Operation:CHA

[Rama_Lei]

Welcome to Operation: Change Horrible Application or CHA. Let's be honest. Charisma is the red-headed stepchild of the stats. all the other stats have classes dedicated to them, and have practical skill applications. Charisma? not so much. We have the sorcerer who is arguably weaker than the INT based Wizaed, and The Bard, who is massively underpowered (assuming you don't break the game with diplomacy, but lets talk about nice players). Charisma is used as a third "nice" attribute for some classes, but really has no effect. STR adds to your attack rolls, DEx ups your Ac and your reflex, CON is fortitude saves and HP, WIS ups Will, and Int gives skill points. Charisma? Not much. so what can we do? this thread is for discussion and hopefully improvement of the CHA stat. What we need: 1. What bonuses CHA can provide 2. More skills that are CHA based.

[MandibleBones]

We have the sorcerer who is arguably weaker than the INT based Wizaed

The Sorc IS weaker than the Wizard, for reasons which have everything to do with versitility and nothing to do with Charisma.


and The Bard, who is massively underpowered (assuming you don't break the game with diplomacy, but lets talk about nice players).

You can't seriously say a class is underpowered based on the fact that players might choose to not use the most useful feature of the class. Bard is an underpowered spellcasting class, but it's good at what it does: interaction with other characters. That this is less important in the standard combat-intensive campaign is what leads to the impression of this being underpowered.

Which is really the crux of the issue: Charisma is only truly useful in situations that don't come up that often in game (though they come up often in real life).

I argue if you're using CHA so rarely that you feel the need to "fix" it for being underpowered, you may not be playing the game to the fullest extent.

[Macrovore]

why not make it related to action points (assuming you use them). instead of them being 5+1/2lvl, make it CHA mod+1/2lvl

[Shazzbaa]

We had this discussion a while back and I don't remember what thread it was in... (Golthur? Do you remember?)

Anyway, the best suggestion I saw was the idea of a 'reaction' stat, directily tied to CHA, that would give NPCs an initial impression of the character. An NPC barkeep might be chatty and share information with a character with a high "reaction" stat, simply serve a character with a decent reaction, completely ignore a character with lower reaction, and be downright hostile to a character with abysmal reaction. NPC law enforcement might be willing to let it slide "just this once" if a character with high reaction gets in trouble, whereas a character with low reaction would never catch a break. Prices would be higher for characters with low reaction, people would in general be less open, advice from low reaction characters would frequently be ignored.

I don't think we need more CHA-based skills -- the whole problem with CHA is that, currently, you're better off with a higher INT, so that you can put more ranks into CHA skills. There's nothing that DIRECTLY ties into CHA, so there's no reason (mechanically) to care about it.

Another suggestion I recall was one involving "luck points" that you'd get for a high charisma -- but I don't remember if that was ever fleshed out, or what you did with said luck points.

Lemme see if I can find that thread.

[The White Knight]

Paladin 4/Monk1 (or 2 for the ever so useful evasion)/Sorc1/X has CHA to saves (divine grace), misc AC (with ascetic mage), attack (smiting and divine might), shield AC (if using a shield, with divine shield), and healing (via lay on hands) if Paladin level is high enough (conversely, one could progress spellcasting levels instead, which would obviously benefit in the form of bonus spells and higher DCs). Add to this the fact the Paladin's class skill list includes Diplomacy and the Sorceror's Bluff, and you've got a fast talking, butt-kicking, hard-to-kill beast.

That seems reasonably hefty to me, and I'm not even trying hard. Opening the doors to Gestalt makes it even more plausible. Since 3.5, I've found Charisma to be pretty reasonable; I wouldn't call it the red-headed stepchild at all anymore. It's admittedly not useful (mechanically) to, say, a straight-up Fighter... but I'd still say I find myself dumping Wisdom for non-divine characters more often than Charisma.

[Mewtarthio]

I recall it coming up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26912). You may be thinking of a different topic, though: I just searched the forums for a particular phrase I knew I'd used.

White Knight: The trouble is that most every class can dump Cha. It's only valuable to classes that use it for class features.

[MandibleBones]

The trouble is that most every class can dump Cha. It's only valuable to classes that use it for class features.

Why is this a problem? I mean, every class is going to have at least one dump stat. Why do people care that it's often Charisma? If you're playing a class that isn't using it for class features, it's likely not important to your character concept or the mechanical execution of that concept.

If it IS important to that concept, then it's not a dump stat, now is it?

[Shazzbaa]

Mewtarthio: Awesome, that's exactly the one! Interestingly enough, it was your comment I was looking for:


Why not just provide a bonus to people with high Charisma in that people react to them better? I mean in situations besides Diplomacy: For instance, if you walk into a bar, the bartender might frown at the 6-CHA barbarian and talk happily with the 18-CHA bard. I know, that seems kinda pointless and mostly flavorful, but that's just a basic example: People should start off initially liking someone better if they have high Charisma. This would be especially important under the Rich Burlew diplomacy variant, in which Diplomacy doesn't really improve attitude, requiring you to basically RP a long-term relationship with someone: Charisma wouldn't be sufficient to bump you an entire relationship level (the improved attitude is represented by the inherent bonus the skill check gets from Charisma), but it would make moving up in category easier.

Some examples, featuring Thog the Barbarian and Elan the Bard:

The PC is looking for directions when he spots a farmer working in the fields

:thog: Excuse me--
:furious: What in tarnation do you kids think yer doin'! Git offa my property!

:elan: Excuse me--
:annoyed: Who--? Ah didn't see ya there. Don't sneak up like that! Who are ye, wha'd'ya want?

The PC is attempting to enter a store mere seconds after the owner has begun closing up shop

:thog: Could you stay open a little longer? I'll only be a second.
:annoyed: I'm sorry, sir, but the store's closed.

:elan: Could you stay open a little longer? I'll only be a second.
:wink: Well, I suppose there's no harm in making another sale for the day, is there?

The PC has been caught for some minor crime; it depends on the setting, but it would be the modern equivalent of a speeding ticket.

:thog: Sorry about that. It won't happen again.
:miko: Regardless, I'm writing you up. Report to the local law enforcement office to pay your fine.

:elan: Sorry about that. It won't happen again.
:miko: *sigh* Well, I guess I'll let it slide this once. But you only get one warning.

The PC is helpless before the mighty Lich King

:thog: I surrender! Please don't kill me! If you spare me, I'll repay you greatly!
:xykon: *kills* MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

:elan: I surrender! Please don't kill me! If you spare me, I'll repay you greatly!
:xykon: What could you possibly give me that I can't get for myself, mortal?

Also, Yossarian makes some good points that finally clicked for me why Charisma being a dump stat upsets everyone so. We get around to talking about it around the 3rd and 4th page, I believe, if you want to go read it.

Essentially the problem with CHA is simply that every other stat has a reason for a character to not want to dump it (those all listed in the OP -- encumbrance, AC, HP, skill points, will save) while CHA has none. Even if you want to play a diplomatic character, you don't have to pump CHA, 'cause you'd be better off, mechanically, getting more skill points to put into the relevant skills. If you're not a fighter, STR still does you good. If you're not a wizard, you still want decent INT. If you're not a sorcerer, .... CHA does nothing for you.

That's why people complain about CHA -- because unlike every other stat, the DM has to specifically integrate it into the game for it to be important to every class.

[Golthur]

We had this discussion a while back and I don't remember what thread it was in... (Golthur? Do you remember?)

Anyway, the best suggestion I saw was the idea of a 'reaction' stat, directily tied to CHA, that would give NPCs an initial impression of the character. An NPC barkeep might be chatty and share information with a character with a high "reaction" stat, simply serve a character with a decent reaction, completely ignore a character with lower reaction, and be downright hostile to a character with abysmal reaction. NPC law enforcement might be willing to let it slide "just this once" if a character with high reaction gets in trouble, whereas a character with low reaction would never catch a break. Prices would be higher for characters with low reaction, people would in general be less open, advice from low reaction characters would frequently be ignored.

I don't think we need more CHA-based skills -- the whole problem with CHA is that, currently, you're better off with a higher INT, so that you can put more ranks into CHA skills. There's nothing that DIRECTLY ties into CHA, so there's no reason (mechanically) to care about it.

Another suggestion I recall was one involving "luck points" that you'd get for a high charisma -- but I don't remember if that was ever fleshed out, or what you did with said luck points.

Lemme see if I can find that thread.

It was this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26912&highlight=Reaction+chart).

EDIT: Beaten by Mewthario! Curse you!!!!! :tongue:

But, you're accurate on the best ideas from the thread. Action/luck points, reaction chart, that was the gold, I think.

I'm in the process of fleshing out the action/luck point thing, combining it with the "passions" system proposed a while back, but it's not done yet :wink:.

