[3.5] Rebuild help request for 12th level character who's a Battleguard of Tempus

[ericp65]

OK, here's a character I greatly enjoy playing, but with whom I'm dissatisfied in her level progression. Please share any suggestions for a near-op rebuild.

Before I discovered that Battleguard of Tempus exists in issue 317 of Dragon Magazine, I had to figure out a suitably themed PrC. I chose Warpriest. So, her progression was:

Luinloth (female half-elf (Moon)) of Tempus, CN
Ability scores: 16 17 18 16 18 17 (includes increases for character levels)
Fighter 4/Cleric 5/Warpriest 3

She's light on gear, currently owning only a suit of full plate +3 (light fortification), a battle axe +2 (mighty cleaving), and a spiked gauntlet, as well as a cloak of resistance +2, amulet of health +4, belt of giant STR +4, and two ioun stones (deep red, and incandescent blue).

Hey, I was naive :smallwink: What's a more enlightened approach? I'd like to swap out Warpriest for Battleguard, and the number of levels in a given class don't concern me. All published materials are on the table, but I don't do gestalt. What say ye, Playgrounders?

[Saintheart]

Battleguard of Tempus is a 5/10 divine caster class, i.e. you lose a cleric level every 2 levels you go up in that class. Given cleric spells are basically the most potent abilities you really have, I would actually pull out most if not all of those Fighter levels to backfill the lost cleric casting. Yes, you get a crapload of feats from Fighter, but absent Power Attack or a specific fighting style to optimise -- whether it's TWF, two-handed weapon, AoO specialist, or lockdown specialist -- there's no point when you have cleric levels.

As to what to replace the fighter levels with: more cleric ... and when you can qualify for it, Ordained Champion out of Complete Champion looks right up your alley. It's of a similar bent to Battleguard of Tempus, so much so that many of the prereqs are the same down to War domain casting (which Battleguard requires and Ordained Champion gives you outright) and it also advances divine spellcasting (as a 3/5, i.e. 6/10) and gives you a small raft of fighter-y abilities -- including the ability to channel some divine spells into attacks like a Duskblade would. The only stumbling block is that normally only Hextor or Heironeous worshippers can access him, but Hextor, Heironeous, and Tempus all have the War domain and a War focus, so it shouldn't be that hard to convince your DM. Don't worry about the "lost" BAB: 4 levels in Ordained Champion will give you the +4 BAB required for Battleguard even ignoring your cleric levels.

Looking at Battleguard itself -- for future planning I'd seriously consider a break point at level 6 of that PrC. You get Die Hard as a feat from Ordained Champion, and while channelling a +3 ability would be nice, there are tons and tons of spells at a cleric's disposal to match that and better it, particularly if you channel spells using Ordained Champion. Going to full 10 in Battleguard, even acknowledging the flavour reason for taking the class, is way too many levels lost.

For feats -- Able Learner, Practiced Spellcaster, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell). Able Learner is almost a necessity for the absolutely stupid number of non-cleric'y skills and skill points Battleguard will cost you. Consider asking for retraining it once you've got enough points to qualify for Battleguard. Cloistered Cleric, inconsistent though it sounds, will give you a swag of precious skill points and a free Knowledge Domain, which then powers the thinking man's Weapon Focus: Knowledge Devotion. And there's not much you can get from a level in Fighter that you can't get from a couple of flaw feats.

For equipment -- go back and look carefully at cleric spells and durations before buying your equipment again, especially on hour/level spells since you're at level 12. For example, you have Magic Vestment as a War domain spell. At CL 12 (and this is why you have Practiced Spellcaster) that means your armour and shield now have +3 enhancement bonuses each for 12 hours, i.e. for more or less the entirety of the adventuring day. If you really must have the enhancement bonuses 24/7, cast the spell as Extend Spell and it has a 24 hour duration. Your gold can be used for much, much more useful stuff than overpriced enhancement bonuses that you can provide for yourself with your spells. +4 STR gear? Look at the War domain spell Divine Power, which, again, can be Persisted. The +6 STR enhancement bonus subsumes your Gauntlets of Ogre Power forever. You would be far better served getting a Belt of Battle for the same price and which makes you considerably more fearsome, because more actions = more ownage per round. You are in the Forgotten Realms, i.e. arguably the most broken caster-biased setting WOTC has ever put out, so use it.

