Fighter Advice

[Nightgaun7]

An earlier thread persuaded my little 3.5 brain that playing a fighter is a viable and fun option. To that end I have decided to make one. problem is, I'm not quite sure what I want to do as a Fighter.

Starting at level 11.
Race is Human but I am open to suggestions.
We get a free expertise and defense feat.

Rest of party is a monk, an avenger/monk, a paladin, a warlord and a seeker.

I am thinking that I would like to make a fighter that hits hard and locks down enemies well. I don't really know what a paladin can do so I am not sure what I need to cover. I guess the biggest question is what weapon do I use? I think hammers and axes would both be good for someone who needs to be tough.

Also, I need to pick a theme and paragon path. I have penciled in guardian for the theme and Son of mercy for the paragon path but I really don't know how good those are for what I want

[Tegu8788]

What you need is a controller. And a grappler would do that well. I'll link an example that was hilarious to watch.

Here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14572427&postcount=5).

[masteraleph]

Fighters and Paladins have a fair amount of overlap, since both are marking defenders. Fighters have some additional tricks though- they're really sticky out of the bag, and they have a number of multiattacks, so they do more damage on most attacks than do Paladins. You need to make sure not to mark the same creatures, since marks generally overwrite each other.

In terms of which weapon to use, you need to decide whether you want a 1 handed weapon, 2 weapons, or a 2 handed weapon (though it sounds from what you're saying like a 2 handed weapon might be the way to go). It may well also be worth it to use a feat for proficiency with a Superior weapon (or you can stick with a military weapon, which you have proficiency in to start with). In light of that, I'd suggest the following (with notes about what each type of weapon is good at):

*Axes- either Gouge (+2 proficiency, 2d6 brutal 1 damage- brutal 1 means you reroll 1s) or Execution Axe (+2 proficiency, 1 d12 brutal 2, high crit). If you go with Axes you probably want a high CON for Savage Axe, but note that STR/CON is a bad combination (both apply to Fortitude and leave your Will and Reflex defenses in the toilet). Both of these are Superior weapons

*Flail- No really good 2 handers here. Heavy flail is a Proficiency +2, 2d6 2 hander, and a military weapon, so you're proficient, but I wouldn't go with it. If you want flails, go with an Alhulak (+3 proficiency, 1d8, military) or a Triple Headed Flail (+3 proficiency, 1d10, superior). Both of these are 1 handers, but flail-and-shield is a definite thing. Flails have some interesting feats, especially for knocking enemies prone.

*Hammers- Again with the CON issues, but they're better weapons than the axes. Craghammers (proficiency +2, 1d10, brutal 2, 1 handed, superior), Mordenkrads (proficiency +2, 2d6, brutal 1, superior, 2 hander), and Warhammers (prof +2, 1d10, military 1 hander). You grab feats like Hammer Rhythm.

*Heavy blades- big swords. Not as many cool feats, but still iconic. Fullblades (+3 prof, 1d12, high crit, superior, 2 handed) or Longswords (+3 prof, 1d8, military 1 handed) are probably your best bet here.

*Polearms- again, some proning tricks here, though you need to commit to them more fully (picking powers with forced movement). Best bet here is Greatspear (+3 prof, 1d10, Reach, superior 2 handed). Note that it's also a spear, so you can dip into spear support too.

I tend to think that flails are in some way the most powerful (proning is powerful, especially as a fighter), or polearms (if you're willing to be selective with your powers and want a bit higher damage). If you want pure damage, Mordenkrad would be my choice then, though the Axes have what to be said for them.

In terms of themes, you're spot on- Guardian is doing exactly what you want to be doing.

PPs- Son of Mercy is great. If you do that, make sure to pick up World Serpent's Grasp (again, proning). Polearm Master instead if you go Polearms and are willing to pick powers that work nicely with it, but it makes the whole proning thing easier, . Alternatively, Adroit Explorer is a very powerful (human only) PP. The other option is to take Soldier of the Faith as a multiclass feat (Paladin) and then take the Champion of Order PP.

I think that's all of my random thoughts here...I'll chime in tomorrow if I think of anything else.

[Kurald Galain]

I would recommend a reach weapon fighter with Polearm Gamble. If you use a spear for that, a decent paragon path is Draeven Marauder, which doubles your crit range.

What your party does need, though, is a controller. A seeker is not a controller, and neither is a grapple fighter. I think a wizard, invoker, or druid would be a better addition to this team than a fighter.

[Nightgaun7]

What is a seeker then?

[Nightgaun7]

Let's say for the sake of discussion I decide to stick with the fighter. in that case what should I do to complement the Paladin and the rest of the party? The fighter has to actually hit enemies to mark them whereas I understand the Paladin can mark people anywhere?

[neonchameleon]

I am thinking that I would like to make a fighter that hits hard and locks down enemies well. I don't really know what a paladin can do so I am not sure what I need to cover

Paladins are the weakest defenders at lockdown in the game. What they are is large walls of meat with healing capacity and the ability to distract enemies. But paladin challenges don't do much damage so enemies being played hard are safer ignoring paladins than any other kind of defender.


I guess the biggest question is what weapon do I use?

There are five basic choices here.

1: Polearms. The paragon polearm fighter is ... interesting and a very specialised build with two words to describe it. "Batter up!" With the right feats whenever an enemy moves next to you you get a free swing, throwing them a couple of squares and knocking them prone. On your turn you can make terrifying whirlwind attacks bouncing every enemy in a couple of squares of you off walls.

2: Weapon and fist (a.k.a. Brawler Fighters). You saw the old 90s Hercules. Like that. Because suplexing dragons is cool and because if you've grabbed someone they aren't going anywhere - it's a pretty tight lockdown.

3: A two handed weapon. For people who want to hit hard. Not a choice I favour - but certainly viable.

4: Two hand weapons. To lock down two foes at once.

5: Sword and board. To be as tough and hard to hit as you can be.


I think hammers and axes would both be good for someone who needs to be tough.

Either work - honestly, whichever weapons you think will look best will probably be right for your character. It's entirely possible to not specialise in weapons and not miss out (because you've spent the feats in other places).

[Kurald Galain]

What is a seeker then?
A design flaw.


Let's say for the sake of discussion I decide to stick with the fighter. in that case what should I do to complement the Paladin and the rest of the party? The fighter has to actually hit enemies to mark them whereas I understand the Paladin can mark people anywhere?
No. The fighter marks enemies by attacking them (even if you miss) whereas the paladin marks enemies as a minor action. Remind the warlord that if he makes your fighter attack someone, that includes a free mark.

Generally speaking you'll want to coordinate with the paladin in particular, agreeing that he'll mark this guy while you'll mark that guy. Since almost all of your party members are melee, I would recommend using a reach weapon and carrying a bow as backup. Since it looks like you have a decent amount of damage in the party, if you find some good condition-inflicting powers, take them. For example, anything that immobilizes or dazes enemies.

