What's the Relationship Between The IFCC and The Other Gods?

[realroadcrossin]

Hello everybody. I'm a huge fan of the comic, but not much of a DnD player ever, so I'm unfamiliar with some of the nuances in the cosmology. I get that there's a clear difference between pantheon gods, which created the universe in comic, and spirits like devils and angels, which seem more like they maintain it, but I'm not really sure where the dividing lines are. I should probably provide a ton of links in here, but I don't have the energy.

The first and most obvious aspect of this is knowledge about the gates and the snarl. We know the IFCC didn't know about them until Sabine let them know, and she found out from Nale, who found out from Shojo. Yet on the other hand, they seem to have a pretty specific idea of what they want to do with the gate, even seeming fairly non-plussed themselves that there was an alternate world instead of a world destroying monstrosity in the rift.

However, we know from Start of Darkness that the Dark One found out about the rifts from Rat and Tiamat. In turn, we know from after V killed the black dragons that the IFCC at least has a direct phone line to/from Tiamat, and presumably other Evil Gods. Is it possible that they know something from them, perhaps even Redcloak's plan itself? We know the IFCC's ultimate goal is the destruction of the planes of good, which more or less sounds like what Redcloak's plan will accomplish more than any kind of divine political bargaining.

Sidenote: Would we be able to know whether the Dark One or the IFCC is "older"? The IFCC all seem like high ranking demons (or devils, sorry if I'm missing a crucial DnD distinction here) so presumably they've been around a long time, but they're also clearly upstarts and relatively new players in the game. Ironically, even though they insist evil isn't "one big happy family", it seems like that's exactly what their own goal is. Who would Rat/Tiamat/other Evil Gods respect more - the Dark One or the IFCC? Would they disrespect both in their own way? The Dark One's obviously more a legit God, but I can imagine the information Rat/Tiamat gave him was a way of screwing around the newbie a bit.

The other major intersection I see here is with death and the afterlife. Both the IFCC and the various gods seem to have important functions dealing with the souls and sins of mankind. As I remember from Roy's little trip to heaven, the afterlife you go to is somewhat determined by what pantheon of gods you worship, but also overwhelmingly determined by moral alignment, good/evil, since you don't meet the Gods you worship when you die, but rather the angels and devils that handle paperwork and the like. But then in turn when Durkon/Malack were discussing theology, it seemed like Durkon was suggesting that his own gods, Thor/Hel, take a lot of responsibility at least for Dwarven deaths. I'm especially confused there, since it seems like most of our party worships Thor/the Northern Gods, yet the traditions and beliefs seem to wildly diverge between Durkon and everybody else in the party. Any clarification or good reading here would be appreciated.

There's a lot of other questions I have, but I've made enough of a rant already. Let me know any gaps you can fill in either with facts or interesting opinions - love to read both!

[Gift Jeraff]

It's complicated.

[SavageWombat]

In D&D, some demons and devils work for gods of evil, and some do not. The ones who don't have their own hierarchy and their own agendas. The IFCC would seem to fall into that category.

[Peelee]

Sidenote: The IFCC all seem like high ranking demons (or devils, sorry if I'm missing a crucial DnD distinction here) so presumably they've been around a long time, but they're also clearly upstarts and relatively new players in the game. Ironically, even though they insist evil isn't "one big happy family", it seems like that's exactly what their own goal is.

Don't think this really needs to be spoilered, but because you did...
Devils are Lawful, Demons are Chaotic, and Daemons are Neutral. Traditionally, Devils and Demons are locked in an eternal struggle called the Blood War, in which they basically try to wipe out the other side. Also, for each side (Lawful, Neutral, and Evil), the underlings want more power and will take opportunity to kill, backstab, betray, and whatever their way to the top, so long as they still act as they're supposed to (that is, Devils, being Lawful, keep their word, are huge sticklers for contracts, exploit technicalities, etc). So Evil us typically not one big happy family, since they all want to kill each other. The IFCC is an experiment to see if they can cooperate, and thus be more effective against the forces of Good, since they would be able to present a united front.

