Pathfinder Mythic Tiers and 3.5

[molten_dragon]

So I just got the first book in the next Pathfinder AP, Wrath of the Righteous. My group has played several of the APs, and has really liked most of them (though a couple have been pretty terrible as well).

Wrath of the Righteous looks really awesome, and a couple of my players are already really excited about playing it.

There's one problem though. The Mythic Tiers. We play the APs using 3.5 rules, not Pathfinder. Not through any dislike of Pathfinder, but basically because we all have a bunch of 3.5 books, and don't want to buy new ones to start playing Pathfinder instead. This has worked fine so far.

However I'm a little bit hesitant about whether it'll work to play Wrath of the Righteous as 3.5 characters, since it sounds like the Mythic Tiers add a pretty hefty dose of power, so normal 3.5 characters might not be able to keep up.

There are several possible solutions I've thought of.

1. Switch over to Pathfinder - The biggest problem with this is that we have to relearn some rules, and get familiar with a bunch of new material, plus it's going to cost a decent chunk of money.

2. Try to tack the Pathfinder Mythic rules onto 3.5. I have no idea how well this would work, since I'm not at all familiar with the mythic rules.

3. Try to modify the adventure not to use mythic rules. This could work, but I dislike having to modify a lot of stuff, and the AP will probably lose something if I don't use the Mythic rules.

4. Try to find some way of increasing characters power level within the 3.5 rules to be equivalent to PF characters using Mythic rules. This might also work, but then it begs the question of what exactly I'm going to do to up the power levels, and how well it will all balance out.

Anyone have any suggestions on what might be the best path to take, and how to go about it?

[Sephoris]

From reading up on the Mythic rules, it sounds like adding them to your 3.5 game should be easy. They're an entirely separate progression from leveling, and each of the Mythic Path options is broad enough to fit a wide range of classes (there's really just arcane spellcaster, divine spellcaster, beatstick melee, tanky melee, rogue, and leadership paths), so you shouldn't run up against conflicting class features or anything.

[137beth]

It shouldn't be too hard to add them in to 3.5--nothing in them really depends on anything that changed from 3.5 to PF.

Also, you don't have to buy a bunch of PF books, just look here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/).

[Segev]

Where are "Mythic Tiers" written up?

[Alefiend]

Where are "Mythic Tiers" written up?

The mythic rules haven't been commercially released yet, as far as I know. There should be a fair amount of beta product and forum discussions if you want to look for them, though.

To the OP, I recommend just going over to Pathfinder. The PFSRD is always up to date—you can bet the mythic stuff will be up as soon as the book drops—and you don't have to buy a whole book for one or two snippets within. Buy the ones you'll use heavily, and use the intertubes for the rest, with Paizo's blessing.

[molten_dragon]

Also, you don't have to buy a bunch of PF books, just look here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/).

Yeah, I know about the Pathfinder SRD. I just like having a book to reference at the table rather than having to look up everything online.

[Keneth]

Actually, Mythic Adventures has been released as a hardcover a few days ago, and the PDF is gonna be released tomorrow, to coincide with this year's Gen Con.

[molten_dragon]

To the OP, I recommend just going over to Pathfinder.

I'm thinking more and more about this as time goes on. It seems like it's inevitable at some point. Pathfinder and 3.5 seem to be drifting a little bit further apart with every new release, and it's harder to keep up with the changes. Maybe I should just bite the bullet and make the switch. I'm still hesitant though.

Anyone want to try and sell me on Pathfinder? What makes it good enough compared to 3.5 to be worth buying a bunch of new books?

[Segev]

Honestly? "3.P" as this board calls it looks pretty viable for the forseeable future, I think. Don't toss your books from 3.5. If you're "making the switch," do it gradually. Switch main mechanics over (using combat maneuver values rather than the complicated rules for grapples etc. in 3.5), and keep going as you are. Allow PF classes, and allow conversions to them if players want. One thing to be wary of/keep in mind: PF did change 0th level spells to not consuming slots. You know/prepare what you want, and use them all day. This is mostly a non-issue if you just say "okay, so my 3.5 casters do the same, now," but a couple get weird about it (Duskblade, I'm looking at you).

But for the most part, switching to the base mechanics will be all you need to do to make a viable shift. Then introduce things as you see fit. Keep an eye on balance, because 3.P can have some seriously unintended interactions, but the systems are highly, highly compatible.

[Keneth]

Maybe I should just bite the bullet and make the switch.

It's a simple transition really, and all the rules material is free, so I don't see how switching to it requires you to bite the bullet in any way. Switching to Pathfinder is an entirely natural transition, and in most cases it doesn't prevent you from using 3.5 resource material (though you'll quickly find that you don't need most of it).


