If you were Tarquin...

[ghoul-n]

...how would you protect yourself against possible assassination attempts?

I mean, IRL you have bodyguards and stuff, killing people usually requires some kind of device to be used and you can't get away with that usually. In a world of magic, though, those few guys that sit near you while watching some gladiator matches could very well start shooting disintegrates at you any given moment.

And you have to remain a public person and have your paranoid thoughts not cloud your common sense.

The only two things I can think about is that probably a) high-level spellcasters are scarce in OOTS world and b) Tarquin might've made a loveable image among the population + isn't that open about doing any tarquinish stuff.

On the other hand, he has statues of himself holding decapitated heads here and there and isn't all that charming with the Empire of Tears envoy. Not to mention all the slave thingy.

You can't think about all casters in the world, and, basically, all his schemes are one Teleport Withour Error - Disintegrate - Teleport Back Again (or Plane Shift or whatever) away from failing. And in DnD world you can be killed in such way that nobody would ever know that you even were killed in first place.

So, how to counter that? HP\saving throw build and stacking SR? Tipping off Rich for some solid plot armor? Making alliances with anything threatening enough?

[martianmister]

I would kill myself, so no one can kill me. Perfect protection...

...or, I'll secretly became a vampire, and tell it to no one.

[Arcanist]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

[Rakoa]

I would go nowhere without a +5 something of heavy fortification. That's for starters. +5 Spiked Gauntlets of Defending, +5 Armour Spikes of Defending, a Ring of True Seeing, +5 Cloak of Resistance, and probably an item of teleportation if necessary. Boots? Helm?

[ghoul-n]

Arcanist, but why would a death of simple general change anything :smalleek:? The Blood Empress would still be in charge.

That's a major flaw on his plans imo.

[The_Final_Stand]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

The Vetinari defence (A situation where you are in power is vastly preferable for everyone to a situation where you are not in power) is an effective one most of the time. It means that anyone willing to try and off you must be stupid enough to try while not regarding the consequences, and powerful enough to pull it off. The issue, of course, is that this is a system where someone can be quite dumb indeed whilst still being powerful enough to have an effect, which is not the case in the Discworld.

Someone could therefore attempt to assassinate you out of a misguided sense of good, or someone like Xykon could just come by, fully aware of the consequences, and do so anyway because they just want to watch the Western Continent burn.

In any event, most of what I've learned is that the only thing >Magic is either More Magic, or a similar amount of magic along with other bonuses. As such, find the best spellcaster you can and offer them whatever perks they ask for.

[DeliaP]

Ring of True Seeing and Ring of Regeneration on at all times provides a remarkably good start. He's hard to approach concealed, and can recover from mundane damage. (Of course, take it for granted he also has an assortment of other saving throw buffing feats and items.)

The biggest danger has to be getting taken out by a one-shot kill, that doesn't leave anything to regenerate. If they don't, not only is Tarquin still active, and so can choose options to fight or flee, and the assassin will then also be facing the rest of the mundane security service to slow him/her down. Being a melee specialist, he probably has a fair few hp's, so a one-shot kill is going to be hard. Take disintegrate: first he'd have to blow a fort save (unlikely) and even if he did, then he could probably survive the damage.

The assassin also needs to get in and get out succesfully, unless they're on a suicide mission.

Entrance to the palace, or any public arena where he is visible will involve passing magic item detection systems. Anyone unknown carrying items powerful enough to register above a certain threat level will ring alarm bells and be receiving special attention. That just means they'll be watched carefully - they won't be allowed into a threatening position.

So the assassin needs to have the power to take Tarquin down in one round, using means that don't show up on various detection spells. Pretty much requires a high level spellcaster, relying purely on spells and not buffed up with powerful magic items, and then teleporting out after the deed is done.

So: most rooms where he will be within contact with an unvetted person will be dimensionally locked to prevent any dimension door or teleporting out.

Similarly trapping those rooms or public spaces where he might come under attack with the same kind of trap that Darth V triggered. Trap set to trigger if certain types of spell are cast (above 3rd level, for example)..

(Come to think of it, Redcloak does seem like he's already thought much of this through!)

The question also becomes: if you are a high enough level spellcaster to have a chance of one-shotting Tarquin, are you going to risk walking into the middle of his lair with none of your normal magical items (buffs/weapons/defenses) to hand? You pretty much have to be a Darth V level of power to consider it.

