What makes polymorph (3.5) so broken?

[Cheiromancer]

Are there any spells that are more than one level off?
I'd say lots. For just two easy examples ... I've said before that I'd peg Alter Self as Level 4 (or 5, maybe), and Polymorph as Level 7 (or 8, maybe).


I like the idea of polymorph (well, really the idea of playing a monster out of the book), but it seems to be commonly understood that the current polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) is too powerful.

With an eye to "fixing" polymorph, what are the areas that make it so darn strong?


Is it the tactical flexibility? The ability, upon casting the spell, to choose a form that is perfect for the current encounter?

Is it the strategic flexibility? Maybe having to choose your form when the spell was memorized would still be too much. Okay then: suppose one spell just gave you giant forms (specific form chosen in the morning), and another magical beast forms, etc.. How much would that help? Would it need to be broken down to particular forms (one spell for trolls, another for displacer beasts, etc.) as in the PHB II?

Is it because the spell gives you gestalt abilities? The polymorph subschool in PHB II takes away your class abilities. If polymorphing into a hag meant you could not cast spells, how far would that take you to fixing polymorph?

Is it because the hit dice limits don't adequately constrain broken abilities? Ropers have a CR higher than their hit dice, and are available too early. Would a cap based on CR help?

Is it because of abilities that are just too powerful (or problematic) in the hands of players? Is there a way of categorizing these abilities? (e.g. creating spawn, innate spellcasting above their HD and CR)

Is the duration too long? The PHB II versions have 1 round/level durations and a swift action casting time. Is this a nerf, a boost, or just neutral?

Is the spell level too low? How do you determine the right spell level? Clearly a polymorph that only gave you the form of animals with 5 HD or less would be a lower level than one that gave you 20 HD outsiders. What guidelines help eyeball a spell level?

Other reasons?

I'd love to have a version of polymorph that allows supernatural and spell-like abilities as well; this would allow a monster to be played right out of the book. Obviously, however, there needs to be limits on these abilities (see point 5). I don't want to overdo it on the nerfs, but I want to make sure that I have a correct understanding about what is wrong with polymorph.

At the moment I'm thinking of the following combination of fixes:


Limiting tactical flexibility. The form is chosen when you prepare the spell (or regain spells, if you don't prepare them).

Breaking polymorph into groups. Outsider forms are their own spell, as are undead, as are constructs. Aberrations, oozes, plants and vermin are in one group of "weird stuff".

Raising spell levels. The basic polymorph (animal, dragon, fey,giant, humanoid, monstrous humanoid, magical beast) is 5th level, the others are higher.

CR limits. Instead of just HD = caster level, I'm imposing a CR of no higher than 2/3 caster level. And CL is capped, too, like the damage caps for spells.

No gestalt. You can't use your own abilities when you are in a monster form; you play the monster, not a combination of yourself and a monster.

No 1/day abilities. Actually, I am thinking of cutting the ability frequency in half. As if the monster were taken near the end of its adventuring day, and had used up most of its limited abilities. At wills would still be available.

No recursion. The monster can't shape shift or have inherent spellcaster levels. I don't want it to summon allies or create minions or spawn, either.

Death penalty. The monster has its own hit points, but the subject takes damage and is dazed if the assumed form is killed.

However, I want to make sure that I am not missing anything. My current implementation of these ideas is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15769436&postcount=1).

[Rebel7284]

It's all of the above.

It's powerful AND flexible AND has no real cost besides a standard action.

Since CR and HD are both ineffective ways of gauging a monster's power, there is no real way to filter what monsters are more appropriate than others.

[Big Fau]

Also going from Str/Dex 10 to Str/Dex 20 is really stupid.

[ksbsnowowl]

It's not broken. It's based on all the mythological stories D&D was based on. Perfect game balance isn't achievable. Everyone can benefit from polymorph anyway, so I don't see the problem.

- DM who uses the permanent duration Polymorph Other in his games.

[supervillan]

The polymorph spells are not all that hard to police. You need to control access to all the multifarious forms that the spellcaster wants to abuse: you simply require familiarity with the form to be assumed.

This is easy enough for a caster to achieve for a basic, low HD beastie. Want to Alter Self into a Lizard Man? You only need a DC12 (give or take) knowledge check result. If you want to polymorph into a 10 headed cryohydra, that's at least a DC20 knowledge check. If you want to be harsh, you can rule that to gain full possesion of all of the assumed form's powers requires a high enough knowledge check result to know all of those powers as if each separate ability were an additional 5DC increment, as though the monster were being encountered for the first time.

Each category of monsters falls within a particular knowledge skill: no single skill covers all of the desirable forms. Certainly it's possible to build a transmuter wizard specialised in assuming new forms and focussing on maxing out appropriate knowledges, that's OK I think. But this ruling prevents automatic polymorph abuse, and means that players of spellcasters cannot assume automatically to be able to assume any monster form in any published game books. They can become anything they've encountered in the specific campaign (within the other limits of the spells) or that they have studied in sufficient detail. Books containing accurate monster descriptions (bestiaries) become almost as valuable as spellbooks to PCs.

[Raineh Daze]

It's not broken. It's based on all the mythological stories D&D was based on. Perfect game balance isn't achievable. Everyone can benefit from polymorph anyway, so I don't see the problem.

- DM who uses the permanent duration Polymorph Other in his games.

D&D is based on Taliesin? :smallconfused:

And, well... it is kind of broken, so far as it gives the wizard the ability to be a better fighter than the fighter, and makes many melee classes' choices when levelling irrelevant when they get polymorphed. :smallsigh:

[eggynack]

It's not broken. It's based on all the mythological stories D&D was based on.

What? What does what you're saying here have to do with anything? If polymorph is significantly better than things other characters are doing at that level, that's an overpowered option. At a certain level of imbalance, particularly if there's some exploit, you have brokenness. The brokenness of an ability has nothing to do with whether it exists in some myths. Like, actual zero. It's a completely mechanics based assessment, which isn't informed at all by source material.

[Eldariel]

It's not broken. It's based on all the mythological stories D&D was based on. Perfect game balance isn't achievable. Everyone can benefit from polymorph anyway, so I don't see the problem.

- DM who uses the permanent duration Polymorph Other in his games.

Just because perfect game balance isn't achievable, does that mean at least some semblance of game balance isn't worth striving for? I do think Polymorph does a lot of stuff I wouldn't want in my games; I'm all for shapeshifting and I feel it's an extremely important part of the games but I feel it has to be able to coexist with mundane types if the system is to have any kind of power to portray classic fantasy archetypes.

If I play a Warblade, I'll probably usually want to play a somewhat humanoid character who uses a weapon instead of basically playing a 12-Headed Hydra. Polymorph makes being 12-Headed Hydra so easy that there's little point in even learning to use any weapons even for warrior-types, since it's just a plain more efficient way of attacking.

[Krobar]

Simply put? DMs not making casters be familiar with what they're turning into. Rule it so they can only polymorph or shapechange into something they've encountered and examined and you'll cut out 90% of the brokenness of these spells.

[Eldariel]

Simply put? DMs not making casters be familiar with what they're turning into. Rule it so they can only polymorph or shapechange into something they've encountered and examined and you'll cut out 90% of the brokenness of these spells.

Uh, Knowledges are all class skills for a Wizard and they have massive Int so they're gonna be familiar with an awfully large number of things. It does however restrict everybody else, especially those poor schmucks who try to UMD Polymorph or whatever to keep up.

Also, this doesn't fix anything unless you begin to restrict which creatures the world contains or nonsense to that effect and honestly, if a spell truly prevents you from including a large majority of the Monster Manuals, it probably shouldn't exist. Honestly, this is a fine rule; just assume it has nothing to do with balance since honestly, it certainly doesn't help and if anything, makes the overall effects of the spell even more caster-favored (Polymorph can certainly be cast on warriors and keep party roles straight and such but that does have the problem of requiring a warrior being ok with fighting as a Hydra/Remorhaz/War Troll/Sanguaro Sentinel/whatever). And it certainly doesn't restrict Wizards (different for Sorcs, granted; Druids and Cloistered Clerics don't largely care).

[DeltaEmil]

This only delays the problem for a very short while. They'll go actively hunt the hydras, dire bears, dire tigers and whatnot, and then be done with it. Also, there are magic schools and academies, druid circles and dedicated shrines or temples, where they learn, teach, and study all those critters (of course I know all about 8-headed hydras - it says so in my character background).

The easiest solution like always is to ban it outright, or tell the players that they should limit it to whatever is acceptable for the gaming group.

Some don't mind 12-headed hydra-fighters, others balk at this very idea.

[Piggy Knowles]

I recall a fighter vs wizard or monk vs psywar or similarly silly thread a while back. Polymorph/metamorphosis spells were called into question for that very reason - that a knowledge check was insufficient to be familiar with said creature, and that an encounter would be necessary.

So, the naysayer rolled on the random encounter tables a few times to see what his opponent would have access to. The first thing he rolled was an 11-headed cryohydra.

My point in bringing this up is that restricting the spell to monsters you have encountered is not really a way to balance Polymorph. You still run into the problem that every potential encounter can vastly increase the wizard's power and versatility - suddenly that cool cave troll encounter means a cave troll zombie for the party and the fact that the wizard is polymorphing the fighter into a rending, pouncing monstrosity with a base strength in the thirties. Polymorph and similar spells are not only incredibly flexible, they also just flat-out grant bonuses that are out of line with other spells of that level.

[Incanur]

Arguably only naturally large characters can take a hydra form with polymorph, but regardless the spell is nuts for all the reasons listed in the first post. The higher level versions get even worse. Polymorph itself is somewhat tolerable because of the limited duration if still extremely powerful, but polymorph any object and/or draconic polymorph with Persistent Spell mean everybody's a stone giant or whatnot all the time. I don't care for the aesthetics involved. Unfortunately, alter self encourages turning into either a flying form or one with +6-8 natural armor as a long-duration buff. It's kind of silly for optimized wizards to be hideous reptilian creatures or winged elves or raptorans in combat starting at level 3-5. While wonky, on the whole I feel the polymorph subschool spells do shapechanging better, at least for combat. Banning the most powerful forms and limiting polymorph and making its duration rounds per level would go a long way toward balancing the spell.

[Eldariel]

I recall a fighter vs wizard or monk vs psywar or similarly silly thread a while back. Polymorph/metamorphosis spells were called into question for that very reason - that a knowledge check was insufficient to be familiar with said creature, and that an encounter would be necessary.

