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Arcanist

2013-08-15, 04:25 AM

To summarize a long winded series of complaints, Zombies in 3.5 are made of suck, failure and negative energy. This has always bothered me because I actually enjoy using the Undead and what more is Undead is more Iconic than the Zombie... Besides the Vampire. However, I don't really care for the Skeleton template because the Skeleton is expected to instantly be rendered Mindless since it lacks a brain (along with all flesh) all together. So here is my reinterpretation of how the Zombie template should have been.

Zombie

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs51/f/2009/313/c/f/Zombie_apocalypse_by_korintic.jpg
Image by korintic (http://korintic.deviantart.com/)

I write this as an apology to those who are affected by my mistakes. I hope that you can find it in your hearts to forgive me, though I will understand if you can’t.

My wife was terminally ill and, a few month ago, she died. I was very sad at the loss as she was a marvelous, caring woman. She was kind, and everyone that met her said their lives were better for it. I couldn’t bear the pain though, so I did something terrible.

I will not tell you how I did it or how I learned to, for enough damage has been done, but I found a way to … bring her back. To raise her from the dead. I could no longer bear to be alone, and I made a terrible mistake in my loneliness.

When I finished the ritual, nothing happened. Not at first, anyway. I was about to re-bury her when I first started to hear breathing. With an understandable measure of joy, I realized that the sound was emanating from her mouth. I had done it. At the time I could not fully understand what ‘it’ was, but, in my blissful ignorance, I carried her home.

She was not the same. She was no longer caring, but a primal, instinctive beast. She howled and screamed, snarled at me whenever I passed. I was worried, not for my own sake but for hers. She could escape. She could go out and do something to get hurt.
-What is Dead (http://www.creepypasta.com/what-is-dead/), by Braden Powell

Creating a Zombie

"Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any living corporeal creature that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Size and Type
The creature’s type changes to Undead (Augmented Base creature). When the Zombie template is first applied to a creature it continues to use it's base statistics. If the Zombie is Mindless or becomes Mindless, you must recalculate base attack bonus, saves and skill points. Size is unchanged.

Hit Dice
Increase all current and future Hit Dice to d12s. When the Zombie loses its intelligence score, drop all Hit Dice from class levels and double the number of remaining Hit Dice to a minimum of 2HD.

Speed
Upon becoming Mindless, if the base creature could fly it's maneuverability drops down to clumsy.

Attacks
A Zombie retains all the natural weapons, manufactured weapon attacks, and weapon proficiencies of the base creature. A zombie also gains a Bite attack.

Bite
{table=head]Zombie Size|Bite Damage
Fine|1
Diminutive|1d2
Tiny|1d3
Small|1d4
Medium|1d6
Large|1d8
Huge|2d6
Gargantuan|2d8
Colossal|4d6[/table]

Special Attacks
A Zombie retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + ½ Zombie’s HD + Zombie’s Cha modifier unless noted otherwise. When the Zombie loses its intelligence score, it loses all Special attacks not provided by the Zombie template and that of the creatures race.

Zombie Powder (Ex or Su): Depending on the method for the Zombies creation effects which type this ability is. If the Zombie is created through the use of Magic or from another Zombie with this ability, it is Supernatural otherwise it is Extraordinary. When the Zombie successfully damages a target with its Bite attack it can infect the victim with the same source of Negative Energy that it holds and slowly turns the creature into a Zombie as well. The creature must make a fortitude save or become infected with Zombie Powder (see below). The DC for this is 10 + ½ Zombie’s HD + Zombie’s Cha modifier.

Special Qualities
A Zombie retains the Special Qualities of the base creature and gains those described below, however once it loses its Intelligence, it loses any special qualities not provided by the Zombie template and its race.

Damage Reduction (Ex): A Zombie has damage reduction 5/-.

Decomposing (Ex): The Zombie's body is slowly decomposing and over time it will just be a walking creature of instinct and violence. Every day after the Death of the creature, it's body loses one point of intelligence permanently and this continues even into Undeath until the Zombie's Intelligence is reduced to 0. When the Zombie's intelligence is reduced to 0 by this ability it is treated as not having an Intelligence score, it's Wisdom score gets reset to 10 and it becomes Mindless. After 1 month per HD of the Zombie, it gains the Skeleton template.