And if the question is: could a Darth V class spellcaster act as an assassin that is nigh unstoppable to anyone less than an Epic spellcaster? Probably. But could anyone afford their services?

Finally, the last line of defense: raise dead, from his team? Killing any one of them isn't much more than a speed bump. You either need to take all/most of them out semi-simultaneously (co-ordinated targetted attacks on six different characters with similar levels of preparedness) or else the only way to stop their plan is to actually expose it and/or bring down the empires themselves (in other words, oppose them by more conventional means).

[davidbofinger]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

This may be one of those few cases where Godwin's Law does not apply.

Do you feel a similar argument can be made against killing Hitler?

[Skarn]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.I don't see that. He's acting as a general/adviser, that makes him expendable. If he dies the only vacuuming that will happen is the confetti on the floor at his funeral. :smalltongue:

Actually, leaving him alive will cause power vacuums, as he regularly topples the governments he pretends to serve.

This is exactly the kind of guy who gets targeted in the Assassin's Creed games. Targeting someone is useless if they only represent what the society as a whole wants, but a guy like this has his own agenda, and no one can readily step up to replace him. In fact, at this point his signficance seems to be a secret, so I'm not sure who would even tell his story (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). Elan maybe?

[DeliaP]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

I respectfully disagree. The power vacuum collapse, replaced by something worse, is one scenario. It is certainly the kind of scenario that someone like Tarquin would put forward. But is not the only possible scenario or perspective.

Toppling an evil dictator may well lead to his replacement by another dictator, but it is by no means guaranteed that the replacement is going to be worse. It is almost a certainty that they will be less competent than Tarquin, and therefore a weaker regime. A weaker regime is a step in the right direction, as it makes a further replacement by a better regime more likely.

Toppling an evil dictator may lead to the state breaking up in a civil war. If you are on the side of the CG rebels, you may actually regard the break up of that state as a good thing. Regardless of whether you are CG, NG or LG, you may believe that a war against evil is worth fighting. You may believe that the short term cost is outweighed by the ending of the long term cost.

Toppling an evil dictator may lead to you being carried through the streets, to the large statue of him holding severed heads, which the cheering crowds are pulling down and beheading.

(BTW: I'm going to say in advance that arguments based upon totalling up "How Many Die" is a very problematical territory, so I'm not personally going there on these forums).

[ghoul-n]

Also, just reminding that it doesn't have to be a single character to attempt a murder. 5 mid-high level mages, who can just cast Disintegrate and Teleport will do.

Hell, even 20 low-mids with magic missiles.

[Arcanist]

Do you feel a similar argument can be made against killing Hitler?

Circumstances unfold in more than one way. Hitler and Tarquin are as different as Lemons and Pears in that Tarquin is only on an advisory role while Hitler took on a more personal command.

Skarn

I don't see that. He's acting as a general/adviser, that makes him expendable. If he dies the only vacuuming that will happen is the confetti on the floor at his funeral. :smalltongue:

Anybody with an Int score above 3 can tell that despite him being a "humble adviser", he is the true power behind the throne. Without him the Empire of Blood won't last a week.


Actually, leaving him alive will cause power vacuums, as he regularly topples the governments he pretends to serve.

Power vacuums that will be consumed by him, if not by him than the cycle will continue as per normal. Nations will rise and people will die in the fall.


Toppling an evil dictator may well lead to his replacement by another dictator, but it is by no means guaranteed that the replacement is going to be worse. It is almost a certainty that they will be less competent than Tarquin, and therefore a weaker regime. A weaker regime is a step in the right direction, as it makes a further replacement by a better regime more likely.

Like I said. The cycle will continue. Nations will rise and people will die in the fall.


Toppling an evil dictator may lead to the state breaking up in a civil war. If you are on the side of the CG rebels, you may actually regard the break up of that state as a good thing. Regardless of whether you are CG, NG or LG, you may believe that a war against evil is worth fighting. You may believe that the short term cost is outweighed by the ending of the long term cost.

This is all idealistic and Civil War is an undeniable event if Tarquin dies. People are going to die on a massive scale and, potentially, the Empire of Blood will get picked at like a corpse from the surrounding nation while any form of civil war goes on. Ian might (might) succeed in an active rebellion, however it likely be without the aid of Elan (kind of bad for business if you're only legitimate claim to power is the dictator's son).