[Tegu8788]

A Paladin has two ways to mark. One is a ranged power that is sustained by being next to or attacking the marked target that works on one enemy at a time. The other almost always lasts until the end of the next turn, and is easier for mass spreading, but is tired to specific powers and feats. A Paladin also doesn't need to use an action to punish a violater.

The Fighter marks anyone they attack, that ends at the end of the next turn, and they also have another feature that makes them very accurate with OAs that stop enemy from moving past them.

The two can work in concert well, depending on what style each plays that can both multimark or focus on a single target. They can trade back and forth as well, because new marks overrule old ones, and they both get to choose when to apply their mark.


A Seeker can provide control, but in a lot of cases they are not a true Controller. They provide soft control, which isn't as useful as hard control. They can still do their job, and I hear they work well in groups as a back up controller.

The reason I suggested the brawler fighter, is because they can grab an enemy with their powers, and basically keep them underfoot. The one I linked to was able to keep three monsters prone with no chance of escape simultaneously. Which made the party Slayer and Barbarian very happy, and I image you Monks will appreciate having easy to hit targets unable to fight back. Your Warlord will also allow you to make extra attacks, which means extra marking.

[Nightgaun7]

Ok, so - I'll start from the top with what I've got, and my thoughts if any, and you can critique each. I've decided that I do not need to be the toughest guy around - what I want to do is defend my allies and punish anyone who attacks them. Fatally.

My understanding is that monks are good at dealing with large numbers of enemies. I don't really know what a seeker does. But I figure that I should focus on fighting the big baddies in my off-Striker role. And the Paladin can mass-apply marks and punish people who violate them for free, so that will cut down on the hordes. I will take some stuff for clearing out multiple enemies, of course, but I primarily want to concentrate on going toe to toe with the big guys.

Race - Human. I've seen it said a few places that a third at-will isn't that great for a fighter, and I'm not 100% committed to this, but it seemed like a simple starting point for a 4E newbie
Other options: I could make a 4E version of a Mul fighter I had, or go for a Goliath or Half-Orc, both races I like.

Paragon Path - Sons of Mercy. I've always loved the mentality behind the faction, even if I have to file the serial numbers off. It's just fun to play. And the powers seem pretty sweet, too.

Theme - Guardian. Like the fluff, ability seems like a good one for dealing with all sorts of enemies with movement that would be hard to defend against.

Stats - Strength high, of course, but the rest of it is somewhat open to debate, since it depends on what weapon is used.

Fighter Weapon Talent - Helps with the hitting. Seems a bit lackluster though.

For my powers, we have:

At-Will 1 - Brash Strike
At-Will 2 - Cleave
At-Will 3 - Footwork Lure
Encounter 1 - Hack And Hew - A source of multi-target marking
Daily 1 - Villain's Menace - Hit one target hard
Utility 2 - Glowering Threat
Encounter 3 - Parry and Riposte
Daily 5 - Bedeviling Assault
Utility 6 - Don't quite know here. Knights Challenge, Kirre's Roar, or Ignore Weakness
Encounter 7 - Come and Get It
Daily 9 - Rain of Steel encourages weaker enemies to stay away, then punishes them for trying to get there
Utility 10 - Clearheaded make it hard to take me down without killing me

Note that 1) I have tried to pick powers that work without being to specific about a weapons and 2)I have not retrained anything - I haven't quite figured out how that works yet but I'll get around to it.

Feats: First of all, we get 1 free expertise feat and 1 free defense booster
Now, the 8 feats I was looking at so far...

1. Forceful Opportunist
2. Master at Arms
3. Pinning Challenge
4. Mobile Challenge
5. Reckless Attacker
6. Deadly Draw
7. Improved Defenses
8. ---

Again, not much focus on a particular weapon type.

Gear
Game I'm in has this as a houserule:
"PCs have a +1 innate enhancement bonus to all attack rolls, damage rolls, and defenses at level 5. This bonus increases by +1 every additional 5 levels thereafter. PCs further have bonus critical damage dice equal to +1d6 per enhancement bonus gained in this way. These bonuses overlap but do not stack with enhancement bonuses from magical gear."

Strikebacks
Lifeblood Armor - bit leery of the lower AC here
Feyslaughter Weapon - help patch up the Fighter weakness to teleports
Periapt of Cascading Health
Stone of Earth
Diamond Cincture
Salve of Power
Dice of Auspicious Fortune
Battle Standard of the Hungry Blade – was thinking this might be better for the Paladin to take?


In addition I have gold equal to the value of a level 10 item. Don't need to buy most mundane items.

[Dimers]

I'm the avenger in this group, and I'm an avenger|SWORDMAGE/monk. Assault swordmage, just to get extra attacks when someone violates my marks, which is to say, I act like a striker. I will not work well in a party with two non-Essentials defenders since I have to mark too, but only four characters from that original list will be included in the game, so I expect everything will mesh well enough. Nightgaun7, my job is to focus on one enemy at a time, cutting it to ribbons before moving on to the next. You can expect both listed strikers to be extraordinarily mobile.

InfernallyClay's druid also looks likely to make the cut, so we have a controller, and a fairly well-built one.

I'd agree that we need more control and lockdown, so polearm, flail and unarmed are the better weapon choices. I find unarmed and grabbing a little harder to understand -- partially because there's a difference between powers that grab and using the grab action. I prefer polearm for the flexibility of attacking without being adjacent. Speaking strictly about party synergy, inflicting conditions is more important than doing damage. Your weapon can be unimpressive and your powers can all be 1[W] if you keep the bad guys from being effective. You might decide you want a higher personal kill count than that, sure, but for the party I'd rather see control.

The human extra-at-will is definitely not as good at this level of play. You'll rarely make much use of at-wills unless you select lots of immediates for your class powers, and fighter doesn't have many immediates to choose from. (Plus you'll need to use immediates for whichever lockdown feature you choose.) Instead, once per combat after you've found out you rolled decently but not quite well enough, you can turn a miss into a hit. That's strong.

For stats, if you start with Wisdom 14, hitting paragon tier increases it to 15, which is enough to take Superior Will feat. That will help you with the nastier kinds of action denial, which means you can keep having fun and being effective.

[Kurald Galain]

Race - Human. I've seen it said a few places that a third at-will isn't that great for a fighter,
It isn't great for anyone above level two. However, humans may alternatively take the Heroic Effort power, which is very good.


Fighter Weapon Talent - [I]Helps with the hitting. Seems a bit lackluster though.
Boring but effective.

Now think for yourself: do you want to fight hordes, or do you want to fight the one biggest foe? Because that seriously affects your build and powerchoice. Also, pick a weapon that sounds cool and stick with it.

Some alternatives to consider: (2) Agile Recovery, because being prone sucks for a fighter; (3) Rain of Blows, or multiclass to ranger and grab Disruptive Strike; (10) Fighter's Grit.