[Hario]

What cheezes me off about charisma based stats is that Int is better than Charisma the only time you need a decent Cha is opposed Cha rolls without skill checks but those are very rare. In my Eberron Campaign I have an artificer with a 17 Charisma and Diplomacy isn't a class skill, I also have a glamerweave cloak and a Circlet of Persuasion, I think I'm trying to get my diplomacy high, but guess what!? the Monk with 8 charisma has a higher Diplomacy rank than I do, simply because its a class skill. This seriously cheeses me off, an 8 Charisma. What I would like to see is have Opposed Charisma checks for every NPC encounter you go upon, that way it balances out a bit. Its much like what Mew pointed out, and seriously helps. Or we could always add a 4th save in 4.0 based on Charisma and call it a day, I'd call it a luck save ;P though it'd be hard thinking of where it'd apply except in gambling or something.

[Golthur]

Or we could always add a 4th save in 4.0 based on Charisma and call it a day, I'd call it a luck save ;P though it'd be hard thinking of where it'd apply except in gambling or something.
I've thought about this idea, particularly when Charisma is more and more being interpreted as "force of personality" rather than anything to do with appearance or social graces. This does overlap with Will saves, though.

In essence, what I've been rolling around in my melon has been:
Use a Charisma-based save (of some kind) when a magical effect is an immediate, quick attempt to overwhelm your force of personality - like a charm or a dominate.
Use a Wisdom-based save when a magical effect can be overcome through persistence (such as the subsequent saves of a charm) or through accurate perception (such as illusions).
I haven't developed it much beyond that, though. Too many ideas, not enough time to work them all out. :smile:

[JaronK]

Well, casters are often considered overpowered anyway, so here's a trick to pull:

For all casters, save DCs of their spells are based on Charisma. Maximum level of spells castable is based on Intelligence. Bonus spells are based on Wisdom.

Suddely, Charisma is an important stat for everyone who slings spells, and the power level of casters is brought down to a level closer to the melee classes. Goody. Problem solved.

JaronK

[Viscount Einstrauss]

Leadership.

Leadership.

Those that don't see why charisma can be an excellent tool fail to realize how awesome cohorts and followers really are. Seriously.

I get high charisma and the Leadership feat in every game that the DM doesn't disallow Leadership. In any long-lasting campaign, I end up with my own procession of underlings that pamper my character. I'm always well-fed with my favorite foods, sleep on feathered pillows even when there's no beds anywhere, have all my gear in excellent shape thanks to constant repairs, and any villain that might want to sneak up on me while I make camp has to get through my "people" first.

And while a sorcerer might be technically less sound than a wizard, I say he makes up for it with an army of cohorts.

And now for an awesome story-

I played an evil sorcerer that used this setup. As a trap. I'd lure a full group of unsuspecting followers far out where no one can hear them, then mass murder them. Then I use their bodies to create undead hordes, flesh golems, and the like, then hide them underground. The DM didn't play the game all the way through this scenario, but in his narrative of the events at the end of the story, he at least said I accomplished my goal- that of taking over the world with legions of the undead, which sprouted up all around the world at once by taking over every major city and town in a manner of hours. I tell you- best abuse of necromancy and leadership ever.

[Fizban]

What ticks me off about charisma is that it's the dump stat, when heroes should never really have a dump stat. Now, there are plenty of characters in books and all that that have had major issues, but most of those would have been more appropriate as RP as I see it. I'd rather dump a physical stat like strength, so my character can at least think and act like a hero.

Also, the way I define charisma is along the lines of strength of personality/ unseen power/ force of will/ heroism. The dashing hero that adventures because it's fun has high Cha. The gruff and ugly guard adventures only because he has to for reason X has low Cha.

What this translates to is: I like the idea of basing action points based off cha. If we want people to actually consider not dumping charisma, it has to be very important to whatever we add it to, so I say Action Points at each level are Cha mod+1/2 level. People who want to be heroic can still take the Heroic Spirit feat (ECS), and the heroic bards/paladins/sorcerers can achieve truly heroic action point totals (high Cha+Heroic Spirit+Extreme Explorer+Heir of Syberis+Heroic Surge for extra actions, even better if you use the action point uses from Unearthed Arcana).

[Maglor_Grubb]

I see, next to the more traditional things charisma stands for, charisma especialy as how aware you are of the difference between yourself and your surroundings. High charisma is not so bound by the norm, whereas low charisma lives a 'railroaded' live, doing things because their surrounding expects it from them. That is one of the reasons I'd just base will saves of charisma. It's a frickin will save - not based of how you are in tune with your surroundings or your common sense, but your force of personality, the ability to resist outside influences on your behaviour. Then use wisdom as the stat for initiative - here the awareness of your surrounding does come in play a lot more than your natural nimbleness and dexterity gets to much love anyway. Yes, heavy armored fighters won't make dex a very high stat, but it still stays a good stat and then there is finaly a character that does not, realy, need dexterity.

[Matthew]

I like to think of Charisma as also Self Confidence. With that in mind I make it clear that Players who dump this Attribute will be expected to play their Characters accordingly. As for tying it into the game, the Reaction idea sounds like the most likely use (Hell, wasn't that normal in previous editions? I didn't realise it had been dumped)

[Golthur]

I like to think of Charisma as also Self Confidence. With that in mind I make it clear that Players who dump this Attribute will be expected to play their Characters accordingly. As for tying it into the game, the Reaction idea sounds like the most likely use (Hell, wasn't that normal in previous editions? I didn't realise it had been dumped)
Yep, and Mr. Nexx's first reaction chart in the thread mentioned above was a tongue-in-cheek homage to the original 1.x and 2.x reaction charts.

The funny thing is, I never used them when I ran because they were too much hassle.

[PMDM]

The problem people have with charisma is that it dosn't seem to have much of a place in the standard dungeon raiding adventure. THere are many ways around it, however.

1) Social monsters. Convincing a dragon to help you, instead of killing you is better than just killing a dragon. SInce it's a dragon, it would be hard to do, though.

2) Lackeys. If you have adventuring NPCs, make them conflict with the PCs unless someone with enough charisma can convince the NPCs to see it their way.

3) More Civilized encounters. If you run any kind of city game, charisma can become the most important stat to have for any player.

4) Less charismic encounters. If every fighter in your world is ugly, than charismic players will have an easier time of it.

[Shazzbaa]

Truthfully, at present there are definitely ways to INCORPORATE charisma into your game as it exists (there are people, for example, who have low CHA characters charged more for items while high CHA characters get discounts; there are also DMs who will make sure that everyone, at some point, has their social mettle tested), but there isn't any actual mechanic that makes CHA worthwhile*. Most of the people who complain about CHA want a way to fix it mechanically -- it's easy to say that a character with low charisma should play the part, but it's a lot harder to tell a player, "You can't say that, you're not charismatic!" Or to tell other PCs "You shouldn't listen to him! He's not charismatic!"

Truthfully, IRL a charismatic person can tell you you're ugly to your face in the bluntest of terms and get away with it, whereas an uncharismatic person may bungle even the most carefully-worded compliment. It's not necessarily all about how you play it, it's about how much good it does you.

*EDIT: Just want to change that wording, kind of. CHA can be "worthwhile," as many people have mentioned the leadership feat and other such things. I guess I'm trying to say that CHA can have uses, but that's only if you use it. If you ignore it, you don't hurt for it. I'm not necessarily in favour of punishing a character for having a low CHA score, but I do think nobody should be able to ignore it anymore than they could ignore STR,DEX,CON,INT or WIS.

As per Maglor Grubb's suggestions...
So, by your thinking, DEX is just AC and reflex, WIS becomes initiative, and CHA becomes will? Huh. That's interesting. Maybe could work but it strikes me as... out there. Unfortunately, I think the problem here is WIS and its completely unrelated domains. The reason WIS gets willsave is because it's associated not only with perception, but with Willpower... Thus why it's the top stat for clerics, because a strength of faith and will is paramount for them.

While WIS for initiative makes a lot of sense to me (I'm quick if I know what I'm doing, but I tend to not react quickly because I'm hideously unobservant), I don't particularly like the idea of a character who, simply by being wise and having the "common sense and willpower" side of Wisdom, suddenly has a fabulous initiative.
But then I also don't like a character who, by being wise and having common sense, suddenly is really observant and has surviving skills. So that might just be my problem with the system. ^^;

The second thing I wonder -- is initiative really (in anything other than those contrived "fighter vs. wizard" scenarios) important enough to keep WIS from being a dump stat in that scenario? Seriously, I'm asking, I honestly don't know.

Despite my reservations, however, I will say that I think you could get away with making these changes without stretching anything too much, provided they end up working mechanically. The only problems you'd really have are people's preconceived notions regarding how things are "supposed" to work.