Everything else I'll let more competent people than myself to explain.

[realroadcrossin]

Don't think this really needs to be spoilered, but because you did...
Devils are Lawful, Demons are Chaotic, and Daemons are Neutral. Traditionally, Devils and Demons are locked in an eternal struggle called the Blood War, in which they basically try to wipe out the other side. Also, for each side (Lawful, Neutral, and Evil), the underlings want more power and will take opportunity to kill, backstab, betray, and whatever their way to the top, so long as they still act as they're supposed to (that is, Devils, being Lawful, keep their word, are huge sticklers for contracts, exploit technicalities, etc). So Evil us typically not one big happy family, since they all want to kill each other. The IFCC is an experiment to see if they can cooperate, and thus be more effective against the forces of Good, since they would be able to present a united front.

Everything else I'll let more competent people than myself to explain.

I spoilered it because I referencing the same bit from Start of Darkness and I'm just trying to be careful about what I reference from there even if some of it may or may not be common knowledge around these parts.

Okay, so I see, Lee is a Devil, Cedrick is a Demon, and Nero is a Daemon. Does that mean any physical/ability differences, or is everything pretty much alignment behavior based, or is that the point, since alignment especially seems to have a huge effects on what abilities a caster may or may not have?

That clarifies a lot though, because one of the main things I was wondering was if the IFCC were kind of their own made up thing or "ascended" versions of relatively regular DnD characters. Does this mean they'd only know stuff about the snarl that a god of the same alignment would know. Would they perhaps actually know more about the gates and the snarl than the gods, since they might have access to the souls of say, the Holey Brotherhood, whereas the gods in general seem to have a blackout on that info?

The afterlife bit seems especially important - they obviously have access to a lot of damned souls. How much would they cooperate with those souls? As far as I understand, the DnD underworld is a bit Dante's inferno with the ironic punishments and stuff, but it's also mainly a huge holy blood war between different factions. More concretely - let's say Belkar drops dead right now. Would he immediately be slaughtering even more people in life, or start getting slaughtered? Both?

Eh sorry if this is all overwhelming, but there's just so much nuance here I'm wondering about. There's definitely something that doesn't add up about the IFCC - they seem to both know too little and too much for them to do what they do. I know there's no source book stuff that would help here, but how old do you think the organization is? Do you think it started when Sabine contacted her superior and he got together a group to take advantage of the gates, or recently formed? We know Sabine was asked by one of them (not gonna look it up) to keep them apprised of anything that might shift the balance between good and evil, so it seems to me that while they're a recent creation their goals precede their knowledge of the gates. They also didn't know what would happen when blackwing dropped the phylactery in the rift, so they probably weren't aware of the world inside until V was.

Which leads me to the feeling that I mentioned in the first post that I think they have their fingers in every pie, and we know Redcloak got Demonic help in taking down the Azure City Resistance, though he didn't seem very happy about it. Is it just because he's a worshipper of the Dark One and his hired help was just non-aligned Evil creatures? Or is it just the simpler fact that their usual forces of undead/hobgoblins would be noticed far more by the Xykon as something out of the ordinary.

Anyways, feel free to correct any wrongheaded assumptions I've made, and I'm always glad to hear whatever anyone has to say (even and especially jokes).

[Shred-Bot]

It's complicated.

Friends with benefits, mostly. Contractually stipulated benefits in Director Lee's case.

[angry_bear]

As far as afterlife goes, the easiest explanation is that, in a standard Universe the followers of a deity go to it's realm upon death, and people who don't follow a deity go to a realm that matches their alignment and deeds in life. So Durkon would go to Asgard, Hilgya would go to Loki's realm (I forget if he's in Asgard, or has his own place) whereas a person without a deity, like Roy would go to the standard Lawful Good afterlife.

Of course that could change, like if Roy did something horrendously evil one time, and never made up for it; he could be sent to the underworld instead. (Pretty sure that he'd be sent to the Abyss seeing as it's his most directly opposed alignment) Or if he sells his soul to a fiend, he'd wind up in that fiends realm. Those include, The Nine Hells, The Abyss, or the Neutral Evil realm... I think it's Jersey, but could be mistaken on that. Which of those realms would of course depend on who he sold his soul to, a devil, demon, or daemon. Or if he were to sell his soul to the goddess Tiamat, he'd go to her realm.