I'm going to say in advance that arguments based upon totalling up "How Many Die" is a very problematical territory, so I'm not personally going there on these forums.

It's a simple matter of using evil to defeat evil and is a matter of in-comic philosophy as well as being fan speculation so there shouldn't be much of a problem. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and that's all there is to it (what? you expect me to eat my hat?)


I respectfully disagree. The power vacuum collapse, replaced by something worse, is one scenario. It is certainly the kind of scenario that someone like Tarquin would put forward. But is not the only possible scenario or perspective.

I don't recall saying that it is the ONLY possible scenario only that it is a more likely scenario (unless Elan interferes of course). Tarquin is an Autocrat and the son most likely to try and follow in this scenario hates him enough to actually want to go through with it and fulfill Tarquin's plan only under his banner.

I believe that Nale attempting to complete Tarquin's goal would be a sort of twisted universe justice between the two characters. Tarquin dies and is never capable of fulfilling his dream of a unified empire and Nale, who hates his father to the core, ends up becoming him and attempting to follow in his foot steps.

[Synesthesy]

Tarquin is sure that, for the rule of drama, he won't be killed until the right moment, and then the villain must die. But he won't care, he'll have won and he'll get to be a legend.

[DeliaP]

Circumstances unfold in more than one way.
<snipped stuff>
This is all idealistic and Civil War is an undeniable event if Tarquin dies. People are going to die on a massive scale and, potentially, the Empire of Blood will get picked at like a corpse from the surrounding nation while any form of civil war goes on. Ian might (might) succeed in an active rebellion, however it likely be without the aid of Elan (kind of bad for business if you're only legitimate claim to power is the dictator's son).

It's a simple matter of using evil to defeat evil and is a matter of in-comic philosophy as well as being fan speculation so there shouldn't be much of a problem. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and that's all there is to it (what? you expect me to eat my hat?)[/SPOILER]

I don't recall saying that it is the ONLY possible scenario only that it is a more likely scenario (unless Elan interferes of course). Tarquin is an Autocrat and the son most likely to try and follow in this scenario hates him enough to actually want to go through with it and fulfill Tarquin's plan only under his banner.

I believe that Nale attempting to complete Tarquin's goal would be a sort of twisted universe justice between the two characters. Tarquin dies and is never capable of fulfilling his dream of a unified empire and Nale, who hates his father to the core, ends up becoming him and attempting to follow in his foot steps.

I'll be brief as I don't know we can really go far without getting into Real World Stuff that have already threatened to break into the thread.

You asked:


Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

The answer is that there are other scenarios, in which your proposed outcome isn't the way it goes. So when you say:


I don't recall saying that it is the ONLY possible scenario only that it is a more likely scenario

I would simply disagree that the good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough person would necessarily think that your scenario is the more likely.

And that's about as far as I can go on that, as there's too much subjective judgements involved about things being more or less likely, and things being more or less bad in the long run. It's just my personal call about trying to avoid getting too into that particular kind of forum discussion: No, I am not expecting you to eat your hat. :smallsmile: I'm just trying to respectfully offer another perspective, and then leave it at that.

EDIT: Aww, shucks, I've just thought of a non-real-world analogy so good, that I can't do what I just promised to do!

When you saw the Death Star blow up in Return of the Jedi, did you think:

"Well that's terrible! Now there'll be a power vacuum, the galactic empire will break up in civil war. It would have been a better thing to accept the lesser evil and leave Palpatine in power. What were Luke, Leia and Han thinking? They were just using evil to defeat evil!"

:smallsmile: :smallsmile:

[Coat]

When you saw the Death Star blow up in Return of the Jedi, did you think:

"Well that's terrible! Now there'll be a power vacuum, the galactic empire will break up in civil war. It would have been a better thing to accept the lesser evil and leave Palpatine in power. What were Luke, Leia and Han thinking? They were just using evil to defeat evil!"

:smallsmile: :smallsmile:

Yep, pretty much. I mean honestly, the first Death Star's needless destruction of Alderaan is a fairly hefty weight on the Empire side of the scale, but probably not even measurable compared to the number of deaths that will result from an Empire that size breaking up.

