3.5 crunch too much. Next work?

[TheDarkSaint]

I'm finding in my online game that the 3.5 crunch, while lovely for a group of 4, isn't working for a group of 6. combat rounds take too long. I was thinking about porting over to D&D Next, or maybe Dungeon World.

Anyone have experience with these and the level of crunch involved?

[Person_Man]

Yes, 3.5 is a crunch heavy game. Combat can take a while, depending on the choices the DM and players make. If you're interesting in sticking with 3.5 but making combat faster, here are some house rules:

1) Don't roll Initiative. Players go first in order of highest Dex to lowest Dex (and they can roll off once at the start of each session if there are ties). And players should sit in Initiative order, so you can just go around the table clockwise or counter clockwise. Then enemies go. If the party is Surprised, then enemies go first, then players. If a player isn't ready to go when it's their turn, they are skipped until the end of the round. On paper this feels like its going to be a world shaking change. But in practice, I've found that it's not that important unless you're playing a high level game where a single spell ends combat.

2) Eliminate fiddly bonuses and penalties. This includes the bonuses for Flanking, Charge, higher ground, etc, but also the penalties for Iterative attacks, Two Weapon Fighting, Rapid Shot, etc. If players don't have to do math, and instead just roll the dice, things go a lot faster. Only keep big important bonuses and penalties, like Power Attack.

3) Roll all attacks at the same time. Then let the player apply them to whatever monsters (within their reach/range) they want. Compare it to the monster's AC, then roll damage if appropriate. If a monster dies before all attacks are applied, just shift the "wasted" attack to another monster within reach/range.

4) Encourage players to avoid ongoing effects that slow down combat, especially Summons.

5) Avoid using lots of enemies. Instead, use fewer, more powerful enemies.

[Grod_The_Giant]

5) Avoid using lots of enemies. Instead, use fewer, more powerful enemies.
5b) Alternately, import 4e-style minions (always deal average damage; go down on one hit but immune to splash damage, have Evasion/Mettle, etc)

[TheDarkSaint]

I tried having larger enemies, but with the action economy, my players were able to snuff them very easily. If I went too far, it was a slaughter for the PC's.

Getting rid of all the bonus's is an idea. Kinda gimps the bard though, as it's his only niche.

[eggynack]

I tried having larger enemies, but with the action economy, my players were able to snuff them very easily. If I went too far, it was a slaughter for the PC's.

Getting rid of all the bonus's is an idea. Kinda gimps the bard though, as it's his only niche.
I wouldn't call inspire courage a fiddly bonus. It's a pretty major class feature, so I'd just keep it in. Besides, it hits everyone in the party, so it's not too hard to remember.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I tried having larger enemies, but with the action economy, my players were able to snuff them very easily. If I went too far, it was a slaughter for the PC's.
Give "boss" monsters an extra turn. It helps immensely.

[Person_Man]

I tried having larger enemies, but with the action economy, my players were able to snuff them very easily. If I went too far, it was a slaughter for the PC's.

Giving them an extra action definitely helps.

But you also shouldn't be afraid to give enemies templates, to help balance the scales. Damage Reduction X/-, Spell Resistance, Attacks of Opportunity, area of effect abilities, and other similar effects help a lot.


Getting rid of all the bonus's is an idea. Kinda gimps the bard though, as it's his only niche.

Replace fiddly Bardic abilities with free Bardic Music feats: Dragonfire Inspiration, Snowflake Wardance, Doomspeech, etc. They're generally much better then the classic Bard abilities anyway.

[lsfreak]

I tried having larger enemies, but with the action economy, my players were able to snuff them very easily. If I went too far, it was a slaughter for the PC's.

The key, I've found, is having level-appropriate damage, with lots of defense. Grabbing a high-level monster is, as you say, going to risk TPK. But modding level-appropriate enemies to have some combination of movement (flight, travel devotion, short-range teleports), passive defenses (non-crap amounts of damage reduction, miss chance, extra hit points, non-trivial fast healing, leech effects), battlefield control (reach + trip + Combat Reflexes, web/entangle/etc), action economy shenanigans (arcane spellsurge, schism, flat giving extra moves/standard actions/entire turns), and avoiding non-attack single-target abilities (grapple versus constrict+multigrab, charm person versus fetid breath) does wonders to make a single opponent an actual challenge. Though with six players, you're probably going to have to do a lot to make a single enemy challenging, I'd suggest two is likely going to work better.

[danzibr]

The key, I've found, is having level-appropriate damage, with lots of defense.
I absolutely agree. Give them loads more hp, damage reduction, multiple phases (like kill a dude, he auto rezzes as an undead or something, or beat the outer form a monster to reveal the inner form). Gives it a nice epic feel while not threatening a TPK.

[CaladanMoonblad]

I've been running 3.0 and 3.5 since they came out. I've had variable groups sized 2 to 8.

The more people, the longer the rounds, no matter the game system used.

The key is not to start throwing mechanics overboard like porters tossing crates over the side of the ship. The key is the following;

1) If you use a white board, write the initiative order down so everyone can see who is coming up next. If you use a computer, type it out on the big screen so everyone can see. This helps players to take the time they need to make decisions without doing it during their turn.

2) Encourage players to roll all their attacks at once, instead of one at a time. Just have them write down the color of their die with the first, second, third attack, etc.

3) Have more than one PHB handy to quickly adjudicate issues. If you use a computer, always have one tab of your browser open to the 3.5 SRD online (http://www.d20srd.org/).


Of course, no matter what your poison (3.5, MERPS, GURPS, Shadowrun, etc.), some of the above are always good considerations with larger groups. It's not the fault of the game that your rounds are running longer... there's a human component involved as well.