Irresistible Craving: The Zombie is a creature of primal instinct and destruction and what can be more primal than the need to eat? Although the Zombie does not necessarily NEED to eat due to their dead metabolism, it functions as a sort of comfort. The Zombie must consume at least 1 pound of flesh from a sentient creature (2 pounds from non-sentient creatures) each day or take 1d6 Wisdom damage (Will 25 to resist). When it feeds, it regains all damage that was lost due to this ability.

As its wisdom drops, it becomes more willing to attempt plans that it would not consider were it more sane, as it knows that feeding will calm down the desire. Should it reach zero wisdom, it's psyche is consumed by the hunger, and it attempts to feed in any way it possibly can (even to the point of attacking party members and/or innocents, whichever is closer).

Abilities
Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +2, Dex -2. As an undead creature, a Zombie has no Constitution score.

Skills: As base creature. No skills if/when Mindless.

Feats: As base creature. Replaced with Toughness if/when Mindless.

Environment: Any, same as base creature.

Organization: Any.

Challenge Rating: As base creature +2

Treasure: As base creature.

Alignment
Same as base creature. When Intelligence is lost, Neutral Evil.

Advancement
As base creature. By Hit dice if/when Mindless.

Level Adjustment: +0. After Intelligence is lost: —

Poisons and Disease
{table=head]Name|Type|Initial Damage|Secondary Damage|Price
Zombie Powder|Injury or Ingested DC 11*|Fatigue & Zombie Fever|None|50gp*[/table]*Assumes cultivation from a 2 HD zombie. For every additional 2 HD of the source zombie, add 1 to Save DC and 50gp to price

Zombie Powder: Consisting of nothing more than ground up zombie, zombie powder is typically employed by necromancers looking to separate themselves from a botched conquest attempt. A very subtle poison that deals a very destructive effect upon it's victims: Kills them. But it does not stop there. It reanimates them as... An abomination.

Zombie Fever
Typically transmitted via bite, Zombie Fever slowly kills off the flesh of the victim, turning them into a zombie.
Incubation Period: N/A
Save: DC 15 Fortitude
Ability Damage: 1 Con drain
Special: Any creature who dies while infected with Zombie Fever raises as a zombie 1d6 minutes after death.

Tell me how you feel about this template.

Phippster

2013-08-15, 04:48 AM

Fako

2013-08-15, 05:15 AM

The first obvious thing here is that you state it can apply to any other creature besides undead, which would be better worded by listing specific creature types, even though you mention skeletal systems. Does that mean a Bone Golem* could be made undead, even though it's a construct? It is, after all, made of bones. If beings such as angels or demons have intertwined bodies and souls, can they be made into zombies? They do have skeletons, after all. Can I make a zombie ooze? Can you even tell that zombie ooze is a zombie? Does it smell like old jelly?

A better way would be to specify exactly what creature types can be made into a zombie (such as stating that only humanoids, animals, magical beasts, and aberrations can be made into zombies, which is I think the restriction you were trying to make) than to state only that it needs to be corporeal and have a skeletal system. The skeletal system even seems iffy to me, but I guess if they turn into skeletons later then it makes sense.

I agree that a distinction needs to be made on the types that can be affected. While I don't remember a bone golem, you could technically zombify a flesh golem, which is rather... odd.

And if you're trying to make zombies suck less, why make it so they have less actions than they do now? The single action thing makes sense from a fluff perspective, but if you're trying to make them seem intimidating, the inability to chase after me and attack after I just stabbed one in the neck certainly doesn't instill terror in me. I think you've got a good idea here, but some of these things are really hindering your idea of "less sucky zombies".

The Single Actions only is actually already part of the default 3.5e zombie template. Check the special qualities in the srd, found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm).

------------------------------------
And now, personal separate opinions:

It almost feels like you have two templates here: One for an intelligent zombie, and one for a mindless zombie. Any particular reason you opted to have the intelligence slowly drain away from the victim?

