Unusual Theory: Geoff the Snowman

[Sunken Valley]

This theory is likely not true but I'll propose it anyway.

Uncle Geoff is obviously suspicious and hiding something. I believe he is hiding that he is a simulacrum. Of who? Miron Shewdanker.

How is that possible?

Miron obviously has some magic talent. We see him using a wand to freeze Tarquin's Ex-Wife. I say simulacrum because Miron is very clearly with the Weeping Kingdom, advising their king to lash out.

Miron Shewdanker knew of Ian Starshine. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html) Knowing his reputation, he may have put someone to guard him.

Ian can't break out of jail. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) Because Geoff is telling on him.

Look at this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) Apart from the scarf, Miron and Geoff look identical. Maybe the scarf is to prevent from giving the game away.

I mentioned in another thread that Miron is a bard based on what Tarquin considers a classic team. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html). A bard could lie to Ian well.

Geoff panics when Belkar mentions Bozzock. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html) This is likely because Miron was asked by Bozzock to keep Ian there and his simulacrum wants out of jail.

The cells are anti-magic. Simulacrum still function in anti-magic.

Geoff's main strategy is dodging. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html) Note however, that his scars do not fully heal, unlike Ian's. Simulacrum can't heal naturally.

Now to plug the biggest hole in my theory (controversy awaits). Haley clearly knows Uncle Geoff as Uncle Geoff, based on the jail scene. So Miron can't have mind-raped Ian to make him believe in a fake brother in law. Instead, I propose that Miron Shewdanker is an alias. His real name is Geoff. He is a bard and used UMD to make a Simulacrum to watch Ian and join him in jail. The Giant refuses to answer a question saying that Aunt Ivy's existence is a plothole. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12299486#post12299486) Now we "know" why.

What do you think?

[Conte_Vincero]

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Most random theory EVER!!!!!!!!

[Mightymosy]

If that turns out to be remotely true (I must confess I didn't understand all that simulacrum stuff =) ) then

1) 758 is one of the best orchestrated hint I've seen in a while!

2) You did an awesome job finding it!

[The Pilgrim]

Sure. And Malack is a vampire...

oh, wait...

[TRH]

Hmm...and you wouldn't know whether or not Miron has a beard like Geoff, because he's always got that scarf! Brilliant!

[Sylian]

Look closely at Miron in strip #758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html). Notice those wrinkles under his eyes? Where have we seen that before?

[DeliaP]

This theory is likely not true but I'll propose it anyway.

Uncle Geoff is obviously suspicious and hiding something. I believe he is hiding that he is a simulacrum. Of who? Miron Shewdanker.

How is that possible?

Miron obviously has some magic talent. We see him using a wand to freeze Tarquin's Ex-Wife. I say simulacrum because Miron is very clearly with the Weeping Kingdom, advising their king to lash out.

Miron Shewdanker knew of Ian Starshine. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html) Knowing his reputation, he may have put someone to guard him.

Ian can't break out of jail. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) Because Geoff is telling on him.

Look at this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) Apart from the scarf, Miron and Geoff look identical. Maybe the scarf is to prevent from giving the game away.

I mentioned in another thread that Miron is a bard based on what Tarquin considers a classic team. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html). A bard could lie to Ian well.

Geoff panics when Belkar mentions Bozzock. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html) This is likely because Miron was asked by Bozzock to keep Ian there and his simulacrum wants out of jail.

The cells are anti-magic. Simulacrum still function in anti-magic.

Geoff's main strategy is dodging. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html) Note however, that his scars do not fully heal, unlike Ian's. Simulacrum can't heal naturally.

Now to plug the biggest hole in my theory (controversy awaits). Haley clearly knows Uncle Geoff as Uncle Geoff, based on the jail scene. So Miron can't have mind-raped Ian to make him believe in a fake brother in law. Instead, I propose that Miron Shewdanker is an alias. His real name is Geoff. He is a bard and used UMD to make a Simulacrum to watch Ian and join him in jail. The Giant refuses to answer a question saying that Aunt Ivy's existence is a plothole. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12299486#post12299486) Now we "know" why.

What do you think?

I like the idea!

But....

If Ian Starshine was an important enough prisoner to arrange a simulacrum of Geoff/Miron, I imagine Tarquin would recognise him (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0814.html)? And even if Tarquin doesn't recognise Ian, surely he'd recognise Miron by Panel 1 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html).

Either he'd recognise them outright, and wouldn't need to ask Kilkil about their papers, or he'd want to avoid any suggestion that he recognised them and would simply treat them as random prisoners?

Also, while Geoff being working for Bozzok, to keep Ian Starshine out of the way, might work as an explanation, I can't see why Geoff/Miron would invite Ian (panel 11) (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) to Tyrinaria to overthrow Tarquin in the first place?

[Sunken Valley]

I like the idea!

But....

If Ian Starshine was an important enough prisoner to arrange a simulacrum of Geoff/Miron, I imagine Tarquin would recognise him (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0814.html)? And even if Tarquin doesn't recognise Ian, surely he'd recognise Miron by Panel 1 (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html).