Mh, the principal problem with this argument is that Knowledge is literally the only in-game mechanic for determining what you're and are not familiar with (which makes it kinda stupid so many classes can never get in-class ranks, let alone automatic ones, in the Knowledges that apply to enemies they've fought).

So suddenly you literally have no mechanic for having existed before the adventure began. I don't see how anyone could argue familiarity can't be mapped with the skill that enables you to, y'know, be familiar with a creature.

[Urpriest]

I recall a fighter vs wizard or monk vs psywar or similarly silly thread a while back. Polymorph/metamorphosis spells were called into question for that very reason - that a knowledge check was insufficient to be familiar with said creature, and that an encounter would be necessary.

In addition to the points you bring up, there's also the major point that you can't plausibly become familiar with something through fighting it anyway. You're in its presence for less than a minute, amped up on adrenaline, and then it's dead.

[CTrees]

The familiarization requirement, even if the DM is being annoying about it, is not a major constraint. First, there are only a few "power" forms needed (cryohydra, choker, etc.), limiting the actual amount of checks needed. Next, figure your average polymorphing wizard. He is Int-focused, so the knowledges he needs (and that's certainly not all of them) can be pushed quite high with truly minimal effort, trivializing the skilm checks. Further, with the array of spells available to a wizard, the couple checks he needs to make for the handful of forms he needs can be made with essentially no chance of failure, with a spell or three (again, a trivial "expense"). Note, though, that a DM arbitrarily setting the DC absurdly high is a jerk move - if you want to make it impossible to use, just ban it, don't set epic knowledge DCs to be able to use a mid-level spell to turn into anything more exotic than a cow.

Now, let's look at, "you must have encountered it." Again, wizard. Summon Monster spells allow the safe encountering of a number of forms. Calling spells allow for many, many more, with a moderate expense but still with no risk. Arguable how many, from the "low-end" of "all the non-native, non-templated outsiders" to the high end of either "fiendish versions of everything ever" if templates are allowed or "everything ever" by planeshifting some convenient, safe plane and Planar Binding things from the material plane. If you then say, no that won't work, you can't summon/call it, it has to be something you've fought and killed!" Well, okay. Some combo of divination spells should track down whatever you want, at which point you can revert to Scry'n'Die tactics, teleporting in and alpha striking it into oblivion.

Whatever degree of "familiarization" is required, all you that has been done is to add annoyance. Every strategy I've seen of using familiarity to mitigate the power of the polymorph subschool is easily subverted with a bit of effort. Maybe it's not worth it to get two hundred different forms, but just wandering around as a spellcasting cryohydra all day isn't a terrible nerf, you know?

Rather than combating this power with irritation and homework, instead just have the guts to deal with it directly. Talk to your players and get them to not break the game. Failing that, just nerf or ban it. Ban specific forms - perhaps they don't exist in your game world, or are too powerful to be mimicked? Require the forms to have a LA - otherwise they're too alien to control beyond their simple body, eliminating the more desireable traits. Maybe try using the Pathfinder versions, which do things like give stat bonuses instead of replacements (actually a huge deal for bruiser forms). "Polymorph Any Object has a duration capped at minutes per level and is not persistable" is a totally reasonable houserule if you're that worried.

[Krobar]

Uh, Knowledges are all class skills for a Wizard and they have massive Int so they're gonna be familiar with an awfully large number of things. It does however restrict everybody else, especially those poor schmucks who try to UMD Polymorph or whatever to keep up.

Also, this doesn't fix anything unless you begin to restrict which creatures the world contains or nonsense to that effect and honestly, if a spell truly prevents you from including a large majority of the Monster Manuals, it probably shouldn't exist. Honestly, this is a fine rule; just assume it has nothing to do with balance since honestly, it certainly doesn't help and if anything, makes the overall effects of the spell even more caster-favored (Polymorph can certainly be cast on warriors and keep party roles straight and such but that does have the problem of requiring a warrior being ok with fighting as a Hydra/Remorhaz/War Troll/Sanguaro Sentinel/whatever). And it certainly doesn't restrict Wizards (different for Sorcs, granted; Druids and Cloistered Clerics don't largely care).

You rule it how you want. Making a knowledge check about a creature you've never encountered in my games will give you general information. It won't give you detailed information as to its anatomy and all of its abilities. You want that info too? You need to encounter it. You want to polymorph into it? You need detailed information. Reading about it in a book in some bard's library doesn't give first-hand knowledge.

And I don't restrict what the world contains - I restrict what the PCs encounter, both for their own good and the good of the game. When they're to the point that shapechanging into a pit fiend (for example) isn't going to break the game, that's when they just might encounter a pit fiend somewhere along the way.


I also put spellcasters on the other team. That goes a long way to balancing out problems with things like Shapechange and Polymorph spells.

[Evolved Shrimp]

"You must be familiar with it." - What would that mean in the real world, e.g., with respect to a person?

"I have read about her" (or heard tell of her)? In most cases this probably wouldn't be called familiarity.

"I have passed him on the street" (or watched him shop)? Not enough, usually.

"I had a fight in a pub with her"? No, that neither.

If these principles are applied to a D&D scenario, it means that neither an encounter nor a fight nor a knowledge check (which reprents theoretical learned knowledge) would suffice to be "familiar" with a creature - it would be necessary to actually observe them in their normal life for an reasonable period of time.

When one follows this reasoning, it seems quite possible to manage the problematic aspects of polymorph spells by insisting on familiarity with the target form.

Some forms would be easy to learn - dogs, sheep, goldfish, gulls. Others, such as mind flayers, would require considerable more effort and risk.

[Eldariel]

You rule it how you want. Making a knowledge check about a creature you've never encountered in my games will give you general information. It won't give you detailed information as to its anatomy and all of its abilities. You want that info too? You need to encounter it. You want to polymorph into it? You need detailed information. Reading about it in a book in some bard's library doesn't give first-hand knowledge.

Knowledge-check has varying degrees of familiarity, y'know. If you exceed the minimum score with, say, 10, can you truly argue he wouldn't be extremely familiar with the creature.


And I don't restrict what the world contains - I restrict what the PCs encounter, both for their own good and the good of the game. When they're to the point that shapechanging into a pit fiend (for example) isn't going to break the game, that's when they just might encounter a pit fiend somewhere along the way.

So what, PCs are basically forbidden from exploring the world? Why can't they choose to go to the Red Wyrm's lair should they find it to try to pull off some Bagginsey burglarly if they so desire? If they Plane Shift to the Hell, do you truly just make sure they cannot encounter Horned Devil or some such?

That doesn't sound good for either DM's freedom nor the players' freedom; requires a lot of railroading and again, restricts the kinds of encounters that can exist so you need to come up with some contrived reason why they can't find the Hydra's lair until they're tall enough to ride.


I'll repeat what I said earlier: None of what you said convinces me it's good for the game as a whole nor for the verisimilitude of the world nor for player enjoyment to basically forbid back stories and restrict what players can encounter until they're strong enough to fight it.

Hell, if you restrict e.g. Hydras like that you can never use them while they're still a challenge! Early Hydras are slow but immensely powerful melee monsters while later on Hydras aren't really even a threat. However, augmented with PC magic a Polymorphed Hydra is far more threatening than the real thing.


I also put spellcasters on the other team. That goes a long way to balancing out problems with things like Shapechange and Polymorph spells.

This isn't a PC vs. World problem. Fundamentally there's never such a problem since NPCs can always be at least as strong as the PCs. The problem is the intra-party balance, having non-casters feel useless, etc. And honestly, I don't want to be forced to be Polymorphed to contribute as a Fighter either; but the stat bonuses it gives are just so good it'd be really dumb not to.

The different PCs need to all fight together against the same enemies and for most players it's probably not very fun to be playing the sixth fiddle to your allies and all their underlings.

[CTrees]

"You must be familiar with it." - What would that mean in the real world, e.g., with respect to a person?

"I have read about her" (or heard tell of her)? In most cases this probably wouldn't be called familiarity.

"I have passed him on the street" (or watched him shop)? Not enough, usually.

"I had a fight in a pub with her"? No, that neither.

If these principles are applied to a D&D scenario, it means that neither an encounter nor a fight nor a knowledge check (which reprents theoretical learned knowledge) would suffice to be "familiar" with a creature - it would be necessary to actually observe them in their normal life for an reasonable period of time.

When one follows this reasoning, it seems quite possible to manage the problematic aspects of polymorph spells by insisting on familiarity with the target form.

Some forms would be easy to learn - dogs, sheep, goldfish, gulls. Others, such as mind flayers, would require considerable more effort and risk.

This sounds like it's easily accomplished via scrying. Takes some time, some repeated castings, sure, but being Big Brother for awhile doesn't seem like a huge burden. A mindflayer might take precautions against remote viewing, but would a war troll even care?

[DR27]

Everything the OP describes contributes to making polymorph broken. Adding knowledge and familiarity rules don't really help either, they are just DM fiat saying "NO" to forms that the DM doesn't like/encourages players to seek out the monsters they want to become. The spell is just too good for player use. The mythical concept that it represents without the broken however, can be found by looking at the polymorph subschool spells (http://dndtools.eu/spells/sub-schools/polymorph/) published near the end of 3.5 (Spell Compendium has some more of these too). None of those is broken, they allow the players to assume new and interesting forms, and most important of all - still are appealing to players. If you want to fix polymorph, this is the way to go. It's harder to manage, but works. Creating your own spells for new forms wouldn't be that hard I imagine.

[Cheiromancer]

Remember that charm monster is a thing. It would make a form easy to study, if some version of supervillan's idea is included. It would also make all the monster's special abilities available to the group (though not gestalted with a player's).

I think the issue of "starting monsters" is one that can easily be handled by negotiation. If a player wants cloakers, cryohydras, remorhazes and war-trolls to be common enough that the wizard is familiar with them, then these sorts of monsters will be common adversaries.

[Urpriest]

The main problem with familiarity is that it's arbitrary. You're a Druid who grew up somewhere cliched like the Dales, you're familiar with horses and wolves and maybe bears if you're lucky. You grew up on the Talenta Plains, you've likely seen tame Fleshrakers. Game balance has no input here, despite the consequences being very much game balance-based.