Second, your Zombie Dust should be classed as a Disease instead of a Poison. Poison does secondary damage one time, then is rendered inert (DMG p. 296). However, Diseases don't have initial damage, so what you might want to do would be to pair the two: Have a poison (Zombie Dust) that has the disease as a rider effect. Like so: {table=head]Name|Type|Initial Damage|Secondary Damage|Price
Zombie Powder|Injury or Ingested DC 11*|Fatigue & Zombie Fever|None|50gp*[/table]*Assumes cultivation from a 2 HD zombie. For every additional 2 HD of the source zombie, add 1 to Save DC and 50gp to price

Consisting of nothing more than ground up zombie, zombie powder is typically employed by necromancers looking to separate themselves from a botched conquest attempt.

Zombie Fever
Typically transmitted via bite, Zombie Fever slowly kills off the flesh of the victim, turning them into a zombie.
Incubation Period: N/A
Save: DC 15 Fortitude
Ability Damage: 1 Con drain
Special: Any creature who dies while infected with Zombie Fever raises as a zombie 1d6 minutes after death.

NOTE: I'm guessing that the price per HD for infection was an attempt to prevent tougher zombies from being created by cheap poison, but it causes issues (as Phippster noted). Since tougher creatures are assumed to have better Fort saves, having a cost based on DC is a simpler metric, and your Zombie already has a bite attack that we can use to figure out the DC of the poison (which is noted below the poison itself). I also removed the secondary damage of the poison, instead shunting it onto the disease itself (with no incubation period, the creature will need to save instantly to avoid the initial 1 Con drain. If you want a delay, changing the incubation period would add one in.

And finally, the fact that single-actions only now applies to a Dex 8 or lower zombie seems a bit out of place. Normally, higher stats are rewarded with templates, instead of lower ones being punished, as this can throw off your challenge rating adjustments. I'd personally drop the thing, due to how laughably bad it is. (I personally used the Speedy variant from Libris Mortis at all times, to prevent my party from kiting the blasted things.)

EDIT: Pulling again from Libris Mortis (pages 9 and 10), Your "Diet Dependent" quality more closely reflects what the book considers an Inescapable Craving. I'd honestly suggest changing it to those rules, as it doesn't make sense that a Zombie becomes less able to bite things as it desires flesh more heavily. Here's how the book handles it (shortened, of course):A sentient undead with an Inescapable Craving must feed every day, or suffer 1d6 Wisdom damage (Will 25 to resist). When it feeds, it regains all damage that was lost due to this ability.

As its wisdom drops, it becomes more willing to attempt plans that it would not consider were it more sane, as it knows that feeding will calm down the desire. Should it reach zero wisdom, it's psyche is consumed by the hunger, and it attempts to feed in any way it possibly can (even to the point of attacking party members and/or innocents, whichever is closer).

Iceforge

2013-08-15, 05:31 AM

The Zombie Powder poison should be changed to a disease with an incubation period of 1 day. Poisons in DnD only work the initial and the secondary damage, while the diseases repeat until cured, which seems to be what you are trying to archive by the description below the poison, assuming that you intend that people die and become zombies once their CON reaches 0 (you never actually state that)

Unless you make changes, as suggested by others, to the DEX 8 and lower = partial actions only, then change the CR description to reflect that:

Challenge Ration: As Base Creature +1 (Dex 8 and lower), +2 (Dex 9 and higher)

Arcanist

2013-08-15, 05:54 AM

Phippster

The first obvious thing here is that you state it can apply to any other creature besides undead, which would be better worded by listing specific creature types, even though you mention skeletal systems. Does that mean a Bone Golem could be made undead, even though it's a construct? It is, after all, made of bones. If beings such as angels or demons have intertwined bodies and souls, can be made into zombies? Can I make a zombie ooze? Can you even tell zombie ooze is a zombie?

Only the Dragonbone Golem is cited as being made of Bones (however it is not mentioned as having an actual skeleton, but I would image it would). I'd imagine the case would be the same for Flesh Golems, but I lack any source to back up such a claim. If not for their immunity of course.

It depends on your DM really. Does your DM believe that Angels, Demons and other Outsiders are invertebrates? I can't honestly answer that because it would vary from game to game. However, I will operate under the assumption that your DM is working on some level of logic similar to my own in that if the creature looks like it has a skeleton, it has a skeleton. Asking if a Zombie Ooze is possible is just down right silly. Unless you are working with the assumption that the Ooze has just eaten a creature and has a Skeleton in it.