[Yakk]

A fun fighter build, if not high charop, is a sword-and-board who concentrates on a mixture of shield-interrupts and multi-attacks.

Rapier, Large shield, Scale.

Come and Get it, Rain of Blows (the one that gives you 3 attacks if you have a spear or light blade? I think that is the name), and a shield-based immediate interrupt/reaction for attacking you (you'll usually have a good opportunity to use it at least once a fight: note that using it blocks your ability to apply your other mark punishment).

For feats, light blade expertise, surprising charge.

For fun, make yourself a pixie. Pick fey beast tamer theme, grab a displacer beast for your mount. Grab streak of light, and all of your charges have CA (+2 to hit, and with surprising charge and LBE +1+1d8 damage). Stay mounted on your medium displacer beast, and your slow speed (due to pixie slow speed plus heavy armor) is negated. Grab the feat that grants you cover when in the same square as an ally, and when mounted you have perma-cover (+2 to all defences, +1 from the displacer beast).

If human, adroit explorer lets you pick up a 2nd instance of come and get it or rain of blows, and if you have a martial PP you can use the martial reserve feat to swap your PP encounter attack power for a fighter encounter power (in effect). There are few things more gross than a fighter who sets up an auto-damage aura, charges, action point, come and get it, then repeats come and get it next round.

Grab the daily stance that deals [W] damage to all adjacent (which is gross with come and get it), and Villians Menance (for +4 damage on all attacks on the target, great for the setup to your 3 attack power) or that Dark Sun level 1 daily.

Having enough Wisdom to get Superior Will is important, because being dazed/stuned makes you nearly useless.

For items, Iron Armbands of Power are key (+2 damage on all attacks). Acrobats boots solve the prone problem without wasting a power slot.

Frost cheese is possible at level 11, 1 item+2 feats generating a pretty consistent +5 damage per hit.

Charge cheese is possible (badge of berzerker, horned helm, vanguard weapon, surprising charge, streak of light, rapier, 20 str means your charges deal an average of 25 damage per hit at +3 to hit at-will).

[Lord Haart]

What your party does need, though, is a controller.There are no necessary roles other than a leader, and that's only because without it the five-minute adventure day (which all DMs i've played with either enforce or have nothing against anyway) becomes a necessity. Suggesting a controller (where out of bunch, only the Druid is remotely melee, with some melee classes having some controlling elements) to a guy who wants to play a fighter just because this is the role uncovered by the party sounds a bit too far-fetched to me. Perhaps a controller will add a bit more to the party effectiveness than an extra defender will, but the difference is by no means vital. Especially with a monk and a seeker to take care of minion clean-up.


What is a seeker then?I've seen a seeker (using a lot of powers from that dragon article that brought it up a notch) in actual play (on early-mid Paragon, if relevant), and it had confirmed my expectations: despite the mislabel, it's a striker with a wonky extra damage mechanics and some random controller powers on his list (no more of them than a rogue or sorcerer gets). Where a rogue relies on combat advantage and warlock on his curse, seeker gets extra damage whenever monsters realise that everybody wins if they misbehave (well, it is possible to meet a DM whose monsters never misbehave, in which case congratulations, you're a controller all of a sudden). On paper, it seemed like it's a bit unreliable, but the seeker's player had no problems with triggering it.

[Nightgaun7]

How's this? I decided to focus on hammers to get some good dazing and stuff in, with a little bit of forced movement.


Brandis, level 11
Mul, Fighter (Weaponmaster), Son of Mercy
Fighter Option: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents Option: Battlerager Vigor
Born of Two Races Option: Dwarf
Chessenta (Chessenta Benefit)
Theme: Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 19, DEX 12, INT 9, WIS 15, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 14, DEX 11, INT 8, WIS 14, CHA 8


AC: 25 Fort: 24 Ref: 18 Will: 19
HP: 94 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +16, Intimidate +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +4, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +7, Heal +7, History +4, Insight +9, Nature +7, Perception +9, Religion +4, Stealth +6, Streetwise +6, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Guardian Attack: Guardian's Counter
Mul Racial Power: Incredible Toughness
Fighter Attack: Combat Challenge
Son of Mercy Feature: Lawbreaker's Doom
Fighter Attack 1: Brash Strike
Fighter Attack 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter Attack 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter Attack 1: Driving Attack
Fighter Utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter Attack 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter Attack 5: Bedeviling Assault
Fighter Utility 6: Ignore Weakness
Fighter Attack 7: Come and Get It
Fighter Attack 9: Bloodspike Sweep
Fighter Utility 10: Clearheaded
Son of Mercy Attack 11: Dispensed Justice

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Devoted Challenge
Level 4: Thunder Hammer
Level 6: Master at Arms
Level 8: Hammering Iron
Level 10: Mobile Challenge
Level 11: Bludgeon Expertise
Level 11: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Hammer Shock

ITEMS
Feyslaughter Mordenkrad +2 x1
Magnetic Drakescale Armor +2 x1
Strikebacks x1
Acrobat Boots
Badge of the Berserker +2
Distance Javelin +1
====== End ======

[Dimers]

I like it. Scary, smashy mordenkrad goodness.

Your stats are lower than they should be -- initial stats are 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 8 (so you can't have low Int and Cha both), and we have 24 point-buy for this game instead of 22.

[neonchameleon]

OK. Your basics are fine, your powers are good.

Thunder Hammer: do you have any powers that cause the enemy to become dazed, immobilised, slowed, or stunned? I don't think so?

Bludgeon Expertise and Master At Arms do not stack. Take just one (I recommend Bludgeon Expertise).

Hammering Iron and Mobile Challenge are probably both redundant - you already have Combat Superiority; people are already badly screwed if they try to walk out of combat with you.

Devoted Challenge I don't consider enough for a feat.

So what are you missing?

1: Improved Defences. You are going to take a pounding. +2 to fort, ref, and will for one feat is great value. (There's also the superior fort/ref/will combo if you have three feats).

2: Weapon Focus. It's dull, but does the job.

3: Resillience of Stone. This feat is an evil one - it lets you use your second wind as an interrupt (and trust me, you won't always be combat challenging) - one that gives you +2 to all defences for the rest of the round as well as spending a healing surge.

4: Multiclass feats. I don't care which ones, they are all good. A skill and a feat level benefit for one feat - and you only have three trained skills.

You're also missing Iron Armbands of Power for +2 to damage rolls - those things are more or less a de facto standard item.

[Yakk]

Here is a variant of your build:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Bob, level 11
Mul, Fighter, Son of Mercy
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Born of Two Races: Born of Two Races (Dwarf)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 17, Dex 15, Int 9, Wis 17, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 14, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 10.


