How much does a person play their character?

[shortee222]

The other night I was DMing a session for some friends of mine, as we do every Wednesday. They infiltrated the lair of a red dragon and one of the entrances was guarded by an old pub filled with gang members that were fanatics of the dragon. They were silencing a coin in order to keep themselves from being heard, as their rogue did all the stealthy stuff. When combat finally ensued, they set up their formation while casting grease and confusion on an area in order to funnel the gang members. A friend of mine claimed that his character would have immediately known to throw the coin away in order to allow his companions to cast spells and stuff.

The question I have is when do I punish the person because they did not play their character properly, or do I just assume that someone with a 22 intelligence would have known all of the appropriate things to do in order to accomplish his goal. In this situation I would side with the player, but later down the road. If they forget to do something, a 22 int would know to do it, but do I penalize them for forgetting?

[QuintonBeck]

I operate under the if all of you, go ahead and let the group help him think no way he can simulate such a high intelligence otherwise barring some outlier cases of genius players, didn't think of it I guess your character didn't either. I suppose if you saw the mistake coming you could slide the player a note cluing them in if you felt so inclined due to the number on their character sheet, but otherwise I'm sorry your character sheet has such a high number.

[awa]

i don't normal make a comment about this kinda stuff but something about that paragraph is really hard for me to follow.

[Crake]

If the players are trying to cast spells in their own silenced area, I'm sure that tossing the silenced coin would have been the first thing on their mind, since they're quite acutely aware of the effect. Players on the other hand might forget that the silence is in effect, since the players themselves aren't actually in a silenced area. I'd say that throwing the coin would have happened, otherwise the rest of their plan makes no sense.

[awa]

no you don't penalize them for not having a superhuman intellect. (although i normally have remembering all the important details in a tight spot be an aspect of wis rather then int but that's besides the point. ) In general if a player forgets something they obviously should know i remind them

always remember for the player this is a game he deals with likely no more then once a week for entertainment. for the character this is life or death,
The player may forget hes holding a coin of silence but the character can hear he still has it he cant forget about it. the player may have started sneaking hours ago at the start of the session the character likely started sneaking a few minutes ago.

[Pickford]

If the players are trying to cast spells in their own silenced area, I'm sure that tossing the silenced coin would have been the first thing on their mind, since they're quite acutely aware of the effect. Players on the other hand might forget that the silence is in effect, since the players themselves aren't actually in a silenced area. I'd say that throwing the coin would have happened, otherwise the rest of their plan makes no sense.

If they are in a silenced area, how did they make any plans at all? (Telepathically perhaps?...sign language?)

[shortee222]

In this specific case, I can agree with giving the player the benefit of the doubt. What I really want to know is, where does the GM draw the line? Where does the intelligence of the player come into play? I do not want to have the person's character play the game, I want them to. I am under the belief that the GM must challenge the person, not the character.

[Lafaellar]

I think this question is difficult to answer for us. It strongly depends on the party dynamic. In my group, players would most likely say "okay, I forgot it, my character did too".
Yes, the character has INT 22 which most likely is higher than the INT of the player (no offense, 22 is deep into genius level which less than 1% of population possess) but the player ono the other hand has the advantage of having more time and distance to think the situation trough. The character has about a second tops to decide what to do while the player may have a minute or more and he has knowledge about the game rules the character does not. This should be taken into consideration.

Personally I tend to say "bad luck then" except if the flaw is so big that it seriously endangers the party or is extremely obvious.

[prufock]

Descriptive narration! When the players, particularly the one holding the coin, are setting up formation, you make sure to include a note that "you spread out thus, your footfalls making no sound in your silenced aura." Or at least "remember that you're holding the silenced coin." Then he can act as he wishes, with all the information he has. If he then doesn't choose to throw the coin away until he realizes that the casters can't cast, that's his own fault.

Players forget. Guess what, so do genius characters. Sometimes props may be useful, ie if you're holding a silenced coin, actually hold a coin. And other players/characters can tell or motion to him to drop the coin. I don't mind a little metagaming like that.


Where does the intelligence of the player come into play?
In my opinion, smart people can still do stupid things. The intelligence of the character applies to spellcasting, skill points, skill checks, and languages, NOT the behaviour of the character - that part is up to the player.

[Segev]

It still comes down to ad hoc DC-setting, but you can call for Wis and Int checks to see if a character "would have known/remembered/realized" something if you're truly unsure.

[Psyren]

It's an honest mistake, I'd let them retroactively have tossed the coin, perhaps with an admonishment to be more explicit with their actions next time. This is one of those minor battles you don't need to fight as a DM, because in the future when they mess up like this in a more narratively serious way, you can point back and remind them how lenient you were all the other times.