I can't remember how the god realms correlate with the standard afterlife locations, but I think they're more or less suburbs directly connected to the primary alignments. So a lawful good deity like Thor (Apparently) would have access to the good aligned realms, whereas an, I think lawful evil goddess like Tiamat would have access to the evil realms through their respective dimensions.

[happycrow]

Fiends are several orders of magnitude less powerful than deities, however, and it's a standard ability for deities to snap their fingers and say "come here and do my bidding, punk."

So when the IFCC had to take the call from Tiamat, that could have been seriously bad for them had they not been able to pull off some really quick promises.

[Peelee]

I spoilered it because I referencing the same bit from Start of Darkness and I'm just trying to be careful about what I reference from there even if some of it may or may not be common knowledge around these parts.

Okay, so I see, Lee is a Devil, Cedrick is a Demon, and Nero is a Daemon. Does that mean any physical/ability differences, or is everything pretty much alignment behavior based, or is that the point, since alignment especially seems to have a huge effects on what abilities a caster may or may not have?

That clarifies a lot though, because one of the main things I was wondering was if the IFCC were kind of their own made up thing or "ascended" versions of relatively regular DnD characters. Does this mean they'd only know stuff about the snarl that a god of the same alignment would know. Would they perhaps actually know more about the gates and the snarl than the gods, since they might have access to the souls of say, the Holey Brotherhood, whereas the gods in general seem to have a blackout on that info?

The afterlife bit seems especially important - they obviously have access to a lot of damned souls. How much would they cooperate with those souls? As far as I understand, the DnD underworld is a bit Dante's inferno with the ironic punishments and stuff, but it's also mainly a huge holy blood war between different factions. More concretely - let's say Belkar drops dead right now. Would he immediately be slaughtering even more people in life, or start getting slaughtered? Both?

Eh sorry if this is all overwhelming, but there's just so much nuance here I'm wondering about. There's definitely something that doesn't add up about the IFCC - they seem to both know too little and too much for them to do what they do. I know there's no source book stuff that would help here, but how old do you think the organization is? Do you think it started when Sabine contacted her superior and he got together a group to take advantage of the gates, or recently formed? We know Sabine was asked by one of them (not gonna look it up) to keep them apprised of anything that might shift the balance between good and evil, so it seems to me that while they're a recent creation their goals precede their knowledge of the gates. They also didn't know what would happen when blackwing dropped the phylactery in the rift, so they probably weren't aware of the world inside until V was.

Which leads me to the feeling that I mentioned in the first post that I think they have their fingers in every pie, and we know Redcloak got Demonic help in taking down the Azure City Resistance, though he didn't seem very happy about it. Is it just because he's a worshipper of the Dark One and his hired help was just non-aligned Evil creatures? Or is it just the simpler fact that their usual forces of undead/hobgoblins would be noticed far more by the Xykon as something out of the ordinary.

Anyways, feel free to correct any wrongheaded assumptions I've made, and I'm always glad to hear whatever anyone has to say (even and especially jokes).

Gotcha. Sometimes people just put [SoD SPOILERS] in the title so they don't have to spoiler anything in the post, but it's not necessary, and I think I just willed myself into seeing it in your title. No worries.

The devil/daemon/demon thing is a little more than just alignment changes. There are different creatures for each. For instance, the biggest, baddest Devil in the Monster Manual is a Pit Fiend, while his Demon counterpart is a Balor. The Balor is built better for offensive combat - he has more health, better weapons, etc., while the Pit Fiend is better built for strategic combat - he has Regeneration, he can cast Wish (it is what it sounds like. Caveats apply) one per year, etc. They are both the same Challenge Rating, which is a estimate of difficulty for the adventuring party, they both give the same EXP if defeated, and they both fill the same roles in their respective armies and planes - generals of the armies, and bosses of the Nine Hells (for Devils) and Abyss (for Demons). Also, those are the biggest and baddest from the Monster Manual. They added at least four other MMs, and there are Fiendish Codex books which focus on each faction directly, where you could possibly find bigger and badder dudes. Haven't really checked, so I don't know. Also, if you really want to see all the differences between them, you could check out the SRD for Devils (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm) and Demons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm).