A better way would be to specify exactly what creature types can be made into a zombie (such as stating that only humanoids, animals, magical beasts, and aberrations can be made into zombies, which is I think the restriction you were trying to make) than to state only that it needs to be corporeal and have a skeletal system. The skeletal system even seems iffy to me, but I guess if they turn into skeletons later then it makes sense.

I would basically be listing through all the creature types asking myself "Are there any creatures in that listing that lack a Skeleton?"

Also, you never mention how any type of zombie (especially a mindless one) manages to designate a HD limit on its Zombie Powder. Not to mention, how would a mindless zombie know how many HD anything has? That's likely a difficult for a normal commoner to accomplish, and they probably have at least 10 Intelligence. These things have 0. Also, with a DC of 11 you haven't exactly made zombies any more terrifying. My 1st level fighter will have to roll somewhere in the range of 6-7+ to beat that save, and after a few levels everybody and their mother is laughing at that save. And on a tangentially related note, how the hell do I MAKE Zombie Powder? It has a listed price, and a craft DC, but conceptually I'm drawing a blank on how this stuff is acquired other than hiring adventurers to murder the things or having a farm full of trained zombie-handlers.

That is a legitimate concern actually. Zombie Powder is made the same way Baccaran and Terran Brandy is brewed. I could say that it is made from Pufferfish powder, but it's effects would be entirely inaccurate. I would be better off stating that it exist and just leaving it at that, however the DM wants to dictate how such a poison is developed is entirely up to them. The DC for getting infected with Zombie Powder from an actual Zombie is equal to it's special attacks DC.

And if you're trying to make zombies suck less, why make it so they have less actions than they do now? The single action thing makes sense from a fluff perspective, but if you're trying to make them seem intimidating, the inability to chase after me and attack after I just stabbed one in the neck certainly doesn't instill terror in me. I think you've got a good idea here, but some of these things are really hindering your idea of "less sucky zombies".

Not all Zombies are created equally and the capabilities of the individual Zombie SHOULD have a level of impact on the creature. The Commoner array is a 10 in each ability score and with the modifications of the Zombie template turn that into a 12 in strength and an 8 in dexterity, thus making them have the single action ability. I'm not going to say that all zombies are chasers (Ex.28 Days Later, Hunters from L4D or more recently The Last of Us), however I'm not going to say that all Zombies are shambling corpses (Ex. Dawn of the Dead and other classic Zombie films) since I don't believe that is how a reanimated corpse should appear like.

The -2 dex penalty from the Zombie template is supposed to symbolize the setting in of rigor mortis, infestation with bugs, vermin, natural decay of muscles, and an all around lack of a healing metabolism.

Fako

I agree that a distinction needs to be made on the types that can be affected. While I don't remember a bone golem, you could
technically zombify a flesh golem, which is rather... odd.

If the Flesh Golem has a Skeleton (something I find to be very likely actually) it should be Zombif-iable, however as it is a Construct it is immune to poison, disease and Necromancy Effects, such as Animate dead, this making it fairly moot to even attempt such a thing.

It almost feels like you have two templates here: One for an intelligent zombie, and one for a mindless zombie. Any particular reason you opted to have the intelligence slowly drain away from the victim?

For the first couple days of existence the Zombie is still a viable threat as it still has it's class levels. The idea was taken from a manga I read a while back and a series (or mini series would be more accurate) of comic books I collected when I was a kid (The Marvel Zombies mini series). A Lich is a Wizard who developed a method to sustain itself strictly on it's connection to the Negative Energy Plane (Van Richten's Guide to Lichs), however the line of reasoning is that this sort of Zombie has a temporary bond to the Negative Energy Plane and while that bond fades away, so does it's Intelligence until it is a mindless husk devoid of negative energy to sustain it's intelligence.

I'd like to believe that this sort of Zombie is more mundane than it is magical, however it can still be created through magical means.

Second, your Zombie Dust should be classed as a Disease instead of a Poison. Poison does secondary damage one time, then is rendered inert (DMG p. 296). However, Diseases don't have initial damage, so what you might want to do would be to pair the two: Have a poison (Zombie Dust) that has the disease as a rider effect. Like so: {table=head]Name|Type|Initial Damage|Secondary Damage|Price
Zombie Powder|Injury or Ingested DC 11*|Fatigue & Zombie Fever|None|50gp*[/table]*Assumes cultivation from a 2 HD zombie. For every additional 2 HD of the source zombie, add 1 to Save DC and 50gp to price

Consisting of nothing more than ground up zombie, zombie powder is typically employed by necromancers looking to separate themselves from a botched conquest attempt.