Sure, you can decide as a DM to limit familiarity based on game balance. But that's not your job, that's the game designers' job, and chances are you're not going to be very good at it.

[Piggy Knowles]

Honestly, if I were to try to fix polymorph, I would just put a limit on what it can grant you. I'd probably look to Astral Construct for ideas on what it could grant.

[Krobar]

Knowledge-check has varying degrees of familiarity, y'know. If you exceed the minimum score with, say, 10, can you truly argue he wouldn't be extremely familiar with the creature.



Wizards don't know everything just by making a knowledge check by 10 with a low DC. I'll make the DC pretty high if they are looking for detailed anatomical information of a very rare monster.




So what, PCs are basically forbidden from exploring the world? Why can't they choose to go to the Red Wyrm's lair should they find it to try to pull off some Bagginsey burglarly if they so desire? If they Plane Shift to the Hell, do you truly just make sure they cannot encounter Horned Devil or some such?



Feel free to go aftre that red dragon. If you're not powerful enough to kill it, you're probably going to die.

Feel free to plane shift to Baator. If you're not ready for what you encounter, you're probably going to die.




That doesn't sound good for either DM's freedom nor the players' freedom; requires a lot of railroading and again, restricts the kinds of encounters that can exist so you need to come up with some contrived reason why they can't find the Hydra's lair until they're tall enough to ride.



They can go after the hydra. If they're not powerful enough to kill it, they're probably going to die.



I'll repeat what I said earlier: None of what you said convinces me it's good for the game as a whole nor for the verisimilitude of the world nor for player enjoyment to basically forbid back stories and restrict what players can encounter until they're strong enough to fight it.



Back stories should be reasonable. No back story I've ever read has "I've fought every monster there is."

But again, feel free to go after stuff you're not powerful enough to kill and see what happens. I restrict it by not throwing stuff at the party they're not ready and able to take on. If it's difficult to beat it, that's one thing. Something they can beat isn't far more powerful than they are. If it would stomp them into oblivion, that's far too powerful. If they want to search out a Balor at level 10, they're free to do so. And WHEN they find it, I'll run that Balor as hard as I can. I won't DM fiat the fight, but I'll run that Balor as smart and as strong as I can within the guidelines and the party will probably die if they're not powerful enough to beat it.




Hell, if you restrict e.g. Hydras like that you can never use them while they're still a challenge! Early Hydras are slow but immensely powerful melee monsters while later on Hydras aren't really even a threat. However, augmented with PC magic a Polymorphed Hydra is far more threatening than the real thing.



A challenge is one thing. Something that would just beat their behinds is another.




This isn't a PC vs. World problem. Fundamentally there's never such a problem since NPCs can always be at least as strong as the PCs. The problem is the intra-party balance, having non-casters feel useless, etc. And honestly, I don't want to be forced to be Polymorphed to contribute as a Fighter either; but the stat bonuses it gives are just so good it'd be really dumb not to.

The different PCs need to all fight together against the same enemies and for most players it's probably not very fun to be playing the sixth fiddle to your allies and all their underlings.

The thing is, all I'm doing is making sure they don't shapechange or polymorph into something substantially more powerful than THEY are. And in my games non-casters just about never feel useless. There's plenty of melee to go around. My player's don't play sixth fiddle to the NPCs and monsters. I just don't let them shapechange or polymorph into something far more powerful than THEY are by limiting their choices to what they've encountered and studied, and I don't throw things at them they have no chance of beating.

[Jack_Simth]

I like the idea of polymorph (well, really the idea of playing a monster out of the book), but it seems to be commonly understood that the current polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) is too powerful.

I've seen three basic approaches that have a reasonable chance of balancing the spell line:

1) Limited forms. You can't turn into every monster printed in any splatbook that meets a particular set of criteria - you're picking one from a small fixed list (possibly of one), similar to when you're casting Summon Monster. The homebrewer making the fix can balance the spell based around the specific forms available. This form was at least somewhat attempted in late 3.5 (see spells like the Holy Transformation line and the Infernal Transformation line in Spell Compendium). You can balance this around the specific forms available (as you now have a fixed list).
2) Mostly illusion. You don't turn into a hydra. You make yourself look like a hydra, and pick a small number of buffs from a fixed list. So your polymorph spell might look something like:

Pick a beast, and then select three items from the following list that are thematically appropriate to the beast:
Fly 60 (poor)
+4 Dexterity
+4 Strength
+4 Constitution
Claw 1d6+Str
Bite 1d6+Str
Swim 30 (and water breathing)
A size increase (along with +2 Str, -2 Dex, and +2 Natural Armor)
A size decrease (along with -2 Str, +2 Dex)
You become cloaked in an illusion of the beast you selected, and gain the abilites you selected from the list for the duration.
You can balance this based around the specific abilities that the spell can give you (as you now have a fixed list).
3) Variant Summoning. Polymorphing isn't you+. When you turn the rogue into an 11-headed hydra, the rogue does not get to apply sneak attack damage to all 11 attacks when flanking. When you turn the Wizard into an Imp, the wizard can no longer cast spells. The subject of a polymorph spell puts away their normal character sheet (including any buffs on his character) for the duration, and uses the monster's entry from the monster manual, minus problematic classes of abilities (anything that would cost XP if it were a spell, spellcasting, spell-like abilities, et cetera) for the duration. When the duration expires, any damage on the polymorphed form of the character is applied to the real form of the character (which may kill the character). If the character dies while polymorphed, the real character also dies (regardless of whether or not the real character had more hp than the polymorphed form). This can be balanced based around CR (although it would seriously help if the CR's of critters weren't nearly so hit or miss).

Now, those are just basic approaches to fixing it - they are not specific fixes, and would need tweaking (they can also be combined with each other, for the most part).

[Endarire]

Polymorph and co are powerful because of...

-Their versatility
-Ability score replacement
-Gaining a buncha resistances/immunities/natural armor
-Gaining useful movement modes like burrow, swim, and fly

For combat, polymorph works 'better' on someone with inherent higher BAB (3/4 or more) due to accuracy. Also, turning a Warblade/Swordsage into a Pyrohydra means Punishing Stance (+d6 damage per hit, -2 AC) and Burning Blade and similar manevers (+Xd6 fire damage per hit) deal loads more damage. But being a Hydra is usually good enough.

Polymorph and co are strong, but aside from the ambiguous polymorph any object and allowing super high natural armor from form (Ravid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ravid.htm) and Dwarf Ancestor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060704a&page=3), I'm lookin' at you!), polymorph remains a powerful and logical level 4 pick. It's a spell I'd recommend for pretty much anyone who can learn it, but it alone doesn't solve everything.

For a GM or a party unadjusted to the usefulness of polymorph and co, expect someone to feel inadequate. It's a cool ability that happens to be quite useful, too.

Things swing more in the Wizard's favor if he persists a draconic polymorph, which is perfectly rules-legal. It's a similar argument around thet able, but draconic polymorph is stronger, is self-only, and, with persistin', lasts all day.

[Rubik]

Everyone should note that you cannot turn someone into a hydra unless they are naturally between Large and Gargantuan size.

[Endarire]

Rubik: False. Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) in 3.5 has not the size limits that alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) does.

[LordBlades]

My 2 cents on what's being discussed around here:

-regarding the 'must have fought it to be familiar with it' idea:so you fight stuff for 10-12 sec, usually have no time for detailed body study and suddenly you know more about it than if you had read actual books on the subject? I like dogs. I've owned dogs. I've fought off dogs. I've seen roadkilled dogs. And still I'm 100% a scientific article on dogs contains more information on the 'inner workings' of a dog than all my practical experience. And in a world with wizard academies and polymorph, why would wizards not write books with detailed enough information on a monster so you can polymorph into one?

-regarding the general power level of Polymorph, yes, it's very high for the reasons that have been stated above, to which I'd add the fact that 'how does this thing interact with Polymorph/Planar Binding' doesn't seem to have been on the mind of 90% of monster designers at all. However, I feel banning/nerfing Polymorph hurts more than helps in the general context of the game.

First of all, does removing Polymorph help with the general dominance of casters over melee? Absolutely not. Wizards can still bury their enemies under a mountain of summons, bound creatures and animated undead and CoDzilla still owns any non-caster that comes within 10 miles/level radius of a melee combat.

On the other hand, Polymorph is the only good melee buff that doesn't have range: Personal. As in, you can cast it on the party fighter if you want to help. Literally everything else (Wild Shape, Bite of WereX, Divine Power, Righteous Might etc.) is caster only. As such, I'd say any nerf on Polymorph hurts non-casters more than casters, as it takes away pretty much their any chance to compete in a game with casters. A caster without Polymroph still has a ton of alternatives to win D&D. A fighter without Polymorph has no alternative to not suck.

[Lafaellar]

1. Polymorph yourself and your familiar into a rust monster
2. Laugh at the warrior oh and don't forget the iron golem.

When designing rules they either forgot to mention, that extraordinary attacks that are very powerful should count as supernatural attacks in regard of polymoprh or they forgot to make rust attacks supernatural to begin with.
Either way, it's hillarious the first time you pull it off.
Had my DM break a sweat but he was fine with it.
Didn't overuse it either.

[Rubik]

Rubik: False. Polymorph (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm) in 3.5 has not the size limits that alter self (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/alterSelf.htm) does.I'm fairly sure you're 100% mistaken. Note how it says that it acts as Alter Self, except as noted in the Polymorph spell description. As far as I'm aware, Polymorph does not mention size categories at all (other than limiting the lower boundary at Fine), meaning it inherits the restrictions Alter Self places on it.

[LordBlades]

I'm fairly sure you're 100% mistaken. Note how it says that it acts as Alter Self, except as noted in the Polymorph spell description. As far as I'm aware, Polymorph does not mention size categories at all (other than limiting the lower boundary at Fine), meaning it inherits the restrictions Alter Self places on it.

Polymorph does say that ' You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine' as the only restriction on size, which in my view is a new size restriction that overwrites the Alter Self size restriction.

[Rubik]

Polymorph does say that ' You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine' as the only restriction on size, which in my view overwrites the Alter Self size restriction.That just means that Alter Self can reach sizes smaller than Fine (if you can find any, anyway), whereas Polymorph cannot. Otherwise, it doesn't change those restrictions at all.

[Lafaellar]

Polymorph does say that ' You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine' as the only restriction on size, which in my view is a new size restriction that overwrites the Alter Self size restriction.