Honestly, personally, if it were me I'd ditch Battleguard completely in favour of Ordained Champion because Ord. Champ. only costs you two levels of spellcasting to pick up all its benefits, as opposed to Battleguard which would sweat you for five. There's a very, very big difference in casting level five spells on the battlefield as opposed to level three -- and Battleguard firmly puts you in the latter category.

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Battleguard 3. And so on to Battleguard 6, then take more cleric levels. But I'd personally make it Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Cleric X/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1, etc, etc.

[Eldariel]

I definitely agree Ordained Champion should be exactly what you want. Adapt to Tempus (basically the same as any warrior deity anyways) and it's perfect.

Usually Ordained Champions follow up with one of the full BAB 9/10 casting classes; Fist of Raziel [Book of Exalted Deeds], Knight of the Raven [Expedition to Castle Ravenloft] or some such (Hexer [Masters of the Wild], Windwalker [Faiths and Pantheons], etc. too). You could take a look and ask DM if you could refluff one for Tempus.


The primary advantage of this approach is that you don't need to worry about casting Divine Power for the attack bonuses. This averts the use of Divine Metamagic to keep your buffs up all day (which is a bit high on the power scale for many games though if you want to be really strong, feel free). Of course, if you can't find a 9/10 casting full BAB class, just going Cleric works too. You don't need Divine Power per ce; there are many other bonuses available.

Either way, you definitely want to get as much Cleric casting as you want (3 levels is the absolute maximum I'd be willing to lose and that's only 'cause Ordained Champion gives so many nice abilities), and use your spells to buff your combat ability. Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might are the big personal buffs that help you.

The general buffs "Greater Magic Weapon" and "Magic Vestment" also keep you buffed all day and "Magic Circle Against Evil/Good/Law/Whatever" is 10 min/level so up for a long while and really helps too. Freedom of Movement & Death Ward are good general purpose utility spells too and of course you want Air Walk. Resist Energy lasts a long time and can be cast plenty too.

Outside Core you get Spikes [Spell Compendium] if you have a wooden weapon (suppose you want to stick to Tempus's favored weapons tho), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful [Spell Compendium], Surge of Fortune [Complete Champion], Holy Star [Spell Compendium], Conviction [Spell Compendium], Recitation [Spell Compendium], etc. giving you a variety of options to boost yourself. This is why Persistent Spell is so useful too; pick the best and keep them up all day.


Equipment: Strand of Prayer Beads (especially the Beads of Karma) are insanely useful for buffing all day (extra point for each of your equipment from Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Weapon, extra dispel resistance and such too). If your teammates get you Pearls of Power, you can cast said buffs on their equipment every day too.

Something to Quicken spells for a cheap price, for example Circlet of Rapid Casting [Magic Item Compendium], is definitely useful. And yeah, you don't need naturally enhanced weapons and armor since you can enhance them yourself; +1 weapons and armor with abilities are more useful to you.

[ericp65]

Wow, awesome stuff! I've been wondering about how specialty priests of the Realms should be handled, since there are no "official" updates to them in 3.5e. At first, I thought Divine Champion could be used for each PrC, with a little customizing per deity, but that class is a bit lacking. Another approach is to take an appropriately themed PrC and simply rename it to apply to the appropriate specialty priest, and this approach looks better to me. There's probably no single class that serves best for servants of all the Realms deities; in the case of Mielikki, there doesn't appear to be any class that fits the bill, but certain kinds of builds might represent her three orders of servants.