(using combat maneuver values rather than the complicated rules for grapples etc. in 3.5)

Grapples are still complicated (to the point where 3 flowcharts are needed), so maybe that's not the best example. :smallwink:

The situation has improved considerably though.

[molten_dragon]

It's a simple transition really, and all the rules material is free, so I don't see how switching to it requires you to bite the bullet in any way.

Well, it requires learning a number of new rules. Which isn't a huge difference but since we've all been playing 3.5 for several years at this point, it'll slow our games down some for awhile. And as I pointed out earlier, I prefer to have actual books to use for any games I run, so I'd need to buy at least a couple of the sourcebooks, and I'd eventually probably want most if not all of them, which is a not insignificant investment.

[Keneth]

Ugh, I appreciate the appeal of hardcovers, but browsing through actual rulebooks mid-game is tedious and bogs the game down far more than learning a few differences between the systems ever could.

In fact, there is very little in terms of new rules that you need to learn. There's your combat maneuvers, and a few compacted skills. Power Attack works differently, Dodge always applies, and some of the spells were toned down a bit. Polymorph effects especially follow entirely new and (more) balanced rules.

Other than that, it's just new class abilities and stuff. No different that choosing a class you've never played before, except you know the basics already.

Step into the 21st century, search engines and compiled resource material is the sh​it. :smalltongue:

[molten_dragon]

Ugh, I appreciate the appeal of hardcovers, but browsing through actual rulebooks mid-game is tedious and bogs the game down far more than learning a few differences between the systems ever could.

Step into the 21st century, search engines and compiled resource material is the sh​it. :smalltongue:

I completely disagree. Our wifi connection is fairly slow in the basement, so searching for stuff online isn't that fast.

And if I let everyone bring a laptop/tablet to look up stuff online if they don't have rulebooks, they get distracted with other **** and that bogs down the game far more than the slight delay cause by actually having to flip pages in a real book.

Don't get me wrong, I love that Paizo puts all the pathfinder material online to use for free, but I'd never rely solely on that to run a game.

[olentu]

Well, it requires learning a number of new rules. Which isn't a huge difference but since we've all been playing 3.5 for several years at this point, it'll slow our games down some for awhile. And as I pointed out earlier, I prefer to have actual books to use for any games I run, so I'd need to buy at least a couple of the sourcebooks, and I'd eventually probably want most if not all of them, which is a not insignificant investment.

Personally, I would suggest you just stick with 3.5, since you know it and have many books, and port over any pathfinder things you care about. It saves the confusion of having to learn new rules, it avoids any changes you feel are poor, and it costs nothing. So long as you are not moving huge swaths of stuff you may even be able to just print it out.

[peacenlove]

Well, it requires learning a number of new rules. Which isn't a huge difference but since we've all been playing 3.5 for several years at this point, it'll slow our games down some for awhile. And as I pointed out earlier, I prefer to have actual books to use for any games I run, so I'd need to buy at least a couple of the sourcebooks, and I'd eventually probably want most if not all of them, which is a not insignificant investment.

You can import the vast majority of 3.5 material into PF with minimal effort / on the fly adjustments.
Classes are generally stronger in numbers but lost options (fighter feat nerf / numeric bonuses out of the box, druid etc)
Monsters are better/tougher and more streamlined.
For magic items, stick to 3.5's MIC. Outside of few exceptions, items are overpriced or very specialized. A step backwards on this regard IMO.
Endless hunt for small detail (especially on spells) and blatant power creep is still here. However some 3.5 inconsistencies are fixed (such as slow and swift/immediate actions)

[137beth]

I completely disagree. Our wifi connection is fairly slow in the basement, so searching for stuff online isn't that fast.

And if I let everyone bring a laptop/tablet to look up stuff online if they don't have rulebooks, they get distracted with other **** and that bogs down the game far more than the slight delay cause by actually having to flip pages in a real book.

Don't get me wrong, I love that Paizo puts all the pathfinder material online to use for free, but I'd never rely solely on that to run a game.

I feel ya...
Might I suggest buying just the PDFs of the PF books? That way you can download them and save them on your computer (no need to worry about wifi connections). It is much, much cheaper to buy it as a PDF from Paizo's store than to buy the physical books.

[Keneth]

Our wifi connection is fairly slow in the basement, so searching for stuff online isn't that fast.

Unless it's the equivalent of a dial-up modem, sending a text request and receiving a search response is faster than any physical perusal of an actual book. It shouldn't even compare to browsing through electronic books, although having a collection of official PDFs is certainly an improvement.


And if I let everyone bring a laptop/tablet to look up stuff online if they don't have rulebooks, they get distracted with other ****

Well firstly, it's your job to keep them interested. And secondly, it's their job to stay focused. If it gets out of hand, just let them know it's not okay. It's never derailed or bogged down our games, and we use nothing but the SRD. Of course I know nothing about your group, younger people are considerably harder to keep in check. :smallsmile:

[Segev]

If you know what you're looking for, book perusal can be much faster than even the fastest internet connection, especially if you have to check between multiple things. Flipping pages between bookmarks is a lot faster than having to click up and down hyperlink paths.