I think of it as an additional boundary.

[LordBlades]

I think of it as an additional boundary.

And I think of it as a 'instead of restriction X (from the alter self text) you now use this restriction instead'.

Without clear statement of designer intent, both interpretations can be argued as valid IMO.

[Eric Tolle]

Never mind Polymorph Self, try Polymorph Any Object: Wall of Iron + PAO = Wall of Gold, and I just ruined the economy of your game. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

[LordBlades]

Never mind Polymorph Self, try Polymorph Any Object: Wall of Iron + PAO = Wall of Gold, and I just ruined the economy of your game. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Add fabricate to turn it into easy to carry gold pieces.

You don't need magic to break the economy though. By RAW Craft rules you only need gold worth 1/3 GP to craft a gold piece:smallyuk:

[lord_khaine]

You don't need magic to break the economy though. By RAW Craft rules you only need gold worth 1/3 GP to craft a gold piece

Yeah? It takes time, work and special equipment to turn gold into the shape of a specific coin.

And by RAW Craft rules you wont earn more from this than from weaving baskets.

edit.


Never mind Polymorph Self, try Polymorph Any Object: Wall of Iron + PAO = Wall of Gold, and I just ruined the economy of your game. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

This isnt you ruining the economy of the game, this is you making fake money (the effect is permant, not instanteneous).
That will proberly then lead to you getting lots of exiting adventures trying to deal with results of your action.

[Eldariel]

Wizards don't know everything just by making a knowledge check by 10 with a low DC. I'll make the DC pretty high if they are looking for detailed anatomical information of a very rare monster.

That's fine. As long as the mechanic exist, they can make the check.


Feel free to go aftre that red dragon. If you're not powerful enough to kill it, you're probably going to die.

Feel free to plane shift to Baator. If you're not ready for what you encounter, you're probably going to die.

They can go after the hydra. If they're not powerful enough to kill it, they're probably going to die.

See, you're then not restricting the encounters the way you say you are; they may find these creatures. Additionally, they don't have to defeat them; how about just observe and TP away?

If this is true then it means you aren't actually doing a meaningful amount of restriction of various forms that can be encountered, and thus not restricting Polymorph in a meaningful way.


Back stories should be reasonable. No back story I've ever read has "I've fought every monster there is."

It's not "every monster there is" that matters; only very few Polymorph-forms are worthwhile in-so-far as being good enough to learn. Couple of scout forms (super-easy to come by), couple of combat forms (you're bound to face some magical beasts sooner or later), couple of mobility forms and you're done.


But again, feel free to go after stuff you're not powerful enough to kill and see what happens. I restrict it by not throwing stuff at the party they're not ready and able to take on. If it's difficult to beat it, that's one thing. Something they can beat isn't far more powerful than they are. If it would stomp them into oblivion, that's far too powerful. If they want to search out a Balor at level 10, they're free to do so. And WHEN they find it, I'll run that Balor as hard as I can. I won't DM fiat the fight, but I'll run that Balor as smart and as strong as I can within the guidelines and the party will probably die if they're not powerful enough to beat it.

A challenge is one thing. Something that would just beat their behinds is another.

The thing is, all I'm doing is making sure they don't shapechange or polymorph into something substantially more powerful than THEY are. And in my games non-casters just about never feel useless. There's plenty of melee to go around. My player's don't play sixth fiddle to the NPCs and monsters. I just don't let them shapechange or polymorph into something far more powerful than THEY are by limiting their choices to what they've encountered and studied, and I don't throw things at them they have no chance of beating.

But see, they can beat a Hydra early on. Indeed, Hydras are kinda pushovers due to their slow speed, lack of flight, lack of ranged attacks and low HP totals. Unless the Hydra gets the jump on you it's quite easy to roll with it, but in PC use it's much more powerful since, y'know, Polymorph plus buffs > the natural creature.

Polymorph and any challenging encounters inherently enable powerful near-broken forms that will make it much better to Polymorph than to try and fight it out. If you have caster PCs with Polymorph in the party, either your warriors fight as 12-Headed Hydras or the casters can fight as 12-Headed Hydras and outperform the warriors; neither is a scenario I'd actually consider desirable game-wise. And yeah, Polymorph means a Wizard is much more necessary for good melee than a Barbarian/Warblade/whatever.

[strider24seven]

I'm fairly sure you're 100% mistaken. Note how it says that it acts as Alter Self, except as noted in the Polymorph spell description. As far as I'm aware, Polymorph does not mention size categories at all (other than limiting the lower boundary at Fine), meaning it inherits the restrictions Alter Self places on it.

Even if this is *valid, then it takes a +1 spell-tax to make it function as most people interpret it, by simply becoming Large prior to casting. Enlarge Person is a good spell anyway. And even with that limitation Polymorph et al are still ridiculously good.

More on topic, Polymorph and it's big brothers, Draconic Polymorph and Shapechange, are broken because of their versatility and their sheer power.

If you take Krobar's route and limit Polymorph to only a handful of forms, then Polymorph is still good - take (Cryo)Hydra, War Troll, Roper, and as many utility forms as you can get. It's still the equivalent of multiple possible spell effects out of one slot, several of which make you equivalent to or better than an entire set of classes at their role. Oh, and it comes online as early as 7th for normal games.

The only real downside/aggravation with Polymorph is that it hedges out slot-space for Evard's Black Tentacles and Solid Fog.

The only real ways to 'fix' Polymorph are:
1) Be responsible as a player, and don't use the spell to detrimental effect - use it to supplement the fighter, not to obfuscate him. Turn him into a Giant rather than a Hydra, so he can still use his pointy sticks. And don't use it on yourself, unless you are the beatstick. And don't use it to trivialize encounters. That's just rude.
2) Ban it.

I recommend option #1. It seems the more elegant solution.

*I've never seen it interpreted this way by any DM, myself included, but I'm also not saying that it's invalid. It's up to you how you run your games, and I don't see that as an unreasonable interpretation.

[killem2]

That just means that Alter Self can reach sizes smaller than Fine (if you can find any, anyway), whereas Polymorph cannot. Otherwise, it doesn't change those restrictions at all.

As a DM, you are free to house rule polymorph all day long, but please don't state things as though they are RAW.

Until it says the same thing, you cannot. The spell it self clearly states works like alter self except. Thus, exceptions overrule the rest. :smallsigh:

[Eric Tolle]

One could always use Planar Binding to summon a Celestial or Infernal version of the monster you seek to duplicate, then study it at your leisure. If it breaks out, well, free XP!

[Gwendol]

As a DM, you are free to house rule polymorph all day long, but please don't state things as though they are RAW.

Until it says the same thing, you cannot. The spell it self clearly states works like alter self except. Thus, exceptions overrule the rest. :smallsigh:

Say what? Polymorph works like Alter self except that you are no longer restricted to the same type of creature. This means that the restrictions of one size larger/smaller relative to the subject still applies. There is no ambiguity what so ever in this.
Furthermore, Enlarge Person does nothing to change this since:

The new form must be within one size category of your normal size.

So to reiterate, polymorph, cast on a medium creature, allows it to take a form of small, medium, or large size.

[Eldariel]

Why do you all try to argue a topic that can't be solved by RAW? RAW says:
Polymorph
"This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature...You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form."
Alter Self
"The new form must be within one size category of your normal size."

So basically, minimum limit is changed to fine. Maximum limit is either removed (assuming the size limitations of Polymorph override the whole size limitations of Alter Self) or remains one category larger than the creature in question (assuming only the lower end limitation is changed).

Which interpretation is correct? Nobody knows, unless you've asked the WoTC employee (and honestly, considering WoTC's track record in wording and balance I wouldn't say intent is worth much here). You can rule it however you like; just stop acting holier-than-thou and pretending one clear correct interpretation exists, please.

[Qwertystop]

There's a third possibility: the minimum limit could be "one size smaller than your normal form" AND "no smaller than Fine".

[Segev]

No, I'm afraid that the RAW are clear in this case. I don't LIKE the RAW meaning, and would be delighted to accept an RAI that ruled differently, but the RAW state:

Polymorph "functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature."
It can be reasonably taken that there is an implied "except as written here," as well, else the majority of the wording not specifying new Types you can become is pointless, and specific does trump general.
Alter Self restricts you to "within one size category of your normal size."
Polymorph has a restrictive statement: "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form."
The restrictive statement of not being able to assume forms with these properties in no way contradicts Alter Self's restriction on the size of the form you may assume.
Since there is no contradiction, the two limits interact to form a more restrictive intersection of the sets of forms they would allow independently.

The "reasonable assumption" that Polymorph's language spelling out specific contradictions to Alter Self's limitations is overriding doesn't apply to the size limitations, because nothing in Polymorph's statement about the size(s) you may assume is permissive, which means it doesn't open up new options. The language of Types you can assume is permissive, so must override for it not to be meaningless.

A (normally) Tiny Monstrous Humanoid casting Alter Self is able to assume Diminuitive Monstrous Humanoid forms (if any exist), and can become an Unbodied (which is incorporeal), because Alter Self permits him to become any Monstrous Humanoid within one size category of his natural size. He could not use Polymorph to become either, because Polymorph adds restrictions to size and corporeal states it can grant.

RAI, this is probably wrong. But it is RAW. RAI alterations are still house rules, no matter how reasonable.

[Segev]

There's a third possibility: the minimum limit could be "one size smaller than your normal form" AND "no smaller than Fine".Precisely.

[Eldariel]

No, I'm afraid that the RAW are clear in this case.

I'm afraid you're wrong. See, nothing in the game actually tells you what passes for an overlap in rules; you cannot say with any authority that the section on size restrictions in Polymorph does not either entirely or partially override Alter Self.

Assume, for instance, that Alter Self rules are used only for areas where there are no rules on Polymorph; perfectly plausible interpretation by Alter Self and Polymorph wording. Polymorph does have size restrictions; therefore you'd ignore the whole statement on size from Alter Self since it's overridden by Polymorph.

This isn't the correct interpretation but neither is it incorrect. Hence, RAW is unclear. Now can we please move on?

[Vinyl Scratch]

Back in AD&D, polymorph effects required a system shock roll, the chance of passing was based on your constitution. Failure meant death.

I guess the idea was that the fighter types had the higher constitution, so system shock roll were easier for them, giving incentive to buff them instead of the magic user himself.