Either he'd recognise them outright, and wouldn't need to ask Kilkil about their papers, or he'd want to avoid any suggestion that he recognised them and would simply treat them as random prisoners?

Also, while Geoff being working for Bozzok, to keep Ian Starshine out of the way, might work as an explanation, I can't see why Geoff/Miron would invite Ian (panel 11) (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) to Tyrinaria to overthrow Tarquin in the first place?

For those who don't know a Simulacrum is an illusion spell which lets the caster create a duplicate of any creature made out of ice and snow provided the caster has DNA of the creature. This duplicate is only half as powerful as it's origin source and cannot level up or heal naturally. Check it out. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm)

Whilst it is not in the srd description, it is mentioned in several other WOTC sources and in Dungeon and Dragon magazine that a Simulacrum appears to anyone who looks upon it with True Seeing as a humanoid shape made of ice. Tarquin with his Magic Ring would see the simulacrum (but not Miron), which would draw his suspicion to Ian that he had a simulacrum with him (it may have been a policy to have simulacrum guards on risky prisoners).

Secondly, Tarquin does not look once at Geoff in 814 and 815 Here he looks at Ian, KilKil, Belkar and no one else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0814.html)

With regards to Bozzock, he never claims he had someone who worked for him to send Ian away. He says he asked some friends, to get rid of Ian. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) A 19th level rogue would likely have a chancellor of an evil empire as a friend. It would also fit the theme of evil people having friends (and Ian's arc should include a betrayal by Geoff, the family member he considered above suspicion).

[DeliaP]

<good points snipped>

Good points!

[ThePhantasm]

I like this theory. Nice catch.

[Sunken Valley]

I like this theory. Nice catch.

You know you've made a good theory if ThePhantasm likes it.

Edit: Look at panel 9. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) I may be seeing things but you can see a bit of what looks like a scar just peaking over Miron's mask in the same place Geoff's scar is.

[RNGgod]

Oh, my goodness. This is both highly impressive and just crazy enough that I'm signing onto the idea. It's the bags under Miron's eyes in 758 (panel 9, as mentioned above) that really get me.

Hey, V killing the Draketeeth was implausible too!

[137beth]

Well, the real question is whether Geoff is wearing an invisible hat! See, if he is, then he is only moving due to having the hat on, and removing it will reduce him to an ordinary snowman.

[littlebum2002]

In not usually a fan of outlandish theories, but this has a nice ring to it. Maybe not all of it is true, but I definately think there is a good chance Geoff is getting Ian thrown back in prison.

[Gift Jeraff]

I like it.

And if Tarquin did see Geoff, what if Tarquin has never seen Miron without his scarf?

[hopeful1212]

I was looking at #758 blown up and it didn't look like Geoff & Miron had the exact same skin color. I wanted to see if this was a real difference or just appeared that way because of the contrast of the backgrounds in panels 9 & 10 especially. So I saved the image and checked in GIMP and sadly they're different: Geoff's skin is color (27,26,78) while Miron's skin is color (27,29.74). Those are RGB values.

This would seem to argue against the Simulacrum theory. I suppose it might not have to produce an exact duplicate. Though, if the Giant had intended something like this, it would probably be far simpler to use the same head sprite over instead of a different one with a slightly different skin color. Especially in the same comic.

EDIT: Those RGB values aren't right. The real ones are: 198,170,147 for Geoff & 188,158,134 for Miron.

[Rakoa]

After the simulacrum is created, though, it can be affected differently and so look different. If Geoff the Simulacrum has been in prison for years, malnourished and sun deprived, his skin tone could be greatly different than that of the presumably rich, powerful, and free Miron.

[Newwby]

I'll be dissapointed if this doesn't come to pass now! The part referencing Tarquin's ring of true seeing (aka why he wouldn't see Miron) was brilliant.

Thankyou for making this post as you finally forced me to figure out who this 'Miron' people on the forum had been referring to was. Very cool use of one of Tarquin's band as the chancellor by the giant.

[Gift Jeraff]

After the simulacrum is created, though, it can be affected differently and so look different. If Geoff the Simulacrum has been in prison for years, malnourished and sun deprived, his skin tone could be greatly different than that of the presumably rich, powerful, and free Miron.

Yep. Notice how Ian isn't the same colour he used to be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html).

[hopeful1212]

Yep. Notice how Ian isn't the same colour he used to be (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0608.html).

Good catch. Ian's skin is lighter now than before, as Geoff's is lighter than Miron's. Could be on to something.

[skim172]

A little far-fetched. But I do think something's up with Geoff - I think you might be right that he was the one ratting on Ian. I'm certain that Ian Starshine, Geoff and Aunt Ivy, and the Thieves' Guild still have a role to play. And it occurs to me that the two bounty hunters might ultimately be involved in that plot thread as well.