In regards to the Snarl, in theory, they'll only know as much as any mortal can know, since I don't think they're deities and they can only know what they see when they watch the mortal plane. Of course, I have no idea what they actually are, since they are so well hidden their cloaks. I suspect it will never be shown, because the imagination will always make them scarier than what they are if they're ever shown, and it matters less what kind of creature they are than it does what they represent - an alliance of evil overcoming their differences to the point of ending a war between themselves and allying to storm the heavens. Or whatever planes they wish, really. I have no idea, though. They may have special knowledge from the gods, they may have known about it all along, they may be in cahoots with the Snarl through a tin-can telephone that was made invisible and tossed through a rift before a Gate went up around it. This is kind of a wait-and-see scenario.

I think the organization may be somewhat old (in mortal terms), and they're just now starting to show themselves because they just had their first big shot at tipping the scales.

Also, technically, Redcloak's help was Devils, not Demons, since Redcloak is lawful evil and thus can only summon lawful evil fiends (also, I just remembered, you can use "fiends" interchangeably among them, since it's a more generic term). Also, that's less dealing with the IFCC (which to the best of my knowledge, Redcloak as no knowledge about) and more with that, as said, he can't summon Daemons or Demons, just Devils.

[Ohiohi]

As far as afterlife goes, the easiest explanation is that, in a standard Universe the followers of a deity go to it's realm upon death, and people who don't follow a deity go to a realm that matches their alignment and deeds in life.


The godless people, those who don't believe in the existence of a god, go into the Wall of the Faithless in Kelemvor's plane, the city of judgement.

Roy is in the LG afterlife because he believes even if he doesn't prey Third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)

[hamishspence]

This is OotS-verse though- there's no Kelemvor, and no City of Judgement.

[David Argall]

Fiends are several orders of magnitude less powerful than deities, however, and it's a standard ability for deities to snap their fingers and say "come here and do my bidding, punk."

So when the IFCC had to take the call from Tiamat, that could have been seriously bad for them had they not been able to pull off some really quick promises.
Our fiends seem to be archfiends and much stronger that those listed in the MM. Now 668 does tell us they need to lock heels when a god wants something, but they find it easy enough to survive a god slapping them around, even if they dare not fight back. Maybe a colonel or major talking to a general here.
They are also their own unit, not part of any chain of command. This gives them a good deal of freedom, but not any power [which again argues for considerable power of their own bodies.] I imagine them as spending much of their time waiting in reception room to make pitches to the top evils about the need to unite, and the top evils deem them naive pests who are mostly ignored.

[Kish]

The godless people, those who don't believe in the existence of a god, go into the Wall of the Faithless in Kelemvor's plane, the city of judgement.

Roy is in the LG afterlife because he believes even if he doesn't prey Third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)
This is not the Forgotten Realms.

Most D&D worlds are not the Forgotten Realms. One setting's particular afterlife rules mean nothing to other settings.

[hamishspence]

Our fiends seem to be archfiends and much stronger that those listed in the MM.

MM doesn't have any archfiends- only pit fiends and balors, which are a step or two down.

The archfiends in BoVD, might be a closer comparison (possibly making use of the optional Divine Ranks For Archfiends rules). With Tiamat from Deities & Demigods being the closest equivalent to OoTS Tiamat.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

D&D uses "the great wheel" (the wheel being the outer planes arranged in a circle) cosmology by default. The world as we know it is the "prime material plane" and where most adventures take place.

The prime material plane is surrounded by elemental planes of earth, air, fire, and water, along with a negative energy plane, and a positive energy plane.