I've always seen the star wars films as high slanted propaganda in favour of a bunch of cold murdering terrorists.

But this is rapidly headed towards a morally justified thread, and the initial premise was fun, so let's not go there.


I'd point out that you don't get to be even a low to mid level mage by considering your person expendable. First level mages learn quickly that the rest of the party exists to be their meat-shield, or don't reach second level. That kind of attitude doesn't lend itself to suicide missions.

That said, something that provides permanent Death Ward has got to be a priority for someone in T's position. Otherwise he's just one bad roll away from a re-roll.

Personally, I'd try to go for some kind of suggestion or domination effect, targeting the lower will save of fighters. While that can't off him directly, you 'suggest' that he might like to go visit a secluded area of the city late at night without his usual entourage, and then attack him there. This gives you enough control over the scene to make destroying the remains possible, and prevents anything other than true res. I'd guess that he always has someone (Malack?) near him at social functions monitoring and protecting against this. M would be a good choice, as he'd be tricky to influence the same way.

Or, you know, there's always poison. What are the options there?

[DeliaP]

I've always seen the star wars films as high slanted propaganda in favour of a bunch of cold murdering terrorists.


You know, that would make a good sig! :smallsmile:



But this is rapidly headed towards a morally justified thread, and the initial premise was fun, so let's not go there.


Agreed!



I'd point out that you don't get to be even a low to mid level mage by considering your person expendable. First level mages learn quickly that the rest of the party exists to be their meat-shield, or don't reach second level. That kind of attitude doesn't lend itself to suicide missions.

That said, something that provides permanent Death Ward has got to be a priority for someone in T's position. Otherwise he's just one bad roll away from a re-roll.

Personally, I'd try to go for some kind of suggestion or domination effect, targeting the lower will save of fighters. While that can't off him directly, you 'suggest' that he might like to go visit a secluded area of the city late at night without his usual entourage, and then attack him there. This gives you enough control over the scene to make destroying the remains possible, and prevents anything other than true res. I'd guess that he always has someone (Malack?) near him at social functions monitoring and protecting against this. M would be a good choice, as he'd be tricky to influence the same way.


My guess is that, although he may have a low will save progression (although he may also have an optimised multi-class or prestige class combo that isn't so bad there) he'll have made at least some attempt to address low will saves by now: iron will type feat, cloak of resistance +4 or +5 etc. Hell, Owl's Wisdom every day. You'd still have to be reasonably powerful to get a good chance of success, so again we're talking high level caster.

You also need to be able to get close enough to cast it, and not be noticed casting it. Again, the spell traps going off could be set for activating whenever a spell of the enchantment [mind-affecting] school gets cast. As soon as anyone else knows you've cast the spell, the plan is basically blown.

(BTW: was there an SRD/RAW explanation of that trap that Redcloak set?)


Or, you know, there's always poison. What are the options there?

Well, anything that could in principle have been available in the middle ages here, could presumably be countered in the same way? Even before we consider customised Detect Poison dinner plates.

[Kish]

Hell, Owl's Wisdom every day.
You mean every half hour, or do you mean a house-ruled 3.0ed version?

[DeliaP]

Hell, Owl's Wisdom every day.
You mean every half hour, or do you mean a house-ruled 3.0ed version?
Ooops. Fair point! :smallredface:

[Amphiox]

You mean every half hour....

Perhaps you can get a wand for that....

[Synesthesy]

When you saw the Death Star blow up in Return of the Jedi, did you think:

"Well that's terrible! Now there'll be a power vacuum, the galactic empire will break up in civil war. It would have been a better thing to accept the lesser evil and leave Palpatine in power. What were Luke, Leia and Han thinking? They were just using evil to defeat evil!"

:smallsmile: :smallsmile:

Yeah, you don't think so, but it IS what happened in the canonic sequel (book, videogame, etc). There is the civil war between the New Repubblic, the Imperial Remnent (I don't know how it's written ;) ) and some other faction. Until the Invasion.

[Skarn]

Just a note Arcanist: A couple of the quotes you attributed to me were actually from DeliaP.


Anybody with an Int score above 3 can tell that despite him being a "humble adviser", he is the true power behind the throne. Without him the Empire of Blood won't last a week.