Luinloth comes from Silverymoon and surrounding lands, and has never been away from Faerun. She takes the role in a party of military commander and advisor, and is always concerned that her companions have the best war gear they can get, and that it be kept in the best condition. She follows the custom of her faith in always wearing the most protective armor she can get, and uses a battle axe and spiked gauntlet whenever possible. She goes either without a helmet, or with an open-faced helm, and prefers her armor to be blood-splattered, scored, and dented, while still offering full protection. She's always preoccupied with strategy and tactics, treatment of prisoners, and readiness for battle.

[Saintheart]

Here's a little secret: most character concepts can be made to work by reflavouring or refluffing an existing character template under the rules. All it takes is a semi-open-minded DM who isn't a total nerd about complying to the letter with the Grand History of the Realms.

Take your character being concerned with strategy and tactics and so forth. That's a good hook to start her off as a Cloistered Cleric: how do you get to be a good military tactician if you haven't been doing a lot of book reading to start with? Just say she went to the War College of Silverymoon or something similar.

Admittedly that provides the problem you're only proficient with light armor and simple weapons, but a single level of Fighter solves that problem, being the "outdoorsy" part of your training as a cleric of Tempus. (On that, given the preoccupation with strategy and whatnot, you might want to look at the Red Knight, too.)

Another possible refluffed prestige class to consider which might suit your character: Purple Dragon Knight out of the FRCS itself. Has the leadership aspect to it and the morale-boosting abilities a Battleguard has. So what if it's designed for Cormyr's guard? Just ask your DM if you can create the Tempus Awesome Dragon Guard which just so happens to have the same abilities as the Purple Dragon Knights. And if you can convince your DM to give you five cleric caster levels slapped onto a Purple Dragon Knight's abilities, you have everything and more the Battleguard conceivably has.

Don't think that everything your character does has to be reflected mechanically in the rules or on the Character Sheet. I get that the character would be concerned with seeing his buddies have the best gear available, but when you look at how Battleguard mechanically presents that, it's pretty weak even on that: you've got some identify spells, and the Enchant Weapon thing, but they don't apply to your friends' weapons - only to one weapon, which I suppose could be a friend's if you really wanted it to. Craft is a class skill for just about everyone under the sun if you really want to make stuff, but Battleguard doesn't turn you into a forger of magic weapons or anything like that.

The reason we hammer "DON'T LOSE CLERIC LEVELS" is mainly because D&D 3.5 should have had the words "Caster Edition" as its subtitle. Particularly given you have access to all books, there is a mind-boggling array of options for clerics who want to cast spells, many of which turn out superior to most of the magic items in the book, and many of which turn out superior to the Battleguard's abilities. And the progression in power from level to level for clerics (and mages, really) tends to be geometric in rate.

I'm not trying to turn your character into a Cleric 20 - just pointing out that as the levels go on, mundane fighter-y sorts of abilities become less and less significant in winning battles compared with the magic a cleric or mage can put out. My personal view is that that erosion starts as early as players being able to cast fifth level spells, so at level 12 others in your party will probably have that capacity. Don't get too left behind, that's all I'm saying.

[ericp65]

Makes good sense. Yes, Luinloth studied plenty before taking to the adventuring life. I see that a little thinking outside the box will bring her more advantages. What I liked most about Battleguard was that it gave her the ability to rage, and to "bless" her companions with that rage, without taking Barbarian levels. Barbarian doesn't fit her concept. She loves getting all worked up, giving a loud, crazed cry of "Tempus!!!", and charging into battle :) Sometimes, she can be diplomatic, in a warfare context, too.

She's called Luinloth the Insane by some, due to her unpredictable nature. She had a brother who was studying and training to become a priest of Tempus, but she always saw something lacking in him. One day, he turned up dead, clearly by foul play, but there were no witnesses to the event. Luinloth admits to nothing. "Who can say what goes on when no one else is nearby? It could easily have been an accident." She avoids denying being the murderess, always giving vague responses when questioned about it. After all, any number of things could have happened during his training, right? She was all too eager to take his place, though, in training and becoming a priestess of Tempus.

Not that it matters for this discussion, but she resembles Nicole de Boer (http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1592/m7gu.jpg), only with long hair, gold flecks in the irises, and creamy white skin with blue accents.