The elemental planes are home to (gasp) elementals, living bits of earth, air, fire, and water. Also found there are some other native creatures, Effriti (big burning Djin) live in the elemental plane of fire for example. Redcloak is fond of summoning elementals not from the ancient list of four but from the modern periodic table so maybe these planes work differently in OotS, maybe not. No reason a titanium elemental couldn't come from the elemental plane of earth for example or a Chlorine elemental from the plane of air.

The negative energy plane is not a safe place to visit, and as far as I remember nothing lived there in early versions of D&D. It is basically entropy and decay, anything that goes there would die. It is notable in being the fuel that keep undead moving in some way.

The positive energy plane is likewise not a safe place to visit. It's the source of all life, growth, healing, and all that good stuff but too much of it at once will kill you.

Those are your "inner planes" and they are connected in complicated ways by an Astral plane and an Ethereal plane.

There are nine "outer planes" separate and apart from the inner planes. Each of the nine D&D alignments gets one and they are the homes of the gods and other native beasties of less power.

Demons (as mentioned above) come from the CE Abyss and are a different species from Devils who come from the LE Hells. The relationship between them and gods isn't as clear as it could be.

The greatest Devils, for example, are incredibly powerful compared to mortals, but not really in the same league as a god. Closer or further depending on what edition you're looking at, but not nearly as powerful.

But, the Arch-Devils literally rule hell, which one ruling each of the subsections. I would take this to mean that they rule over the lesser devils and damned souls generally, and evil gods leave them alone to do it.

Who knows what exactly is up with the IFCC, but possibilities include. 1) They're gods in disguise, or outsiders with a power level around that of gods. 2) They're traditional outsiders who are powerful compared to the likes of Roy, but not on a gods radar. 3) They're traditional Arch-Devils/Demons/Daemons somewhere in the middle power wise.

How they fit into a hierarchy is also anyone's guess. Maybe (1) they're independent operators acting without the knowledge of the Arch-Fiends or the evil Gods (2) they're direct agents of the arch-fiends and secret from the gods (3) they're agents of one or more gods and secret from the arch-fiends or (4) the whole evil power structure knows what they're up to.

The only evidence I can think of is that Tiamat (an evil god of Dragons) called up to chew them out. That means they're powerful enough to come to her attention, but doesn't mean they're working for her or she knows all of what they're up to.

[hamishspence]

This sums it up pretty well.

The term "archdevil" is sometimes informally used to refer to any unique devil more powerful than a pit fiend. Dukes, for example- the immediate subordinates of the Archdukes that rule each layer.

Same principle may apply to demons- not every unique demon lord, rules an entire layer- some are subordinates to a greater demon lord or demon prince.

I suspect the IFCC fall in the class of "unique- but not each ruling an entire layer of an Outer Plane" - that is, a duke of hell, a minor demon lord, and a unique daemon, would be about right.

[realroadcrossin]

Interesting. So the fiends of the IFCC are definitely higher rank than the Kwarr and probably a lot of the other fiends we've seen in the comic, but otherwise it's fairly ambiguous as to "what" exactly they are. Sorta like the monster in the darkness - wonder if that's a theory that's been proposed? (I know the answer is yes).

It seems especially interesting their relationship with Tiamat, which I guess is where I want to steer the discussion towards because I think that's where a lot of my cognitive disconnect is. This is because the Ancient Black Dragon that found V found V using the oracle, who gets his visions from Tiamat, which of course probably part of the reason Tiamat is so pissed at the IFCC - she has no idea what the hell they're up to.

Anyways, we know the IFCC don't have any sort of omniscience, but it seems like, like good businessmen, they do their research. They told Kwarr as much - they didn't know he was going to attack Xykon, but the psych profile they had of V told them it was pretty darn likely that he'd lash out at the most powerful opponent he could find, and there's no way they weren't assuming that would be Xykon.

So it seems to me that maybe the Draketooths were an intentional target of the IFCC. After all, it's actually not too too implausible - all the information they know about the gates presumably comes from Nale and Sabine, who were the only people before the time of the soul splice who really could be thinking about a Draketooth clan. The Order came to the western continent to reach the coordinates for the wrong gate, whereas the Linear Guild knew that Girard had a mysterious family out and about impregnating the western continent. And didn't V say that Haerta had the spell prepared "just for the occasion"?