Power vacuums that will be consumed by him, if not by him than the cycle will continue as per normal. Nations will rise and people will die in the fall.
Fair enough.

But in the end that isn't going to stop most people. There's probably a dozen arguments for why he's better off dead. We could go into the details if you want to, but given that Tarquin himself fully expects to be stopped, I doubt he is expecting this kind of argument to protect him in the first place.

Tarquin is sure that, for the rule of drama, he won't be killed until the right moment, and then the villain must die. But he won't care, he'll have won and he'll get to be a legend.
Ironically, despite all the Darth Vader references, he never considered the possibility of a heel-face turn. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HeelFaceTurn) Though Elan probably did.

Yep, pretty much. I mean honestly, the first Death Star's needless destruction of Alderaan is a fairly hefty weight on the Empire side of the scale, but probably not even measurable compared to the number of deaths that will result from an Empire that size breaking up. If I recall, the Empire never broke up, it was simply absorbed into the New Republic.

Which, incidentally, gives the scenario a character more akin to a civil war than an actual rebellion.

[Jay R]

...how would you protect yourself against possible assassination attempts?

I wouldn't bother. Let them try. Assassination attempts are part of the genre.

Besides ... their every move makes his victory more complete (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0785.html).

And most assassination attempts would be aimed at the Empress, anyway. I expect that Tarquin would help them succeed, and then offer to be the assassin's new warlord.

[LasVegasLawyer]

...how would you protect yourself against possible assassination attempts?

Two ways - first, by not making yourself that much of a target. To the public, he's a mercenary. The real power, and thus the real target, is the king / queen du jur. Second - by gaining power (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0657.html).

[luc258]

By making somebody else, e.g. a big, dumb, fat red dragon, the official ruler while pulling the strings from the background.

[Malistrae]

First: Become a dread necromancer (it will make sense later). Seriously. Tarquin is charismatic enough, has immense resources. I don't think multiclassing from Fighter (?) at his high level would be really detrimental. As a dread necro, I could cast most of my own abjurations, so I don't have to really on other casters, who might betray me.
Second: once I reach 20th level of Dread Necro (use some life extension trick to last that long, since Tarquin is already pretty aged)=>I automatically become a lich. Seriously, liches are very hard to kill due to their whole slew of immunities and that little phylactery.
Third: wait for the rest of my team to die off, then make Malack an offer he couldn't refuse: serve as my aide forever, or get dusted. This confrontation would ideally take place in daylight, so I can use Nale's trick to quickly finish him if needed. Or just rebuke him into submission if possible (dread necros can rebuke and control undead like evil clerics).
Fourth: Turn everyone in my empire into mindless undead and enslaved sentient undead so they can't rebel, ever. Keep a small amount of slaves to breed (new materials for my undead armies plus food for my vampire slaves).
Fifth: Conquer the rest of the Western Continent.
Sixth: Built a huge dimensionally locked and protected fortress underground and never leave it.
Seventh: Rule forever. Possibly conquer the rest of the continents. Turn the entire world into a huge Necropolis of enslaved undead, so the only threats to my rule would be extraplanars (who I plan on conquering, eventually). Once the entire universe is bound to my will, no hero can ever rise to challenge me.

[Scurvy Cur]

Regarding Tarquin's saves:

Just to throw out some hypotheticals, a dip into blackguard, a dip into rogue, and access to +5 resistance and (if OotSverse will let him, which it may well) +5 luck boosts to saving throws, and you have a very hardy Tarquin. We can already guess that he has a reasonable amount of charisma, and probably rather a lot of it, so assume for the sake of calculation that he's got 20ish (a nice round number, easily obtained, and a blackguard with even just a dip in the class has plenty of uses for it). This amounts to +15 to all saves, and evasion from that rogue dip. These are nice things for a fighter to have, and synergize decently on a character that has, to all appearances, high strength and charisma scores.

Toss in the fact that Tarquin has shown himself to favor defense/survivability over raw aggression in the one combat situation he's been in on-panel, and such an approach wouldn't surprise me at all to see. I'm aware all of this is just guesswork, but it is possible without digging too deep for supplemental rules or stretching what we know of the character too far.