So many loose threads - HOW DO THEY ALL TIE TOGETHER MY BRAIN IS EXPLODING WITH THE POSSIBILITIES AHHHH

[Ark_X01]

Also, while Geoff being working for Bozzok, to keep Ian Starshine out of the way, might work as an explanation, I can't see why Geoff/Miron would invite Ian (panel 11) (http://http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) to Tyrinaria to overthrow Tarquin in the first place?
Oh my god, this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) comic just took on a whole lot more significance.

If Geoff/Miron was working with Tarquin, then he could get Ian to come over and then be captured after being paid/influenced by Bozzok, and use a simulacrum to keep up the disguise of a resistance.

This Along with the eye wrinkles, this theory is disturbingly possible.

Edit: What if Aunt Ivy is the caster who just portal'd in Tarquin and his army in #910?

[littlebum2002]

Another plus to your theory: I can't find the strip, so it's possible that I'm wrong, but didn't I an go to the Western continent because Geoff sent him a letter? And we have Buzzok blatantly telling us that he had someone write Geoff a letter to send him there? If this strip exists, and if I can find it, it might be the smoking gun that there is something to this theory after all.

[Kornaki]

Edit: What if Aunt Ivy is the caster who just portal'd in Tarquin and his army in #910?

Then the OOTS is going to be renamed "Order of the people whose families took over the western continent without telling any of them".

We know that uncle Geoff is Haley's uncle by marriage, and aunt Ivy is her aunt by blood, so wouldn't it be weird if that whole part of the family was level 17 spellcasters and she and her dad didn't know?

[Ark_X01]

Another plus to your theory: I can't find the strip, so it's possible that I'm wrong, but didn't I an go to the Western continent because Geoff sent him a letter? And we have Buzzok blatantly telling us that he had someone write Geoff a letter to send him there? If this strip exists, and if I can find it, it might be the smoking gun that there is something to this theory after all.
It wasn't Geoff; it was Ivy that sent the letter according to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) strip. It throws a wrench in the theory, just like the fact that Geoff threatened Elan, knowing that it was Tarquin's son (although that is rather easily explained away, since no harm ever came to Elan).


We know that uncle Geoff is Haley's uncle by marriage, and aunt Ivy is her aunt by blood, so wouldn't it be weird if that whole part of the family was level 17 spellcasters and she and her dad didn't know?
What made me suspicious of Ivy is the fact that she called Ian to the Western Continent; she would have been Bozzok's contact. If one of the family members is a level 17 spellcaster, is it that hard to imagine both of them being high level casters? :smalltongue:

[veti]

As crazy theories go, this one has just enough evidence going for it to be entertaining. Thank you for posting it, and all the supporting links. Nice work.

I think there's one thing that doesn't fit, though. As I understand it, a simulacrum can't heal naturally - or even magically, in the normal way - at all, so all the damage he's ever taken should still be there on his body. It doesn't seem credible that that's all the damage he's ever taken, in the course of several years in the Arena.

[Ark_X01]

I think there's one thing that doesn't fit, though. As I understand it, a simulacrum can't heal naturally - or even magically, in the normal way - at all, so all the damage he's ever taken should still be there on his body. It doesn't seem credible that that's all the damage he's ever taken, in the course of several years in the Arena.
Well, he is missing a leg. I'm not sure if scarring counts as healing, but you can sort of see scarring on his body, faintly.

But still, this makes the theory a little less sound :smallconfused:

[Lombard]

Omg.. this is like the end of some Agatha Christie book when all the suspects are gathered in a room...

YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND
:mitd:

[rs2excelsior]

This actually seems quite plausible. If this is true, what better way to keep an eye on Ian than through his family (or at least what he thinks is a family member)? He would never suspect it.

[ti'esar]

The thread title is amusing, but I'm not seeing it at all. It's highly likely that Geoff is working with Bozzok in some fashion, but everything beyond that seems like a real reach.

At any rate, the ioun stone caster is definitely not Aunt Ivy. As noted earlier, she's a blood relative, which should mean some physical resemblance.

[137beth]

The thread title is amusing, but I'm not seeing it at all. It's highly likely that Geoff is working with Bozzok in some fashion, but everything beyond that seems like a real reach.

At any rate, the ioun stone caster is definitely not Aunt Ivy. As noted earlier, she's a blood relative, which should mean some physical resemblance.

Really? I don't think Girard had any physical resemblance to his grandfather...

[ti'esar]

Really? I don't think Girard had any physical resemblance to his grandfather...

He had the "tattoo". But you know what I mean.

[Grey Watcher]

I apologize in advance. I think the tune is self-evident.

Geoffrey the Snowman
Is a very sneaky soul
He's got Ian pegged
And a wooden leg
And a heart as black as coal.

Geoffrey the Snowman,
Is a crazy guess they say.
He'd be made of snow,
But, as we all know,
D&D says that's OK.

He's just a Simulacrum
Made by Miron S. one day.
And now Ian cannot sneak out,
Because Geoff's there to say "HEY!"

Geoffrey the Snowman
Doesn't fight to well you see
Though he may be sly,
He's a caster guy
Recreated icily.

Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Look how Geoffery goes!
Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Passing on all he knows!

Geoffrey the Snowman
Got released one sunny day.
Tarquin did not see,
Or he did, maybe
But said nothing anyway.

Off of the dino
He and Ian quickly dived.
He said, "Find Ivy!"
"No, man, follow me!"
Was the way Ian replied.

He tried to convince Ian
That they did not need to split.
But Ian, that old curmudgeon
Said the papers were were worth [CENSORED].

Geoffrey the Snowman
Had to hurry on his way.
We may have to look
Into the next book,
But he'll be back again someday.

[Sunken Valley]

It wasn't Geoff; it was Ivy that sent the letter according to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) strip. It throws a wrench in the theory, just like the fact that Geoff threatened Elan, knowing that it was Tarquin's son (although that is rather easily explained away, since no harm ever came to Elan).

What made me suspicious of Ivy is the fact that she called Ian to the Western Continent; she would have been Bozzok's contact. If one of the family members is a level 17 spellcaster, is it that hard to imagine both of them being high level casters? :smalltongue:

Time to seal holes in the theory

In Miron's letter to Haley, he refers to her as Ian's only living relative. Ivy is as well, meaning the letter was false. A fan questioned this. The Giant refused to answer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12299486#post12299486).

Also Bozzock never said who he sent a letter to. Maybe he sent it to Geoff who gave writing duty to Ivy.

Geoff threatened Elan. Would not be the first time a member of Team Tarquin tried to kill Elan without Tarquin being there to stop him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html). Maybe Uncle Geoff, as a simulacrum, did not know any better.

Now to seal some other theories I can see coming up.

Geoff tells Roy and Ian about the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html). Something you’d expect Tarquin would not want to be told to everyone. However, Ian has high sense motive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html). To lie, Geoff would have to tell as much of the truth as possible with as few lies. Also, one of the places Ian goes in the Empire is jail, where he can’t get out and no one cares about his stories until Roy comes along. Finally, as a bard, Geoff/Miron would be good at telling stories, even true ones. Maybe Miron is a perform (oratory) bard.

If Bozzock asked his friends to get rid of Ian, why is he ransomed back? Tarquin believes business over pleasure, and having met Ian before, may have considered him valuable. He asked Miron to ransom him off.

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

Long shot theory: Aunt Ivy is a were-tigress.

[Sunken Valley]

Long shot theory: Aunt Ivy is a were-tigress.

Brilliant!

[Kornaki]

Geoff threatened Elan. Would not be the first time a member of Team Tarquin tried to kill Elan without Tarquin being there to stop him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html). Maybe Uncle Geoff, as a simulacrum, did not know any better.

That was a pretty lame attempt at killing Elan. If he really wanted to go through with it he would have just shanked him out in the hallway. It's not clear why Miron would care if Elan is dead anyway, so I don't think the scene needs explaining anyway


However, Ian has high sense motive (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html).

It's a sense motive check of 20 to notice a simulacrum is not the same as the original person, so it can't be too high.



If Bozzock asked his friends to get rid of Ian, why is he ransomed back? Tarquin believes business over pleasure, and having met Ian before, may have considered him valuable. He asked Miron to ransom him off.

This is a better argument for Miron NOT being Bozzok's contact. If Bozzok knew Miron and asked him to get rid of Ian, there would be no ransom notice because Miron would just bury him in a jail cell. If Bozzok knew some low level functionary or random thieves guild guys in the western continent, they would be able to get Ian arrested, but not able to control any ransoming that the government would do afterwards.

[DeliaP]

Time to seal holes in the theory

In Miron's letter to Haley, he refers to her as Ian's only living relative. Ivy is as well, meaning the letter was false. A fan questioned this. The Giant refused to answer. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12299486#post12299486).

Also Bozzock never said who he sent a letter to. Maybe he sent it to Geoff who gave writing duty to Ivy. <snippingotherseals>

Not sure I'm seeing it? While there is some mystery about Aunt Ivy, it's clear that when Ian tells Haley that Ivy invited him, Haley doesn't question the idea. It's clear she believes her dad has a sister.

While Miron's letter to Haley explicitly calls Haley Ian's only living relative. If Miron isn't Geoff, it's plausible he wouldn't know about about Ivy. But if Miron is Geoff (and so must know about Ivy) why does he deliberately get something so wrong in his letter to Haley?

Mind you, I really like the "Catgirl is Aunt Ivy" theory too! As there's some speculation Miron is a Bard and Catgirl is the Rogue, this would mean the Bard and Rogue in Team Tarquin are a couple, just as in OOTS (I am also now tempted to head over to the Team Tarquin thread and construct an "everyone in Team Tarquin is actually a relative of someone in OOTS!" Well, except Malack.)


I've also just realised: Haley didn't know Geoff and Ivy are in the EoB/Tyrinaria when she meets Geoff and Ian in prison. So she won't have put together the fact that Bozzock says he got some freinds to write to Ian and get him to the Western Continent, with Ian saying that it was Ivy who invited him there....