AC: 28 Fort: 26 Reflex: 21 Will: 23
HP: 92 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 24

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +10, Endurance +18, Athletics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +8, History +4, Insight +10, Nature +8, Perception +10, Religion +4, Stealth +7, Streetwise +7, Thievery +7

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Spear Expertise
Level 4: Resilience of Stone
Level 6: Superior Will
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 10: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 11: Armor Specialization (Scale)

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter daily 1: Master's Edge
Fighter utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Dauntless Endurance
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Bedeviling Assault
Fighter utility 10: Battle Fury Stance

ITEMS
Gouge, Dwarven Wyvernscale Armor +3, Dynamic Gouge +3, Badge of the Berserker +1, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Belt of Vigor (heroic tier), Helm of Opportunity (heroic tier)
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

This build does really nasty damage, can do mass-tanking, or be a really cruel second tank in a boss fight (you can really screw with a solo by having one of your allies mark the boss, then punishing the boss *anyway* for ignoring you).

[Nightgaun7]

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Spear Expertise
Level 4: Resilience of Stone
Level 6: Superior Will
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 10: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 11: Armor Specialization (Scale)


I can have two more feats, since one of the offensive and one of the defensive ones can be moved to our bonus feats. Beyond that, I don't know. I tend to prefer active or effect-adding feats to passive ones, but then in 3.5 it's supposedly easier to hit things.



POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter daily 1: Master's Edge
Fighter utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Dauntless Endurance
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Bedeviling Assault
Fighter utility 10: Battle Fury Stance


Can you explain why you made the choices you did over the ones I did? Just trying to get a feel for things.

[Nightgaun7]

OK. Your basics are fine, your powers are good.

Thunder Hammer: do you have any powers that cause the enemy to become dazed, immobilised, slowed, or stunned? I don't think so?

Bludgeon Expertise and Master At Arms do not stack. Take just one (I recommend Bludgeon Expertise).

Hammering Iron and Mobile Challenge are probably both redundant - you already have Combat Superiority; people are already badly screwed if they try to walk out of combat with you.

Devoted Challenge I don't consider enough for a feat.

So what are you missing?

1: Improved Defences. You are going to take a pounding. +2 to fort, ref, and will for one feat is great value. (There's also the superior fort/ref/will combo if you have three feats).

2: Weapon Focus. It's dull, but does the job.

3: Resillience of Stone. This feat is an evil one - it lets you use your second wind as an interrupt (and trust me, you won't always be combat challenging) - one that gives you +2 to all defences for the rest of the round as well as spending a healing surge.

4: Multiclass feats. I don't care which ones, they are all good. A skill and a feat level benefit for one feat - and you only have three trained skills.

You're also missing Iron Armbands of Power for +2 to damage rolls - those things are more or less a de facto standard item.

Re: Thunder Hammer - Um...

Got rid of Master At Arms

I don't see why Hammering Iron and Mobile Challenge are redundant - One makes them move and one makes me move, no? My thinking was that I could push people away from my allies and then follow them.

For Devoted Challenge, dimers pointed out that I haven't actually invested all my stat points. Would it be worth it with a +3? It is to both attack and damage.

I have Improved Defenses as a bonus feat.

Similarly I don't get why Iron Armbands of Power or Weapon focus are so great, unless they add to each die rolled rather than to the attack as a whole?

Multiclass feats: Disciple of Divine Wrath and Bravo both look good. I'm reading the Fighter Handbook, and it says that the Cleric feat is awesome if you trade it for battle cleric's lore, but I'm not seeing why it's so hot for non-shield users.

[tcrudisi]

Similarly I don't get why Iron Armbands of Power or Weapon focus are so great, unless they add to each die rolled rather than to the attack as a whole?

Multiclass feats: Disciple of Divine Wrath and Bravo both look good. I'm reading the Fighter Handbook, and it says that the Cleric feat is awesome if you trade it for battle cleric's lore, but I'm not seeing why it's so hot for non-shield users.

Iron Armbands and Weapon Focus are nice because they up your damage. The more damage you do, the more likely the monster is going to stay on you rather than chasing after your striker allies. That +4 can really add up.

If your DM lets you take the Cleric MC and grab BCL instead of Healer's Lore, then it's a fantastic feat. It gives you a +2 shield bonus to AC even when you are wielding a two-handed weapon. You want to use a big weapon or two 1-h weapons? That's fine if you have that MC feat because you still get the shield bonus to AC! Note that it doesn't work for Reflexes if my memory serves me correctly.

[neonchameleon]

Re: Thunder Hammer - Um...

Got rid of Master At Arms

I don't see why Hammering Iron and Mobile Challenge are redundant - One makes them move and one makes me move, no? My thinking was that I could push people away from my allies and then follow them.

Both of them are situational - and don't actually work together. Hammering Iron is only on opportunity attacks, which most people try to avoid handing out. (Opportunity attacks are the penalty for doing something stupid in combat like running carelessly or trying to shoot a bow - and fighters are already vicious at them). Mobile challenge is only for Combat Challenge attacks - how often they are provoked depends on the DM.


I have Improved Defenses as a bonus feat.

Ah!


Similarly I don't get why Iron Armbands of Power or Weapon focus are so great, unless they add to each die rolled rather than to the attack as a whole?

Every little helps.

But actually I'm an idiot. You have Dwarven Weapon Training. Weapon Focus doesn't stack with that.


Multiclass feats: Disciple of Divine Wrath and Bravo both look good. I'm reading the Fighter Handbook, and it says that the Cleric feat is awesome if you trade it for battle cleric's lore, but I'm not seeing why it's so hot for non-shield users.

Battle Cleric's Lore: +2 Shield Bonus not +2 to your shield bonus. You get the bonus if you aren't carrying a shield.

[Yakk]

Originally Posted by Yakk
FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Spear Expertise
Level 4: Resilience of Stone
Level 6: Superior Will
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 10: Weapon Focus (Axe)
Level 11: Armor Specialization (Scale)
I can have two more feats, since one of the offensive and one of the defensive ones can be moved to our bonus feats. Beyond that, I don't know. I tend to prefer active or effect-adding feats to passive ones, but then in 3.5 it's supposedly easier to hit things.
You have powers for active feats.

Dead is the best status condition, and unless you can apply status conditions that amount to "might as well be dead", kill the thing.



Originally Posted by Yakk
POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter daily 1: Master's Edge
Fighter utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter encounter 3: Rain of Blows
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Dauntless Endurance
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Bedeviling Assault
Fighter utility 10: Battle Fury Stance
Can you explain why you made the choices you did over the ones I did? Just trying to get a feel for things.
You have more than one Tank in your group. Master's Edge lets you stack punishment on a single solo enemy -- they mark it, you Edge it, and everyone shifts 1 back away from it. It either stands there and does next to nothing, it attacks you (and the mark punishment kicks in), or it approaches the marker (and your edge punishment kicks in). It can also be used to double-lockdown a foe that is overly mobile for your marks.

Rain of Blows is one of the highest damage powers in the game, and can be used to multi-mark if that is required.