Zombie Fever
Typically transmitted via bite, Zombie Fever slowly kills off the flesh of the victim, turning them into a zombie.
Incubation Period: N/A
Save: DC 15 Fortitude
Ability Damage: 1 Con drain
Special: Any creature who dies while infected with Zombie Fever raises as a zombie 1d6 minutes after death.

NOTE: I'm guessing that the price per HD for infection was an attempt to prevent tougher zombies from being created by cheap poison, but it causes issues (as Phippster noted). Since tougher creatures are assumed to have better Fort saves, having a cost based on DC is a simpler metric, and your Zombie already has a bite attack that we can use to figure out the DC of the poison (which is noted below the poison itself). I also removed the secondary damage of the poison, instead shunting it onto the disease itself (with no incubation period, the creature will need to save instantly to avoid the initial 1 Con drain. If you want a delay, changing the incubation period would add one in.

This is actually not a bad idea and I will gladly accept the use of it, if you don't mind.

And finally, the fact that single-actions only now applies to a Dex 8 or lower zombie seems a bit out of place. Normally, higher stats are rewarded with templates, instead of lower ones being punished, as this can throw off your challenge rating adjustments. I'd personally drop the thing, due to how laughably bad it is. (I personally used the Speedy variant from Libris Mortis at all times, to prevent my party from kiting the blasted things.)

Flanking & Charging might help you get around the kiting problem. A zombie by itself is a depressingly easy encounter, even at 1st level. It is for this very reason that Zombies are used as stock creatures with you throwing wave after wave of them at your enemies. There should, for any given zombie based encounter, be at least 4 undead per party member. With this version of the template the creature can actually stand a threat as a stand alone encounter.

Pulling again from Libris Mortis (pages 9 and 10), Your "Diet Dependent" quality more closely reflects what the book considers an Inescapable Craving. I'd honestly suggest changing it to those rules, as it doesn't make sense that a Zombie becomes less able to bite things as it desires flesh more heavily. Here's how the book handles it (shortened, of course):A sentient undead with an Inescapable Craving must feed every day, or suffer 1d6 Wisdom damage (Will 25 to resist). When it feeds, it regains all damage that was lost due to this ability.

As its wisdom drops, it becomes more willing to attempt plans that it would not consider were it more sane, as it knows that feeding will calm down the desire. Should it reach zero wisdom, it's psyche is consumed by the hunger, and it attempts to feed in any way it possibly can (even to the point of attacking party members and/or innocents, whichever is closer).

That is what I was trying to remember from the book. Thanks.

Iceforge

Unless you make changes, as suggested by others, to the DEX 8 and lower = partial actions only, then change the CR description to reflect that:

Challenge Ration: As Base Creature +1 (Dex 8 and lower), +2 (Dex 9 and higher)

Since the majority is that the ability should be removed, it will be removed.

Thanks for the commentary and advice ladies and/or gentlemen.

Cheiromancer

2013-08-15, 08:30 AM

The notion that hungry zombies will have a wisdom of zero has some interesting consequences. Like that they are less likely to hear or see prey (-5 penalty to spot and listen checks, which is bad if you have no skill ranks).

I think that a lot of the features you are adding to this template (the need to eat flesh, condition transmitted by disease, etc.) are already possessed by the ghoul. I think a refluffed ghoul - with their nifty paralysis attack and ghoul fever - is pretty close to what you want. The intelligence is kind of high, but that seems to power their skill ranks. You could fluff that as instinctive cunning, and emphasize that they have no logical or reasoning ability. Add a -6 penalty to all Int-based skills to reinforce the point.

A characteristic feature of D&D zombies is their low charisma. That won't work if they have special abilities, since it would make the DC's of their special abilities too low. You might want to add steep penalties to social skills to compensate. Not that I expect them to be engaging in diplomacy or gathering information, but the penalties reinforce the idea that they are hideous, disgusting monsters incapable of social interaction.

