Discussion about Eclipse Phase, Biomorphs, and the Watts-MacLeod Exsurgent Strain

[erikun]

Picking up on an Eclipse Phase conversation that started over here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=295757&page=4)


Actually, I had been thinking that simply introducing the Watts-McLeod strain of the exsurgent nanovirus would do the trick.

My point was that biomorphs must undergo some kind of physical change after exposure. No one appears to naturally have sleights available, though perhaps they're unlocked somehow. Additionally, Egos don't appear to be cognitively affected by being jammed into a foreign brain, unless such things are designed.

But going this far pokes at the deep, dark, and altogether icky issues locked away at the bottom of Eclipse Phase's heart: How does the mind-body dichotomy actually work? What exactly is resleeving, particularly where biomorphs are concerned?
The Exsurgent virus quite literally rewrites the brain, reorganizing the neurons in the brain to change how it works. In most cases, this results in the victim going crazy and attacking without reason (along with granting Psi slights). In the Watts-MacLeod case, this just ends up granting Psi slights with only a few changes in the person's personality.

The reason you cannot simply infect a morph with Watts-MacLeod for temporary Psi abilities is that resleeving ends up restructuring the neurons in the brain itself to match the brain pattern of the mind that is being uploaded. Since the Exsurgent infection just changes the neuron pattern of the brain, uploading undoes this and changes it into the pattern of the uploaded mind.


Okay. So what's so special about organic matter?
Because that's how it works. It's like asking what's so special about carbon that it is needed to create steel - that's just how the Psi slights function.

If you want my opinion, the Exsurgent virus most likely modifies the cerebellum or brain stem, or some other subconscious part of the brain. Pods replace the frontal lobes of the brain with a computer, while leaving the lower portions of the brain an organic product. This is why pods can use Psi slights, just with difficulty. It can still work, but requires the transfer from a mechanical computer to the organic nervous system, and the organic-mechanical crossover isn't optimized for the transfer of information to use Psi slights.

[Yuki Akuma]

Resleeving works by releasing a bunch of nanobots into the morph's brain and physically rewiring the neurons so they're an exact copy of the ego. Which is why Ego Bridges are described as nanotech.

And as the Exurgent virus also physically rewrites the neurons... it can be copied by an Ego Bridge.

In fact, if you knew how the Watts-MacLeod strain actually worked, you could probably reprogram an Ego Bridge to infect people with it.

[Lord Raziere]

wow, long thread title.

anyways, for some less extradiegetic reasoning from me:

The TITANs, if they designed the Exsurgent Virus, probably already have the systems to hack ANY mind, organic or electronic. lets face it, if the TITANs made the exsurgent virus, or even got infected or just plain found it and started to design their own from it, they probably picked up Psi themselves along the way. (Jovians, other paranoid people? your efforts are probably useless, cause your wetware is probably just as hackable as anything else)

so assuming that the Watts-Macleod strain is designed well….it implies that the TITANs want humanity to have psi. perhaps as a tool to divide humanity against itself? probably something like that, intentionally organic only, while synths get hacking.

other wise its just an accidental offshoot of other exsurgent viruses, and its inability to affect synths of be wielded by synths is just an inherent limitation of the strain.

[Grinner]

The Exsurgent virus quite literally rewrites the brain, reorganizing the neurons in the brain to change how it works. In most cases, this results in the victim going crazy and attacking without reason (along with granting Psi slights). In the Watts-MacLeod case, this just ends up granting Psi slights with only a few changes in the person's personality.

The reason you cannot simply infect a morph with Watts-MacLeod for temporary Psi abilities is that resleeving ends up restructuring the neurons in the brain itself to match the brain pattern of the mind that is being uploaded. Since the Exsurgent infection just changes the neuron pattern of the brain, uploading undoes this and changes it into the pattern of the uploaded mind.

That can't be entirely true, though. Take the Fury biomorph, for instance. It actually creates a pack instinct in the occupying Ego, even where none would have existed before. Moreover, these cognitive changes are described as being genetic, not cybernetic.

