Killing Epic monsters - at which level?

[Balor01]

At which level could a optimally built party start killing epic monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMonstersAndObstacles.htm)?

Max spell level is 5, but same applies for monsters. They get no spells, spell slots or SLAs above lvl 5.

Inb4 Pun Pun

Ok, only epic monsters in this case would be those withoud ability to leave Material Plane. (non-nerfed, thus with acess to all abilities)

Character level cap: 20.

[Nettlekid]

How would you handle Ex and Su abilities that have a power level well above what fits for spell level 5, but are not listed as such? I could see you disallowing a Phane's Stasis Touch for imitating Temporal Stasis, but what about Null Time Field and Time Regression? What about an Umbral Blot's Disintegrating Touch, or a Protean's Alter Shape?

[eggynack]

It might be nice if we just picked a particular monster. I mean, as is every build would have to be tested against every monster until we find one that the build can kill. What's the weakest epic monster, given these somewhat odd parameters?

Edit: Behemoth gorillas look really weak. They suffer from the whole range issue, so you could probably kill them just by flying at a certain distance, and shooting them to death. They don't even seem to have any kind of resilience factor, so you could just be a first level commoner with a flight item, and plink it with arrows until it dies to critical hits.

[Urpriest]

It might be nice if we just picked a particular monster. I mean, as is every build would have to be tested against every monster until we find one that the build can kill. What's the weakest epic monster, given these somewhat odd parameters?

That would almost certainly be Commoner 21. Probably a Muckdweller or non-web enhancement Kobold.

[Manly Man]

There's a feat or something that I can't remember, but the effect is that it makes it so that you don't have to accept any ones for a particular roll. The Crusader stance Aura of Chaos lets you continually reroll and stack on damage rolls that are maxed. Use a weapon that has a damage die of 1d2, and kill everything in one hit; stabbing someone with a chopstick might work.

Yes, Aura of Chaos is a level six stance, but you said the max spell level is five. :smallwink:

[eggynack]

That would almost certainly be Commoner 21. Probably a Muckdweller or non-web enhancement Kobold.
Eh, level 21 commoners get access to magic items and stuff. I forget what the exact amount is when you convert to enemies, but I think you'd be better off against something like the gorilla. There's actually a whole bunch of epic creatures without any kind of flight, ranged attack, or decent defense. I feel kinda bad for being so mean to the tarrasque all the time.

[Urpriest]

Eh, level 21 commoners get access to magic items and stuff. I forget what the exact amount is when you convert to enemies, but I think you'd be better off against something like the gorilla. There's actually a whole bunch of epic creatures without any kind of flight, ranged attack, or decent defense. I feel kinda bad for being so mean to the tarrasque all the time.

Can't we just give it bad magic items, though?

Basically, I think we need more parameters here.

[eggynack]

Can't we just give it bad magic items, though?

I guess, but then we end up going a level deeper with discussions of which magic items are the worst, and whether that end result is better or worse than other epic monsters. Ultimately, if you give the commoner any kind of flight, we lose the thing where he can be trivially killed by a first level character with flight and a bow. You could also give him a bow, which may make things even more problematic.



Basically, I think we need more parameters here.
Yeah. Definitely this.

[unseenmage]

Spamming the Binding (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Binding) spell could potentially stop any Epic critter cold in it's tracks.

Even more so if the character has Leadership or access to other mass NPC minions.

[CTrees]

As the previous target of "lowest level kill" challenges, may I suggest That Damn Crab? In this case, a Pseudonatural Monstrous Crab. You could certainly make a weaker target (pseudonatural goblin commoner child?), but the crab is a memetic source of frustration, and the template still adds some of the epic style elements (random dimension door, horrific alternate form, etc) while lacking any sort of flight, regeneration, ranged attack, etc. It is, I think, a more interesting challenge than that gorilla or a twenty-first level commoner with uncertain equipment.

[Chronos]

Not exactly a "monster", but a Flux Slime (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/obstacles.htm#fluxSlime) is CR 21, and can be killed by a first-level commoner with a torch.