Rain of Steel is auto-damage every round against every adjacent foe. That adds up, especially because Come and Get it lets you suck every foe on half the battlefield into your Rain of Steel. And feats and effects that add to damage rolls (not hits: damage rolls) apply to Rain of Steel.

Battle Fury Stance lets you switch from being tanky to being extra brutally damaging. Once again, you have other tanks, so in some fights you'll just want to kill things dead.

Much of my power selection was about "extra attacks". Your baseline damage is 20 per hit, by adding more hits we can get your damage up to acceptable levels.

Rain of Blows is 45 damage, plus 3 times the static damage boosts you can pull off (Lawbreaker's Doom, for example). Come and Get it is 15 damage per foe you pull in, and auto-damage on adjacent foes.

Bedeveling Assault is more free off-turn attacks (each of which is potentially 20 damage).

Round 1: Battle Fury, move, attack (free lawbreaker's) big bad with Bedeveling Assault. Then Rain of Blows.

Your static damage boost is +7 (4 battle fury, 3 lawbreaker), so if everything hits you are dealing 101 damage that round.

An ally then overwrites your mark.

Now each round you get a second basic melee attack from Bedeveling assault. If you do nothing but basic melee/brash strike, your damage output is upwards of 50 per round if you hit.

But you also get to Dispense Justice once (another 35 damage) and Guardian's Counter (another 27 damage) as immediate actions.

So now you are doing 100/80/80 over the first 3 rounds. Level 11 solos have about 450 HP, and you are dealing more than half of that *yourself* over 3 rounds, all at the cost of 1 daily.

Note that a level 11 normal foe has about 110 HP: a lawbreaker battle fury rain of blows can take off more than half of the target's HP in a single round.

Now, suppose there are many small foes. Rain of Steel, position, Come and Get It will cut 1/4 the HP off of every foe you hit, clump them nicely, and lock them down with your fighter class features.

Rain of Blows may then out-right kill one of them, and Hack and Hew could bloody two of them.

Basically, apply multiple stacking damage bonuses to frequent attacks.

A feat that adds +3 to hit and +3 to damage on CS attacks is only useful if enemies regularly violate your mark, or need the extra incentive to not violate your mark. A way to determine how valuable it is is to estimate how often mark violation happens per encounter, and balance the damage done against a more generic feat or source of damage.

[Nightgaun7]

And what if I wanted to stick with my hammer? How much of that can still be used?

[Yakk]

I just noticed I wasted a feat (Weapon Focus (Axe) -- you already have Dwarven Weapon Training, which grants a feat bonus).

If you are going hammer, the power "Rain of Blows" is no longer among the strongest encounter attack powers in the game (it is reduced to 2 [W] attacks from 3 [W] attacks). This frees up some requirement for a high dex.

Hammer's secondary attribute is Con, which sucks because it boosts Fort (as does Str), so if you go Str/Con your defences end up weaker.

If you go all out Str/Con, you can pick up Hammer Rhythm (con damage from hammer attacks that miss), which is a rather solid feat (miss damage is almost as good as hit damage: so if you have 18 con, that is a 4 damage on every miss).

An option for extra feats includes Plate Armor proficiency (+1 AC) and Plate Armor Specialization (+1 AC): scale armor specialization grants +1 AC, the +1 speed it grants other races doesn't happen (because Dwarves don't lose the speed, they don't get it back...), hammer rhythm,

So here is a rework of my rework with a hammer, with a few fixes, and the two bonus feats accounted for:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Bob, level 11
Mul, Fighter, Son of Mercy
Fighter: Combat Superiority
Fighter Talents: Two-handed Weapon Talent
Born of Two Races: Born of Two Races (Dwarf)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 18, Dex 12, Int 9, Wis 18, Cha 11.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 15, Dex 11, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 10.


AC: 29 Fort: 26 Reflex: 20 Will: 24
HP: 93 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 23

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +10, Endurance +14, Athletics +13, Religion +9

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Arcana +4, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +9, History +4, Insight +11, Nature +9, Perception +11, Stealth +4, Streetwise +7, Thievery +4

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 4: Resilience of Stone
Level 6: Armor Proficiency: Plate
Level 8: Improved Defenses
Level 10: Quick Steps (retrained to Armor Specialization (Plate) at Level 11)
Feat User Choice: Superior Will
Feat User Choice: Bludgeon Expertise
Level 11: Hammer Rhythm

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Footwork Lure
Fighter at-will 1: Brash Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Hack and Hew
Fighter daily 1: Master's Edge
Fighter utility 2: Glowering Threat
Fighter encounter 3: Parry and Riposte
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Dauntless Endurance
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Bedeviling Assault
Fighter utility 10: Battle Fury Stance

ITEMS
Badge of the Berserker +1, Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier), Strikebacks (heroic tier), Acrobat Boots (heroic tier), Horned Helm (heroic tier), Potion of Healing (heroic tier) (3), Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier) (2), Defensive Mordenkrad +3, Summoned Gith Plate Armor +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

I also reworked items, and spent the change on expendables (healing potions if your leader goes down, and whetstones for +2 cold damage for an encounter, abusively good if anyone in your group does frostcheese).


The Defensive Hammer means your per-encounter interrupt second wind now adds a total of +5 to all defences, including against the triggering attack: that should be enough to negate the attack.

Summoned Armor lets you never be without your armor, unless you are knocked out/surprised, even when sleeping or in a diplomatic situation. Just spend the minor action, and poof, you are armored.

Horned Helm gives you +1d6 charge damage, which is always fun.

Avenger Multiclass gives you double-rolls when attacking a target for 2 rounds, so long as you only have that one target adjacent to you. It is a pretty strong minor action damage output boost when you cannot manage to have foes swarming around you. Technically it lasts 2 rounds, but the power also says it refreshes if the target drops: so if your group defeats the target in those two rounds, by RAW you get the oath back.

Parry and Riposte is an off-turn attack that can be either used when tanking a single marked foe who missed you, or when you have nobody marked and an ally is tanking a foe who missed them.

Note that I oversubscribed to immediate actions (reactions and interrupts), because they are strong. But this means you'll be short them many turns -- try to use one of your immediate actions each round, and try to mark foes who go right after you in initiative order (if they don't trigger your mark, your immediate action can now be used on whomever you want whenever you want).

Glowering Threat should again be used when you *do not* have most foes marked. Force foes to violate your allies marks, or violate your glowering threat.

[Nightgaun7]

I notice you haven't included mobile challenge or forceful opportunist. Why is that? They seem to be pretty widely used.

[Yakk]

I notice you haven't included mobile challenge or forceful opportunist. Why is that? They seem to be pretty widely used.
First, as a general rule, the best status condition is dead.

Second, your OAs already halt movement. You could easily be beside a half-dozen foes: pushing a foe on an OA would mean you aren't next to the other enemies!

