After the charm wears off...

[Cheiromancer]

...How does the target react to the caster?

A charm person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) spell basically make someone your best friend. After the spell wears off, does the good impression linger, or do they feel violated?

My groups have had a strong tendency to treat charm person as if it were evil - BoVD evil. Slipping drugs in a girl's drink evil. Is that the way everyone plays it? Or is it like a good diplomacy roll- you've complimented someone/laughed at their jokes/bought them a drink and they are inclined to continue being friendly the next time they see you?

[Lord Vukodlak]

...How does the target react to the caster?

A charm person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) spell basically make someone your best friend. After the spell wears off, does the good impression linger, or do they feel violated?

My groups have had a strong tendency to treat charm person as if it were evil - BoVD evil. Slipping drugs in a girl's drink evil. Is that the way everyone plays it? Or is it like a good diplomacy roll- you've complimented someone/laughed at their jokes/bought them a drink and they are inclined to continue being friendly the next time they see you?

Unlike dominate the target won't necessarily remember being charmed. So a lot would depend on what you did with them while they were charmed but by default they should return whatever attitude they held before.

If you used Charm to get out of being questioned by some guards they'll probably feel sheepish for having been fast talked by a con man but not necessarily hostile to you.

On the other hand if you charmed one into tackling the other so you could make your escape. He'll probably figure out he was under an enchantment once the spell expires.

[Feytalist]

Depends if the target realises it's been charmed, I'd guess.

Charm isn't dominate. you're not taking over some person's actions. You're just making them like you (this raises many other moral issues, but regardless). After the spell wears off, the target maybe just realises you're not all that great. It's very possible to change your mind about someone after you've spent some time with them.

So the target probably just thinks you're charming (heheh), and then you're suddenly not.

[Segev]

The question of whether they know they were Charmed can go back to a more basic one: do people know when they've made (or at least attempted) a Will save?

Take a Stilled, Silent Charm Person (or a Psion using Psionic Charm on people who don't notice the display). Let's say it's used twice, once each on a pair of guards. One fails his save, and the other makes it. Do they know anything just happened? Either of them? Both? Neither?

If they know something touched their minds, the Charmed guy might be glad it did (or else he'd be mad at his new best friend), but both might be irritated afterwards, and the one who made his save might be LESS friendly after you try it. If they don't know, then the one who made his save is merely as unimpressed as he was before, and the one who failed thinks you're awesome.


But, one other question: Mechanically, does Charming somebody set them to (at least) Friendly, in Diplomacy terms, or does it act entirely separate from that scale? Can you use Diplomacy to improve their opinion of you still more?

[Feytalist]

But, one other question: Mechanically, does Charming somebody set them to (at least) Friendly, in Diplomacy terms, or does it act entirely separate from that scale? Can you use Diplomacy to improve their opinion of you still more?


This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly).

Seems pretty clear. So if the target is already friendly, the spell does nothing. And you can't Diplomance someone and then push him over the edge (so to speak) with charm person.

[Lord Haart]

As far as i remember (that matter was once brought up), by default people do realise that something tried to affect them if they succesfully made a Will save, but never (not instantly, not after the spell ends) directly realise something was up if they failed it. Of course, waving your hands in air and mumbling something is as close as it gets to a dead give-away. Yay psionics.

Of course, this rule (despite being in SRD) is both near-unknown and not quite cool, so in my practical experience it's usually played as "no mindhacking sense in either case", unless a player is asking for this rule to be dug up by going overboard.

[Segev]

Seems pretty clear. So if the target is already friendly, the spell does nothing. And you can't Diplomance someone and then push him over the edge (so to speak).

Yes, but can you use Diplomacy on a Charmed person to push them from Friendly to Fanatic?


Also, something that comes up in the game I play a Telepath whose main offensive power is Psionic Charm: What does a Charmed enemy think when they suddenly are Friendly and we were JUST fighting? (The difficulty of Charming somebody in such circumstances is represented by the +4 they get on the save, so I figure that there can't be further penalty, but it's tricky to figure out how to even recommend to the DM how this might be played. And he seems...willing to work with it, but unsure how. I can't really blame him.)