[Vance_Nevada]

The second thing I wonder -- is initiative really (in anything other than those contrived "fighter vs. wizard" scenarios) important enough to keep WIS from being a dump stat in that scenario? Seriously, I'm asking, I honestly don't know.

Well, Initiative is used every day of the adventurer's life. There are constantly checks for it. Sure, your head won't fall off if you have negative Init, but it will be a check that's constantly being penalised. The current trouble with CHA is that it only matters for checks that are irrelevant to your character (if your Fighter has 8 Cha, he's not going to be the party spokesman anyway, so what does it matter if he has a -1 Diplomacy mod?) Heck, even the party face will only use Charisma in applicable situations, while Initiative is used practically every session. Wisdom also counts towards Spot and Listen, two more skills constantly used.

Having negative Wis wouldn't break a character or anything, but it'd make you think twice about dumping it.

[ghost_warlock]

I really like the idea of Action Points being based off of Charisma. :smallsmile:

I used to play Alternity a lot and, in that system, there were Last Resorts, which were a lot like Action Points but you got less of them. The number of Last Resorts a character had was directly related to the Cha-stat, called "Personality." If you had a PER of, I think, 8 or less you didn't get any Last Resorts. Because Last Resorts were so dad-gum useful, everyone tried to keep their PER at least at a 9-10 (stat range 4 - 14). Also, the number of Last Resorts you had didn't scale with your level - you kept the same amount, based directly off of PER, unless you raised your limit with XP (which you could only do twice, and not until about 6th level). When you spent a Last Resort, it didn't automatically come back when you leveled, you had to buy it back with XP.

Incorporating a system like this for D&D, based off of Cha, would be a great idea for keeping Cha useful.

[Mewtarthio]

I've thought about this idea, particularly when Charisma is more and more being interpreted as "force of personality" rather than anything to do with appearance or social graces. This does overlap with Will saves, though.

In essence, what I've been rolling around in my melon has been:

Use a Charisma-based save (of some kind) when a magical effect is an immediate, quick attempt to overwhelm your force of personality - like a charm or a dominate.
Use a Wisdom-based save when a magical effect can be overcome through persistence (such as the subsequent saves of a charm) or through accurate perception (such as illusions).I haven't developed it much beyond that, though. Too many ideas, not enough time to work them all out. :smile:

I like that idea, too. In fact, I think I suggested it in another topic. Anyway, I disagree that Will saves are Wisdom-based because Wisdom represents willpower. I think it's the other way around. Think about it: If somebody's blasting your mind with a spell that causes you to obey their every command, are you really going to be able to shake that off by being really perceptive? Also, Charisma has appeared as force of spirit many times. Anything that naturally casts spells or SLAs will usually have Charisma determining the strength of that magic. When a Ghost makes a Rejuvination check to pull its spirit away from the afterlife to haunt the world in undeath, does it make a Will save? No, it makes a Charisma check. When you have someone Charmed and ask them to do something that they wouldn't normally do, yes, your Charisma's involved, but it's an opposed Charisma check. You don't roll your Charisma versus their Wisdom: The victim's Charisma determines how well they can think for themselves and resist your commands.

[Matthew]

You could always make it Charisma or Wisdom, perhaps through a Feat or something if necessary. I'm a big fan of using Attribute A or Attribute B, whichever is most appropriate to the circumstance...

[Shazzbaa]

I finally went and read about Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm), as I apparently failed the Knowledge (Obvious) check to realise that this was an existing variant until just now. ^^;

'Twould be interesting to base them on CHA. They seem to read almost as that movie-hero's ability to somehow struggle back from being dead at the last minute, or somehow muster the strength he didn't have before at just the right time... which matches the idea some people have of CHA being somewhat related to extra-heroicness.

I like the name "last resorts" for something like that, too.

[Yakk]

Or just replace D&D stats with something similar, but without the same dump stats.

Here, a half-baked implementation:
Stats vary from -1 to +2.
Fitness (Melee to-hit, Reflex save, Melee damage, Skill points, Personality)
Agility (Reflex save, Initiative, Ranged damage, Ranged accuracy, Dex-bonus-to-AC)
Body (Initiative, Melee damage, HP, Fort save, Calmness)
Cleverness (Ranged Damage, Skill Points, Calmness, Will saves, Wit)
Empathy (Dex-bonus-to-AC, Attractiveness, Fort save, Wit, Soul)
Spirit (Ranged Accuracy, Melee Accuracy, HP, will save, Soul)

Character generation:
Rolled randomly: 2d4, lower roll first:
11: -1
12,13,14,22: +0
23, 24, 33: +1
34, 44: +2

Point-buy costs: 9 points per character
-1: 1 extra point
0: 0 points
+1: 2 point cost
+2: 5 point cost

Rolling randomly on the above chart generates, on average, a 9 point character on the bottom chart.

Combinations for a 9 point buy:
-1 in one stat, +1 in all other stats.
+2 in one stat, +1 in two other stats.
+2 in one stat, +1 in three stats, -1 in two stats.
+2 in two stats, -1 in one other stat.
+2 in two stats, +1 in one stat, -1 in two stats.

Each stat varies from -1 to +2 for a "normal human". Most adult humans go from -1 to +1.

Stats are only rarely used "in the raw".

Agi+Fit: Reflex (Save)
Agi+Bod: Initiative
Agi+Cle: Targetting (Ranged Damage)
Agi+Spi: Precision (Ranged Accuracy)
Agi+Emp: Luck (Dex-bonus-to-AC)

Fit+Bod: Brute Strength (Melee damage)
Fit+Cle: Resourcefulness (Skill points per level)
Fit+Spi: Grace (Melee Accuracy)
Fit+Emp: Personality

Bod+Cle: Calmness
Bod+Spi: Persistance (HP)
Bod+Emp: Toughness (Fort save)

Cle+Spi: Willpower (Will save)
Cle+Emp: Wit

Spi+Emp: Soul

Willpower (will save), Wit, Calmness, Soul and Personality.

These are used as casting stats in place of int/wis/cha.

Int bonus spells: Calmness (Cle+Bod)
Int spell strength: Wit (Cle+Emp)
Wis bonus spells: Willpower (Spi+Cle)
Wis spell strength: Soul (Spi+Emp)
Wis turn undead/paladin specials: Personality (Fit+Emp)
Cha bonus spells: Soul (Spi+Emp)
Cha spell strength: Personality (Fit+Emp)

To work out bonus spells, use the standard chart.
Take 10 * twice the listed modifier above.

Max spell levels are:
Cle*3 for int casters
Emp*3 for wis casters
Spi*3 for cha casters

Racial stat mods:
Halfing: -1 Fitness, +1 Agility
Elf: -1 Body, +1 Agility
Gnome: -1 Fitness, +1 Body
Dwarf: -1 Empathy, +1 Body
Half Orc: -1 Empathy, -1 Cleverness, +1 Fitness

Stat modifiers change the min/max you can reach in a stat.

Magic items and buffs:
Each stat influences about twice as many things under this system. That makes each +1 worth twice as much.

Magic items, buffs, and other stat modifications have to be rescaled with this in mind. :)

[smellie_hippie]

I use CHA as one of the prime "roleplaying" stats. It's been pointed out that the other stats have more "mechanical meat" for bonuses etc... I use CHA to determine if the character is going to be gruff, ugly, sociable, dejected, etc. It builds up the personality behind the other stats.

You play a half-orc with high STR and CON, and throw in high CHA and even with his orc heritage, he still has winning personality that people are willing to follow.

Low CHA could be a face disfiguration from a house fire that guides a Ranger to select his favored enemy.

Maybe a wizard with low CHA has no confidence in his spell-casting even with high intelligence and spellcraft skill. Maybe a high CHA wizard could be very overconfident, building a reputation that far outweighs his skill.

[Shazzbaa]

Yakk, did... did you just make an entirely different system? Just to fix CHA? :smalleek:

[amanodel]

If you want to use charisma for something other than conversation, someone already mentioned making them to have a save on their own. Some spells already have opposed cha checks, and there are several abilites which only give you will save bonus versus enchantments.

There are two kind of bodily saving throws: avoiding it (ref save), and withstanding it (fort save). It can be used for mental saves as well, withstanding with Will save, and avoiding with cha save, or the like. It could be easily ruled that all spells from the enchantment and illusion schools have a charisma-based save.


Or make cha bonus into action points...

However, a combat-muchkin always dumps Cha, and probably always will.
If they're not going for the Dashing Swordsman PrC, that is :)



(Just give Yakk an idea, and he'll make a new system out from the thin air just for the sake of creation :) )

[JadedDM]

The whole reaction thing is standard in 2E. I use it all the time. We call it a Reaction Adjustment. I didn't realize they stripped that in 3E.