So I guess the question now is "What portions of the brain are copied?"


If you want my opinion, the Exsurgent virus most likely modifies the cerebellum or brain stem, or some other subconscious part of the brain. Pods replace the frontal lobes of the brain with a computer, while leaving the lower portions of the brain an organic product. This is why pods can use Psi slights, just with difficulty. It can still work, but requires the transfer from a mechanical computer to the organic nervous system, and the organic-mechanical crossover isn't optimized for the transfer of information to use Psi slights.

Your reasoning seems sound.

Edit: Also, I just remembered that there is a psi drug which enables temporary psi abilities.

[erikun]

That can't be entirely true, though. Take the Fury biomorph, for instance. It actually creates a pack instinct in the occupying Ego, even where none would have existed before. Moreover, these cognitive changes are described as being genetic, not cybernetic.

So I guess the question now is "What portions of the brain are copied?"
Yuki answered this better than I did, but the answer is "All of it." The full brain pattern is read by nanobots and recorded for a backup, and an upload restructures the brain back into the pattern of the person.

Morphs can be created that produce a pack instinct (along with improved intelligence, and other traits) because people have the technology to konw what parts of the human brain govern pack instincts, and can modify them. Watts-MacLeod is still relatively new and modifies different portions of the brain, and so nobody has identified what exactly needs to change to allow Psi slights without the virus infection. Most likely, instilling pack instincts is probably just a chemical reaction anyways, making it easy to implement.


Also, I just remembered that there is a psi drug which enables temporary psi abilities.
Psi-Opener (the drug you mention) is specifically a strain of Watts-MacLeod that does not permanently alter the brain patterns. So it's using the same method to obtain Psi slights both ways, it's just that one method makes a permanent change.

Nobody understands why Psi-Opener grants Psi slights only temporarily, much like nobody knows why Watts-MacLeod does so permanently or what changes the Exsurgent does exactly that changes a person.


The TITANs, if they designed the Exsurgent Virus, probably already have the systems to hack ANY mind, organic or electronic. lets face it, if the TITANs made the exsurgent virus, or even got infected or just plain found it and started to design their own from it, they probably picked up Psi themselves along the way. (Jovians, other paranoid people? your efforts are probably useless, cause your wetware is probably just as hackable as anything else)

so assuming that the Watts-Macleod strain is designed well….it implies that the TITANs want humanity to have psi. perhaps as a tool to divide humanity against itself? probably something like that, intentionally organic only, while synths get hacking.

other wise its just an accidental offshoot of other exsurgent viruses, and its inability to affect synths of be wielded by synths is just an inherent limitation of the strain.
There are a lot of variations on the Exsurgent virus, and Watts-MacLeod just happens to be one that keeps the infected reasonably sane. Most of the others drive the infected insane or turn them into a mutated monster, from what I remember. (It's been awhile since I read through the whole book.) It is possible that the TITANs released the Exsurgent virus with the express intent of producing Psi slights in humanity, knowing that some humans would receive a strain that would not kill them, although given everything else on Earth it's kind of hard to assume too much charitable motivation on the part of the TITANs.

[Yuki Akuma]

Morphs like Furies probably have extra adrenal glands and other, specially-designed hormones to instill heightened pack instinct (because all humans have pack instinct, we're pack animals). Extra-smart morphs likely just have extra 'processing' brain matter, or super-efficient neurons or something.

Ego Bridges simply 'reprogram' neurons, they don't change the shape of the brain or anything. Extra bits like extra glands would be untouched.

[Vknight]

I'm sensing a lot of hostility. What have I done to offend you?

Why would you put just 20 points into a single skill?

Step 1: Declare Attack
Step 2: Declare Defense
Step 3: Apply Modifiers
Step 4: Make the Opposed Test
Step 5: Determine the Outcome
Step 6: Modify Armor
Step 7: Determine Damage
Step 8: Determine Wounds

Have you ever wondered why asyncs can't use their sleights with synthetic morphs?