[Ark_X01]

"everyone in Team Tarquin is actually a relative of someone in OOTS!" Well, except Malack.)

:smallbiggrin: but of course! Malack is Durkon's "father" (or rather, Durkula's) as he vampirised him. Miron and Ivy are related to Haley, Tarquin Elan.

Next we find out that their fighter party member is Eugene's long lost brother or something, and that the Psionic/Wizardy woman who Gate'd in Tarquin's army is both the ancestor of V and Belkar somehow.

[Codyage]

Even though it is a wand, if you still want to stick to the ice theme (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html) Miron is casting an ice spell in the last panel.

[DeliaP]

:smallbiggrin: but of course! Malack is Durkon's "father" (or rather, Durkula's) as he vampirised him. Miron and Ivy are related to Haley, Tarquin Elan.

Next we find out that their fighter party member is Eugene's long lost brother or something, and that the Psionic/Wizardy woman who Gate'd in Tarquin's army is both the ancestor of V and Belkar somehow.

Maybe SPG is Fyron's long lost son?:smallsmile:

[Kish]

(I am also now tempted to head over to the Team Tarquin thread and construct an "everyone in Team Tarquin is actually a relative of someone in OOTS!" Well, except Malack.)
What are you talking about? Malack is Durkon's sire!

[DeliaP]

:smallbiggrin: but of course! Malack is Durkon's "father" (or rather, Durkula's) as he vampirised him.


What are you talking about? Malack is Durkon's sire!

Ah, yes!

Maybe Catgirl is Belkar's Aunt Judy? :smallbiggrin:

Hmm...

Tarquin: Nale's father.
Miron: Haley's Uncle Geoff.
Malack: Durkon's Sire.
Catgirl: Belkar's Aunt Judy.
SPG: Fyron's son (yeah, Xykon killed him. He got better) so Roy's sort-of-foster-uncle-type-figure.
So that leaves ISL as some relative of V? Maybe V's adopted progeny's birth mother!

[Turgon9357]

This explanation effectively ties many of the dangling plot threads together with few hiccups. And in the interest of serving the background story arc of learning more and more about the conspiracy that's been going on under our noses for the whole book, this is totally freaking sweet.

+1

[Turgon9357]

Also, Ian being dead wrong about being able to trust family has interesting development possibilities.

[Cake Elemental]

Uncle Geoff is obviously suspicious and hiding something. I believe he is hiding that he is a simulacrum. Of who? Miron Shewdanker.

I already posted that Geoff might be Miron here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15816060&postcount=59), but the idea with the simulacrum also sounds nice, because then we wouldn't need an explanation why Miron would waste his time in a jail cell just to keep an eye on a prisoner.

It could be the real Miron as well. After all we only know from Tarquin and Geoff (who may be Miron) that there are 2 Members of Team Tarquin in each empire.
They could be lying so nobody would suspect that there are actually 3 of them in the EoB.

[Angel Bob]

I apologize in advance. I think the tune is self-evident.

Geoffrey the Snowman
Is a very sneaky soul
He's got Ian pegged
And a wooden leg
And a heart as black as coal.

Geoffrey the Snowman,
Is a crazy guess they say.
He'd be made of snow,
But, as we all know,
D&D says that's OK.

He's just a Simulacrum
Made by Miron S. one day.
And now Ian cannot sneak out,
Because Geoff's there to say "HEY!"

Geoffrey the Snowman
Doesn't fight to well you see
Though he may be sly,
He's a caster guy
Recreated icily.

Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Look how Geoffery goes!
Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Snitchity-snitch-snitch
Passing on all he knows!

Geoffrey the Snowman
Got released one sunny day.
Tarquin did not see,
Or he did, maybe
But said nothing anyway.

Off of the dino
He and Ian quickly dived.
He said, "Find Ivy!"
"No, man, follow me!"
Was the way Ian replied.

He tried to convince Ian
That they did not need to split.
But Ian, that old curmudgeon
Said the papers were were worth [CENSORED].

Geoffrey the Snowman
Had to hurry on his way.
We may have to look
Into the next book,
But he'll be back again someday.

That was... that was beautiful.

[littlebum2002]

I think one problem with the "Miron is really Geoff, Ian's brother-in-law" theory is the letter. If Miron was indeed Geoff, the letter would have told Haley she was his "closest living relative", not "only living relative". Right?


But, again, there are two parts of the theory I think have merit and are very likely.

1)That Aunt Ivy's letter to Ian was the same letter Bellok mentioned. After all, Rich has a very good record of telling us plot points early without us knowing, and this would be another good example of that

2) that Geoff is the one telling on Ian every time he escapes. There isn't really any proof behind this one, but it seems like the only way Ian keeps getting found.
EDIT: Or, maybe, Aunt Ivy keeps telling on him, and Geoff isn't in on it at all? hmm...


How those two tie together, and how they tie in with Miron (or IF they tie in with Miron) is the question only Rich can answer.

Unless...

MIRON IS GEOFF'S EVIL TWIN!!!!