[ericp65]

So, I'm now allowed to use a refluffed Ordained Champion as a complete replacement for Battleguard of Tempus, with rage ability replacing Modified Spontaneous Casting. She can still use "Battleguard" as her official title. Sweet! It appears that 4th or 5th character level is the earliest entry, as 7 ranks in Knowledge (religion) are required. With Cloistered Cleric 1 as 1st level, she still needs to fit in a class that will allow access to Weapon Focus (battleaxe). My first thought was to dip Fighter, but now I'm wondering if a dip into Warblade would be better, as it's probably more thematically appropriate, and Weapon Aptitude will allow the character to gain that Weapon Focus prereq for Ordained Champion.

She could either fill her 2nd and 3rd levels with Warblade, or add another class. Not sure which way to go right there. Once this is sorted, I'll have an easier time filling in the rest of her levels up to 12, and she'll be ready for her next adventure.

[ericp65]

Would it be considered bad form to give a character levels in both Cleric and Cloistered Cleric, or could the two be thematically reconciled by stating that the character began with CC, then wanted to take things more from study to practice in the field by taking C? I don't want to miss out on too many divine caster levels, and I want to represent Luinloth as a well-capable warmistress of Tempus.

[Eldariel]

Would it be considered bad form to give a character levels in both Cleric and Cloistered Cleric, or could the two be thematically reconciled by stating that the character began with CC, then wanted to take things more from study to practice in the field by taking C? I don't want to miss out on too many divine caster levels, and I want to represent Luinloth as a well-capable warmistress of Tempus.

Usually would be frowned upon. Would probably just be easiest to go straight Cleric instead and rely on your Int + Human bonus to get enough skillpoints to do what you want. Alternatively, use feats to enhance your skill list (This compilation lists ways to do so (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9071.0)).

You get your Battleaxe proficiency and Weapon Focus from War-domain anyways so that shouldn't be a problem; if Luinloth prefers lighter armor anyways (such as Mithril Breastplate; with her dexterity this probably makes sense anyways if she were to use +4 Dexterity Gloves, or a spell), you'd be set with no class dip whatsoever. Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Whatever Rest.


Also, I suggest putting her level-up score increases to Wisdom instead of spreading them around; it's generally more useful to rely on your base values for everything else and just pump your main score (in this case, your casting score) with all your level-up pumps. This ought to be within the scope of a rebuild. This gets you more spells which can then, in turn, buff everything else.

[ericp65]

Now this is getting complicated *L* OK, so maybe the progression should be: Cleric 5/Contemplative 1/Ordained Champion 5/something else 1...but what? Not sure yet. Contemplative will allow her to add Chaos domain. Maybe another level of Cleric?

Also have to redo her feat selections. I gave her the Education regional feat, which counts all skills as class skills in every class she takes. Thinking she should max Diplomacy. I use Traits from Iron Heroes, so both her mental/physical Trait selections went to Wise (+2 to WIS). You can sacrifice your second Trait to negate the related -2 to CHA. For her 1st character level feat, I gave her Martial Study (White Raven: War Master's Charge). As she has no class levels in Crusader, Swordsage, or Warblade, her Initiator Level = 1/2 her character level.

From Arcana Evolved, she gets a Ceremonial feat at first level, so I gave her Priest (+2 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate checks involving religion). For flaws, she gets Shaky and Hedonist, with bonus feats Improved Initiative and Extend Spell. I'll plug in Leadership at 6th level, and that leaves five more feats to select.

Still pondering what class would be best for her 12th character level. I see that many divine PrCs aren't full caster, and that concerns me.

[ericp65]

If it makes a difference in what all I should give this character, Luinloth has been in adventures that involved battles against giants and ettins, and against small military units. She's been in parties that have adventured on and under the seas, and had interactions with kuo-toa and sahuagin. The rest I don't recall just now.

[ericp65]

Sorry I haven't been better organized in presenting my information.