[Friv]

Probably if an enemy is suddenly friendly, while still Charmed he's going to decide one of two things:

1) He just realized something about you that makes him not want to fight. Maybe this isn't really your fault, or maybe he thinks he can talk you down.

2) You just Charmed him! And why wouldn't you? You don't want to fight him! Someone could get killed that way!


As far as after the fact goes, if I were in a fight to the death with someone, and they used magic to make me friendly, and then they left, and it wore off? I'd probably be pretty happy to not have gotten killed, but not any more or less friendly towards the guy I was trying to kill earlier (unless I have a strong "personal strength only" honor code, I guess). A Charm does a lot less damage than a sword through the gut by default.

[Lord Haart]

Yes, but can you use Diplomacy on a Charmed person to push them from Friendly to Fanatic?I see no reason as to why not.



Also, something that comes up in the game I play a Telepath whose main offensive power is Psionic Charm: What does a Charmed enemy think when they suddenly are Friendly and we were JUST fighting? (The difficulty of Charming somebody in such circumstances is represented by the +4 they get on the save, so I figure that there can't be further penalty, but it's tricky to figure out how to even recommend to the DM how this might be played. And he seems...willing to work with it, but unsure how. I can't really blame him.)That's easy, since diplomacy scale is linear. By becoming friendly, he automatically stops being hostile (to you, at least; you'd still have to convince him not to slaughter your teammates while making sure that you, his friend, will be as unharmed as possible and will either be "accidentally" provided with a chance to run away or captured alive and have his support in face of his superiors/teammates).

[Feytalist]

Another problem to consider is your allies. Unless you suddenly shout at them "don't attack that guy!" right as you cast the spell, if they continue to threaten him, it breaks the charm.

'Course, the charmed guy might continue attacking your allies anyway. He's just your friend, after all.

[Segev]

Good thoughts, thanks!

The one that I have avoided, but keep wanting to use because I'm a logical person at my core and prefer simply using it to explain things and play off people's preferences (i.e., if I can point out how things are to our mutual advantage logically, we should be able to work out a mutually workable solution), is something along the lines of...

"Well, see, I had to Charm you to get you to not be a jerk. I would prefer to be friends all the time, but when this wears off, you'll be back to trying to get me and my friends killed. I know you don't want to do that. So, how can we work something out so this doesn't happen?"

Basically, work out in advance agreements for how to treat them when not Charmed while keeping my party safe. This tends to come up with goblins which we wind up having to capture because if we let them go, they will bring their whole warren down on us when the Charm wears off.

Assuming the critter is not too stupid to understand the concept, would "Friendly, for now" cause them to agree to inconvenience when they won't be Friendly anymore in order to keep their current-Friend safe?

Heck, would a Charmed person agree to willingly fail the save against a re-application of Charm, if they knew their condition?

[Feytalist]

Sure, a charmed person could agree to anything. After the charm wears off though, nothing is stopping them going "sod that" and ignoring everything agreed to. Especially if they're not Friendly anymore. People are strange like that.



Heck, would a Charmed person agree to willingly fail the save against a re-application of Charm, if they knew their condition?

I've wondered this as well. My thoughts are along the lines of a bluff ("hold still while I cast this really beneficial Enchantment - honest - on you") and then some shenanigans to disguise the spell in some way.

[Segev]

Well, the "agree to stuff based on you turning hateful and trying to kill us" line of reasoning usually involves getting their cooperation in tying them up or locking them in a cage or - as already mentioned - submitting to another Charm, knowing what they're submitting to.


It also says that Charmed people won't do things to harm their other friends (and even to do things against their general nature takes a successful opposed Charisma check). Would "use this magic item on your buddies to make them like me, too" be "harm?" If they're normally a bit duplicitous, would this work in your favor compared to having to win a Charisma check against a more honorable Charmed 'ally?'

Heck, if you try an opposed Charisma check and lose, does that make them angry at you, or are they Friendly but just unwilling to do THAT favor?

[Yuki Akuma]

If you fail the Charisma check, they're still friendly, because they're still under the effects of the spell. They'll just refuse to do that favour.