This is why no smart player will ever make the mistake of dumping Charisma in my game more than once. They learn their lesson quickly. NPCs won't cooperate with them, they get charged more for goods and services, they have a hell of a time hiring help, and most of the time end up in jail. (Unless they are smart enough, that is, to let the PC with the high charisma score to do all the talking.)

I mean, really, in my opinion, attempting to have an audience with the local lord with a CHA of 6 is just as bad as charging an ogre with a STR of 6.

[Skyserpent]

well, when you think about it, It's probably a rarity among people who's sole occupation is to go into danky dungeony places, beat the crap out of things, and bring back loot to have great people skills.

[Matthew]

I don't know. I think at least one of them better have good people management skills, or they won't be coming back...

[amanodel]

Yes, but D&D is really odd at this aspect of gaming. What is your first level character? A dungeon crawler. He has the skills and abilities for it. What is your 20th level character? A dungeon crawler. Just with better skills at it. They may have the gold as medium-size country, but they are still dungeon crawlers.

Aside from some bard class features and "leadership", there are no character abilities unrelated to killing stuff. And as far as "killing stuff" goes, it does not matter how good-looking you are :)

The very concept of d&d 3.5 is opposed to charisma :)


Someone posted here once about Basic d&d, where dungeon crawling was only for 1-3 level characters, and 10+ characters were usually leading armies, while 20-ish characters had their own kingdoms. That, of course, would require totally different rules and abilites for characters.

[Shazzbaa]

Yeah, but for anyone that people regularly looked to for saving the town or helping them, some manner of self-confidence would be pretty requisite.

Jaded -- heh, that's how it should be, methinks. I actually enjoy playing low-CHA characters, but I sort of expect to have a hard time with the social side of life. ^^;

[Golthur]

As per Maglor Grubb's suggestions...
So, by your thinking, DEX is just AC and reflex, WIS becomes initiative, and CHA becomes will? Huh. That's interesting. Maybe could work but it strikes me as... out there. Unfortunately, I think the problem here is WIS and its completely unrelated domains. The reason WIS gets willsave is because it's associated not only with perception, but with Willpower... Thus why it's the top stat for clerics, because a strength of faith and will is paramount for them.

While WIS for initiative makes a lot of sense to me (I'm quick if I know what I'm doing, but I tend to not react quickly because I'm hideously unobservant), I don't particularly like the idea of a character who, simply by being wise and having the "common sense and willpower" side of Wisdom, suddenly has a fabulous initiative.
But then I also don't like a character who, by being wise and having common sense, suddenly is really observant and has surviving skills. So that might just be my problem with the system. ^^;


I like that idea, too. In fact, I think I suggested it in another topic. Anyway, I disagree that Will saves are Wisdom-based because Wisdom represents willpower. I think it's the other way around. Think about it: If somebody's blasting your mind with a spell that causes you to obey their every command, are you really going to be able to shake that off by being really perceptive? Also, Charisma has appeared as force of spirit many times. Anything that naturally casts spells or SLAs will usually have Charisma determining the strength of that magic. When a Ghost makes a Rejuvination check to pull its spirit away from the afterlife to haunt the world in undeath, does it make a Will save? No, it makes a Charisma check. When you have someone Charmed and ask them to do something that they wouldn't normally do, yes, your Charisma's involved, but it's an opposed Charisma check. You don't roll your Charisma versus their Wisdom: The victim's Charisma determines how well they can think for themselves and resist your commands.

Well, the problem I see is that Wisdom itself is an extremely conflicted ability score (much like Charisma, actually). On the one hand, it's willpower; on the other, it's common sense and intuition; and on the third hand :smallsmile: it's perception.

Removing some of these conflicts would probably make it clearer to me. I could reasonably accept the case for perception partially being a matter of intuition (your raw Wisdom modifier), sensory acuity (circumstance modifiers to Spot/Listen checks) and training (your Spot/Listen ranks). Although this is probably splitting hairs, by making perception only your final Spot/Listen modifiers (and not actually based on your Wisdom), you remove one conflict.

You can remove the second conflict by moving force of will and force of personality into the same ability - Charisma. This would make nearly all Will saves Charisma-based, as per Maglor Grubb's recommendation. The only thing that would be a reasonable exception to this would be illusions, and I'm not sure how they would play out.

This would leave Wisdom as the proverbial redheaded stepchild, and it would become the new dump stat. :smile:


The second thing I wonder -- is initiative really (in anything other than those contrived "fighter vs. wizard" scenarios) important enough to keep WIS from being a dump stat in that scenario? Seriously, I'm asking, I honestly don't know.
Tough call - some (tanks) wouldn't care, but anyone who relies on speed and mobility probably wouldn't dump it.


Despite my reservations, however, I will say that I think you could get away with making these changes without stretching anything too much, provided they end up working mechanically. The only problems you'd really have are people's preconceived notions regarding how things are "supposed" to work.

I'd agree with that assessment. The reinterpretations don't stretch believablity too, too much. The only resistance is habit. My only thought is, what if someone has a Wisdom of 18 and a Dex of 6? Sure, he knows what's coming; no, he's not quick enough to do anything about it.

[Yakk]

Yakk, did... did you just make an entirely different system? Just to fix CHA? :smalleek:

It is mostly isomorphic. :)

d20 stats are, 99% of the time, just modifiers. -2 to +4 for "mortals", and higher for people with higher stats.

Change it to -1 to +2 for mortals, and add up two stats instead of adding up one for each action.

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I forgot to mention- I like to set up my campaigns with less dungeon dwelling than most people. It's a rarity that the part comes upon a random cave that just so happens to be full of monsters, I figure. So more of their adventures actually require a little tact.

For instance, in the campaign I just ran tonight, my rogue and bard were kings. They spent the first half of the adventure in a town just causing wacky hijinks and making a rather hefty amount of money for first levelers (they were gestalts at a 40 point buy. You'd think that'd be a monster to CR, but not so with this setup). All because they used charisma and charisma-based skills to really mess with the townspeople. Some of what they used it for that I allowed cannot be mentioned in polite conversation, but it was a rather fun localized adventure with how much trouble they got in and out of in the course of one night without resorting to combat.

I use charisma for attraction, too. Diplomacy only counts if you can communicate with someone, I figure. So to get people to notice you or come to you, you have to look good and be suave. For instance, when my rogue and bard decided that they'd play a completely improvised musical comedy (using their best performance talents together) for money, they used their pure charisma stat to first attract an audience (d20+CHA mod=number of people attracted) who then watched the performance and tipped them based on their combined high rolls with performance. I also made them tell me what and how they were performing, and I've got to tell you, I got a kick out of it.

Meanwhile, the barbarian of the group and the mixed caster didn't get quite so much out of it, since they couldn't get away with nearly enough. They got their fair share on the battlefield to even it out. Well, except the mixed caster. But I can't say what her profession was or why she made so much money in one night. I'm sure you can imagine it.

Later on, this same duo used their charisma skills (some rather amusingly horrifying, yet again) to convince a small village of goblins to follow them as an NPC army against the nearby bugbears. The barbarian and caster might have done great in that fight, but it was really the presense of a ton of goblins and a little creative deception that led to their victory.

All in all, that was probably the best I've ever incorporated charisma into a campaign. Thanks to this forum thread for sprouting the idea in my head of making it more important, and may someone else find this useful.

[Fizban]

After catching up on the thread, I am now going to re-re-define my definitions of the abilities and my ideas:
Str-obvious
Dex-physical speed and agility
Con-toughness
Int-intellegence and memory
Wis-perception and intuition, awareness
Cha-force of personality, willpower

So, while I still like just adding action points based of of charisma, I also like the idea of changing initiative to wisdom based, and will saves to charisma. Illusions pose a problem, but it's no worse than the current problem of your "perception" throwing off domination. With this idea, each ability score is essential:
Str-melee and encumbrance
Dex-AC, ranged attacks, dodging touch attacks
Con-hp and fort saves
Int-skill points
Wis-initiative (which no adventurer in his right mind dumps)
Cha-will saves (and normally if you fail a will save you end up killing your allies)

Additionally, I would go with one of the ideas for changning spellcasting ability scores, ex: cha for all spell saves, highest spells castable based on the usual stat.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I dunno about Wis to Init. Here's how I would do it:

Str: melee and encumbrance
Dex: AC, Init, ranged, Ref
Con: hp, Fort
Int: skill points
Wis: intuition, perception, Will vs. Illusions
Cha: all other Will

[The_Cowinator]

The best suggestion I saw was the idea of a 'reaction' stat, directily tied to CHA, that would give NPCs an initial impression of the character. An NPC barkeep might be chatty and share information with a character with a high "reaction" stat, simply serve a character with a decent reaction, completely ignore a character with lower reaction, and be downright hostile to a character with abysmal reaction. NPC law enforcement might be willing to let it slide "just this once" if a character with high reaction gets in trouble, whereas a character with low reaction would never catch a break. Prices would be higher for characters with low reaction, people would in general be less open, advice from low reaction characters would frequently be ignored.