If we use the "weapon focus" standard of a feat (ie, I will use +2 damage per hit per feat as my "par" feat -- feats are better, or worse, than this standard), your attacks mostly deal about 20 damage. Each feat that is as good as "weapon focus" or better would up your damage by ~10%. (+1 accuracy, +2 damage, about +3 miss damage, +8 damage once per fight -- all would up your damage output by 10%).

Now, it isn't all about damage. For example, I burned 2 feats on increased AC. Going from level+16 to level+18 AC reduces incoming damage a whole lot: about half of attacks target AC, and even level opponents have a level+5 attack roll vs AC. So they would go from hitting on a 11+ to hitting on a 13+, dropping their damage output on you by 20%. These also help make the battle fury stance (-2 AC for +4 damage per hit) a touch less suicidal: when battle fury is up, you are at melee-level AC, instead of at artillery-level AC).

Improved Defences grants +2 to Fort and Reflex and Will (~1/6 of attacks each) and superior will is +1 additional to will (1/6 of attacks) and massively reduces the degree to which the worst conditions (stun, daze and dominate) shut you down. Expensive, but you have to spend it. +2 to defences for half of attacks is going to drop incoming damage by 10%, and dropping incoming damage and conditions by 10% is worth about as much as boosting outgoing damage by 10%. Superior Will is harder to measure, but a dazed or stunned or dominated fighter is a useless defender.

Expertise feat is above par (+2 to hit) and free.

Hammer Rhythm is above par (4 damage per miss is worth about 3 damage per hit).

Resilience of Stone, with your defensive weapon, gives you a healing surge and a +5 bonus against an attack per encounter (lasts until EOnT too). Extremely solid: it probably makes an attack miss, and turns you into a serious tank for a round, and reduces the load on your leader. Use this after a Come and Get It if they try to dogpile you (yes, this means they can safely shift away and charge your allies at -2 to hit, but they could do that anyhow with only 1 of them getting hit).

DoDW can easily boost your damage output by 50% for 2 rounds, and more if you manage to drop the target. As many fights will be over in ~4 rounds, this is also above par.

DWT is +2 damage, and a superior weapon training (another +1.5 damage per [W]). Obviously above the par.

With every feat at least as good as a +10% boost to your damage output, why would adding a push or a shift on an opponent you have already shut down by hitting with an OA be worth it? If the foe triggers your OA (let alone get hit), you are already well ahead: it means that the foe has been catch-22ed into ignoring you, and granting you a bonus attack at +5 to hit (!) (+4 wis, +1 from gloves), and if it hits their action (moving away from you) gets wasted.

The DM may become so afraid of your OAs quite quickly that monsters will simply refuse to trigger them. Which means your feats that give you repositioning get wasted. And even if the DM does, when the monster triggers the OA, they are already pretty screwed: optimize for situation when the monster is less screwed, not for situations where the monster elects to be more screwed, unless you can force the monster to making the choice that will screw them.

As an example, there are builds that make attacking the defender pretty suicidal (with massive riposte type damage and effects, sometimes even negating the attack with an interrupt): when you have that level of punishment for attacking the tank, only then you start laying on ridiculous punishment for daring to ignore the tank.

Increasing the ignore the tank punishment when you lack that massive attack the tank punishment is pointless.

Hence the build: it is built around dealing striker-level damage while being defender-level durable, with the ability to do some serious catch-22 double-teaming with another defender (or defender hybrid) and/or mass tanking and blending.

[Nightgaun7]

Thanks for typing all that up, it was very helpful in figuring out how I'm supposed to be operating.

[Ridai]

I guess my suggestion of "pick what sounds fun, this ain't a race" didn't do much. It's not like I'll use killer DM tactics. :smallconfused:

[obryn]

I guess my suggestion of "pick what sounds fun, this ain't a race" didn't do much. It's not like I'll use killer DM tactics. :smallconfused:
Don't stress it too much. Nobody's giving him DM-angering advice like making a Dragonborn Rebreather or anything. Or that wacky bard/battlemind/fighter hybrid. :smallsmile:

-O

[Nightgaun7]

I guess my suggestion of "pick what sounds fun, this ain't a race" didn't do much. It's not like I'll use killer DM tactics. :smallconfused:

Well if it's any consolation to you I didn't take anything here and copy-paste it onto my sheet. It's more of an amalgam of all the advice - especially as various people pointed out things I picked that sounded fun were not working, like Bludgeon Expertise and Master At Arms, or that I had no powers that worked with one of the hammer feats I picked.

And it was very helpful in seeing what a fighter should be doing with his time in combat, for a 3.5 player. The difference is actually quite large, since tanking is an actual thing.

[obryn]

And it was very helpful in seeing what a fighter should be doing with his time in combat, for a 3.5 player. The difference is actually quite large, since tanking is an actual thing.
Yup.

And I have to say, if you're diving into paragon-tier 4e feet-first, it's best to do it right. To have a character who's capable and shows the system off well. Defenders are a new core concept of 4e, and a good defender can be fun.

If you go into 4e expecting the Fighter to be Mr. Damage Guy, you'll end up disappointed. By making the best Defender you can, you're seeing what the system has to offer.

-O

[Nightgaun7]

Yup.

And I have to say, if you're diving into paragon-tier 4e feet-first, it's best to do it right. To have a character who's capable and shows the system off well. Defenders are a new core concept of 4e, and a good defender can be fun.

If you go into 4e expecting the Fighter to be Mr. Damage Guy, you'll end up disappointed. By making the best Defender you can, you're seeing what the system has to offer.

-O

This isn't my very first 4E experience, but defenders are probably one of the biggest changes from 3.5, and one of the ones I am most interested in, so I was pretty much working along the lines of what you said.

[neonchameleon]

First, as a general rule, the best status condition is dead.

Just picking up on a few points on what's generally excellent advice:


Improved Defences grants +2 to Fort and Reflex and Will (~1/6 of attacks each) and superior will is +1 additional to will (1/6 of attacks) and massively reduces the degree to which the worst conditions (stun, daze and dominate) shut you down. Expensive, but you have to spend it. +2 to defences for half of attacks is going to drop incoming damage by 10%, and dropping incoming damage and conditions by 10% is worth about as much as boosting outgoing damage by 10%. Superior Will is harder to measure, but a dazed or stunned or dominated fighter is a useless defender.

If going for both Improved Defences and Superior Will, I'd do my best to make room for a third feat so you could get Superior Fortitude in there (and Superior Reflexes or at least Improved Reflexes, Superior being the weakest of the three). I'd probably drop plate to scale armour for this - resist 6 ongoing is going to save a lot of hit points and you're dropping one point of AC for +1 fort, +1 ref, and resist 6 ongoing. Of course then you don't qualify for Armour Specialisation (Scale)...


Hammer Rhythm is above par (4 damage per miss is worth about 3 damage per hit).

Huh? You don't miss 3/4 of the time?