[Vortenger]

My groups play 3.P with all WotC and PFSRD content open, and we love it. We play without CMB/CMD, use the 3.5 tumble rules (rolling tumble against a colossal centipedes grapple mod gets silly fast), and when choosing feats, if a pathfinder feat shares a name with a 3.5 feat, use only the PF version (unless the change is ridiculous, such as some of the improved [combat maneuver] feat nerfs). It eliminates some cheese such as 3.5 DMM persist. Pathfinder only adds a couple T1 and T2 classes but fills the T3-5 class listings in nicely.

This way all those old books and knowledge don't fade away, but learning the new stuff opens up lots of new options and synergies. May not work for you, but it did for the 2 groups I play in.

p.s. Traits and archetypes are fun in PF. LA buyoff is...different. New versions of Binder, Warlock, Cloistered Cleric (now the Priest), all of psi, and soon a PF version of ToB. Other than that it feels like the same game. Keep what you like from the old and shamelessly play the new.

[Keneth]

If you know what you're looking for, book perusal can be much faster than even the fastest internet connection, especially if you have to check between multiple things. Flipping pages between bookmarks is a lot faster than having to click up and down hyperlink paths.

Faster than typing a phrase into the search engine and clicking on a link? Yeah, that I'd like to see. Especially considering the fact that the information in the books is scattered all over the place (which is one of the reasons I don't use PDFs, even though I have a complete collection). Even the simplest lookup is faster with a computer, more so in fact if you need to check between multiple things. Plus, it's far easier (and less terrifying) to bookmark webpages or keep a session of tabs saved which contains all the stuff you check regularly.

[137beth]

I'd like to mention:

The official pathfinder PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/), although it contains less information than the pfsrd (only the hardcover main books, while pfsrd has stuff the player's companion, APs, modules, campaign setting, and PFS scenarios), and although it does not normally include FAQs on the side, its pages load much faster than the pfsrd.
Also, the PRD is organized by book and section, like the physical books, so if you are use to finding stuff in the books it is easier. In fact, if you know what book something is in, the PRD is much, much faster than the pfsrd, since the server is a lot faster.

I actually use both the pfsrd and the prd: I use the prd if I know what book something is in and it is on the prd, and I need to pull it up quickly. I use the pfsrd for more general searches.

[Snowbluff]

The rules changes in PF aren't such a big deal. I would say if you have the books for 3.5, just back port the mythic rules into 3.5.

Vortenger's pretty much got the whole deal right.

[W3bDragon]

Faster than typing a phrase into the search engine and clicking on a link? Yeah, that I'd like to see.

Funnily enough, we tend to do this in our gaming group all the time. Whenever we need to check a rule or spell, some players grab their phones and start searching, while others grab books and begin flipping. We've found that the books are usually faster if you know what section the information you need is. Browsing is faster if you don't know the section you need. Looking up a skill or the grapple rules (yet again!), grab the book. Trying to remember the default frequency for poisons? Browse.

Don't get me wrong, I personally have my character's whole spellbook bookmarked on my phone for quick lookups, but when I'm DMing, I prefer to have at least the core rule books with me.


******

As for the OP, I recommend switching to pathfinder. My experience with switching to pathfinder was as follows:

Pros:

* Less supplemental books means more straightforward character building. You don't feel like you're missing out because you don't happen to have Libris Mortis and as a DM you don't have to have a laundry list of allowed/disallowed books.

* Some fixes and rules-streamlining from 3.5 were welcome. Some mistakes were also made, but nothing really worse than 3.5.

* The Golarion setting is pretty fun with a lot of potential.

Cons:

* The rules are so similar, that you very often fall into the trap of thinking you know what a rule is, because you know its 3.5 counterpart. However, once you check, you'll be surprised that it had changed. In some places it looks like they changed rules just to change them. Never, ever, assume that you know what a rule is or what a spell does without reading it. Thoroughly. You'll often be surprised.

* Obviously, needing to buy new books. I personally have a collection of 40 3.5 books that's just collecting dust. But then, I'd rather go buy a game I'd like to play than to play a game just because I happen to have it.

* Some players might resent losing a lot of the options in 3.5.

[Alleran]

As a note on mythic tiers, I think they've said that they put it at two mythic tiers for each level (roughly). Whether that's actually the case I'm not sure, since I don't have the PDF yet (Paizo site says "PDF available today" but hasn't given me the option to buy it...).

It sounds like there are some interesting new tricks in there, however. One is apparently Shatter Spell, which allows you to dispel (as greater dispel magic) active spell effects by hitting them with a weapon (or unarmed strike).