They had that in 1st and 2nd ED. And CHA was never underpowered there, mostly because of that, henchmen, and the Paladin class.

This is why I hate 3rd ED. So limited, with so many freaking problems.

[Matthew]

How about dual Attribute Saves?

Fortitude: Strength or Constitution
Reflex: Dexterity or Intelligence
Willpower: Wisdom or Charisma

You use the highest modifier, unless one is a negative which must be added:

i.e.
+3 and +2 = +3
+2 and -1 = +1
-2 and -3 = -3

[Shazzbaa]

Aren't reflex saves and initiative kind of based on the same idea? One is seeing if you react fast enough to get out of the way, the other is seeing who out of a group reacts the fastest. Why would one be based on DEX and the other on WIS?
Though I'll admit I'm still having a hard time accepting that being wise and perceptive also makes you able to get your rear in gear when it counts.

I'm liking the action points idea more and more, though, as it makes sort of a weird sense to me (and doesn't involve your players whining "why are will saves CHA now? That's stupid!"). How many action points would you guys say a character gets (I'm assuming something + CHA modifier)... and how much would that change the power level, as it were, of the game?

Matthew -- so, that would keep CHA at a solid ten, then, I suppose, where it would ordinarily be dumped (though in some campaigns, 10 *is* a dump...). Though I really would think that Reflex saves would have the least to do with intelligence. I mean, it's supposed to be sort of "realising you need to get out of the way before you really have time to think about it," so that would be, at most, DEX and WIS... and not include INT at all.

[Matthew]

Being wise and perceptive allows you to get your rear into gear before it counts. That's why the Monk adds his Wisdom Bonus to AC, he sees the blow before it is coming.

[Charity]

Another possibility if you have a mostly combat based game, just have the creatures attack the lowest Charisma party members first... thats when the Sorcerer gets to laugh at the Wizard for a change... or at least the bits of him the Orc left behind after stomping him into the floor.

[Person_Man]

I think the simple solution is to let Charisma go the way of Comliness. Back in the day, it made perfect sense to everyone that Charisma (force of personality) should be a different stat from Comliness (attractiveness). After all, Lincoln was one of the most Charismatic people in history, but he was also butt ugly. Yet Comliness was such a useless stat, everyone would dump it. So they combined them.

So I propose that they eliminate Wis and Cha, rename it Character or Personality or something similar, and have it cover everything Wis and Cha covers.

[Matthew]

Huh? wasn't Comliness created after Charisma and then reintegrated? Regardless. I don't see any need to combine Charisma with Wisdom.

[Golthur]

Aren't reflex saves and initiative kind of based on the same idea? One is seeing if you react fast enough to get out of the way, the other is seeing who out of a group reacts the fastest. Why would one be based on DEX and the other on WIS?

Though I'll admit I'm still having a hard time accepting that being wise and perceptive also makes you able to get your rear in gear when it counts.


Being wise and perceptive allows you to get your rear into gear before it counts. That's why the Monk adds his Wisdom Bonus to AC, he sees the blow before it is coming.

Exactly so. I would view Wisdom-on-initiative (if I were going that route) as being able to perceive the danger before it manifests itself, and being able to keep a cool head - all important in combat. But, as I pointed out before, IMHO, the Wis 17/Dex 5 person might be able to see stuff happening, but damned if they could do anything about it.

As for Reflex saves, I'd always thought raw Reflex saves are when you have no real indication that you need to react before you need to move. Only prescience would let Wisdom impact that.


I'm liking the action points idea more and more, though, as it makes sort of a weird sense to me (and doesn't involve your players whining "why are will saves CHA now? That's stupid!"). How many action points would you guys say a character gets (I'm assuming something + CHA modifier)... and how much would that change the power level, as it were, of the game?

What I'm tinkering with currently has it start at your CHA bonus, if any (bonus points at 1st level, really, which is when you desperately need them) +1 per character level. I'm tempted to make a CHA penalty take away, as well - and having a negative balance on these points would be a "bad thing".

My thinking is having your CHA bonus in action points automatically per level would alter the power level dramatically if every character had it. I do have a feat (called Fated - since I call them "fate points"), which allows you to reset your point total to your CHA modifier each level if it's less than it after your award.

You gain them through DM fiat (one per major plotline or so, or for "dramatic heroism"), and roleplaying (much like the Deadlands hindrances system). Plus, you automatically gain +1 per character level.

[ghost_warlock]

They had that in 1st and 2nd ED. And CHA was never underpowered there, mostly because of that, henchmen, and the Paladin class.

This is why I hate 3rd ED. So limited, with so many freaking problems.

Off topic rambling about 2nd vs. 3rd ed.:Are you seriously suggesting that Cha wasn't a dump-able stat in 2nd edition? I would disagree with you on that. I played 2nd ed for years, with a number of different DMs and I don't think anyone ever even asked what my characters' Cha was. I never had henchmen, but neither did any of the other players. I'm pretty sure my groups just assumed that Cha = comliness and never cared about it again for our characters. The only reason not to dump it was if you wanted to play a paladin or a druid (yes, I intentionally omitted bard). Or when your character met a barmaid or something - "What's her Charisma?"

I also can't believe that you seriously think 3rd ed is more limited than 2nd. C'mon, a core 2nd ed character was basically just a carbon-copy of any other character of the same class except for different attributes and maybe different weapon proficiencies. Non-weapon proficiencies were optional rules! There was almost no variation until the Player's Option books came out. By then, though, 2nd ed was doing its death throes.

As for problems, 2nd ed had it's own share, they were just different ones than 3rd. THAC0 and negative ACs? Bend bars/lift gates vs. Str check? FIVE different saving throws based on the source of the attack rather than how you would logically resist it? Percentile-based thief skills and Strength where everything else in the system (besides damage) was based on the d20? Racial limitations on experience level?

Anyway... I'd like to note the "Force of Personality" feat in Complete Adventurer, it does what a lot of the posters here seem to think should be done with the issue of Will saves being based on Wisdom vs. Charisma (at least for mind-affecting effects).

[Name_Here]

Has anybody suggested breaking off the CHA skills into their own special skill catagory where you can gain x+CHA bonus skill points to use purely on CHA based skills?
Somebody else can probaly crunch the numbers better than I can but I think a system like this would take away the main complaint about the charisma monkey being routinuely trounced in diplomacy and othe Charisma based skills by the party rogue.

Course other than that I have yet to see a single suggestion that I can really agree with. I mean you need to have 1 stat that can be less than stellar with very little backlash. Otherwise your charecter gets slapped around because you didn't roll 6 18's.

[Shazzbaa]

Exactly so. I would view Wisdom-on-initiative (if I were going that route) as being able to perceive the danger before it manifests itself, and being able to keep a cool head - all important in combat. But, as I pointed out before, IMHO, the Wis 17/Dex 5 person might be able to see stuff happening, but damned if they could do anything about it.

As for Reflex saves, I'd always thought raw Reflex saves are when you have no real indication that you need to react before you need to move. Only prescience would let Wisdom impact that.
Golthur, you make a lot of sense to me. :smallsmile: I'll buy that.
Though I must mention that I've frequently found myself in the situation of the high wis/low dex person IRL...

I'll point out that if you were attempting to make the aforementioned wis 17/dex 5 character, that you could simply take the Unreactive Flaw (-6 to initiative) to fix that discrepancy... but that doesn't really solve the problem of enforcing such limitations on someone else's character.


What I'm tinkering with currently has it start at your CHA bonus, if any (bonus points at 1st level, really, which is when you desperately need them) +1 per character level. I'm tempted to make a CHA penalty take away, as well - and having a negative balance on these points would be a "bad thing".

Interesting. So, you get one every level just because you exist, but a high CHA lets you start out with extras? I like not giving out loads of them. Though I am curious what sort of penalties negative fate points would create... 0_o


So I propose that they eliminate Wis and Cha, rename it Character or Personality or something similar, and have it cover everything Wis and Cha covers.NOooooo! WIS is a confused stat as it is (and that's where half the problems of squiggling everything around are coming from). If you put WIS and CHA together then you're going to have a character who's better able to survive in the wild because of his personality. :smallfrown: Having great character is not going to make you more perceptive!

Though I'm suddenly wondering if it'd be worthwhile to rearrange all the domains of WIS and CHA to make new stats like Character and Perception? The former (which would want for a better name) would cover willpower and thus will saves... force-of-personality stuff, while Perception would cover initiative (as mentioned above) and all the spot/listen/survival/sense motive-type skills. Though for the "character" type ability I'd want a name more like "willpower" -- it'd be a sort of inner power, and it doesn't make a lot of initial sense to be good at casting spells because of "character" or "personality."
... and now that I've typed all that, I think that's exactly what all this willsave/initiative squiggling is doing. Okay! It makes sense now.