With every feat at least as good as a +10% boost to your damage output, why would adding a push or a shift on an opponent you have already shut down by hitting with an OA be worth it?
...
The DM may become so afraid of your OAs quite quickly that monsters will simply refuse to trigger them. Which means your feats that give you repositioning get wasted. And even if the DM does, when the monster triggers the OA, they are already pretty screwed:

This.

[Dimers]

Huh? You don't miss 3/4 of the time?

Maths --

If X is your chance to hit and 1-X is your chance to miss, then the approximate truth of Yakk's statement can be calculated in this way:

4 damage * (1-X) = 3 damage * X

4-4X = 3X

4 = 7X

X = four sevenths, or about 57% chance to hit.

So if a character has a 57% chance to hit and a 43% chance to miss, a feat that grants 4 damage on a miss is as valuable for dealing damage as a feat that grants +3 damage on a hit.

EDIT: Though I personally prefer to put all my eggs in one basket, getting excellent results on a hit and diddleysquat on a miss. A strategy of missing doesn't excite me. *shrug*

[Yakk]

I guess my suggestion of "pick what sounds fun, this ain't a race" didn't do much. It's not like I'll use killer DM tactics. :smallconfused:
Honestly, you are playing paragon tier 4e.

4e has a problem where if players do not work at a bit of optimization, fights bog down. "randomly selected" powers and feats result in characters whose damage-as-a-fraction-of-enemy-HP per turn collapsing to boring levels.

"Pick what sounds fun" can ends up modeling randomly selected feats rather often when you are diving feet-first into picking 7 feats, 8 powers, and a paragon path on top of character creation. 4e was designed so that you have a modest amount of choices each level -- when you pour 11 levels worth of such choices at a relatively new player, their choices are going to be relatively "random".

Heck, someone's first 4e character is going to be full of relatively random choices: that is one of the reasons why 4e has retraining, where you can replace a feat or power with another when you level up. The inexperienced choices get replaced with choices that reflect problems your character has.

Going all-out charop is not a great idea (as your space of choice collapses into a few points), but modest amounts makes the game flow much quicker.

---

I was saying that miss damage is at least 3/4 as good as hit damage for a few reasons. First, reliable damage rocks, and miss makes your damage output more reliable (except on minions). Second, you don't need to miss 75% of your hits for miss damage to be 3/4 as good as hit damage on your damage per round: you only need to miss 3 hits in 7.

There is a downside, in that a few points of miss damage can be annoying for the DM to track.

---

Resist ongoing damage is quite often utterly useless. There are few critters that deal ongoing damage, and ongoing damage (with few exceptions) isn't the thing that makes you die: ongoing damage is predictable and regular, and what kills you tends to be unexpected damage spikes. If it also worked on damage from Auras, then I'd be tempted. As it stands, superior fortitude is worth barely more than the +1 fort.

So for the cost of 1 feats, you get +1 fort +1 reflex and a trivial benefit. You swap this for +1 AC. My rule of thumb is that +1 AC is worth +1 fort, reflex and will, especially on a melee defender. (More than half of attacks are on AC, especially on a melee defender, but non-AC attacks often have more annoying status riders).

Really, for a fighter, I'd be looking for more ways to burn single feats for +1 AC, not less.

---

As an aside, Battle Fury Stance is dropped when you use your second wind as an interrupt. That also grants +5 to all defences in the build I sketched, and it removes the -2 penalty to AC that Battle Fury Stance applies.

You could save Battle Fury for the cheanup, or you could kick it off early and wait until you have taken a healing surge worth of damage and are hit again.

[Kurald Galain]

4e has a problem where if players do not work at a bit of optimization, fights bog down. "randomly selected" powers and feats result in characters whose damage-as-a-fraction-of-enemy-HP per turn collapsing to boring levels.

"Pick what sounds fun" can ends up modeling randomly selected feats rather often when you are diving feet-first into picking 7 feats, 8 powers, and a paragon path on top of character creation. 4e was designed so that you have a modest amount of choices each level -- when you pour 11 levels worth of such choices at a relatively new player, their choices are going to be relatively "random".

Yes. At paragon tier, the difference between a well-made character and a not-so-well-made character will be obviously visible (and note that "well-made" does not mean "charop level", but it does include avoiding certain classes or subclasses).
If the entire party is not-well-made, they will have trouble dealing with regular challenges and/or make combat last uncomfortably long. If some characters are well-made and others are not, then there will be markedly clear difference between their level of effectiveness, especially between characters that share a role.
And that's probably not what you want from the campaign. There is a reason why most* campaigns stay in heroic, after all (*according to WOTC's research).

[Yakk]

Kurald, I'm not aware of a class that cannot be optimized to "2 round striker" level using CharOp: and usually you can do better if you don't force a shaman, say, into being a striker, and instead focus on being a leader.

I mean, you can make wizards into decent damage output charge cheesers.

The "weaker" classes/subclasses often need more charop to reach a certain level of competence, and sometimes that charop really warps or restricts the character concept.

In short, if nobody in your party has insane levels of charop, with sufficient charop even really "weak" classes/builds can be brought up to "par".

The problem is that the more "weak" choices you make, the more restricted your remaining choices become in order to contribute at a rate sufficiently good that you won't have glacially slow combats at paragon level and above.

I can describe the design problem if you care: the contribution to character power from the "obvious" sources drops in importance as the game progresses. 4e designers built the game conservatively, let players find things that where too-strong, cut down the tallest trees, then went with it.

The result is that a "baseline" power is "too weak", and the same with a baseline paragon path and feat, in order to defeat monsters fast enough that the fight isn't boring. The tallest trees are still "too strong": the game is now calibrated not for a random power or other pick, but for above average picks.

The most unexpected fact is that passive bonuses from feats end up making up an increasing portion of your character's power. At level 1, a high "pure damage" encounter power is +1[W] above baseline, maybe +2[W] with a drawback -- that's +5-8 or 9-16 with a drawback average damage.

Monsters at this level have ~32 HP, so we are talking 1/4 to 1/2 of their life.

By level 30, the high-single-hit power deals ... +2[W] above an at-will (4[W]), or 3[W] with a drawback! That's 9-16 damage or 14-24 with a drawback. Monsters have 264 HP, so if all 3 of your powers are "hard hitters" like that, they together contribute 1/5-1/4 of the monster's HP.

Meanwhile, each feat scales in power, and the number of feats scale. At level 1, you had 1 feat that boosted your damage output by 10% or so, or another benefit that is as good. At level 30, you have 18 feats, [b]each of which can boost your damage output by 10%[b] or so from the featless state. (well, not quite 10% maybe -- but they sure boost it more than 0.5% each).

The result is that "hard hitting" feats become increasingly poor. As much of the feat damage bonuses apply to each attack, getting more attacks becomes increasingly strong: the powers become little but ways to deliver your feat static bonuses more efficiently.