Incidentally, his character's int score wouldn't have really mattered to me; even a sorcerer would know to fling the coin away.

[rexreg]

DM: "I will allow that you got rid of the coin this time. In the future, I will require you tell me you've tossed the coin."
If they use the coin tactic at a later date, as they they are Silenceing the coin, remind them of your previous ruling.

drive on...tempo of the game is maintained

[Fouredged Sword]

Yes, generally I follow the rule of 'the player can make a given mistake once'

After that, they need to remember. If there is something that would be immediately noticeable, then they get a reminder when they start to declare an action.

"I cast the spe.." DM interupts "You have a coin of silence" Player restarts "I toss the coin and cast the spell..."

Though you should note that silence is an emanation, and blocked by line of effect. I would suggest they hold their hands covering the top of the coin, so their feet are silenced and they can still talk and cast. Ether that or they just close their fists over the coin to cast and open it back up after their are done.

[ArcturusV]

I guess I'm crueler, I'd probably hose them with it. Nor would I let "I have a 22 Int!" sway me. As Intelligence doesn't really have anything to do with common sense. The scatterbrained professor or something is an archetype that exists. There's plenty of smart people who effectively have a low Wisdom and lack common sense or the ability to figure out simple solutions/problems ahead of time. Maybe if it was "I have a 25 Wisdom" or something on the guy holding the coin, I'd let that sway me. But it would have to be an individual thing. I mean they're silenced so it's not like the cleric who does have the high wisdom can go and shout out "Chuck the coin!" at the guy.

[killem2]

The other night I was DMing a session for some friends of mine, as we do every Wednesday. They infiltrated the lair of a red dragon and one of the entrances was guarded by an old pub filled with gang members that were fanatics of the dragon. They were silencing a coin in order to keep themselves from being heard, as their rogue did all the stealthy stuff. When combat finally ensued, they set up their formation while casting grease and confusion on an area in order to funnel the gang members. A friend of mine claimed that his character would have immediately known to throw the coin away in order to allow his companions to cast spells and stuff.

The question I have is when do I punish the person because they did not play their character properly, or do I just assume that someone with a 22 intelligence would have known all of the appropriate things to do in order to accomplish his goal. In this situation I would side with the player, but later down the road. If they forget to do something, a 22 int would know to do it, but do I penalize them for forgetting?



I would have made them wait a turn and be silenced. My rule is, if it didn't come out of your mouth to tell me, it didn't happen.

Hell even a, we're going to do sneak here, do this, do that and we'll be tossing this coin to cast and start combat. I'd be ok with that. If they said NOTHING it isn't an issue any more of if your character has 99 for every ability score, or not, that character depends on us, you, them, to be the controls behind the character.

I think you were fine. :smallamused: I mean after all, this is a role playing game! :)


Looking back on it, this is a strange situation, if they cast something, wouldn't they realize it didn't work and still be hidden from being silenced, and have just wasted a spell?

At some point the group has to be made aware that something has happened. At worst, perhaps a wasted spell, for them not saying they want to ditch the coin. I've not experienced this though, my player usually remember to do stuff like that, though their examples would be with lit up coins or coins with darkness.

[Segev]

Honestly, anybody who would say, "Oh, but you had a silence effect up when you cast those buff spells, so they didn't work," or who would even not say, "um, you have silence up; are you sure you want to cast?" is being a jerk. They're not enforcing any kind of sense, common or otherwise; they're exploiting the fact that the players do not actually share their characters' senses.

It would be equally uncool to fail to mention that their characters haven't eaten in two days until you decide to all of a sudden hit them with penalties, when they had plenty of opportunity to eat and just hadn't said "we stop for lunch." The characters would feel hunger long before serious penalties set in, but the players might not even think about it.

[killem2]

Honestly, anybody who would say, "Oh, but you had a silence effect up when you cast those buff spells, so they didn't work," or who would even not say, "um, you have silence up; are you sure you want to cast?" is being a jerk. They're not enforcing any kind of sense, common or otherwise; they're exploiting the fact that the players do not actually share their characters' senses.

It would be equally uncool to fail to mention that their characters haven't eaten in two days until you decide to all of a sudden hit them with penalties, when they had plenty of opportunity to eat and just hadn't said "we stop for lunch." The characters would feel hunger long before serious penalties set in, but the players might not even think about it.

Yup, I was just about to edit this into my post too, once they said they were gonig to cast something, you as the dm would have to tell them, you can't and why. Unless of course you are able to attempt a spell even if you know it will fail.

What's the rules on that? :smallconfused:

[Unusual Muse]

Sometimes in the heat of battle even geniuses get distracted by the chaos. I'd have the player roll an INT check, probably with a fairly low DC, and if they failed they'd attempt to cast the spell in the silence and lose the spell.