[LordBlades]

No, I'm afraid that the RAW are clear in this case. I don't LIKE the RAW meaning, and would be delighted to accept an RAI that ruled differently, but the RAW state:

Polymorph "functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature."
It can be reasonably taken that there is an implied "except as written here," as well, else the majority of the wording not specifying new Types you can become is pointless, and specific does trump general.
Alter Self restricts you to "within one size category of your normal size."
Polymorph has a restrictive statement: "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form."
The restrictive statement of not being able to assume forms with these properties in no way contradicts Alter Self's restriction on the size of the form you may assume.
Since there is no contradiction, the two limits interact to form a more restrictive intersection of the sets of forms they would allow independently.

The "reasonable assumption" that Polymorph's language spelling out specific contradictions to Alter Self's limitations is overriding doesn't apply to the size limitations, because nothing in Polymorph's statement about the size(s) you may assume is permissive, which means it doesn't open up new options. The language of Types you can assume is permissive, so must override for it not to be meaningless.

A (normally) Tiny Monstrous Humanoid casting Alter Self is able to assume Diminuitive Monstrous Humanoid forms (if any exist), and can become an Unbodied (which is incorporeal), because Alter Self permits him to become any Monstrous Humanoid within one size category of his natural size. He could not use Polymorph to become either, because Polymorph adds restrictions to size and corporeal states it can grant.

RAI, this is probably wrong. But it is RAW. RAI alterations are still house rules, no matter how reasonable.

In my book, the fact that multiple people are arguing against your interpretation would make it the very opposite of 'clear'

[Rubik]

In my book, the fact that multiple people are arguing against your interpretation would make it the very opposite of 'clear'Your version of the PHB must be very different than mine, since mine has no room for misinterpretation.

[LordBlades]

Your version of the PHB must be very different than mine, since mine has no room for misinterpretation.

Several people seem to disagree.

[Rubik]

Several people seem to disagree.Then several people are taking their unintentional houserules and arguing that they are RAW when they're not.

[ryu]

As has been repeatedly demonstrated the language shown can very easily mean two or even three extremely different things. You don't get to simply pick one as the all important RAW and claim all others to be house-rules because the others make their interpretations with the same authority you do.

[LordBlades]

Then several people are taking their unintentional houserules and arguing that they are RAW when they're not.

When there are roughly as many people supporting your position as they are rejecting it, saying that 'it's clear' sounds presumptious. None of us can objectively prove whether the size restriction in the text of polymorph is in addition or instead of the size restriction for alter self.

[Gwendol]

Pray tell, how do you argue that the size limitations of alter self are to be disregarded when polymorphing based on the existing text? The exception is with respect to the type of creature one can turn into, nothing else. The spell description then goes on listing what abilities of the new for are carried over, and lists one exception to the size changes. That's it.

Enumerating voices for and against is hardly an argument.

[eggynack]

Pray tell, how do you argue that the size limitations of alter self are to be disregarded when polymorphing based on the existing text? The exception is with respect to the type of creature one can turn into, nothing else. The spell description then goes on listing what abilities of the new for are carried over, and lists one exception to the size changes. That's it.

Enumerating voices for and against is hardly an argument.
Polymorph says that it acts as alter self does, except it gives new parameters for the forms you can take. One of the new parameters is that your size can't be smaller than fine, and this parameter is an aspect of the forms you can take, so it has the authority to be an exception. The question, as it stands, is whether the new size parameter replaces the old size parameters, or acts in addition to it. There doesn't seem to be a right answer as to which of these rule assessments is accurate.

[Hyde]

According to the tier system, and by extension, how we generally rate effectiveness around these parts, Versatility basically equals power.

And, especially considering the spell levels at which polymorph effects are found, The only thing more versatile is probably Wish, assuming that you haven't shapechanged (with appropriate feats) into something that can cast it as a spell-like or supernatural ability.

It's tier-1 in a single ability-a perfect answer to nearly every situation, effortlessly.



That said, my experience with the effect is limited, my players don't understand optimization at all (which I'm fine with) and, while it's entertaining as an academic exercise, doesn't really have a place in how I play, so... The actual effect on a campaign... I couldn't give you an example.


Anyway, all I really wanted to remark on was how I appreciate that someone else understands the difference between tactics and strategy.

[Gnaeus]

However, I feel banning/nerfing Polymorph hurts more than helps in the general context of the game.

First of all, does removing Polymorph help with the general dominance of casters over melee? Absolutely not. Wizards can still bury their enemies under a mountain of summons, bound creatures and animated undead and CoDzilla still owns any non-caster that comes within 10 miles/level radius of a melee combat.

On the other hand, Polymorph is the only good melee buff that doesn't have range: Personal. As in, you can cast it on the party fighter if you want to help. Literally everything else (Wild Shape, Bite of WereX, Divine Power, Righteous Might etc.) is caster only. As such, I'd say any nerf on Polymorph hurts non-casters more than casters, as it takes away pretty much their any chance to compete in a game with casters. A caster without Polymroph still has a ton of alternatives to win D&D. A fighter without Polymorph has no alternative to not suck.

I completely agree with LordBlades. If you nerf Polymorph, the moderately optimized wizard player replaces it with Summon Monster IV, Animate Dead, Solid Fog, or some other decent spell. Unfortunately, Polymorph on your fighter is a team action, which makes him feel awesome when you turn him into a troll and let him dominate an encounter, or into some flying or fire immune form to let him contribute when he would otherwise be useless or dead. Those other 3 spells I mentioned can also win a large range of encounters, but they do it by duplicating the fighter, instead of making him awesome. Yes, the wizard is very slightly weaker, and therefore more "balanced", but to operate at high effectiveness he is forced into tactics which make the fighter less relevant and the team game less fun.

[Segev]

I'm afraid you're wrong. See, nothing in the game actually tells you what passes for an overlap in rules; you cannot say with any authority that the section on size restrictions in Polymorph does not either entirely or partially override Alter Self.There is no need for a definition of "an overlap in rules." The rules are written in English, and are meant to be read and interpreted within the standards of that language except where the rules say otherwise (again USING that language to call out exceptions).

If I have a rule that says, "All blackbirds eat corn and have black feathers," and then another that says, "All crows are blackbirds and follow the rules thereof, and they also eat eyeballs and have yellow feet," that does not mean that the rules on blackbirds do not apply to crows except where I have expressly said they do not. It doesn't mean that crows have yellow feathers all over their bodies because they have yellow feet, nor does it mean crows do not eat corn. It just means they eat eyeballs in addition to corn, since the rules on blackbirds still apply.


Assume, for instance, that Alter Self rules are used only for areas where there are no rules on Polymorph; perfectly plausible interpretation by Alter Self and Polymorph wording.No, that actually is a completely implausible reading of the two spells' wording. Alter Self says nothing in its description about Polymorph. It doesn't say any part of it only applies to Alter Self and not to anything that "inherits" from Alter Self; it just says what Alter Self does.

Polymorph explicitly says it functions like Alter Self except for one specific thing. It then contradicts that, but because we're English speakers and thinking people we can clearly accept that any text that contradicts Alter Self must perforce override it, since it's meant for Polymorph.

What this does not reasonably allow us to do is say, "well, those other bits of Alter Self also must not apply, because this one here adds to them. Even though there's no contradiction, it must open up things that Alter Self closes off." Is it a perfectly valid house rule? Sure. But "you can't assume a size smaller than Tiny" and "You can only assume sizes within one size category of your natural one" do not contradict. Thus, the intersection of the two is used. Polymorph would have had to said something along the lines of "you may assume a form of any size so long as it is Tiny or larger" to produce an overriding contradiction.


Polymorph does have size restrictions; therefore you'd ignore the whole statement on size from Alter Self since it's overridden by Polymorph.You may as well claim that, since Polymorph specifically calls out that you gain (Ex) special attacks, while Alter Self said you retain your own class abilities, the former overrides the latter and polymorphing causes you to lose your feats and class levels and hit points.

Or that, because polymorph says a slain creature returns to its original form but remains dead, it must be overriding Alter Self somehow (since you're trying to argue that Alter Self is affected by Polymorph in order to prove that there's ambiguity) and thus things killed in Alter Self form don't revert to their natural form, but when they do (due to the spell wearing off), they're not dead anymore. Which is silly.


This isn't the correct interpretation but neither is it incorrect. Hence, RAW is unclear. Now can we please move on?No, your interpretation is incorrect, per the RAW. It's a perfectly valid RAI interpretation. Bad wording happens in D&D. But it's not what the RAW say. The RAW say that Polymorph inherits things from Alter Self. The RAW in Polymorph have a few contradictions to that claim; it is English-language reasonable to assume they're intended to override. Where Alter Self says something about which Polymorph is silent, however, there is no room to argue that Alter Self's stricture is lifted. Polymorph says something you cannot do, regarding size. It doesn't say what you can do. While one might, in a vacuum, reasonably assume that this means you can do anything it does not say you cannot, Alter Self does specify what you can do. And where it does not contradict Polymorph, it remains in effect.

Where it does, Polymorph can be assumed to override. Thus, the only valid reading of the RAW is that you can Polymorph into a creature within one size category of your natural form, but cannot do so if it would make you smaller than Tiny.

Again, I'm thrilled to accept a house ruling or a RAI argument that it's MEANT to be fully permissive, but that is not what the RAW say.



In my book, the fact that multiple people are arguing against your interpretation would make it the very opposite of 'clear'

There are people who still argue that the Earth is flat; does this mean that you feel it a valid topic for debate when their arguments do not hold water?

I'll go ahead and acknowledge it is not "clear" if "clear" means "nearly impossible to mistake." I do, however, stand by my claim that it is the only valid reading of the RAW that follows logical, English language, and D&D rules.

It is easy to mistake it, if one doesn't go back and read Alter Self to see if it has sizing rules, because Polymorph makes no permissive statements and, in English, absent such statements, we generally assume what is not restricted is permitted. But in order to make logical argument that Alter Self's permissive statement is not still in effect in Polymorph, Polymorph would have to provide contradictory or (better) specifically overriding language.

It doesn't. It provides a restrictive statement which only contradicts Alter Self's permissive statement if the target is already Tiny or smaller. The only remaining argument is that Alter Self's permissive statement is not restrictive; if that's the case, then Alter Self allows you to assume any size you like, just happening to mention in specific the ones to either side of you.