It just all feels too pat, I guess, which can just be a story thing sometimes (after all there's only so many characters you can have), which is why I guess I'm wondering how the fiends would relate to say Tiamat. Is Tiamat someone unintentionally put in the crossfire of their plans who they genuinely want on their side? Or should I take their desire for destructive unnecessary conflict literally and that basically they're basically going for the evil version of 'world peace' whcih is yah - any theories or references to DnD sources are appreciated by my drunk ass.

[angry_bear]

The godless people, those who don't believe in the existence of a god, go into the Wall of the Faithless in Kelemvor's plane, the city of judgement.

Roy is in the LG afterlife because he believes even if he doesn't prey Third panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html)

That's a Forgotten Realms exclusive rule. Like I said earlier, most standard realms don't function that way.

Ravenloft for example, is almost completely shut off from other realms, and when you die in it, you're trapped in the mist rather than moving on to any afterlife. At least I'm pretty sure that's how it works, been a while since I've read up on the rules for that setting.

I'm pretty sure Dragonlance has it's own unique rules for the afterlife as well.

[F.Harr]

So Durkon would go to Asgard, Hilgya would go to Loki's realm (I forget if he's in Asgard, or has his own place) whereas a person without a deity, like Roy would go to the standard Lawful Good afterlife.

Someplace nice perhaps? A fully-stocked kitchen, maybe a pool. A nice fire in winter. Some cats for company


Of course that could change, like if Roy did something horrendously evil one time, and never made up for it; he could be sent to the underworld instead. (Pretty sure that he'd be sent to the Abyss seeing as it's his most directly opposed alignment) Or if he sells his soul to a fiend, he'd wind up in that fiends realm. Those include, The Nine Hells, The Abyss, or the Neutral Evil realm... I think it's Jersey, but could be mistaken on that.

New or old? One has cows named after it. The other has more cows in it.

[SavageWombat]

That's Robot Hell. It's in New Jersey, not all of it.

Rumor has it that some parts of the state are actually livable.

[Sir_Leorik]

Interesting. So the fiends of the IFCC are definitely higher rank than the Kwarr and probably a lot of the other fiends we've seen in the comic, but otherwise it's fairly ambiguous as to "what" exactly they are. Sorta like the monster in the darkness - wonder if that's a theory that's been proposed? (I know the answer is yes).

Try thinking of the fiendish hierarchy as follows: each race of fiends is one or more multinational corporation. There is a single Infernal Company, of which Asmodeus is the CEO, a single Daemonic Company, of which the Oinoloth and the General of Gehenna are on the board of directors, and there are multiple Demonic Companies, which compete with each other, as well as with the single Infernal Company, with a Demon Prince serving as the CEO of his Demonic Company. (So Orcus is the CEO of Thanatos, Inc., with Doresain serving on his board of directors, Graz'zt is the CEO of Azzagrat, Inc., and Demogorgon is the CEO of Abysm, Inc.)

Below the Demon Princes, Arch Devils and Daemon Generals, are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultroloths. They are the senior executives of these corporations, with many holding stock options. The lowest ranking Arch Devil, Bel, was promoted from the ranks of the Pit Fiends in a corporate reshuffling, decades ago.

Below the senior executives are the managers: Mariliths, Glabrezu, Ice Devils, Horned Devils, Arcanoloths, and Yagnoloths, who supervise the office staff: Hezrou, Vrocks, Succubi, Barbed Devils, Kytons, Piscoloths, and Mezzoloths. All the way at the bottom are the mailroom employees, the janitorial staff and the summer interns. Qarr is someone hired to sort the mail or mop the floor. Sabine is a highly skilled secretary, who is entrusted by her employer with sensitive documents because she is trustworthy.

The IFCC are essentially trying to arrange a merger between all of these companies. They rank above the senior executives, with each of them having a position on the board of directors of their respective companies. However the companies are not convinced that the merger proposal is a good idea; while none of the companies have succeeded in eliminating the others, their market share has been profitable.