[DeliaP]

Unless...

MIRON IS GEOFF'S EVIL TWIN!!!!

OK, that fully deserves a....

DUN, DUN, DUUUUUUH!!!!

:smallsmile:

[Skarn]

Awesome theory. But I'm still going to take a few potshots at it anyway. Nothing personal :smalltongue:


Ian can't break out of jail. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0770.html) Because Geoff is telling on him.

Geoff panics when Belkar mentions Bozzock. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0779.html) This is likely because Miron was asked by Bozzock to keep Ian there and his simulacrum wants out of jail.

This actually seems quite plausible. If this is true, what better way to keep an eye on Ian than through his family (or at least what he thinks is a family member)? He would never suspect it.
The above wouldn't surprise me at all. Definitely plausible.


Look at this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) Apart from the scarf, Miron and Geoff look identical. Maybe the scarf is to prevent from giving the game away. The skin color is off by at least one tone. It's a stick figure comic, a lot of people look almost the same. :smallbiggrin:


I mentioned in another thread that Miron is a bard based on what Tarquin considers a classic team. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0819.html). A bard could lie to Ian well. If they have a decent bluff check, sure, but at some point I would expect him to screw up.

Thing is, a Simulacrum only looks like the person, they don't have any actual memories of the person. It could take a crash course on his life, but ultimately one mistake and it's over; one detail that wasn't mentioned and the Simulacrum would have no way of knowing.


Geoff's main strategy is dodging. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0746.html) Note however, that his scars do not fully heal, unlike Ian's. Simulacrum can't heal naturally.
Key word there: fully. A simulacrum can't heal at all(which means not even scarring) without being brought in for repairs. I think if Geoff disappeared for 24 hours every time he got injured, that might start to set off some red flags.

Also, I don't think the prisoners are given any magical treatment, so scarring should be permanent. The reason Ian doesn't have any is probably because he didn't get hit at all. Given that he's a high-level rogue and his unpopularity in the arena kept him off of the roster most of the time, that shouldn't be surprising.

The Giant refuses to answer a question saying that Aunt Ivy's existence is a plothole. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12299486#post12299486) Now we "know" why.
More accurately, he refused to answer a "plot hole" question that ran on the assumption that Ivy's last name was Starshine. Too presumptuous, especially when you consider that she got married, and also that a rebel leader may not necessarily use their real name.

Edit: Oh, and has it been confirmed that she's even still alive?

Look closely at Miron in strip #758 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html). Notice those wrinkles under his eyes? Where have we seen that before?
Every old person except for Tarquin :smalltongue:



Geoff threatened Elan. Would not be the first time a member of Team Tarquin tried to kill Elan without Tarquin being there to stop him (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0720.html). Maybe Uncle Geoff, as a simulacrum, did not know any better.
No, they knew he wasn't Nale, in fact they knew he was someone important to Tarquin. If Geoff were working with Tarquin, you would expect him to care.


Geoff tells Roy and Ian about the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html). Something you’d expect Tarquin would not want to be told to everyone. Easy explanation: Ian already knew. If Geoff didn't bring it up, Ian would've.


If Bozzock asked his friends to get rid of Ian, why is he ransomed back?
A ransom doesn't guarantee he would be released. Doubly so when the "ransom letter" basically said "Give us tons of money and we'll think about it." And was aimed at someone else Bozzok didn't like.

That was a pretty lame attempt at killing Elan. If he really wanted to go through with it he would have just shanked him out in the hallway. He simply saw Elan's hostage value.

It's not clear why Miron would care if Elan is dead anyway, so I don't think the scene needs explaining anyway Geoff would have to be executed for doing that, simply because not doing so would blow his cover. And yet doing so would prevent him from doing his job. And also, killing the party leader's family is probably a bad idea.


It's a sense motive check of 20 to notice a simulacrum is not the same as the original person, so it can't be too high.

And a Spot check as well as I recall. Not good odds.


I've also just realised: Haley didn't know Geoff and Ivy are in the EoB/Tyrinaria when she meets Geoff and Ian in prison. So she won't have put together the fact that Bozzock says he got some freinds to write to Ian and get him to the Western Continent, with Ian saying that it was Ivy who invited him there.... She could have put it together, but ultimately she doesn't have any proof that Bozzok wasn't just talking.

Plus, Ian is incredibly paranoid, so if even he trusts Geoff, she would have little reason not to.

[littlebum2002]

The skin color is off by at least one tone. It's a stick figure comic, a lot of people look almost the same. :smallbiggrin:


I totally just realized that, in that same strip, the fighter in Tarquin's party has the same skin tone. If he shaved his head, he would look EXACTLY like Miron. If he shaved his head and grew a goatee, he would look EXACTLY like Geoff.


Rich made a comment on this exact same topic before. There are only so many different looks a person can have in a stick figure comic. It's almost guaranteed that, eventually, you will have 2 completely unrelated characters who look just like each other.

[Gift Jeraff]

It's almost guaranteed that, eventually, you will have 2 completely unrelated characters who look just like each other.