[molten_dragon]

Faster than typing a phrase into the search engine and clicking on a link? Yeah, that I'd like to see. Especially considering the fact that the information in the books is scattered all over the place (which is one of the reasons I don't use PDFs, even though I have a complete collection). Even the simplest lookup is faster with a computer, more so in fact if you need to check between multiple things. Plus, it's far easier (and less terrifying) to bookmark webpages or keep a session of tabs saved which contains all the stuff you check regularly.

Look, I appreciate that you're a big fan of the PFSRD. I am too, but you aren't going to convince me to run a game with that as my sole pathfinder resource.

[molten_dragon]

My groups play 3.P with all WotC and PFSRD content open, and we love it. We play without CMB/CMD, use the 3.5 tumble rules (rolling tumble against a colossal centipedes grapple mod gets silly fast), and when choosing feats, if a pathfinder feat shares a name with a 3.5 feat, use only the PF version (unless the change is ridiculous, such as some of the improved [combat maneuver] feat nerfs). It eliminates some cheese such as 3.5 DMM persist. Pathfinder only adds a couple T1 and T2 classes but fills the T3-5 class listings in nicely.

This way all those old books and knowledge don't fade away, but learning the new stuff opens up lots of new options and synergies. May not work for you, but it did for the 2 groups I play in.

p.s. Traits and archetypes are fun in PF. LA buyoff is...different. New versions of Binder, Warlock, Cloistered Cleric (now the Priest), all of psi, and soon a PF version of ToB. Other than that it feels like the same game. Keep what you like from the old and shamelessly play the new.

I think this is the route I may end up going down. That way I can keep using all the 3.5 material I bought, and enjoy the new pathfinder stuff too.

[Alleran]

Well, I have the Mythic Adventures book and have been browsing through it for a while now. There's some interesting stuff, some broken stuff (good and bad), and some not-so-broken stuff. Several of the mythic path abilities seem to be no-brainers, but there are a lot of them (which is part of the problem, I think - there's no way that they could have adequately playtested them all in enough time). The art is quite fantastic, though I'm not necessarily a fan of some of the mythic looks that the Iconics got. Seoni in particular (Kyra, on the other hand, is looking fantastic as a flowing-haired, trenchcoat-wearing cleric).

Oh, it is now possible to create (with some limitations) artifacts. Major and Minor. You get a Mythic Legendary Item (via a universal path ability as a default, but the GM can hand one out as part of treasure, too), and then the second time you take the Legendary Item ability it becomes a Minor Artifact, then goes to a Major Artifact the third time. GM decides the thematic "one method of destruction" for it.

I also think that Divine Source will come in very useful for fighters. They can take that and Mythic Spellcasting, then cast mythic spells from their limited array (as spell-like abilities I think, if getting technical).

[Keneth]

Whenever we need to check a rule or spell, some players grab their phones and start searching

Well there's your problem. :smalltongue:


Look, I appreciate that you're a big fan of the PFSRD.

Actually, I'm a big fan of computers, seeing as computer science is my particular area of expertise. :smallbiggrin:

I'm not trying to convince you use the PRD as your only resource. I'm saying you can, and it works fine. Saves you hundreds of dollars/euros spent on books as well.

[Gigas Breaker]

Even with the Player's Handbook right next to me I still use a bookmarked pdf or the srd. I can never go back.

[Hunter Noventa]

Well, I have the Mythic Adventures book and have been browsing through it for a while now. There's some interesting stuff, some broken stuff (good and bad), and some not-so-broken stuff. Several of the mythic path abilities seem to be no-brainers, but there are a lot of them (which is part of the problem, I think - there's no way that they could have adequately playtested them all in enough time). The art is quite fantastic, though I'm not necessarily a fan of some of the mythic looks that the Iconics got. Seoni in particular (Kyra, on the other hand, is looking fantastic as a flowing-haired, trenchcoat-wearing cleric).

Oh, it is now possible to create (with some limitations) artifacts. Major and Minor. You get a Mythic Legendary Item (via a universal path ability as a default, but the GM can hand one out as part of treasure, too), and then the second time you take the Legendary Item ability it becomes a Minor Artifact, then goes to a Major Artifact the third time. GM decides the thematic "one method of destruction" for it.

I also think that Divine Source will come in very useful for fighters. They can take that and Mythic Spellcasting, then cast mythic spells from their limited array (as spell-like abilities I think, if getting technical).

Oh wow, that sounds quite impressive. I might have to stop by my FLGS to take a look at that.

[Segev]

I have, personally, still found it faster and easier to page through a book than to try to navigate the hyperlinks (or, worse, use search functions that take up to 20s to load, even with a cable internet connection, and then pick the right entry out of the list of options). At least, when I know the books.

If I don't know them, as others have said, or at least know where in them to look, then yes, the hyperlinked computer option works better.