RAI, Polymorph may have meant to say, "You can assume any size that is Tiny or larger." That would override Alter Self's "you can assume any size within one of your natural one." But that's not what was said.

[Krobar]

That's fine. As long as the mechanic exist, they can make the check.



See, you're then not restricting the encounters the way you say you are; they may find these creatures. Additionally, they don't have to defeat them; how about just observe and TP away?


Looking at it and running away isn't going to give you detailed knowledge of its anatomy and abilities sufficient to actually polymorph or change shape into it.



If this is true then it means you aren't actually doing a meaningful amount of restriction of various forms that can be encountered, and thus not restricting Polymorph in a meaningful way.



If they go after something that they can't beat, they will probably die from stupidity. I'm not afraid to kill off characters for being stupid. I restrict what I throw at them as part of a plot. I don't prevent them from being idiots.



It's not "every monster there is" that matters; only very few Polymorph-forms are worthwhile in-so-far as being good enough to learn. Couple of scout forms (super-easy to come by), couple of combat forms (you're bound to face some magical beasts sooner or later), couple of mobility forms and you're done.


Again, if they can't beat it, they can't beat it. And they have to be able to beat it and experience it's abilities full-force and then examine it close-up to be able to become it.



But see, they can beat a Hydra early on. Indeed, Hydras are kinda pushovers due to their slow speed, lack of flight, lack of ranged attacks and low HP totals. Unless the Hydra gets the jump on you it's quite easy to roll with it, but in PC use it's much more powerful since, y'know, Polymorph plus buffs > the natural creature.

Polymorph and any challenging encounters inherently enable powerful near-broken forms that will make it much better to Polymorph than to try and fight it out. If you have caster PCs with Polymorph in the party, either your warriors fight as 12-Headed Hydras or the casters can fight as 12-Headed Hydras and outperform the warriors; neither is a scenario I'd actually consider desirable game-wise. And yeah, Polymorph means a Wizard is much more necessary for good melee than a Barbarian/Warblade/whatever.


If they find it, and then kill it when I've run it, then they can feel free to become it. But that doesn't mean there's a hydra around every corner just to make it convenient for them to find one. If/when they decide they want to hunt that hydra down, they're going to need to start researching on where they might find one. Then they can go after it and the one the heard about will probably be a thousand miles away. Just finding it will turn into a bit of an adventure all in itself taking multiple game sessions, possibly earning them a couple levels so that it's not quite so overpowered. I don't just put a Hydra down at the local petting zoo for them to go take a look at.


Everything else you've said about wizards and melee is one of the big drawbacks of D&D in general. Wizards have always been able to outclass fighters if they've planned ahead. That's just how it is. You can't fix that without rewriting the entire system.

[Eldariel]

Polymorph explicitly says it functions like Alter Self except for one specific thing. It then contradicts that, but because we're English speakers and thinking people we can clearly accept that any text that contradicts Alter Self must perforce override it, since it's meant for Polymorph.

This is the crux of the matter. We have to make a judgment call here; it's more than just a reasonable assumption. Polymorph lists exceptions to how it works from Alter Self; that's what the word "except" has to mean in this context (indeed, that's what you interpret it as; the except refers to not only the sentence that immediately follows as per normal but the whole section).

Now, it goes on to list a bunch of exceptions to the line "functions like Alter Self". One of those exceptions is that the minimum size is Fine. Since it's a list of exceptions, this line actually reads "Minimum size is fine instead of what it is in Alter Self". Thus, we then take the Alter Self rules and find the minimum size ("within one size category of your original size"; the line that determines size in the original), override it.


It's really a question of how you interpret the "except" in the start; syntactically read as stands it creates a contradiction that you pointed out as well. However, if we interpret it as affecting the whole text that follows instead of just the sentence that follows, there is no contradiction and everything works. By strict RAW (if you do not apply the except to the rest of the text) the spell is actually just Alter Self with slightly more permissive targeting, or a spell that plain doesn't work as it has multiple lines covering multiple targets.

Since the spell is written wonkily, you have to make an interpretation anyways; you just chose one where you selectively apply the word "except" and use the wording added in the text instead of the wording from Alter Self only where they are in a strict conflict. This is your assumption on how to solve the inherent contradictions in the spell (having max HD cap of both, 15 and 5, being restricted to only your own type and your own type + a bunch of others, etc.). I do not think the strict contradiction overlap only is a more valid interpretation than treating all the lines as exceptions.

[bekeleven]

This is the crux of the matter. We have to make a judgment call here; it's more than just a reasonable assumption. Polymorph lists exceptions to how it works from Alter Self; that's what the word "except" has to mean in this context (indeed, that's what you interpret it as; the except refers to not only the sentence that immediately follows as per normal but the whole section).
It reminds me a lot of 3.0 to 3.5 updates.

For instance, masters of the wild had a bunch of prestige classes, feats, etc. Then 3.5 comes along and updates... some of it. For instance, the shifter became the master of many forms. It wasn't called the shifter anywhere (although it had the class ability "shifter's speech"), but it specified in the fluff intro that it was nevertheless the update. That meant that "RAW", mythical construct that it is, declared the original MotW Shifter invalidated for 3.5 games.

The same book with the MoMF, Complete Adventurer, also updated the Animal Lord and Tempest prestige classes. These were not specified as updates. But they covered the same niche of rulings - a prestige class with the given name - so nobody plays the 3.0 versions. Complete Divine took the Geomancer. Complete Warrior took the Frenzied Berserker, Eye of Gruumsh, etc.

To put it simply, 3.5 is "Works like 3.0 except..."

So anything that was updated - such as the shifter, frenzied berserker, etc. - is completely replaced. Anything that is not - such as the oozemaster - is 3.5 legal by every ruling I've seen. It doesn't matter that the other parts of the book have been replaced, only that some parts have not.

The conclusion of this rambling, unfocused, poorly thought-out rant is that I view polymorph the same way. Just like the Animal Lord does not specify that it updates the 3.0 animal lord, Polymorph's description does not specify that it updates the size restriction. It just does so. And by doing so, the previous rules that applied thereto are invalidated. That's how wizards handles rules updates, or so I've noticed.

[Segev]

That's just it. It functions like Alter Self except that you cannot assume a size smaller than Tiny.

That means that you can assume a size within one size category of your own natural form (per Alter Self, as that is not changed by any text given), except that you cannot any longer assume a size smaller than Tiny (assuming you could before).

This isn't a judgment call. It's how the two texts interact.

I'm all for changing it for any real purpose of play. But that's the black and white text. Or black and brown, I suppose, if you use the hypertext d20 srd.org.

[ryu]

It functions as alter self EXCEPT this change to size guidelines. That sentence you love so much has multiple meanings fully supported by the English language. English is like that. If you don't take the time to get very specific about how your various adjectives, verbs, nouns, denotations and other such nonsense are meant to interact you create sentences with multiple meaning if you're lucky and complete nonsense if you're not.

[Segev]

Except that it doesn't say that it changes the part you're saying it changes. English works like this; you can add new clauses without altering old ones. And you've yet to point to where Polymorph says "you can assume any size Tiny or larger." If it said that, it would do exactly what you say it does. But it doesn't. It says "you cannot assume a size smaller than Tiny."

Here. Let me juxtapose the clauses for you. "You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size." "You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine[.]" (Okay, sorry, I've been saying "Tiny" when it's "Fine," so I stand corrected there.)

Now. Take a look at those two sentences. One is not incompatible with the other. The line, "This spell functions like alter self, except..." makes the first clause active, and the second one create an exception to it. Let me rephrase them as one:

"You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size, except you can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine."

Now, is that paragraph nonsensical? Does it contradict itself? No. It may seem pointless to add the stipulation about not allowing anything smaller than Fine, but that's true regardless since there is no size category smaller than Fine.

The phrase, "You can create a new character with an ECL within one level of your current character's, except that you can't make a character whose ECL is less than 1" is a meaningful phrase. It means that a level 1 character can only allow you to make a new character that is ECL 1 or 2, rather than one that is ECL 0, 1, or 2. That it would be impossible to make an ECL 0 character doesn't change that the sentence makes sense.

[Eldariel]

That's just it. It functions like Alter Self except that you cannot assume a size smaller than Tiny.

That means that you can assume a size within one size category of your own natural form (per Alter Self, as that is not changed by any text given), except that you cannot any longer assume a size smaller than Tiny (assuming you could before).

This isn't a judgment call. It's how the two texts interact.

That isn't an exception. It's only an exception if it changes a line in the original. Line "This spell functions like alter self, except that you can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine" contains the meaning that this line is a change from alter self. Instead of the size restriction of alter self, you follow the size restriction of polymorph.

How the texts interact, what's black'n'white, you should go tell a theologian how simple it is. It's really not. The plausible interpretations of a text are varied and complex enough that there are academic disciplines dedicated to it. Saying it's "simple as this, this is how the two texts interact" is quite the claim when we're talking about an interpretation.

[olentu]

That's just it. It functions like Alter Self except that you cannot assume a size smaller than Tiny.

That means that you can assume a size within one size category of your own natural form (per Alter Self, as that is not changed by any text given), except that you cannot any longer assume a size smaller than Tiny (assuming you could before).

This isn't a judgment call. It's how the two texts interact.

I'm all for changing it for any real purpose of play. But that's the black and white text. Or black and brown, I suppose, if you use the hypertext d20 srd.org.

How interesting. The size limit your interpretation claims polymorph inherits is based not on the size of the target of the spell but on the size of the caster of the spell. Not to mention the other rules inherited from alter self written using "you" instead of "the subject."

Actually, now that I think about it it is quite possible that the HD restriction on alter self would be inherited as well.

[Segev]

Technically, one of the overrides IS the targeting restriction. Though you're right, the HD limit is inherited. It's in your CL, as well.

Really, Polymorph is ill-written. Not as bad as many things, but it's hard to tell where the intent is in some of it. I do tend to agree that it's likely that RAI is that the size limitation is lifted. I kind-of question why they say "nothing smaller than Fine" but say nothing about a maximum size at Colossal. We're not dealing with epic monsters, and those're the only things that go to Colossal+. I'm not even sure 3.5 has Colossal+.

[olentu]

Technically, one of the overrides IS the targeting restriction. Though you're right, the HD limit is inherited. It's in your CL, as well.