Though with those changes I'd suddenly want clerics to be getting their spells from the inner strength stat rather than the perception stat. And... well, what would perception be good mechanically good for? Initiative... and... yeah. New dump stat.

Rawr, I think I'm rambling again.

[BnF95]

Charisma is pretty important when you get out of the dungeons and into the cities. Ever try pushing a guard out of the way of a walled city?

[AtomicKitKat]

My 2 cp.

Having been the "weird kid" for most of my life, I would rather not see my self-reflective characters(or at least those that do reflect my own abilities) have to put up with being shunted by the wayside for the "pretty boys and girls" of the game world. They already get enough perks IRL. I'd wager some of the older, more stereotyped players felt that way, and it carried over when designing the latest version.

[Matthew]

Matthew -- so, that would keep CHA at a solid ten, then, I suppose, where it would ordinarily be dumped (though in some campaigns, 10 *is* a dump...). Though I really would think that Reflex saves would have the least to do with intelligence. I mean, it's supposed to be sort of "realising you need to get out of the way before you really have time to think about it," so that would be, at most, DEX and WIS... and not include INT at all.

I admit Intelligence was the last to be placed, but I do have a (slighty dubious) justification! Speed of thought. I would argue that dim witted and slow people (or Ogres) tend to react more slowly not only because of physical reflex, but also because of mental inability to recognise what is happening and act quickly. I think Intelligence best models speed of thought, rather than Wisdom, which is more of a contemplative knowledge asscociated with Divine revelation and such. That's my story, anyway.

Actually, in my Homebrewed and Houseruled Campaign I use this system for Skills as well, so that every Skill has at least two Attributes connected with it. It works rather well.

Obviously, if 10 is considered a 'dumped' stat, then that is a bit of a problem, but at least it prevents the worst excesses of dumping Attributes.

Charity: Sounds like the Monsters would truly become metaphors for bullies.

Golthur: Action points are definitely an interesting idea, but I am not sure I want to tie them into an Attribute Score, even at first level. Still, worth considering.

Ghost Warlock: Different strokes for different folks. The mechanics can get in the way of freedom as much as they can facilitate them, it just depends on how they are applied.

Name Here: Interesting, but wouldn't this involve redesigning how Skill Points are gained and allocated? (not necessarily a bad thing).

BnF95: Of course you are right, but Shazzbaa is particularly looking for mechanical ways to integrate Charisma (Reaction Rolls would be good, as discussed).

AtomicKitKat: That is a possibility, but it's worth bearing in mind that even socially awkward and less than beautiful people can have a high Charisma, just as beautiful and socially proficient people can turn out to be less than charismatic.

[ghost_warlock]

What I'm tinkering with currently has it start at your CHA bonus, if any (bonus points at 1st level, really, which is when you desperately need them) +1 per character level. I'm tempted to make a CHA penalty take away, as well - and having a negative balance on these points would be a "bad thing".

My thinking is having your CHA bonus in action points automatically per level would alter the power level dramatically if every character had it. I do have a feat (called Fated - since I call them "fate points"), which allows you to reset your point total to your CHA modifier each level if it's less than it after your award.

You gain them through DM fiat (one per major plotline or so, or for "dramatic heroism"), and roleplaying (much like the Deadlands hindrances system). Plus, you automatically gain +1 per character level.

For my next campaign I'm going to do it this way:

Base Action Points = 3 + 1 per 2 character levels + Cha modifier (minimum zero).

Thus, having a Cha of 9 or less will actually reduce the number of A.P. a character has. If they start the game with less than a 5 Cha, they won't have any A.P. A character with a 1 Cha will have to wait until 6th level to get even one A.P.

As a side note, the Action Point system found in the SRD (and in Unearthed Arcana) makes A.P. more powerful than the system integrated into the Eberron Campaign Setting; i.e., individual A.P. are more useful. Also, some of the uses in Eberron require a player to spend more than one A.P. at a time.

Additional: In many games I've run, I've also used Cha for a "luck" roll. When something comes down to just plain old dumb luck, I usually have the player roll a DC 15 Cha check to determine how things go. If they roll a 5 or less it's bad luck, 15+ good luck.

[AtomicKitKat]

AtomicKitKat: That is a possibility, but it's worth bearing in mind that even socially awkward and less than beautiful people can have a high Charisma, just as beautiful and socially proficient people can turn out to be less than charismatic.

Only if you're using the "Sense of Self" interpretation of Charisma. :P In my case, I can speak eloquently enough here, but in person, I tend to let other people take the conversation.

[Matthew]

I would argue that it's really a matter of experience and situation, rather than truly keyed to personality. It's quite noticable how quiet and reserved some people are usually, but when put amongst others they consider to have similar interests, they suddenly come alive, especially if in a 'safe' environment. Sometimes it's a matter of expectations, I know some people who behave differently in different groups.

I know what you are saying, though. A lot depends on exactly how you define Charisma for the purposes of the game. I usually see it as mainly Self Confidence and to some degree a measure of inner strength.

[AtomicKitKat]

I would argue that it's really a matter of experience and situation, rather than truly keyed to personality. It's quite noticable how quiet and reserved some people are usually, but when put amongst others they consider to have similar interests, they suddenly come alive, especially if in a 'safe' environment. Sometimes it's a matter of expectations, I know some people who behave differently in different groups.

Hmm. I think you hit the nail on the head. "Similar Interests" and "Safe Environment".{/derail}

[Person_Man]

So I propose that they eliminate Wis and Cha, rename it Character or Personality or something similar, and have it cover everything Wis and Cha covers.



NOooooo! WIS is a confused stat as it is (and that's where half the problems of squiggling everything around are coming from). If you put WIS and CHA together then you're going to have a character who's better able to survive in the wild because of his personality. :smallfrown: Having great character is not going to make you more perceptive!

I agree. If we wanted stats to be an accurate reflection of who the character is, we'd probably need about a dozen stats. Strength, Speed, Hand Eye Coordination, Girth, Endurance, Memory, Perception, Logic, Creativity, Charisma, Comliness, etc, etc.

But the reality of the game is that statistics only give you a vague sketch of the character. The rest is filled in by class, Skills, and far more importantly, by roleplaying.

So my solution isn't a great one, but from a mechanics point of view, it works well quite well. You don't have to use action points. You don't have to create new game mechanics so that Charisma doesn't feel like it got the lousy Christmas gift this year. And it doesn't make any other stat weaker (by moving Initiative from Dex to Cha, for example).


Though I'm suddenly wondering if it'd be worthwhile to rearrange all the domains of WIS and CHA to make new stats like Character and Perception? The former (which would want for a better name) would cover willpower and thus will saves... force-of-personality stuff, while Perception would cover initiative (as mentioned above) and all the spot/listen/survival/sense motive-type skills. Though for the "character" type ability I'd want a name more like "willpower" -- it'd be a sort of inner power, and it doesn't make a lot of initial sense to be good at casting spells because of "character" or "personality."
... and now that I've typed all that, I think that's exactly what all this willsave/initiative squiggling is doing. Okay! It makes sense now.

I like the way you're thinking. But I'm not sure if I agree with the particulars. I don't like the idea of making Dex weaker though.

[Thrawn183]

I think that there are two problems here that, if properly addressed, might be able to fix the problem with charisma.
1) Charisma is an incredibly important stat... why do so many players drop it? Simple, the party only has one "face." If you're in a mostly standard campaign with 5 pc's you'll have something like a fighter/barbarian, rogue, cleric, arcane caster and bard. If the party doesn't have someone with a high charisma and the skills / roleplay ability to use it than they're screwed. The reason four out of five of the pc's can dump it, is that only the party face (almost certainly the rogue or bard in this example) really needs it. This is the polar opposite of battle where everyone benefits from a high con score: you can't just hide in the corner and let your tank handle all the things that want to eat you and wear your skin as a boustier (I have no idea how to spell it :smallbiggrin: ). Solution: make sure that pc's can't always rely on the one character with a good charisma score. If every player knows that their pc's are going to have to play out some "social encounters" they'll think twice about just dumping charisma.
2) The problem with skill points: someone mentioned earlier playing a charisma based character that still had a lower diplomacy check than an 8 Charisma monk. What was the root of this problem: class skills. It isn't possible to make a character with personalized skills. If you want to play a fighter that is good with use magic device, decipher script and knowledge (arcana) you simply can't really do it. The two solutions that I have come up with: (i.) Allow characters to pick their own "class skills" and just call them persoanlized skills. Base the number of class skills the person has off the number of class skills their class would have, just let them pick exactly which ones they get. (ii.) Allow characters to max ranks in non-class skills, just keep making it cost twice as many skill points to do so. That fighter that's only getting 2 + int skills per level won't be maxing many non-class skills, but still has the option of doing so with at least one if he really really wants to.