[Fouredged Sword]

Then there is always the time you charm that assassin. He just shrugs and states apologetically "It is a job my friend. You will be missed"

Remember, charm will not force someone to do something that will get them killed. Guards who let people through the gate they shouldn't get a date with the gallows. Charm makes people be nice, it doesn't make them behave not in their own interest.

[Segev]

Technically, "Friendly" does mean "will take risks to help you." If it's likely the guard won't be caught, or if the Assassin isn't, himself, facing death if he fails to kill you, you can likely get them to help out.


So, though... if you can Charm somebody to Friendly, then Dipolmance them to Fanatic...

Can you use Psionic Charm + Telempathic Projection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telempathicProjection.htm) to auto-Fanatic them? Particularly if you can use Charm to make them willingly submit to the latter power.


Interestingly, if you've got the skills to put to use, Telempathic Projection is a better power than Psionic Charm, at least at levels 1 and 2, because it affects anything with a mind (rather than just humanoids), and can even be used with Handle Animal if needs be. (At level 3, Psionic Charm can be augmented to work on animals. Won't give the +4, though.)

[Hytheter]

Technically, "Friendly" does mean "will take risks to help you."
No, friendly is "wishes you well". "Will take risks to help you" is helpful.
Yes, but can you use Diplomacy on a Charmed person to push them from Friendly to Fanatic?
No, because you have to make him helpful first.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm not sure you can push it to fanatic. They are 'treated' like friendly. They do not become friendly. And if they are already fanatic? They would still for the duration of the spell be treated as friendly.

Its like the thing where the darkness spell can make an area lighter if its dark enough to start with.

[Feytalist]

No, because you have to make him helpful first.

Not necessary. With a large enough Diplomacy result, you can take someone from Hostile all the way to Fanatic.

[Segev]

Ah, of course. I keep getting "Friendly" and "Helpful" swapped around in my head for some reason.

So, then, would Telempathic Projection on a Charmed creature automatically make him Helpful?

After that, the +4 to Diplomacy also granted by Telempathic Projection can add to an effort to make a fanatic out of them. DC 50 is still hard, though. A Telepath really trying to exploit this would want Mindlink (for bypassing language barriers), Diplomacy maxed out, a psicrystal granting +3 to diplomacy, and probably Skill Focus in Diplomacy.

Looking at at least a 2nd level Telepath to have all three powers, and he may as well also have Empathy for another +2 insight bonus.

5 ranks + 3 focus + 3 psicrystal + 4 Telempathic Projection + 2 Empathy is still only +17. Not high enough to make a fanatic yet.


Though... Hypnotism makes creatures 2 steps more friendly. So a sorcerer with Charm Person and Hypnotism could Charm something and then Hypnotize it to make it a fanatic automatically.

Even after the Hypnotism wore off, one specific request would remain at "fanatic" level of reaction.

[Hytheter]

Not necessary. With a large enough Diplomacy result, you can take someone from Hostile all the way to Fanatic.

Oh yeah, I forgot you can straight up skip stages.

That's what I get for being a smartass I guess. :p

[Maginomicon]

I recommend you use this house rule (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) written up by our lord and master (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?u=14856). ;p

The new Diplomacy skill offers a built-in definition for the sometimes-difficult-to-adjudicate charm person spell: a charmed creature is treated as having a Friendly relationship to the caster (-7 to Diplomacy DC), which replaces any previous relationship modifier. Thus, by charming an enemy, the DC drops from +5 to -7, a decrease of 12. The caster can now talk the creature into anything this improved relationship allows, without every NPC being wrapped around the caster's finger because of a 1st level spell. Note, however, that this will make the spell far more useful to a bard, who has Diplomacy as a class skill and has a high Charisma, than to a wizard. You might like that-maybe the bard should be better at charming people-but if not, I suggest allowing the caster of charm person to use his or her caster level in place of their Diplomacy skill check for that creature only. Thus, the DC is still affected by the Risk/Reward modifier and the (newly improved) Relationship modifier, but the check is either a Diplomacy check or a straight caster level check.