[ericp65]

I found a different, 10-level Battleguard of Tempus PrC (http://stryfewind.angelfire.com/battleguard.html) on the 'net, and it looks much closer to the 2nd Ed original kit than what was presented in Dragon #317. Now I'm wondering if that should be merged with Ordained Champion to synthesize an improved, Tempus-flavored PrC, or if it should be used as-is. There's no divine caster level increase at first level, but there is for levels 2 - 10. Entry requirements are a bit steep, but the class looks very attractive for my purposes here. Thoughts?

[Saintheart]

In one respect it's superior to Ordained Champion because it's a 9/10 divine caster class. Ord. Champ. loses you two caster levels at a minimum. And for the same reason, it's vastly superior to the Dragon 317 Battleguard. Also gets a d10 hit dice, which is nice, but it's pointing you firmly in the direction of the front line.

Its prereqs are reeeeasonably straightforward, though it's unlikely you'll ever need to use Craft Magic Arms and Armor unless the party mage doesn't feel like taking the feat and people want to give you lots of cash to make their stuff for them. Power Attack you'll probably be taking somewhere back down near level 1 or so anyway, because it's almost de rigeur for a frontline fighter and compulsory for a frontline fighter who uses a two-handed weapon like Greataxe. Hardest imposts are the BAB +6 and War domain which are designed to make sure you don't qualify early for it as a regular cleric - but Ordained Champion will definitely get you there.

The second level ability is nice for melee types -- basically, get all your frontliners and you a free Barbarian Rage once per day. If your DM was overly nice s/he might say this rage stacks with the party barbarian's own class rage, but I wouldn't allow that myself. What I would allow as a DM is that having that ability -- described as "identical to barbarian rage" -- then allows you to qualify for other feats or abilities which require barbarian rage to qualify, e.g. Intimidating Rage or the like. I also take the reading to mean the allies affected by the rage don't take fatigue after the rage ends - you take 5 subdual damage per ally when the rage ends, which seems to pay for it instead. Still, as said, it's a once per day thing -- and a maximum of twice per day if you push through to level 7.

The rest of it I think is a bit "meh" past level 5. Diehard you'd get from Ord. Champ. Heroes Feast is a cleric spell; this particular ability would only be useful if once every ten days you decide you need to feed an entire army. Fear immunity is a nice toy to pick up at level 5, that's basically a Paladin-lite capability. Wrath of Tempus improves your rage, but if your DM allows you to qualify for rage-based feats on the back of Rage of Tempus you can get close to the equivalent of this ability with a feat expenditure. Shield of Tempus is nice for the mind-affecting immunity and +5 dodge bonus which stacks with any other dodge you can come up with, but your Will save is already going to be substantial from entry via Cleric and the fact you'll be pumping WIS as your primary stat. And all those abilities only function once per day. Odds are on you're going to wind up fighting stuff more than once a day at level 12 and above.

And be very aware of the code of conduct appended at the front. Some of that comes close to the Lawful Stupid interpretation of the paladin's code of conduct, which might be unfun to play.

Basically: this is a 9/10 divine caster class, which if taken would be in keeping with Eldariel's very good advice to such a PrC after finishing out Ordained Champion. This Battleguard has one or two nice-ish toys up to level 5, but for play past level 12 or so once or twice-per-day abilities don't really cut it in my personal and entirely non-expert view. If you somehow convinced your DM to shoehorn in Courage of Tempus (Fear Immunity) and the Rage of Tempus useable as often as a barbarian rage onto an Ordained Champion chassis, I would yet again ditch this Battleguard because you'd have all its principal benefits without having to stick around for ten levels or so.

[ericp65]

So, if allowed, the character could take her Ordained Champion levels (without needing alterations to the class) and then enter this version of Battleguard, if and when rage details are sorted.

Yes, the way I've played the character, and the way the DMs under whom I've used her have handled it, allies don't take the HP hit when the rage ends, but the Battleguard suffers the 5 pts per ally hit. It's never been much hassle.

I'll run this up the flagpole, and see if I get a salute :)

[Eldariel]

Yeah, that Battleguard seems fine. I'd go Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Battleguard of Tempus (you only need 7 Knowledge: Religion to enter Ordained Champion so you can enter on level 5). This way you should have enough levels to take for basically the rest of your career and you're only 2 BAB behind which should be okay.