I really only bring up the problem with skill points because I want to be able to play a cleric with good spot and listen. I'm a freakin ranged character (pls, lets avoid the topic of the melee cleric)! What's the point of long range spells if I never see anyone?

[Matthew]

Spot and Listen don't reflect your ability to See and Hear normally, they only reflect your ability to See and Hear things that are beyond normal and untrained perception. That said, I would divorce Skills and Skill Points almost entirely from Character Class if I was looking to implement a significant change to the game. Back to Character Points please!

[Golthur]

Golthur, you make a lot of sense to me. :smallsmile: I'll buy that.
Though I must mention that I've frequently found myself in the situation of the high wis/low dex person IRL...

I'll point out that if you were attempting to make the aforementioned wis 17/dex 5 character, that you could simply take the Unreactive Flaw (-6 to initiative) to fix that discrepancy... but that doesn't really solve the problem of enforcing such limitations on someone else's character.
It somewhat makes sense to me to make initiative the lower of your Wisdom and Dexterity modifiers - so Wis 17/Dex 5 would be aware, but too slow to react, and Wis 5/Dex 17 would be quick, but oblivious.

I might also make situations where this wouldn't apply, such as if you were the one initiating combat. In this case, your Wisdom limit might not apply.

I haven't had time to figure out all the different aspects of the game this sort of change would break, though :wink:


Interesting. So, you get one every level just because you exist, but a high CHA lets you start out with extras? I like not giving out loads of them. Though I am curious what sort of penalties negative fate points would create... 0_o
So am I. :amused:

My current thoughts are perhaps exactly the opposite of what a fate point permits you - that is, the DM can "spend" them to make you automatically destabilize when you're stable; subtract 2d6 from a roll, or something similar.

But I'm open to suggestions :biggrin:


NOooooo! WIS is a confused stat as it is (and that's where half the problems of squiggling everything around are coming from). If you put WIS and CHA together then you're going to have a character who's better able to survive in the wild because of his personality. :smallfrown: Having great character is not going to make you more perceptive!

Though I'm suddenly wondering if it'd be worthwhile to rearrange all the domains of WIS and CHA to make new stats like Character and Perception? The former (which would want for a better name) would cover willpower and thus will saves... force-of-personality stuff, while Perception would cover initiative (as mentioned above) and all the spot/listen/survival/sense motive-type skills. Though for the "character" type ability I'd want a name more like "willpower" -- it'd be a sort of inner power, and it doesn't make a lot of initial sense to be good at casting spells because of "character" or "personality."
... and now that I've typed all that, I think that's exactly what all this willsave/initiative squiggling is doing. Okay! It makes sense now.
Call of Cthulhu (BRP) has a stat called POW which is exactly that. No perception stat, though - perception is entirely skill based. Physical appearance and social graces are separated off into a separate APP stat.


Though with those changes I'd suddenly want clerics to be getting their spells from the inner strength stat rather than the perception stat. And... well, what would perception be good mechanically good for? Initiative... and... yeah. New dump stat.
That's more or less what I'd think would happen - the moment nothing is dependent on it, it becomes the new dump stat.


I admit Intelligence was the last to be placed, but I do have a (slighty dubious) justification! Speed of thought. I would argue that dim witted and slow people (or Ogres) tend to react more slowly not only because of physical reflex, but also because of mental inability to recognise what is happening and act quickly. I think Intelligence best models speed of thought, rather than Wisdom, which is more of a contemplative knowledge asscociated with Divine revelation and such. That's my story, anyway.
Interesting; so, the analogy would be something like:

Strength => Charisma (magnitude of effort)
Dexterity => Intelligence (speed and complexity of effort)
Constitution => Wisdom (duration of effort)


Golthur: Action points are definitely an interesting idea, but I am not sure I want to tie them into an Attribute Score, even at first level. Still, worth considering.
Yes, my thought was limiting it to first level would tame the worst of the abuses, yet still make it so no one would want to dump the stat completely (or at least make them think twice before they do, which is the whole point). If you awarded that amount per level, it would be way, way too much.

My Fated feat is a 1st-level only feat (and I have a lot of similar 1st-level only feats that are all the starts of chains), so in my homebrew, it would actually be a tough call whether to take Fated or not.


For my next campaign I'm going to do it this way:

Base Action Points = 3 + 1 per 2 character levels + Cha modifier (minimum zero).

Thus, having a Cha of 9 or less will actually reduce the number of A.P. a character has. If they start the game with less than a 5 Cha, they won't have any A.P. A character with a 1 Cha will have to wait until 6th level to get even one A.P.
That's similar to mine, except more at first level, less thereafter.


As a side note, the Action Point system found in the SRD (and in Unearthed Arcana) makes A.P. more powerful than the system integrated into the Eberron Campaign Setting; i.e., individual A.P. are more useful. Also, some of the uses in Eberron require a player to spend more than one A.P. at a time.
Yes, I've removed some of what I consider the more "extreme" uses of action points - such as emulating feats you don't have, etc. That just has the potential for too much cheese.

My basic uses are:
Auto-Stabilize: Expend 1 point to automatically stabilize.
Boost Before Roll: Expend 1 point to add +2d6 to a d20 roll before you roll it.
Boost After Roll: Expend 1 point to add +1d6 to a d20 roll after you roll it - you can keep on spending if you need a particular roll.
Reuse Ability: If a feat gives you a special ability that is usable only a specific number of times per day, you can typically expend a point to use it again even if you've already used it.



Additional: In many games I've run, I've also used Cha for a "luck" roll. When something comes down to just plain old dumb luck, I usually have the player roll a DC 15 Cha check to determine how things go. If they roll a 5 or less it's bad luck, 15+ good luck.
Call of Cthulhu BRP does this with POW - a POWx5% roll is a generic "luck" roll.

[ghost_warlock]

That's similar to mine, except more at first level, less thereafter.
I mostly decided to do it that way because it meant I didn't have to change the base system too much (5 + 1 per 2 levels) and because I want to watch the people in my games who seriously dump Cha cringe when they realize they've only got a couple A.P. until they level a few times. :smallamused:


Yes, I've removed some of what I consider the more "extreme" uses of action points - such as emulating feats you don't have, etc. That just has the potential for too much cheese.

My basic uses are:

Auto-Stabilize: Expend 1 point to automatically stabilize.
Boost Before Roll: Expend 1 point to add +2d6 to a d20 roll before you roll it.
Boost After Roll: Expend 1 point to add +1d6 to a d20 roll after you roll it - you can keep on spending if you need a particular roll.
Reuse Ability: If a feat gives you a special ability that is usable only a specific number of times per day, you can typically expend a point to use it again even if you've already used it.The feat emulation thing isn't too bad if you keep in mind that they must meet all the prerequisites for a feat they're trying to emulate and it only lasts for one round. I see it used for Improved Initiative more than anything else. Occasionally, someone will get clever and use it to emulate Spell Focus or (for a 4th-level fighter) Weapon Specialization.

The Extra Attack and Spell Recall actions can get a little crazy, though. :smallannoyed:


Call of Cthulhu BRP does this with POW - a POWx5% roll is a generic "luck" roll.
Sadly, I've only played in one CoC session using the Chaosium ruleset - and I effectively played a meatshield - barely survived! :smallfrown: I've played a few Lovecraftian games using other systems, though.

[Amphimir Míriel]

I finally went and read about Action Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/actionPoints.htm), as I apparently failed the Knowledge (Obvious) check to realise that this was an existing variant until just now. ^^;

'Twould be interesting to base them on CHA. They seem to read almost as that movie-hero's ability to somehow struggle back from being dead at the last minute, or somehow muster the strength he didn't have before at just the right time... which matches the idea some people have of CHA being somewhat related to extra-heroicness.

I like the name "last resorts" for something like that, too.

I would vote (as a variant rule to a variant rule :smallwink: ) to replace the " 5 + 1/2 CL" rule for a "2 + CHA bonus + 1/2 CL"

[Matthew]

Interesting; so, the analogy would be something like:

Strength => Charisma (magnitude of effort)
Dexterity => Intelligence (speed and complexity of effort)
Constitution => Wisdom (duration of effort)

Yes, indeed, something along those lines. Examples would include Strength and Dexterity for Climbing, Intelligence and Wisdom for Knowledge, Dexterity and Intelligence for Disable Device and so on...
I have found that the most common combinations are:

Strength / Constitution - Physical Endurance
Strength / Dexterity - Combat and Movement
Dexterity / Intelligence - Intricate practical Skills
Intelligence / Wisdom - Scholarly type Skills
Intelligence / Charisma - Trickery or Entertainment
Intelligence / Wisdom / Charisma - Serious Social interaction



Yes, my thought was limiting it to first level would tame the worst of the abuses, yet still make it so no one would want to dump the stat completely (or at least make them think twice before they do, which is the whole point). If you awarded that amount per level, it would be way, way too much.

