primary weapon even though it is not a manufatured or natural weapon? What if i'm wearing a gauntlet (because i'm assuming a gauntlet is a manufactured weapon)?

3)Can a monk use a full attack action to attack with his unarmed strike and his natural weapons to activate flurry of blows? Because i'm still attacking with my fists and i'm still using a full attack action.

i know some of this might fall under "Wizards never decided what unarmed attacks are," but i'll take generally excepted house rules as well.

[Fouredged Sword]

QUESTION 1

When you make a full attack you may do one of two things

You may

A - Make a full set of iterative attacks (bab, bab-5, bab-10 ect) with a manufactured weapon (or unarmed strike because it's special) and then make one attack with EACH natural weapon you have (so 2 claws if you have 2 claw attacks, or two claws and a bite if you have two claws and a bite) at bab-5.

or

B - Make ONE attack at full BAB with a Single natural weapon and then ONE attack with each of the remaining natural weapons you have, and NO attacks with manufactured weapons.

QUESTION 2

Unarmed strikes are considered a light weapons for most effects, and is wielded like a manufactured weapon. It's weird, but that is the way it is. It can be used to make iterative attacks and cannot be added as a natural attack to a full attack.

QUESTION 3

"When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham)."

You cannot both use flurry of blow AND make attacks with natural weapons. If you have a claw or slam attack, look up the "Beast Strike" feat to do cool things with unarmed strikes.

[Krazzman]

Adding to that Unarmed strikes are indeed weird in that.

They are considered Light Weapons and you use them like manufactured weapons but stuff like Improved Natural Attack works on them.

[Darrin]

1)If i want to attack with a manufactured weapon, and have it be my primary weapon, do i get all my iterative attacks followed by one of each natural attack or is it only one of the weapon and natural attacks?


If you want to mix manufactured with natural weapons, your manufactured weapon becomes your primary weapon. You get iterative attacks with your manufactured weapon. Any natural weapon that is not currently occupied with doing something else (such as wielding a manufactured weapon) then becomes a secondary natural attack (-5 attack penalty, 1/2 Str bonus on damage).



2)Can i call my unarmed attack my primary weapon even though it is not a manufatured or natural weapon? What if i'm wearing a gauntlet (because i'm assuming a gauntlet is a manufactured weapon)?


Yes, you can choose an unarmed attack to be your primary weapon. You get iterative attacks with it, as per the PHB p. 139: "Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon". In most other situations, unarmed strikes are considered natural weapons (mostly for spell effects, such as magic weapon/fang, and feats like Improved Natural Attack).



3)Can a monk use a full attack action to attack with his unarmed strike and his natural weapons to activate flurry of blows? Because i'm still attacking with my fists and i'm still using a full attack action.


No, you can't mix unarmed strikes with other natural weapons in a Flurry of Blows. Claws, bites, etc. are not considered "special monk weapons", so they can't be included as part of the Flurry. However, the rules on Flurry aren't entirely clear if adding secondary natural attacks *after* the Flurry attacks still counts as part of the Flurry. To be on the safe side, my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15034585) recommends that you assume the restrictions from Flurry apply to all your attacks made that round.

If you're trying to mix manufactured, unarmed, and natural weapons into a Flurry, then there may be some work-arounds. Unorthodox Flurry feat (Dragon Compendium) can make any light weapon (including a natural weapon) count as a special monk weapon. The Scorpion Kama (Magic Item Compendium) can be used as your primary weapon in a Flurry, allowing you to use your unarmed strike as an offhand attack. If you could tell me more about what you're trying to accomplish, I could give you more specific advice.

[kulosle]

Where does it say that they are light weapons? so i have the source for future references.

Also i thought only monks can use improved natural attack on their unarmed strike because their unarmed strike because of this line. "A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects taht enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spell)."

I'm looking at the oz warlock/bard build and trying to figure out whats the most efficient number of attacks i can get. But i was also just confused about those things and wanted them cleared up for general purposes.

Also i'm confused about the rapid strike feat fron draconomicon. It gives a pair of natural attack, in this case claws, an extra attack at -5. But it doesn't say when you can use them. Like during a standard attack or if i have to use them as my primary or if it has to be a full attack action.

[Darrin]

Where does it say that they are light weapons? so i have the source for future references.


For unarmed strikes, PHB p. 139:

"Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on)."

For natural weapons, PHB p. 102, under the Weapon Finesse feat:

"Natural weapons are always considered light weapons."



Also i thought only monks can use improved natural attack on their unarmed strike because their unarmed strike because of this line. "A monk's unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects taht enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons (such as the magic fang and magic weapon spell)."


That monk ability allows the monk to benefit from magic weapon and other spells/effects that normally only affect manufactured weapons. A non-monk unarmed strike is still considered a natural weapon, as per the magic weapon spell:

"You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang)."

(Emphasis added.)

If an unarmed strike is a valid target for magic fang, then it's a valid target for Improved Natural Attack.


Also i'm confused about the rapid strike feat fron draconomicon. It gives a pair of natural attack, in this case claws, an extra attack at -5. But it doesn't say when you can use them. Like during a standard attack or if i have to use them as my primary or if it has to be a full attack action.

I am also really confused about Rapid Strike, since it doesn't specify if you get the extra attack at just BAB -5 with no other penalties, or if you have to add an additional -5 penalty for a secondary attack.

As far as whether or not you only get the extra attack on a full attack, or if you can get it on a standard attack... that's not clear either, but I don't see anything that specifically over-rules the general rule of "you can only get multiple attacks when using a full-round attack". As far as I know, only Snap Kick and Planar Touchstone: Oxyrhynchus are exceptions to that rule.

[kulosle]

So by RAW does rapid strike just give me an extra attack whenever i attack with the chosen weapon?

[Feytalist]

So by RAW does rapid strike just give me an extra attack whenever i attack with the chosen weapon?

As Darrin mentioned: unclear, but probably no.