I'm thinking something like World of Darkness.

Not hostility just, annoyance.

Why can't I?, I put 20 Points into perception, my Intuition is 15 so my score in Perception is 35%

Modifiers are all ready applied. Your treating outcome as its own thing when its solved by the roll of the Fray. You don't declare defense you Fray as an immediately you don't have to say your dodging
1) Its attack test +/- modifiers
2) Dodge test +/- modifiers
Tester wins?
Yes[Continue], No[Stop]
3) Armor
4) Damage and wounds. Wounds are not hard your morph has 40 then did the attack do 8 damage? You have a wound

Cause they need a biological body, notice how Synth has Cyberbrains not actual brains the ego needs a meat brain to make it work
That is kind of why. Oh right they take stress in a Synth morph because they can't handle not having access to part of their own psyche


World of Darkness?
So 1 paragraph of information on the skill and 1 paragraph of flavor on the skill
Skill Specializations
What its Used for
An example of success, failure, critical failure/success?

Cause Eclipse Phase has 3 out of 5 of those.
It doesn't have the waste of space that is the flavor text
And it doesn't have an example of failures/success because that is for the Gm to determine, based on the scenario in question; so its not needed



Actually, I had been thinking that simply introducing the Watts-McLeod strain of the exsurgent nanovirus would do the trick.

My point was that biomorphs must undergo some kind of physical change after exposure. No one appears to naturally have sleights available, though perhaps they're unlocked somehow. Additionally, Egos don't appear to be cognitively affected by being jammed into a foreign brain, unless such things are designed.

But going this far pokes at the deep, dark, and altogether icky issues locked away at the bottom of Eclipse Phase's heart: How does the mind-body dichotomy actually work? What exactly is resleeving, particularly where biomorphs are concerned?

Okay. So what's so special about organic matter?

No no it would not because strains of the exsurgent virus don't necessarily have multiple copies. Just because a biological form that makes you want to eat others faces does not mean a basilisk hack version exists.
To further go with this it notes it in the book it needs a biological brain & mind. Why AGI's cannot have PSI

Also think about that statement your suggesting a virus that effects cyberbrains giving them a thing similar to PSI? Or are you suggesting a specific version of the virus only for Cyberbrains.
Either way it wouldn't make sense as each virus was designed for a Alien reason.
My personal theory is that it's like a DMSO version of the exsurgent virus weakening you to the virus normally.
As such it explains lower trauma threshold, lower resistance. The PSI is just a secondary effect, and its not as powerful as the stuff that an Epsilon Psychic could/can do

No no they are not your making conjectures without providing voracity, to support your claim.
The cortical stack hold what you are. And releases that information into a mind the Wats Macleod effects that and stays with it. But when it needs to spread out and with a cyberbrain it cannot as it's based on the ego and biological functions why a Async reacts badly its the virus in them causing mental strain.
Naturally having sleights means nothing to the body/mind argument. Cause mentally we are not *something* the virus triggers that difference as side-effect making up for the difference by effecting the ego.

What is re-sleeving?... No we are not going to get philosophical about this leading into endless loops. When we talk about resleeving we have to talk about continuation of though etc. and that is just a way to avoid the actual discussion

Hmmm lets see. Organic matter is what we naturally associate with? AGI's cannot get the PSI trait.
So it probably has to deal with the same reason AGI's can't have it.
Mind says who can get this
The body says how it will effect you
It's the alienation of oneself & their own form

-

Pack animal stuff
We are naturally pack animals. Increase that tendency, by X. The brain is still what? Organic which is needed for the mental process of the Async's abilities

[Zavoniki]

wow, long thread title.

anyways, for some less extradiegetic reasoning from me:

The TITANs, if they designed the Exsurgent Virus, probably already have the systems to hack ANY mind, organic or electronic. lets face it, if the TITANs made the exsurgent virus, or even got infected or just plain found it and started to design their own from it, they probably picked up Psi themselves along the way. (Jovians, other paranoid people? your efforts are probably useless, cause your wetware is probably just as hackable as anything else)

so assuming that the Watts-Macleod strain is designed well….it implies that the TITANs want humanity to have psi. perhaps as a tool to divide humanity against itself? probably something like that, intentionally organic only, while synths get hacking.

other wise its just an accidental offshoot of other exsurgent viruses, and its inability to affect synths of be wielded by synths is just an inherent limitation of the strain.