But 2 characters directly tied to the same subplot, first appearing within 20 strips of each other? I don't know...

[Ellye]

The comic made it quite clear that Geoff is in the prison to keep Ian there. He's working for Bozzock it seems. Things make (almost) perfect sense in this way (the only thing missing is: what does Ian have to gain that is so valuable that he would accept wasting his life in an arena jail?).

Geoff secretly being one of Tarquin's buddies wouldn't make much sense. He was the one who sent Ian to the Western Continent in the first place. Why would he, if not for Bozzock?

[137beth]

The comic made it quite clear that Geoff is in the prison to keep Ian there. He's working for Bozzock it seems. Things make (almost) perfect sense in this way (the only thing missing is: what does Ian have to gain that is so valuable that he would accept wasting his life in an arena jail?).

Geoff secretly being one of Tarquin's buddies wouldn't make much sense. He was the one who sent Ian to the Western Continent in the first place. Why would he, if not for Bozzock?
Maybe Tarquin is trying to expand into the Northern lands, and this is part of his needlessly complicated plan to do it?

[littlebum2002]

Maybe Tarquin is trying to expand into the Northern lands, and this is part of his needlessly complicated plan to do it?

I doubt it. Tarquin seems to have absolutely no desire for a large empire that will attract the attention of powerful enemies.

[Mike Havran]

I am not sure Miron's Simulacrum would explain Tarquin's secret plan to Roy so enthusiastically as is displayed in 758. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)

[Grey Watcher]

I am not sure Miron's Simulacrum would explain Tarquin's secret plan to Roy so enthusiastically as is displayed in 758. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html)

Maybe he figured that if Ian was going to spill the beans anyway, he might as well play along and maintain his cover. Plus he probably didn't expect that any of them would ever be released and would eventually die horribly in the arena.

[Fish]

Just to unnecessarily complicate the theorizing: there could be a simulacrum and this could still be the real Geoff.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe Miron/Geoff wants to usurp Tarquin, and this is all part of some crazy plan to gather people like Ian, keep them in separate prisons so they don't interact until the time is right, and then let them all out at once.

[Kornaki]

And a Spot check as well as I recall. Not good odds.

It's actually spot (vs disguise self of the caster) OR sense motive vs DC 20

[rgd20]

Just to unnecessarily complicate the theorizing: there could be a simulacrum and this could still be the real Geoff.

It could be a long con, geoff has always been the simulacrum. Also we never see him eat (last panel) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html) .

[Ghost Nappa]

Thing is, a Simulacrum only looks like the person, they don't have any actual memories of the person. It could take a crash course on his life, but ultimately one mistake and it's over; one detail that wasn't mentioned and the Simulacrum would have no way of knowing.

No no no no. That doesn't matter, Geoff is related by marriage right? Then it doesn't matter what his previous history to the marriage is, apart from being plausible enough to the Starshines to be an actual person. Hell, for all we know this Snowman has existed for years and years before the need for Geoff the Snowman and has relying on those memories as pre-marriage stories. Everything after the marriage the Starshines are aware of.


I really like this theory. While it's not perfect it has a lot of subtle support for it for a lot of things that while odd, I never put together. Apart from someone tearing through it like wet-tissue paper (which I don't foresee happening...apart from Word of Giant) I can't wait to see how much of this proves to be true.

[Chronos]

I think pretty much everyone by now accepts that Geoff is working for (or at least, in cooperation with) Bozzak to keep Ian in prison and out of Cliffport. Folks figured that out pretty much immediately after the relevant strips were posted. All the rest of this, though, makes no sense whatsoever. Geoff and Miron are both bald humans, and therefore one must be a simulacrum of the other? Huh? Because that's the only point of resemblance between them. We might as well say Roy is a simulacrum, too.

[Skarn]

No no no no. That doesn't matter, Geoff is related by marriage right? Then it doesn't matter what his previous history to the marriage is, apart from being plausible enough to the Starshines to be an actual person. Hell, for all we know this Snowman has existed for years and years before the need for Geoff the Snowman and has relying on those memories as pre-marriage stories. Everything after the marriage the Starshines are aware of.

I really like this theory. While it's not perfect it has a lot of subtle support for it for a lot of things that while odd, I never put together. Apart from someone tearing through it like wet-tissue paper (which I don't foresee happening...apart from Word of Giant) I can't wait to see how much of this proves to be true.
You're assuming that no one knew Geoff before they got married, even though he is clearly familiar with Bozzok and the thieves' guild.

I can't blame you though, the alternative is that Aunt Ivy married a snowman who happens to look like one of her major foes without ever realizing either of those points. And Ian also never noticed anything odd despite being paranoid and stuck with the guy for years.