Fako

2013-08-15, 08:40 AM

If the Flesh Golem has a Skeleton (something I find to be very likely actually) it should be Zombif-iable, however as it is a Construct it is immune to poison, disease and Necromancy Effects, such as Animate dead, this making it fairly moot to even attempt such a thing.
RAI, you are correct. RAW, the template itself designates what it can and cannot be applied to in its opening statement - it doesn't matter how it is applied, as long as the creature is 'eligible'. Easiest possible "fix" is to change "any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system" to "any living corporeal creature that has a skeletal system". Constructs and Undead do not count as "living", thereby ruling out the biggest offenders of the bunch.

For the first couple days of existence the Zombie is still a viable threat as it still has it's class levels. The idea was taken from a manga I read a while back and a series (or mini series would be more accurate) of comic books I collected when I was a kid (The Marvel Zombies mini series). A Lich is a Wizard who developed a method to sustain itself strictly on it's connection to the Negative Energy Plane (Van Richten's Guide to Lichs), however the line of reasoning is that this sort of Zombie has a temporary bond to the Negative Energy Plane and while that bond fades away, so does it's Intelligence until it is a mindless husk devoid of negative energy to sustain it's intelligence.

I'd like to believe that this sort of Zombie is more mundane than it is magical, however it can still be created through magical means.

I looked the series up on Wikipedia, and the idea of Zombie Hulk scares me. However, I see where you're coming from with having them retain their original selves.

That is what I was trying to remember from the book. Thanks.
Always happy to assist. With your new version, you forgot to put how often they must eat to avoid the damage.

Arcanist

2013-08-15, 08:14 PM

RAI, you are correct. RAW, the template itself designates what it can and cannot be applied to in its opening statement - it doesn't matter how it is applied, as long as the creature is 'eligible'. Easiest possible "fix" is to change "any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system" to "any living corporeal creature that has a skeletal system". Constructs and Undead do not count as "living", thereby ruling out the biggest offenders of the bunch.

Good point.

I looked the series up on Wikipedia, and the idea of Zombie Hulk scares me. However, I see where you're coming from with having them retain their original selves.

I'm considering making it so that the creatures retain a level of intelligence provided they eat and making the Wisdom damage into Intelligence damage.

Most creatures created in a Zombie Apocalypse are just commoners so even if they lose their intelligence and class features, they are actually slightly better for it. An adventurer Zombie however might prove a little bit more dangerous to encounter, especially a spellcasting Zombie that can just use Telekinesis to grapple the creature and eat it alive.

HA! Magneto thought he could escape the end of the world... :smalltongue:

Always happy to assist. With your new version, you forgot to put how often they must eat to avoid the damage.

Adjusted. Thanks again.

Fako

2013-08-15, 09:17 PM

I'm considering making it so that the creatures retain a level of intelligence provided they eat and making the Wisdom damage into Intelligence damage.

This, I like. However, would this just delay the loss of intellect, or would it also delay decomposition?

Adjusted. Thanks again.
No worries - I'm a huge fan of undead myself (which is why all three of the monsters in my sig are undead...)

I know I'll eventually end up using this, so having it get buffed and polished means less headache for me down the road. :smallsmile:

Arcanist

2013-08-16, 04:34 AM

This, I like. However, would this just delay the loss of intellect, or would it also delay decomposition?

I'm torn between completely removing the lose of int from decomposition, which I feel that it would completely betray what I originally had in mind for it, and causing it to restore Int after each meal OR just causing it to delay the lose of Int by 1 day for every pound of flesh they eat.

No worries - I'm a huge fan of undead myself (which is why all three of the monsters in my sig are undead...)

Holy crap, even the fluff for your monsters is beautiful. :smallbiggrin:

I know I'll eventually end up using this, so having it get buffed and polished means less headache for me down the road. :smallsmile:

I prefer using the Dicefreak cosmology where the planes of all the campaign settings are all connected in some way, shape or form. It allows PCs to be from Eberron, while still adventuring in the Realm or being from Krynn and still be able to fight in a Homebrewed campaign setting or the like. All the worlds are connected.

Having said that, with the use of this template it makes the massive infection of the planes a much more daunting event since losing is literally up there with allowing Pandorym to reunite with his body in that the game is over (all of them).