The Exsurgent Virus(and by extension all of its strains) come from the ETI(see pg. 354 of the core book.). Not really sure I like that interpretation, but that's what the book says. The TITANS may have modified it, but the original strain came from the ETI.

[Vknight]

The Exsurgent Virus(and by extension all of its strains) come from the ETI(see pg. 354 of the core book.). Not really sure I like that interpretation, but that's what the book says. The TITANS may have modified it, but the original strain came from the ETI.

Except the book say you don't have to hold true to that.
The book notes none of whats in the back you have to follow and that what is their is simply the basic setup and you can twist it however you like.

I have an idea involving
The Factors being an off-shot created by the Titans or maybe being the end result of the Titans

[Grinner]

No no it would not because strains of the exsurgent virus don't necessarily have multiple copies. Just because a biological form that makes you want to eat others faces does not mean a basilisk hack version exists.
To further go with this it notes it in the book it needs a biological brain & mind.

So? All it needs is a single vector.


Also think about that statement your suggesting a virus that effects cyberbrains giving them a thing similar to PSI? Or are you suggesting a specific version of the virus only for Cyberbrains.

When did cyberbrains enter the discussion? Cyberbrains are essentially (non-Von Neumann) computers which become brain simulations, and they lack the components Erikun previously identified as being essential to psi.


No no they are not your making conjectures without providing voracity, to support your claim.

I think I'll go out on a limb here and assume you meant "veracity". I'll go further and suggest you really meant "evidence". Since you never actually specified what you were talking about, I'll have to go even further and assume you were talking about this paragraph:


My point was that biomorphs must undergo some kind of physical change after exposure. No one appears to naturally have sleights available, though perhaps they're unlocked somehow. Additionally, Egos don't appear to be cognitively affected by being jammed into a foreign brain, unless such things are designed.

So, evidence.


Transhumans cannot use psi without infection by the exsurgent virus, so they are not naturally capable of using it.
Ego bridges work by restructuring brains.
The ability to use psi stays with the Ego, which is the state of the brain, apparently. Ergo, the brain must be changed for infection to occur.



The cortical stack hold what you are. And releases that information into a mind the Wats Macleod effects that and stays with it. But when it needs to spread out and with a cyberbrain it cannot as it's based on the ego and biological functions why a Async reacts badly its the virus in them causing mental strain.

As far as the morph is concerned, the cortical stack is a one-way, write-only street. It records the state of the brain using a network of nanobots, and it's contents can be copied into a new morph.

As written, it's a portable backup device, not a command and control center.


What is re-sleeving?... No we are not going to get philosophical about this leading into endless loops. When we talk about resleeving we have to talk about continuation of though etc. and that is just a way to avoid the actual discussion

Which then goes straight back into the mind-body dichotomy issue. How do you expect to discuss that without addressing the underlying problem?

Is consciousness and identity just a matter of the particular configuration of the mass of proteins called the brain? Is that transhumanity's great answer to death? A series of clones? How does that preserve the soul, the self? If the self is not preserved, then are they really immortal? Or are they really just leaving an immortal legacy?

[Zavoniki]

Except the book say you don't have to hold true to that.
The book notes none of whats in the back you have to follow and that what is their is simply the basic setup and you can twist it however you like.