For an extra layer of itemized protection to shore up any remaining will save vulnerability, Tarquin may also have procured an item of protection from good (permanent effect). SRD's notes put the cost for such an item at 4k-ish, and the item suppresses the effects of all charm and compulsion effects (regardless of caster alignment). This would certainly be cheaper than the ring of true seeing, and he may even have gone for something much splashier like a mind blank item, but that would run a couple hundred k handily, and he might have issues procuring it.

And really, if you, as a Mage, have survived long enough to toss down save-or-die magic, how willing would you be to try and assassinate a guy who you will be praying rolls a 1 and might just have a wand of dimensional anchor to keep you from getting to safety? My bet is not very.

[SavageWombat]

I think Tarquin's attitude is that one can't prepare for every contingency, so if you lose, oh well. You did the best you could.

I think he's also using his genre savvy to consider that, though it's possible for terrorists to strike in that fashion, they frequently just don't. For whatever reason.

Further comparison to modern politics is not appropriate for the thread.

[Newwby]

Given his willingness to part with a ring of regeneration I wouldn't be surprised if he had some handy-dandy regen gear or temporary hit points gear.

If I were playing a fighter of Tarquin's level at least some of my gear would be put aside for utility 'cast spell of level' gear. Magic is just far too important to not be considered by a tactician of his caliber.

[Lord Raziere]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

because FREEDOM!! *pulls trigger*

*proceeds to fight for nation of freedom in coming chaotic power vacuum, also nabbing all the good weaponry and supplies first before anyone else knows whats happening*

[Aldrakan]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

They're chaotic and believe that people being free is more important than them being "safe" under Tarquin's despotic rule.

They're idealistic and think that whoever replaces Tarquin will be better (not hard, frankly).

They just hate Tarquin and don't care about the broader implications.

They're power hungry and intend to fill the vacuum themselves.

They're not an intelligence based class and haven't realized what will happen.

They're evil and actively want the destruction his removal would cause.

This is just scratching the surface, and none of these things are incompatible with being high level.

[BlackDragonKing]

And if the question is: could a Darth V class spellcaster act as an assassin that is nigh unstoppable to anyone less than an Epic spellcaster? Probably. But could anyone afford their services?

I think a better question might be why a spellcaster with Darth V's abilities and/or general power level would be working as an assassin for other people, or why Tarquin and his ilk would merit assassination plans while such a caster was loose in the world. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

Tarquin's stretegy has been to act like a high level minion. You don't assassinate him. You assassinate the Empress, and you "get" Tarquin to help you. {You start realizing this policy has drawbacks about a year later when Tarquin assists the next clown to assassinate you.}
Those smart enough to notice the empress is a figurehead have to avoid asking Malack to help them take out Tarquin [or vice-versa]. And neither is an easy target.

[rs2excelsior]

Arcanist, but why would a death of simple general change anything :smalleek:? The Blood Empress would still be in charge.

That's a major flaw on his plans imo.

Ninja'd multiple times, but yeah, this is his first line of defense. He isn't the one that needs assassinating, at least ostensibly. And some have suggested that he help the next figurehead assassinate the previous one; I doubt it. It's bad for business. Unless you get an absolute moron, he/she'll realize that Tarquin could just as easily do the same to them.


This may be one of those few cases where Godwin's Law does not apply.

Do you feel a similar argument can be made against killing Hitler?

Yes, actually. Near the beginning of the war, the Allies tried a few times to kill Hitler. Later on, though, they stopped, because they realized he was doing them a favor by not letting his generals fight the war without interference. In fact, the famous July 1944 plot (the same one that's the subject of the movie Valkyrie) was executed by German army officers.

[Gift Jeraff]

Anyone with a high enough intelligence score or level would realize that killing Tarquin is much worse idea than leaving him in power. Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death. Imagine how bloodthirsty and evil someone would have to be to fill that power vacuum. Imagine how many lives would be lost in such a conflict to fill that power vacuum.

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

"Tarquin's stability decreases the quality (and duration) of life for his people. Conversely, Ian Starshine would, if able, bring more Chaos into the Western continent (and thus improve everyone's fate)..." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15378004&postcount=142) --Richmond Burlew

[veti]

Now tell me why anyone good enough, intelligent enough or powerful enough to actually pull the trigger would willingly do that.

Even if they accept your analysis: on average, two-thirds of high-level spellcasters are not Good-aligned.