But who knows, maybe the caster invented a new type of Simulacrum that can heal naturally and work in an anti-magic field and fool close relatives of the subject over long periods of time, which probably makes it an epic-level spell of some sort. Anything is possible, right? :smalltongue:

[Grey Watcher]

I think pretty much everyone by now accepts that Geoff is working for (or at least, in cooperation with) Bozzak to keep Ian in prison and out of Cliffport. Folks figured that out pretty much immediately after the relevant strips were posted. All the rest of this, though, makes no sense whatsoever. Geoff and Miron are both bald humans, and therefore one must be a simulacrum of the other? Huh? Because that's the only point of resemblance between them. We might as well say Roy is a simulacrum, too.

Remember that time people thought Roy was infiltrating the bandits (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html)? Good times.

[Nemeean_lion]

The part where Geoff is working for Bozzok to keep Ian in jail is pretty much 100% by now, there have been many "Ivy is a plant" threads back when those characters were featured in strips, so it's nothing new.

This theory however focuses on the fact that Geoff is Miron's simulacrum. Frankly I also thought it was a bit far fetched to compare 2 characters just because they're bald and have a similar complexion, but then I saw the wrinkles beneath the eyes, and I started being less skeptical. There's also the thing that Miron's scarf conveniently hides Geoff's most distinguishing features, his scar and his beard, which could be used later in the reveal.

However I think there's something we haven't estabilished properly here. When Ian and Geoff run off from Tarquin's dinosaur, Geoff suggests they go to aunt Ivy, probably so that he can arrange for their recapture. That suggests that Ian has seen Aunt Ivy, and thinks she is still alive. It can't be just that Geoff faked her writing. Is Aunt Ivy also an illusion?

In either case, I also subscribe to this theory. I'm not sure it's a simulacrum, but it is very possible that it's some sort of duplicate of Miron or Miron himself. So far i've been a fan of Gift Jeraff's "V killed Tarquin's wife with Familicide" theory and of "Prisoner dude is Ian Starshine" and those 2 have proven to be true while they seemed just as unlikely.

[Arcanist]

This theory is both ridiculous and frightening at how possible it can be... What next? The Ranch Elemental, might secretly be Belker's father? V was Z the WHOLE time? Or, my personal favorite, This entire comic is Xykon's dream and he's really just an average D&D player living in a brownstone in Brooklyn and every time a gate shatters it's just Xykon's J-Goth girlfriend trying to wake him up? :smallconfused:

[Mad Humanist]

Look at this. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html) Apart from the scarf, Miron and Geoff look identical. Maybe the scarf is to prevent from giving the game away.

Gut reaction is that this is a clever but stupid theory. However the physical resemblance is strong. The baldness whilst matching is not exactly data rich. The lines under the eyes match - in fact I had never noticed those lines before.

However Miron's skin colour is shade darker than Geoff's. Using a graphics tool, Geoff has R198, G170, B147. Miron has R188, G158, B134.

[Ark_X01]

Gut reaction is that this is a clever but stupid theory. However the physical resemblance is strong. The baldness whilst matching is not exactly data rich. The lines under the eyes match - in fact I had never noticed those lines before.

However Miron's skin colour is shade darker than Geoff's. Using a graphics tool, Geoff has R198, G170, B147. Miron has R188, G158, B134.

As previously stated, the prison life has made both Geoff and Ian's skin decay a bit due to malnutrition and become more pale. This is mentioned directly in the comic (for comparison: between Ian and Flashback Ian-with-red-hair, the skin is different).

[Nemeean_lion]

Ok, I just bet 100 crowns in the Roaches betting thread on Miron's and Geoff's resemblance not being just a coincidence because of the simplistic art. You better not let me down Valley!

[ti'esar]

Or, my personal favorite, This entire comic is Xykon's dream and he's really just an average D&D player living in a brownstone in Brooklyn and every time a gate shatters it's just Xykon's J-Goth girlfriend trying to wake him up? :smallconfused:

Good lord, it was under our noses all along! (http://www.giantitp.com/Images/fanart/ootslate1.gif)

Seriously, though, I still don't understand why people think this theory is so plausible. As has been said,, it's pretty safe to assume at this point that Geoff is working with Bozzok in some capacity, but everything else seems to hang on two characters bearing a slight resemblance in a comic with a fairly simplistic art style.

[littlebum2002]

Since Tarquin just announced a plot-critical reveal that concerns Haley, I think it's a sage net (EDIT: also a safe bet", stupid autocorrect) that you'll find the answer to your prediction soon.

On that note, if you're right, and you figured out the plot twist only a few strips before it happened, Rich probably won't be very happy lol.

[Nimrod's Son]

As previously stated, the prison life has made both Geoff and Ian's skin decay a bit due to malnutrition and become more pale. This is mentioned directly in the comic (for comparison: between Ian and Flashback Ian-with-red-hair, the skin is different).
Why would a creature made of ice suffer from malnutrition or lack of sunlight?

[Bulldog Psion]

The best part of this thread is the "Frosty the Snowman" spoof. :smallbiggrin:

[Silva Stormrage]

This has to be one of the more random theories I have heard :smallbiggrin: I doubt it actually is true though.

[Sniffnoy]

This is probably irrelevant, but I can't help but notice that Nale referred to Laurin as "'Aunt' Laurin"...