I have an idea involving
The Factors being an off-shot created by the Titans or maybe being the end result of the Titans

So then why do the TITANS go insane? You can change parts of any setting around, but the exsurgent virus is why the Fall happens. If you change that, then it's not Eclipse Phase. I'm running an Eclipse Phase campaign and I don't see how the universe exists the way it does if the TITANS make the exsurgent virus, and there isn't something similar that replaces it(in which case why have two copies of the same thing) for two reasons:

1. Why do the TITANS go insane/fight eachother/Fall? If they wanted to kill humanity why didn't they finish the job. If they wanted to leave, why did they trash Earth, and why do they want to leave? In general what's going on. Even without the exsurgent virus there needs to be some external force so that what happens makes sense. In my mind the FALL is the TITANS fighting their infected selves/eachother and trying to find the ETI. All the casualties are just a byproduct of that conflict.

2. Why does the Watts-Mcleod Strain exist? I can see why it could have been made by TITANS kinda, but its still a bit of a stretch. The TITANS to me seem to be unconcerned with humanity so why would they introduce something that effects only humanity. It doesn't make sense.

[Vknight]

So then why do the TITANS go insane? You can change parts of any setting around, but the exsurgent virus is why the Fall happens. If you change that, then it's not Eclipse Phase. I'm running an Eclipse Phase campaign and I don't see how the universe exists the way it does if the TITANS make the exsurgent virus, and there isn't something similar that replaces it(in which case why have two copies of the same thing) for two reasons:

1. Why do the TITANS go insane/fight eachother/Fall? If they wanted to kill humanity why didn't they finish the job. If they wanted to leave, why did they trash Earth, and why do they want to leave? In general what's going on. Even without the exsurgent virus there needs to be some external force so that what happens makes sense. In my mind the FALL is the TITANS fighting their infected selves/eachother and trying to find the ETI. All the casualties are just a byproduct of that conflict.

2. Why does the Watts-Mcleod Strain exist? I can see why it could have been made by TITANS kinda, but its still a bit of a stretch. The TITANS to me seem to be unconcerned with humanity so why would they introduce something that effects only humanity. It doesn't make sense.

The Exsrugent Virus was made by the Titans and infected them?
The Exsurgent Virus did not make them go crazy they went crazy and made the Exsurgent Virus?
They grew to quickly and a program designed to act as a blanacing facot mixed creating the Exsurgent Virus so they went crazy?
A Bio-conservative made a virus to destroy Seed AI's cause that's what they do. And the virus was adapted by on Titan into the Exsurgent Virus as the AI tried to reprogram it to be more effective...
The Exsurgent Virus must exist but it does not need to have been built by any ancient aliens, as these examples show.
The Virus simply has to come about, or be found.

Why did they leave is a question in the book that they don't answer.
-They grew to not care.
-They gathered enough minds. Why minds? Transhumanity 2.0, Save Humanity from itself?, Eat them with some Fava Beans?
-They only wanted to destroy 80% minimum of Transhumanity
- They wanted to make Transhumanity go out and explore the stars more
- They needed to get Tranhumanity into the Pandora Gates they built
- They want Transhumanity to develop and spread

They didn't trash earth, the book firmly establishes that Trans-humanity trashed earth trying to kill the Titans.

Whats going on? External force?
Why do the Titans need to be created by an external force outside of Transhumanity itself, karmic reaction.
The Titans can be created by ETI, Transhumanity messing up, the Titans growing in one direction

The Titans could have been doing all of that. But the important thing is the book says, the Fall happened it was the war between Trans-humanity and the Titans. Did we start it? Did they start it? Were we in World War 3's beginning days and the Titans got involved? Do/Did the Titans fight each other? Did the Promethean defeat them completely or just force a retreat/cease fire
They could be fighting each other & the Promethean's
Searching for the ETI, maybe in Transhumanity?
Everything in the book is left vague because it is up to the gamemaster so you can't metagame.

Whelp you must keep in mind Watt's Macleod is one of many Exsurgent Virus variants
Maybe the Titans didn't make it. Maybe the ETI did for the biological side of any race to give them Epsilon sleights
Maybe the Titans made it because they still had some programming things from back when they served Transhumanity
Maybe it is just the Exsurgent virus made to lower your tolerance for the virus/make it harder to use a mix of biological and technology with your body.
All we know for certain is that it was made for biological forms/bodies