[Kurald Galain]

Kurald, I'm not aware of a class that cannot be optimized to "2 round striker" level using CharOp: and usually you can do better if you don't force a shaman, say, into being a striker, and instead focus on being a leader.
Well, that's the thing. If you won't or can't use charop-level tricks, then there are certain classes you should avoid because they won't work without them at paragon tier. If you can and do use those tricks, then you should still avoid those classes because you'd have realizd that other classes are simply much better.



In short, if nobody in your party has insane levels of charop, with sufficient charop even really "weak" classes/builds can be brought up to "par".
No. If nobody has insane levels of charop except the weak classes, then the weak classes are up to par. That doesn't help anyone.

[Yakk]

Well, that's the thing. If you won't or can't use charop-level tricks, then there are certain classes you should avoid because they won't work without them at paragon tier. If you can and do use those tricks, then you should still avoid those classes because you'd have realizd that other classes are simply much better.
You are presuming your goal is to create the "most powerful character".

If your goal is to create a playable character, using charop techniques in moderation to reach an appropriate level of power solves the problem of "some classes suck out of the box".

No. If nobody has insane levels of charop except the weak classes, then the weak classes are up to par. That doesn't help anyone.
How not?

Over charop of high end classes breaks 4e. It becomes rocket tag: any foe capable of challenging you breaks the math. The DM basically has to houserule monsters to the nth degree to deal with your party.

Under charop of low end classes breaks 4e. You get abysmally slow combats with default difficulties that do not deal enough damage to threaten your party: the "grind" combat problem that gets worse as you gain levels with low charop. The DM is forced to homebrew modify monsters (upping damage, lowering toughness) to make the game flow reasonable.

These are just two ends of the same problem.

Modest to low charop of high end classes, and high charop of low end classes, leaves 4e gameplay functional. And still lets you play a shaman.

Plus, it is more challenging to charop a shaman to playability than it is to charop a cleric. :)

[Dimers]

Honestly, you are playing paragon tier 4e. 4e has a problem where if players do not work at a bit of optimization, fights bog down. "randomly selected" powers and feats result in characters whose damage-as-a-fraction-of-enemy-HP per turn collapsing to boring levels.

We're playing paragon-tier 4e with a DM who has already explicitly said he's going to adjust fight difficulty to the party's optimization level. I don't imagine the fights will bog down if we're fighting creatures of level-minus-three, no matter how unoptimized our choices. And since the DM has also said that XP doesn't exist for this campaign and we'll be leveling up at a quick pace that suits the story, it won't hurt our progression to only be fighting level-minus-three enemies.

You didn't know those things, so you represented the general case, while the specifics here mean that Nightgaun7 could indeed have selected whatever sounded spiffy without suffering for it. Of course, he also won't suffer for having heard the optimization and efficiency advice, and YAY for learning in general.

From my perspective (I enjoy moderate optimization but also frequently take feats/items/etc that sound fun or in-character), I see this as an "everyone is right" situation.

[Yakk]

Sadly, level-minus-three isn't good enough modification by paragon. Monster level doesn't change monster HP significantly at level 11 (level 11 monster has ~112 HP, level 8 monster has ~88 HP, lower level monster has 22% less HP), and as you gain levels it gets worse.

Lower level monsters just cannot hit, and are auto-hit by players. Their threat to players goes down faster than their ability to soak damage goes down.

You can drop the number of foes instead of using lower level encounters, but that also ends up dropping monster damage output below what the leader can casually heal even if the monsters focus fire. Again, monster threat drops faster than monster toughness.

To handle a party with sub-par damage and to have exciting combats where the players feel like the monsters are a threat, and the combats are short enough that they don't drag on, you would need to modify monsters in ways outside of the 4e monster math system.

There are many DMs who do exactly that. You can double monster damage output, or halve monster HP, and you can handle parties with sub-par damage output far easier. It seems strange to double monster damage output in response to sub-optimal players: but the flip side of doubling monster damage output is you can use far fewer monsters and still generate a feeling of *threat* when they attack you. But because they have less HP than a similar supply of standard monsters with the same damage output would have, they go down faster than the standard monsters do, preventing drag-on combat length issues.

Amusingly, the same response can work with over-optimized players. If you have an over-optimized tank, healer and strikers, doubling monster damage output and using level+4 full monster budget can keep the threat intact and keep fight length short. Here, the problem becomes that many ways of boosting damage per round actually drop damage per second, so round-count can be low while time it takes to do a combat can remain high.

In short, the DM has to do more work to make things work smoothly if the players don't "keep up with par".

What is this par I speak of?

Well, monster HP at level X is roughly (X+3)*8. Brutes have more, Artillery and Lurkers less, Elites have double, Soloes have x4 -- but that number is a typical monster's HP.

Combat length in rounds is determined by how much damage your party puts out. If each player deals an average of 1/4th of an even-level monster's HP (after accounting for misses), combat lasts ~4 rounds. If they deal 1/8th of an even-level monster's HP, combat lasts ~8 rounds. If they deal 1/2 of an even-level monster's HP

8 round combats are long slogs, with your encounter powers long gone, and relying on at-will after at-will after at-will.

4-5 round combats are close to the sweet spot. You can typically use an encounter attack power every round, or save one of them for a strange situation. If you have dailies, you can burn one of those as well.

If combat falls down to 2-3 rounds, things are probably a bit too quick.

We can measure player damage in normalized damage per round -- divide their damage per round against an AC 14+level non-AC 12+level opponent by (level+3). A 1 is "does not contribute much to killing monsters", a 2 is "baseline striker, or good damage non-striker", 3 is "good damage striker", 4 is "optimized striker", and anything over 4 is a sign of over-optimization.

If the party is full of 1s, it means 8 round combats.
2s, 4 round combats
4s, 2 round combats
8s, 1 round combats

8 is about where high-end charop builds put a character, and that is the range where historically WotC tended to errata the rules to remove the option.

1 (and sometimes lower) is where characters who are not strikers and who do almost no damage optimization end up.

The sweet spot, in my opinion, is as low as 1-2 for heavy support characters (healers, controllers), 2-3 for contributors to doing damage, and 3-4 for strikers, with daily burst damage (or single-round encounter burst damage) that can up to double those numbers.

If players aren't in those ranges, I would advise the DM to scale monster HP and/or monster damage to "fake" the players being in those ranges.

I'd also advise looking over the characters, doing back-of-napkin DPR calculations (assume 4 round combats), and seeing if the parties optimization level is all over the map. Bad things happen if one striker is a 1.5 damage striker, and another is a 4.5 damage striker.

Do the same check for defences -- AC for non-melee can be as low as 12+level, melee should be 15+level, and defender 18-20+level AC.

Average NAD should be over 10+level ideally, unless the character is supposed to be easy to drop.

Basically, 4e's "easy" balance works best in Heroic, and by Paragon it starts breaking down... Fixing it isn't exactly hard, but it isn't exactly trivial. Differential power gradients between characters can be a problem, as can combat being a slog or rocket tag depending on optimization level.