Really, Polymorph is ill-written. Not as bad as many things, but it's hard to tell where the intent is in some of it. I do tend to agree that it's likely that RAI is that the size limitation is lifted. I kind-of question why they say "nothing smaller than Fine" but say nothing about a maximum size at Colossal. We're not dealing with epic monsters, and those're the only things that go to Colossal+. I'm not even sure 3.5 has Colossal+.

While the targeting restriction is overridden that does not mean that all references in the alter self spell to "you" are changed to "the subject," merely those in the "Target:" line.

[TuggyNE]

While the targeting restriction is overridden that does not mean that all references in the alter self spell to "you" are changed to "the subject," merely those in the "Target:" line.

Uhhhhh.

Given that polymorph specifically updates the HD limit to refer to the caster's CL, not the subject's, and given that that is almost certainly the only possible provision of the spell that absolutely must be kept as "you", I don't see that this is necessary to assume at all, and seems fraught with irresolvable problems of interpretation. For example, does the subject lose any abilities from the subject's normal form not derived from class levels… or from your normal form, which it probably didn't have any of anyway?

TL/DR: This way lies madness.

[olentu]

Uhhhhh.

Given that polymorph specifically updates the HD limit to refer to the caster's CL, not the subject's, and given that that is almost certainly the only possible provision of the spell that absolutely must be kept as "you", I don't see that this is necessary to assume at all, and seems fraught with irresolvable problems of interpretation. For example, does the subject lose any abilities from the subject's normal form not derived from class levels… or from your normal form, which it probably didn't have any of anyway?

TL/DR: This way lies madness.

Now now, the bit of text is "you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels" so you lose those abilities, not the subject. Admittedly this makes the spell work in a rather strange way, but it doesn't say that it changes the parts that refer to "you," except for the target line of course, so it doesn't change them.

[bekeleven]

Uhhhhh.

Given that polymorph specifically updates the HD limit to refer to the caster's CL, not the subject's, and given that that is almost certainly the only possible provision of the spell that absolutely must be kept as "you", I don't see that this is necessary to assume at all, and seems fraught with irresolvable problems of interpretation. For example, does the subject lose any abilities from the subject's normal form not derived from class levels… or from your normal form, which it probably didn't have any of anyway?

TL/DR: This way lies madness.

Yep.

We've started to interpret "works as alter self except" using RAW. And thus the universe was ended.

I think both sides can agree that regardless of the size limits polymorph was intended to have (or given by GMs' RAI), whatever it does give is wrong and causes explosions.

[TuggyNE]

Now now, the bit of text is "you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels" so you lose those abilities, not the subject. Admittedly this makes the spell work in a rather strange way, but it doesn't say that it changes the parts that refer to "you," except for the target line of course, so it doesn't change them.

Ah. So you're arguing that you target a creature, but that that creature is actually unaffected, and only the caster can be changed? Ingenious.

Edit: Oh no, my mistake; the caster and the subject would be changed. Much better.

[LordBlades]

If they find it, and then kill it when I've run it, then they can feel free to become it. But that doesn't mean there's a hydra around every corner just to make it convenient for them to find one. If/when they decide they want to hunt that hydra down, they're going to need to start researching on where they might find one. Then they can go after it and the one the heard about will probably be a thousand miles away. Just finding it will turn into a bit of an adventure all in itself taking multiple game sessions, possibly earning them a couple levels so that it's not quite so overpowered. I don't just put a Hydra down at the local petting zoo for them to go take a look at.



Scrying is a 4th level spell. Teleport is a 5th level spell. Divination is a 4th level spell. Contact Other Plane is a 5th level spell. Unless you place heavy (and often arbitrary) restrictions on this spells, there isn't much you can do to stop a wizard from finding a hydra, scrying on it, teleporting to it's location and killing it within 2 minutes.

[olentu]

Ah. So you're arguing that you target a creature, but that that creature is actually unaffected, and only the caster can be changed? Ingenious.

Edit: Oh no, my mistake; the caster and the subject would be changed. Much better.

Ah, now you're getting the idea.

[Incanur]

CoDzilla still owns any non-caster that comes within 10 miles/level radius of a melee combat.

This depends on what level you're talking about. At level 7, when polymorph becomes available, no cleric build I can think of even begins to compete with Shock Trooper and friends for sheer damage output. The only way a druid can do so involves a fleshraker form plus venomfire. With ample splat support, 3.5 melees excel at their chosen area of expertise, whether charging, AoO control, or archery. With the exception of the aforementioned druid build and perhaps a few others, casters can't easily exceed them in this area until at least the higher levels. Draconic polymorph and shapechange do the most in this regard. Banning or nerfing these spells constitute a step toward restoring a little balance. Polymorph itself gets more complicated because it can buff the melee character as you mention, but it's still the caster who decides whether and how to use it.


A fighter without Polymorph has no alternative to not suck.

Again, at least at the lower levels, this isn't true. Charger builds can obliterate even foes with CR far above their character level with a little luck.

Personally, I dislike the aesthetics involved in the polymorph line of spells even if they do at times boost the power of martial characters. (For an extreme example, consider how much being able to buy permanent duration polymorph any object into a stone giant for 1,200gp improves the monk! No more MAD worries!)

[bekeleven]

casters can't easily exceed them in this area until at least the higher levels. ... Polymorph itself gets more complicated because it can buff the melee character as you mention, but it's still the caster who decides whether and how to use it.

How about a Grell from Monster Manual 2? It's medium-size, so you're safe regardless of what size restrictions you use. 5 HD so you're good as soon as you can cast polymorph. 10 tentacles, each tentacle forces a save or 4-round paralysis, and a +16 racial bonus on grapples. Also, it has a fly speed*, allowing you to avoid chargers. Why do you need to do more than 1D4+1 per tentacle when you have 10 and can lock down all foes within your reach? Let the fighter deal the finishing blows, it sounds like he's proud of his damage.

Ankhegs are large, have +9 natural armor, 21 Strength, a bite that deals 2D6+1.5STR, and improved grab. If a medium-size sword wielder charges one, he just grapples it before it enters range. They're 3 HD.

Harpoon spider from MM3 can fire its fangs 20 feet and, if the target is medium or smaller, retract the fang along with the target, autotripping and starting a grapple. This can easily be readied in response to a charger, and the harpoon spider has a +10 to these checks. It also has one or two other fun tricks, such as body spikes that damage any foe hitting one in melee, or dex poison.

My point is that polymorph grants incredible flexibility, and that even if the charger beats the polymorphed caster for singe-round damage from 55 feet away, polymorph allows any number of ways to circumvent a one-trick character like that - as well as other tricks, too. The creatures I just mentioned are 3-5 HD, because the shapechanger I'm playing in my current game is 5 HD, but I'm sure once I level a few times I'll have some delicious 6-8HD forms.

*Said fly speed is actually disputable, since contradicting rulings could apply to it.

[Incanur]

To clarify, I'm saying polymorph and company are the main/only things that allow lower-level casters to match or exceed optimized martial characters in their area of specialization. I'm certainly not saying such martial characters are generally better in combat or anything like that. They're just really good at what they do. For example, countless obstacles and tricks prevent charging successfully.

For reference, a water orc barbarian/ftr/warblade build with max Str and whirling frenzy can deal around 130 damage at level 7 with a charge. That's assuming no single item more than 1/4 of total wealth; otherwise, a valorous weapon doubles the the damage.

[tiercel]

I'd say that just the fact that this thread, 13 years after the release of 3.0 and 10 years after the release of 3.5, still contains arguments about how polymorph does and/or should work, tells you something about how "broken" it is in terms of how the rules mechanics are written.

As for power level, yes, there's the raw flexibility / crazy scaling / spammability / "one spell gish" aspect of it (never mind that it is the single most important spell for an actual gish who cares about throwing down in melee, all the other possible buffs being more or less gravy in comparison until and unless they are actually superior versions of polymorph).

The other problem is that it can be unsatisfying to simply ban polymorph as shapeshifting magic is an iconic thing to do with magic. If celerity is pooing all over your game's balance, banning it won't particularly harm the "feel" of magic; banning polymorph means the only shapeshifters are druids or dedicated MoMF? (And "monster" types like dopplegangers and lycanthropes?)

There are "monomorph" spells of the polymorph subschool that are much more tightly defined, and I suppose one could say that if there are enough such spells, they could entirely replace polymorph, but it's not quite as cut-and-dried to simply banhammer this problem out of existence, at least to me.

[Keneth]

I've always hated the way polymorph spells worked in 3.5, and I'm actually really satisfied with how Pathfinder handled the issue. I can't actually think of a single better fix than that.

[killem2]

I'd say that just the fact that this thread, 13 years after the release of 3.0 and 10 years after the release of 3.5, still contains arguments about how polymorph does and/or should work, tells you something about how "broken" it is in terms of how the rules mechanics are written.


I don't. I think it shows the level of intelligence the community has. The community is vastly made up of thinkers and those thinkers are notorious for interpreting a question about a rule, mechanic, or ability as a need to change something.

For the most part, when the players start trying to assume what Wizard of the Coast intended to do, it ends in a bad, very bad, way.

That isn't to say Wizards of the Coast is free of guilt here. This is the very same company that wrote the rules for Magic: The Gathering, and they managed to close up every loop hole that comes up.

While the Rules Compendium and the nice break downs of rules at the end of each book are a good start and over view, a nice underlying rule book such as these (http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/resources/rules/MagicCompRules_20130711.pdf) would have been much needed.

Somehow, Wizards of the coast manged to put LESS rules in a rules book for Dungeons and Dragons, than they did for for MTG. They needed very badly to release a real hardcore, crunch rule book.

Because of this lack of effort on the companies part, we, the gamers are left with an army of arm chair WoTC-wannabes that think they know best. :smallannoyed:

[Segev]

Interstingly, a wizard with Improved Familiar and a +7 BAB can have a Winter Wolf that can, when the Wizard cast's Alter Self, transform into a Hydra.

Polymorph DEFINITELY can transform the Winter Wolf into a Hydra.

However, Alter Self clearly states that "[a] body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." Polymorph doesn't change this.

This somewhat begs the question: how many bite attacks is "normal?"

Or is that clause more there to prevent you from wielding multiple weapons, since natural attack routines come with their own "normal" number? (For instance, I think a wizard polymorphed into a simple wolf would get a bite and two claws, wouldn't he?)