Tiamat has nothing to do with any of these companies. She is a high ranking government official, equivalent to a governor, a senator or a cabinet level member of Parliament (she heads one or more ministries). She called the IFCC after learning that a lot of her constituents (Black Dragons) were murdered by someone the IFCC was doing business with, and threatened to shut them down, forcefully. (By eating them.) Director Lee managed to mollify Tiamat, so that the IFCC could continue without being killed by Tiamat (and her allies, like Rat and Loki).

To move this out of the realm of metaphor, the IFCC are high ranking members of Fiendish society. Director Lee probably serves in the court of Asmodeus or one of the Dukes of Hell, Director Nero serves on the staff of the Oinoloth or the General of Gehenna, and Director Cedrik is a vassal of one of the Demon Princes (IMO Graz'zt is the likeliest candidate). The three of them want to unite their peoples, but are facing resistance from Asmodeus, the General and the Oinoloth, and two dozen different Demon Princes, who can barely stand the idea of being in the same room without wanting to kill each other, let alone talk to a Devil. Sabine is a trusted minion, but she's not very high ranking. Qarr might as well be a janitor.

Tiamat is not part of this hierarchy. She's a goddess. She helped create the world -- twice, if we are to believe the Crayons of Time -- and she is not going to let a trio of Fiends with delusions of grandeur give some Elf the power to wipe out Dragonkind. So she called Lee, and he was forced to kowtow before her on the phone.

[Baron Pineapple]

The godless people, those who don't believe in the existence of a god, go into the Wall of the Faithless in Kelemvor's plane, the city of judgement.

That's ONLY in the portion of the Forgotten Realms known as Faerun, the rest of Toril and the rest of the D&D cosmos does NOT follow that rule. Every other 'world' follows the planar and afterlife patterns set down in the Planar Handbook and the other deity manuals. Faerun (because of Greenwood) had to be the special snowflake and decide to break away from the established patterns and create its own.

I hate how the Realms fanboys think the wonky rules of Faerun apply everywhere. :smallfurious:

[Sir_Leorik]

That's ONLY in the portion of the Forgotten Realms known as Faerun, the rest of Toril and the rest of the D&D cosmos does NOT follow that rule. Every other 'world' follows the planar and afterlife patterns set down in the Planar Handbook and the other deity manuals. Faerun (because of Greenwood) had to be the special snowflake and decide to break away from the established patterns and create its own.

I hate how the Realms fanboys think the wonky rules of Faerun apply everywhere. :smallfurious:

Greenwood was writing fiction set in the "Forgotten Realms" about Elminster, the Seven and Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunson, years before he began playing AD&D. And Greenwood contributed more than his fair share to the way the Nine Hells look like with his articles in "Dragon Magazine" elaborating on the sparse details in the AD&D PHB and Monster Manual. You're right that Kelemvor has no control over other campaign settings, but why are you so incensed that Kelemvor can do so in the Forgotten Realms cosmology? :smallconfused:

Toril isn't the only published campaign setting with it's own cosmology: Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Eberron and The Known World/Mystara, all differ from the Great Wheel introduced in the AD&D PHB. In AD&D 2E efforts were made to shoehorn Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, Dark Sun, Mystara, and less well known settings, into the Great Wheel, especially in the Planescape line (though it actually began earlier, in 1989, with the release of "Spelljammer"). This creates all sorts of problems. For example, Tiamat and Takhisis are not the same entity, nor are Bahamut and Paladine. Takhisis and Paladine are much more powerful, and Tiamat and Takhisis' Alignments are different. On the other hand, the Lolth in Greyhawk and the Lolth in Forgotten Realms are the same goddess, since Lolth has a Tardis enabling her to open portals from the Demonweb Pits to multiple Material Worlds. (See "Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits" or "Expedition to the Demonweb Pits".)

Ideally, TSR would have left cross-over campaigns optional, and while they technically were, "Spelljammer", "Ravenloft" and "Planescape" canon are that all of the published campaign worlds are connected by the Astral, the Ethereal and the Phlogiston. :smallsigh: Luckily WotC didn't make the same mistake.