Maneuver Qualification

[cbaidchris]

If I meet the requirements for a maneuver when I gain it but then swap out one of the requirements later and no longer meet them can I still use it?

[Segev]

The rules for swapping out maneuvers specify, IIRC, that you can't swap out a maneuver if it would make you ineligible for other maneuvers you know.

[lsfreak]

That's not in the Maneuver entries for the classes, at least, though it may be buried elsewhere. Going from memory like you were, though, I was remembering that you can swap out maneuvers acting as prereqs, and you can continue to use the maneuver that lost its prereq, because the prereq is specifically for learning, not for using.

[Chronos]

I'm sure I've seen somewhere in the book that explicitly said that you keep a maneuver even if you lose its prerequisites... But I'm not finding it now.

[lsfreak]

Well, the section of the Blade Magic chapter talking about prerequisites does make it clear that the prereqs are for learning the maneuver, not using it. (I really wish ToB was a bit better-organized, I don't really want to spend an hour searching through for anything more specific than that).

[Xervous]

Most people talk about swapping out maneuvers that were used to meet the prerequisites for other maneuvers without penalty because the dependent maneuvers self qualify in those circumstances.

Maneuver A: Requires 0 from this school
Maneuver B: Requires 1 from this school

gain A, gain B, remove A, B's qualification is fulfilled by itself.

[Manly Man]

Most people talk about swapping out maneuvers that were used to meet the prerequisites for other maneuvers without penalty because the dependent maneuvers self qualify in those circumstances.

Maneuver A: Requires 0 from this school
Maneuver B: Requires 1 from this school

gain A, gain B, remove A, B's qualification is fulfilled by itself.

This is pretty much exactly how it works.

[cbaidchris]

Most people talk about swapping out maneuvers that were used to meet the prerequisites for other maneuvers without penalty because the dependent maneuvers self qualify in those circumstances.

Maneuver A: Requires 0 from this school
Maneuver B: Requires 1 from this school

gain A, gain B, remove A, B's qualification is fulfilled by itself.

ok but what if I have maneuver A that requires two maneuvers from it's discipline but then I remove both those two so that it is it's only disciplines maneuver left

[Xervous]

Then you cry because its prerequisites aren't met.

Or rather you couldn't remove both because it would violate the qualification rule.

[Vaz]

By RAW, only mention is made of "learning", maneuvres; re, yes, you can still use Maneuvres you no longer have the requisite number of maneuvres for.

[SciChronic]

issues like these are why houserules are needed. i personally house rule that the # of maneuvers requirement is ignored. it really makes multiclassing into and out of initiator classes less cumbersome.

[Gigas Breaker]

By RAW, only mention is made of "learning", maneuvres; re, yes, you can still use Maneuvres you no longer have the requisite number of maneuvres for.

This is correct. By RAW it only matters for learning. Also stances count as maneuvers for prereqs.

[ramrod]

Swap away, you do not need to keep requirements up once you have met them. The requirements are aimed more at people trying to take maneuvers through martial study feat than anything else. Otherwise it is just a killjoy. Many DMs disregard prerequisites other than initiator level if you are actually playing a ToB class.

Have a word with yours to see if he can see the light. All it does for ToB classes is stymies the creativity and flexibility of otherwise awesome classes. For people cherry picking feats, it would be rather obscene for people to be able to just grab some of the higher level maneuvers.

[Vaz]

Why? Because Melee can't have nice things?

And Higher Level; erm, they're limited to around Maneuvres of 5th Level for their 18th level feat; even those taking a Fighter/Psywar/Feat Rogue/Martial Wizard dip at 20th level would only have access to 5th level maneuvres.

While yes, some of those maneuvres are pretty cool, they're not exactly gamebreaking; in fact, I'd like to see how the application of taking a single Martial Study Feat at 20th level, with no requirement to the number of Maneuvre's known (but must still meet Initiator Level) would cause melee to become "Obscene" (while at that level Tier 5 Healer 20's or even non-tiered Truenamers are gating in big bad uglies).