But they do want XP. Killing Tarquin would probably be worth pretty much a whole level in itself to, say, Vaarsuvius.

I think the OP raises a good question, and one that I'm sure Tarquin has thought about. I can only assume he has active defences against such tactics.

[mhsmith]

Ninja'd multiple times, but yeah, this is his first line of defense. He isn't the one that needs assassinating, at least ostensibly. And some have suggested that he help the next figurehead assassinate the previous one; I doubt it. It's bad for business. Unless you get an absolute moron, he/she'll realize that Tarquin could just as easily do the same to them.


You mean like this moron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)? or this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)? :smallwink:

[rs2excelsior]

You mean like this moron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html)? or this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html)? :smallwink:

Point. I'll give you the second one unconditionally, but I get the impression that the first actually used to be somewhat capable, both physically and mentally. Admittedly we only see the old Empress once, and she doesn't speak (the flashback panel of Tarquin vs Nale), so I really have no evidence for this theory.

[Ward.]

Any attempt to take out the big T would have to be done by a group of people who were aware that he's the power behind the thrones and were willing to go head to head with his epic friends.

Also aparently in oots verse greater then level 10 casters don't just grow on trees.

[Mike Havran]

The best defense is to make your enemies believe that by attempting to kill you, they will gain little and lose/risk a lot. Tarquin does exactly this.

He is a general, a high-paid, probably a higher level minion. He spends most of the time commanding soldiers, officiating gladiatorial games and hanging out with diplomats. How would you determine his level or CR? Remember that general Chang from Azure City had only two attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) on a full round attack so he wasn't even level 10. We only know he is powerful because he was unaffected by Holy Word from lv14 cleric with Good domain but nobody except the Order or LG knows that. Thats so much for the powerful Exp. hungry mages. And I can imagine a mid-level party that underestimated his power and went after him, failed miserably and got a TPK.

Second, by his death, the system will most likely collapse within a few weeks and empire of this size will implode and split into several fractions which start fighting one another. If the assassin's goal is to rule a kingdom of his own, he would be much better off trying to accomplish it in one of the smaller states in western or southern part of the Western Continent.

And third, imagine that there will be somebody both determined and powerful enough to kill him. How would that be different from a paladin breaking into his room and killing him? Cost of doing business. His untimely death is the price for living like a god that he may eventually pay and is willing to pay.

[veti]

The best defense is to make your enemies believe that by attempting to kill you, they will gain little and lose/risk a lot. Tarquin does exactly this.

That defence relies on knowing who your enemies are and what they want. For Tarquin, it'll work well against pretty much anyone on the Western Continent; but against (say) a troop of neutral adventurers from the Area Formerly Known as Azure City, it's useless.

[martianmister]

Imagine the massive power vacuum that would be left over from a man like Tarquin's death.


Second, by his death, the system will most likely collapse within a few weeks and empire of this size will implode and split into several fractions which start fighting one another.

About the stability of EoB's government:


Instead of thinking about the end state and whether it was a stable government, think about the delta-v: Did the rule of law have more of a hold in Azure City at the end of Shojo's rule—compared to when he took office—or less? Clearly, less. Before Shojo ascended the throne, it is highly unlikely that his father ignored the rules that he found inconvenient, encouraged the nobles to blame each other for his unpopular edicts via an elaborate ruse, seized citizens of other countries on charges he knew to be false, and snuck around making secret policy behind the backs of even his own most trusted advisors. You can't separate the fact that his government fell apart when Shojo died, because that was a direct result of him kneecapping that government over the years so that it depended on him, personally. Shojo was handed a Lawful system and made it more Chaotic than it was before, so that only his own personal scheming was holding it together.

Then, look at Tarquin. Does the rule of law have more of a hold in the Western Continent today than it did before he and his allies came to power, or less? Clearly, more. Before Tarquin, small tribes and city-states warred with each other constantly, resulting in no civilized settled territories that would last more than a few years. To the point that people didn't even expect them to last anymore. Tarquin unified dozens of these small tribes into three coherent states, such that they have greater stability. If Tarquin died unceremoniously tomorrow, the whole thing might well keep on functioning indefinitely because the people barely even know he's involved beyond being a really good military leader. Tarquin was handed a Chaotic system and made it more Lawful than before.