My Fated feat is a 1st-level only feat (and I have a lot of similar 1st-level only feats that are all the starts of chains), so in my homebrew, it would actually be a tough call whether to take Fated or not.

I usually pace Action / Destiny / Fate Points out at one per level. I just allow them for rerolls and automatic stabalisation. I'm not sure how increasing that to 1-5 points, depending on Charisma, at Level 1 and one every level thereafter would influence things. An interesting idea, more thought or playtesting required for me.

[Mewtarthio]

2) The problem with skill points: someone mentioned earlier playing a charisma based character that still had a lower diplomacy check than an 8 Charisma monk. What was the root of this problem: class skills. It isn't possible to make a character with personalized skills. If you want to play a fighter that is good with use magic device, decipher script and knowledge (arcana) you simply can't really do it. The two solutions that I have come up with: (i.) Allow characters to pick their own "class skills" and just call them persoanlized skills. Base the number of class skills the person has off the number of class skills their class would have, just let them pick exactly which ones they get.

That sounds like the Generic classes from UA.

[Thrawn183]

That sounds like the Generic classes from UA.

When I first heard of the Generic classes, they really struck a chord. Though "heard about them" is about as much as I can say I know about them. This was just stuff I came up with on my own. Though it now looks like this thread has gone to a discussion of charisma based action points / stuff that is way over my head so... yeah. *goes off to troll some more*

[Golthur]

Yes, indeed, something along those lines. Examples would include Strength and Dexterity for Climbing, Intelligence and Wisdom for Knowledge, Dexterity and Intelligence for Disable Device and so on...
I have found that the most common combinations are:

Strength / Constitution - Physical Endurance
Strength / Dexterity - Combat and Movement
Dexterity / Intelligence - Intricate practical Skills
Intelligence / Wisdom - Scholarly type Skills
Intelligence / Charisma - Trickery or Entertainment
Intelligence / Wisdom / Charisma - Serious Social interaction

Do you halve the modifiers when you do this, just use "highest of"/"lowest of", or add them together and adjust all the DCs to match?


I usually pace Action / Destiny / Fate Points out at one per level. I just allow them for rerolls and automatic stabalisation. I'm not sure how increasing that to 1-5 points, depending on Charisma, at Level 1 and one every level thereafter would influence things. An interesting idea, more thought or playtesting required for me.
I don't use them for rerolls, that's probably the difference. I use them for boosts, which, although they can help a bad roll, can't entirely fix it.

[Matthew]

Do you halve the modifiers when you do this, just use "highest of"/"lowest of", or add them together and adjust all the DCs to match?

As described above, I use the following system:

In the case of two negatives, the lowest negative is used
In the case of two positives, the highest positive is used
In the case of one negative and one positive, they are added together
In a case where an Attribute is clealry not applicable, it is not used


I don't use them for rerolls, that's probably the difference. I use them for boosts, which, although they can help a bad roll, can't entirely fix it.

Boosts are a good idea, but I opted for rerolls after one Player Character blew up a Star Destroyer with his X-Wing in Second Edition Star Wars; the Adventure I had planned was set to take place there and I had to spend the rest of the session ad libbing! I might have been reading the rules wrong, but it didn't seem like it at the time...

[Viscount Einstrauss]

I have another idea!

The typical skill point limit is ECL+3, right? Well, why not instead make that ECL+3+Appropriate modifier? So someone with a good charisma score doesn't just get better with those skills, they can also put more ranks into them.

I'm sure there's some balancing issues here, but it means that the charisma-based stats would be much better in the hands of someone with high charisma, not just the bard/rogue with high intelligence (though that would still help).

[Hario]

I have another idea!

The typical skill point limit is ECL+3, right? Well, why not instead make that ECL+3+Appropriate modifier? So someone with a good charisma score doesn't just get better with those skills, they can also put more ranks into them.

I'm sure there's some balancing issues here, but it means that the charisma-based stats would be much better in the hands of someone with high charisma, not just the bard/rogue with high intelligence (though that would still help).

but modifiers are already included into the total rank of a skill, the problem is with class/crossclass in that respect.

[Bobbis]

I find it comes down to two ability scores; wis/chr.

Here's what I've done.

Cha =/= appearance; we'll use physical stats to see what you look like.

Charaisma is force of personality/spirit; therefore it applies to will saves; as well as natural leadership. All other uses remain the same.

Wisdom: For each natural (non magical) modifier in wisdom you can pick one more class skill, if the stat is negative you must lose class skills; experience is also modified by 100% + (Wis - 10)% similar to second edition.

One idea I've been playing with, but have not accepted totally; is that you may make 4 class skills cross-class and earn one feat.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I think I'd be happy to just apply CHA to NPC reactions - sort of Old Skool. :biggrin:

Using the Diplomacy table in the PHB, have initial encounters with NPCs be effected as if the PC had just rolled a 1 on a Diplomacy check (without applying Diplomacy rank bonuses, as you're not actively using the skill) - you'd better have some bonuses in CHA, or you're going to make your NPCs more hostile just by being there.
(Of course, this reaction will be superceded by an immediate active use of Diplomacy - if a charming and erudite character immediately starts talking, NPCs will be paying more attention to that than his basic demeanor.)

Also, I'm going to play test this skill system variant: -1 from listed Skill Points per level, and have 1+CHA modifier to put in CHA-based skills only. INT skill points can be spent on CHA skills, but not vice versa.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[tbarrie]

I find it comes down to two ability scores; wis/chr.
Wisdom: For each natural (non magical) modifier in wisdom you can pick one more class skill, if the stat is negative you must lose class skills; experience is also modified by 100% + (Wis - 10)% similar to second edition.

The last bit is only a good idea if you want every single character to max out Wisdom, regardless of class or concept.


One idea I've been playing with, but have not accepted totally; is that you may make 4 class skills cross-class and earn one feat.

Isn't that just free feats for classes with long skill lists? Nobody has enough skill points to develop all of their class skills anyway (well, Wizards come close), so there's no drawback to deselecting the ones you don't plan to use.

[Bobbis]

Well, that was the main problem with the skills to feats; but ridiculous amount of wisdom buffs would only get you exp bonus; would you go for a 25% increase at 35 wis at the expense of all your other stats? It just encourages wisdom not to be a dump stat if chr is in charge of will saves.

[tbarrie]

Well, that was the main problem with the skills to feats; but ridiculous amount of wisdom buffs would only get you exp bonus; would you go for a 25% increase at 35 wis at the expense of all your other stats? It just encourages wisdom not to be a dump stat if chr is in charge of will saves.

Oops, I had misread that as (Wis-10)*10%. 1% for each point of Wisdom isn't bad, but I expect in practice having to calculate tiny modifiers on every XP reward would get annoying.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Also, I'm going to play test this skill system variant: -1 from listed Skill Points per level, and have 1+CHA modifier to put in CHA-based skills only. INT skill points can be spent on CHA skills, but not vice versa.


Rii-iight...
Well, that didn't work. Fighters and Clerics have a hard enough time with their skill points as it is, without me taking one of them away each level.

If I give characters their CHA bonus per level to spend on CHA skill ranks, that would work - a charistmatic person doesn't have to be smart to be good at bluffing. But the same logic ought to be applied to STR (how does my INT effect how good at climbing I am?) and DEX (how does INT make me better at Balance?) and... we'll be back where we started.

I'm just going to stick with the NPC reactions thing.

Maybe I'll include CHA checks in buying and selling - 1d20+CHA modifier -10 = percentage change in price in the PC's favour. That'll hit them in the belt pouch...

[Matthew]

Bummer. Yeah. Consider divorcing Skill Points from the Levelling Up process and assign them as suitable during the course of play. [i.e. "Well, Bob the Rogue did a lot of Sneaking and Hiding between this level and the last, so add a rank to each of those Skills." etc...]

[Yakk]

Add animistic spirits, and use cha to determine spirit reactions with to players.

Ie, when you try to cross a river, roll cha + any modifiers for a sacrafice made to appease the river spirit. The result determines if the river spirit likes you or dislikes you, and changes the difficulty of the crossing.

Same for boating, hunting in a forest, climbing a cliff or mountain, hiding your money, eating food/drinking water (is it toxic?), catching communal deseases, sacrafices made at appropriate festivals and the new year, arranging ambushes against bad guys, etc.

If Luck is mainly controlled by the local Spirits, then your reaction roll with the Spirits (modified by sacrafices/other appeasements) determines your Luck. :)