Feats, well, you obviously need prerequisites. Power Attack & War-domain will handle those nicely. After that, e.g. Devotion-feats [Complete Champion], Divine Might [Complete Divine]/Divine Spell Power [Complete Divine], some metamagic (Quicken Spell, Chain Spell [Complete Arcane], Extend Spell), Practiced Spellcaster [Complete Arcane] and Holy Warrior [Complete Champion] would be my feats of choice. Some nice damage boosts and solid boosts to your casting.

[ericp65]

Now things are shaping up. The 10-level Battleguard PrC is approved, and I like the progression of Cloistered Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/Battleguard of Tempus 3 to fill all 12 character levels. This yields BAB +9 and CL 9, if I ran the numbers correctly, and saves to F +11, R +3, W +9. Got every feat I wanted for her except for Quicken Spell, so I'll add that the next time she gets a bonus feat.

Domains are Protection and War, domain feat is Strength Devotion. If I've screwed her out of Knowledge Devotion, I'll see if she can pick that up later.

I'm thinking some nightsticks would be good, if her WBL will permit. She's got 88k gp to burn on gear, and the items mentioned earlier (belt of battle, strand of prayer beads, circlet of rapid casting) look really good, so I'll see how well I can equip Luinloth, and she'll be ready for the next adventure.

Any further input is welcome, otherwise I'm satisfied with this, and I thank you all very much!

[Eldariel]

Whatever you do, don't forget to pick Practiced Spellcaster as a feat. Getting your Caster Level base to 12 is really nice for Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment/etc.

[Saintheart]

...also, unless I've misread your post, you might need to recheck how domain feats work.

If your chosen domains are Protection and War, you don't get a free feat slot to put a domain feat in unless you give up access to one of your actual domains -- i.e. to get a domain feat without spending one of your normal once-per-three-level slots, you have to sacrifice access to one of the domains you already have, i.e.e. you could only pick Protection Devotion or War Devotion. Strength Devotion you can get, but only in one of those bonus feat slots that come to you once every three levels.

Cloistered Cleric gives you the Knowledge domain for free, remember, but at the same time it's not a good idea to trade off the domain for Knowledge Devotion because what powers Knowledge Devotion are a wide array of Knowledge skills. Instead, put Knowledge Devotion in one of your "ordinary" feat slots.

[ericp65]

Whatever you do, don't forget to pick Practiced Spellcaster as a feat. Getting your Caster Level base to 12 is really nice for Greater Magic Weapon/Magic Vestment/etc.

Practiced Spellcaster selected :smallsmile:

[ericp65]

...also, unless I've misread your post, you might need to recheck how domain feats work.

If your chosen domains are Protection and War, you don't get a free feat slot to put a domain feat in unless you give up access to one of your actual domains -- i.e. to get a domain feat without spending one of your normal once-per-three-level slots, you have to sacrifice access to one of the domains you already have, i.e.e. you could only pick Protection Devotion or War Devotion. Strength Devotion you can get, but only in one of those bonus feat slots that come to you once every three levels.

Cloistered Cleric gives you the Knowledge domain for free, remember, but at the same time it's not a good idea to trade off the domain for Knowledge Devotion because what powers Knowledge Devotion are a wide array of Knowledge skills. Instead, put Knowledge Devotion in one of your "ordinary" feat slots.

The way I read the rules, Cloistered Cleric gives all the features of Cleric, except where noted in the text. Cleric gives two deity-associated domains, Cloistered Cleric gives Knowledge domain as a bonus (as you mentioned), and Ordained Champion grants War domain as a third domain. If the character already has War domain (which is the case with Luinloth), you may choose any other domain granted by your deity as your third domain. You may choose a Domain feat at any level. So, Luinloth's three domains are Chaos, Protection, and War, and her Domain feat is Strength Devotion. Looks like that's all she can take (and so, Knowledge Devotion is a no-go), so I'm satisfied with that.