To make matter worse, the Hydra's ability to attack with all heads as a Standard action "even if they move or charge" is listed as the first sentence in their Combat section, but is not listed as a Special Attack or Quality (and can only be assumed, by lack of any contrary text, to be non-magical).

So...DOES polymorphing (or Altering Self) into a Hydra, assuming you can legally do so in the first place (as a Winter Wolf familiar can have done to it), grant the multi-headed attack routine?

[Talya]

It's not broken. It's based on all the mythological stories D&D was based on. Perfect game balance isn't achievable. Everyone can benefit from polymorph anyway, so I don't see the problem.

- DM who uses the permanent duration Polymorph Other in his games.



I'm actually going to go with ksbsnowowl, here. It isn't an issue of mechanical balance. It's an issue of storytelling. This is pervasive throughout fairy tales and fantasy... magic allows you to do anything. Maleficent turning into a dragon would not have been particularly threatening if it didn't turn her into a badass dragon. How is Prince Philip going to be the hero if the villain he fights isn't a physical threat?

Is this overpowered?

Yes, but that's not the point. I've always been of the opinion that the DM can deal with this, and as long as the melees in the party have at least a little proficiency in "system mastery." I've always been able to-- but then my games don't run like miniatures battles/tactical wargames. They're grand epic stories. Mechanical balance is secondary for me. Magic really should have the ability to be that powerful.

[Eldariel]

However, Alter Self clearly states that "[a] body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal." Polymorph doesn't change this.

This somewhat begs the question: how many bite attacks is "normal?"

My reading is that this doesn't apply to natural attacks since they don't rely on limbs per ce; they're just a listed entry with a number of whatever for each creature that you inherit with Alter Self.

The number of weapons you can wield, on the other hand, is dependent on the number of limbs you've got (there's a "one weapon per X"-limit with some oddballs like Armor Spikes and Unarmed Strikes sidestepping it). So I would surmise this limit means even if your form has more limbs than your normal character, you cannot Multiweapon Fight.

[Krobar]

Scrying is a 4th level spell. Teleport is a 5th level spell. Divination is a 4th level spell. Contact Other Plane is a 5th level spell. Unless you place heavy (and often arbitrary) restrictions on this spells, there isn't much you can do to stop a wizard from finding a hydra, scrying on it, teleporting to it's location and killing it within 2 minutes.

If he can find a hydra, teleport to its location and kill it, all within two minutes, then his ability to turn into a hydra isn't really all that overpowered, now is it?

[ryu]

Oh it still is. Using wizard power to get even MORE wizard power is a hilarious part of what makes wizards so good. Even if you try to limit them they just use all their other tricks to laugh and immediately bypass them anyway.

[LordBlades]

If he can find a hydra, teleport to its location and kill it, all within two minutes, then his ability to turn into a hydra isn't really all that overpowered, now is it?

Hydras can't fly and have no ranged attacks. They also have Int. 2 Fly+Ray of Stupidity=risk free hydra kill. Adding Contact Other Plane, Teleport and Scrying into the mix, a wizard can achieve that at level 9.

A int 2 hydra is a completely different beast than a int 20, flying, buffed to hell and back hydra with a party. Hydras are weak because they have a few easily exploitable weaknesses. A wizard polymorphed into a hydra has none of those.

[Segev]

Is polymorphing the wizard into a hydra the most useful use of that spell? Or would another PC in the party be more useful as a hydra?

The fighter or monk...probably not. The extra attacks from the heads are less useful than their own foci, I suspect. The rogue, maybe, though. More attacks than the rogue normally gets. Does impact his ability to hide and move silently, though. I'm not sure it's a good idea for the wizard or cleric; can a hydra-form cast spells with somatic components?

Potentially very dangerous on the wizard's familiar.

[ryu]

Relevant druid animal companions at that level as hydras. Wizard familiar as a hilarious option. At that level fighters and monks look at that and get to say lolwat more attacks without iterative attack accuracy penalties.

[Lightlawbliss]

My personal favorite "fix" is making a substantial non-deteriorated part of the creature in question a material component or focus. The forms are still possible but a wizard alone is going to have a hard time getting all the forms he may want since it takes divine magic to make the material/focus available for very long.

[Jack_Simth]

My personal favorite "fix" is making a substantial non-deteriorated part of the creature in question a material component or focus. The forms are still possible but a wizard alone is going to have a hard time getting all the forms he may want since it takes divine magic to make the material/focus available for very long.
What are you talking about? Gentle Repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) is Sor/Wiz-3 (also Cleric-2).

[Rubik]

What are you talking about? Gentle Repose (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gentleRepose.htm) is Sor/Wiz-3 (also Cleric-2).So just kill one hydra, cast Gentle Repose, and cut it into 1" cubes to store in your Bag of Holding (transferring cubes into your component pouch as needed).

How many 1" cubes can you cut something the size of an elephant into, anyway?

[ryu]

That variable is obscured by the possibility of heads regenerating during the fight.

[Lightlawbliss]

So just kill one hydra, cast Gentle Repose, and cut it into 1" cubes to store in your Bag of Holding (transferring cubes into your component pouch as needed).

How many 1" cubes can you cut something the size of an elephant into, anyway?

When my groups use substantial, we are talking much bigger then 1" cubes. We talk closer to the whole head.

[LordBlades]

Is polymorphing the wizard into a hydra the most useful use of that spell? Or would another PC in the party be more useful as a hydra?

The fighter or monk...probably not. The extra attacks from the heads are less useful than their own foci, I suspect. The rogue, maybe, though. More attacks than the rogue normally gets. Does impact his ability to hide and move silently, though. I'm not sure it's a good idea for the wizard or cleric; can a hydra-form cast spells with somatic components?

Potentially very dangerous on the wizard's familiar.

Unless said wizard is a Gish no, not really. Fighters/barbarians also don't get that much utility out of it since you usually lower their str and kill their power attack returns.

From my experience, combat rogues (sneak attack gets multipiled by the number of attacks, which is a lot), martial adepts (hydras have attack: X bites, as such any maneuver that lets you make an attack lets you attack with all the heads) and to a lesser extent (DMM Persist) combat clerics (only when it's safe to ditch spell-casting for a while).

[Eldariel]

Unless said wizard is a Gish no, not really. Fighters/barbarians also don't get that much utility out of it since you usually lower their str and kill their power attack returns.

Having ~10 attacks to PA with makes the overall PA damage way higher though until level 16 at least, where they get natural 5 attacks (4 BAB + 1 Haste) to enable the additional PA returns to match the sheer numbers.

[LordBlades]

Having ~10 attacks to PA with makes the overall PA damage way higher though until level 16 at least, where they get natural 5 attacks (4 BAB + 1 Haste) to enable the additional PA returns to match the sheer numbers.

That depends on exact build and level. Just as a quick example: a 7-headed hydra gets 7 attacks with 1:1 PA return and a str.of 19. A 7th level whirling frenzy barbarian gets 3 attacks, with 2:1 PA return, probably has a Str higher than 19, and probably also has a Valorous weapon, further doubling his damage on a charge. Such a character is served way better by being polymorphed into something with big Str, preferably Large, that can still wield weapons, like a Bladerager, Cave or War Troll (depending on HD).

[strider24seven]

Such a character is served way better by being polymorphed into something with big Str, preferably Large, that can still wield weapons, like a Bladerager, Cave or War Troll (depending on HD).

This. Hydra is the go-to form for non-martial characters, who don't already have a good attack routine, especially when combined with Bite of the Were-X. War Troll is the go-to for people are already good with pointy sticks, mostly because of the stun.

[Eldariel]

That depends on exact build and level. Just as a quick example: a 7-headed hydra gets 7 attacks with 1:1 PA return and a str.of 19. A 7th level whirling frenzy barbarian gets 3 attacks, with 2:1 PA return, probably has a Str higher than 19, and probably also has a Valorous weapon, further doubling his damage on a charge. Such a character is served way better by being polymorphed into something with big Str, preferably Large, that can still wield weapons, like a Bladerager, Cave or War Troll (depending on HD).

Add 3 levels tho and the Whirling Frenzy damage doesn't really increase, but you get a 10-Headed Hydra instead.

[Deepbluediver]

Trying to get back on topic...

The biggest issue IMO is that it allows you to prepare or know the spell, then assume a form of your choice upon activation. What I mean is, Fireball is always Fireball and Grease is always Grease, but Polymorph is really only limited by the number of Monster Manuals the group has access to. It's effectively dozens or even hundreds of spells all at once.

Yes, the spell iconic and fun, but if you look at most of the stories that it (or something similar) shows up in you'll find that powerful magic users tend to be either VERY rare (Merlin was the only one of his kind and Gandalf was basically an angel in disguise [reverse Spoiler alert]) or very common (see Harry Potter, or pretty much any anime ever).
The point here is that people with these powers either only show up occasionally when they specifically need to be a game-changer/plot-point, or they only have to deal with people like themselves. What D&D does is ask Indiana Jones-es of the world to stand beside the Dr. Fate-s and pretend that everyone is equal.
There's a Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw) that kind of highlights this issue somewhat tongue-in-cheek; +1 cookie if you know what I'm talking about without clicking on the link.



If I where to attempt to fix Polymorph and other similar spells, I would probably do the following:

Alter Self- low level spell that mostly affects cosmetic changes; size category must remain the same. Mechanic benefits would likely be limited to minor improvements on skill checks or basic combat moves, like AC and attack rolls.

Shapechange- mid level spell that allows you to grow or change bodyparts to give you new abilities (wings for flight, gills for water breathing, weird limbs for reach, special qualities like Darkvision or Scent, improved combat manuevers, etc), but not everything all at once. Might include better improvements to AC, DR, attack rolls, damage, etc.

Polymorph- high level (8th or 9th) spell similar to the current version, but with more limitations on size and type. In addition, you would need to designate a specific creature when you learn or prepare the spell, which would then be the only form that version of the spell could select. You could learn or prepare other versions, but they would occupy more spell slots or spells known. Finally, if you changed to a form significantly different from your own, (humanoid to quadruped, for example) you wouldn't be able to cast other spells.
I haven't decided yet about Spell-Like or Supernatural abilities. A lot of creatures rely on them, and they can be very fun. With the other limitations, I might allow SLA and SU, but only a limited number of times per use of the spell.

[Optimator]

My group just uses a gentleman's agreement not to go bonkers, unless it's the specific goal of the build. Works pretty well, but we're all friends and roleplaying veterans.