Question about Riding Dog / Ranger Companion

[Wander]

I just reached level 4 on my ranger and had a couple questions about the riding dog and ranger companions in general.

Here's the page for the riding dog : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm

For the dog's attack, it shows : Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)

So I'm guessing this means the dog gets a +3 to it's attack roll, and the 1d6+3 is it's damage roll? Are those two numbers already taking its strength bonus into account, or is that before? The wolf only shows a 1d6+1 for the damage, however it has the same bonuses as well as a weapon focus feat.

I'm just wondering if anyone can clarify for me what exactly the riding dogs attack and damage rolls should be, before taking into account it's strength bonus.

Same thing with it's hit die, is the 2d8+4 including the constitution bonus? I was also wondering about the bab and the grapple numbers. What is the +1 / +3? Does that mean it gets +1 bab per level? And what does the grapple mean? Does the Riding dog gain feats just like any character would, and can I just choose any feat I normally could?

Sorry for all the questions and if some of them are obvious. I'm in my first campaign right now playing a ranger, but the rest of my group is pretty clueless about animal companions.

[SolioFebalas]

I was also wondering about the bab and the grapple numbers. What is the +1 / +3? Does that mean it gets +1 bab per level? And what does the grapple mean? Does the Riding dog gain feats just like any character would, and can I just choose any feat I normally could?

Riding dog is an animal, so it takes skill, feats and BAB like animal.

Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).
Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves).
Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.


Same thing with it's hit die, is the 2d8+4 including the constitution bonus?

Yea, 2d8 it's HD and +4 it's a (15 (+2) con * 2 HD)


So I'm guessing this means the dog gets a +3 to it's attack roll, and the 1d6+3 is it's damage roll? Are those two numbers already taking its strength bonus into account, or is that before? The wolf only shows a 1d6+1 for the damage, however it has the same bonuses as well as a weapon focus feat.

Yes, they already taken.

Wolf has Bite +3 [+1 BAB, +1 Weapon focus, +1 (13 Str)] melee (1d6+1 (13 Str))


And i suggest you train your animal with Warbeast Template (http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/warbeast.shtml):smallsmile:

[jaydubs]

Solio mostly covered it.

In addition, the riding dog does +3 damage vs the wolf's +1 because a single natural attack, like a bite, has its strength damage bonus calculated like a two-handed weapon.

So a riding dog's 15 strength gives +2 x 1.5 = +3.

[Wander]

Thanks for clearing some of that up, I still don't get a few things though.


"Yea, 2d8 it's HD and +4 it's a (15 (+2) con * 2 HD)
I don't really understand this. His base hit points are 2d8, so wouldn't it just be a +2? Why do you multiply the 2 to make it 4?


Good Fortitude and Reflex saves (certain animals have different good saves).
How do I figure out his save progression? Do I just go by the same as the ranger?


Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.
What does the per Hit Die mean? I assume since it's intelligence is so low I would just get 1 skill per level to simplify it?

I had one last question about the Hit Die and it's constitution. My riding dog will be starting at level 2 since I'm a level 4 ranger. It has 18 con total, so what would the HP rolls be? Would I include that bonus for first level, or would I just add that to the second roll? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get it sorted out before my next session.

[SolioFebalas]

I don't really understand this. His base hit points are 2d8, so wouldn't it just be a +2? Why do you multiply the 2 to make it 4?

Con bonus applied for each HD.
So, It's analog of 2nd level, you can assume that he has a two levels in animal, 1d8 1st and another 1d8 second, so you apply con for both.


How do figure out his save progression? Do I just go by the same as the ranger?

Count his HD as levels, and yes he has saves like 2nd level ranger.


What does the per Hit Die mean? I assume since it's intelligence is so low I would just get 1 skill per level to simplify it?

Yes, you take (1*4)=4 skill points for first HD, and another 1 for all other, so at 2 HD (2d8) there are 5 skill points.


I had one last question about the Hit Die and it's constitution. My riding dog will be starting at level 2 since I'm a level 4 ranger. It has 18 con total, so what would the HP rolls be? Would I include that bonus for first level, or would I just add that to the second roll? Sorry for all the questions, I just want to get it sorted out before my next session.

I'm not sure why you dog have 18 con, but yes increasing con applies to all HD, starting from first. So with 18 con, his HP would be like 2d8 + 8 (18 Con (+4) x 2 HD)

[Wander]

Thanks, I'm pretty sure I understand the hit die thing now. The reason I got the 18 con is that I took the warbeast template, since the dog I have is already trained for war I assumed I could do that? Also, the template says it gets a +1 to base hit die. Does this mean I can now treat my dog as level 3, since he has a HD of 3 ( Half my level +1 )?

One thing I'm still unsure of is the base attack bonus.


Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric).


What exactly does this mean? Is his total hit dice 3, or is it 24? Would I take 3/4 of that number, then find the equivalent cleric level and use that as his bab?

For skills it lists : Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*

Are these skills before the 5 points I get for my levels? The riding dog gets a +4 racial bonus to jumping, so it just seemed like an extremely high number.

One last thing I was wondering about was feats. Do I get to pick a level 1 feat for my riding dog, or do I have to wait until level 3?

[SolioFebalas]

Warbeast Riding Dog:
HP: 3d8+12
Speed: 50ft.
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+6)
Combative Mount (Ex): A rider on a trained warbeast mount gets a +2 circumstance bonus on all Ride checks. A trained warbeast is proficient with light, medium, and heavy armor. A vermin warbeast, being mindless and therefore untrainable, cannot have this ability.
Saves: As 3rd level ranger.
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: +1 Listen and +1 Spot checks.



What exactly does this mean? Is his total hit dice 3, or is it 24? Would I take 3/4 of that number, then find the equivalent cleric level and use that as his bab?

Count dog as 3 level (3 HD) cleric to determine Base Attack Bonus (so 3 level cleric has +2 BAB ).
[3/4 means that for 20 levels he get maximum of +15 BAB, like 1/2 (for Wizard) +10 BAB for 20 levels or full BAB (for Fighter) = +20 BAB for 20 levels.]


For skills it lists : Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*

Are these skills before the 5 points I get for my levels? The riding dog gets a +4 racial bonus to jumping, so it just seemed like an extremely high number.

Yes it's before, and with past abilities (Before Warbeast Template increased them)

Now it looks like: Jump +10 , Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +5, Survival +2* and you still have 6 skill point for 3HD.


One last thing I was wondering about was feats. Do I get to pick a level 1 feat for my riding dog, or do I have to wait until level 3?

Unfortunately, i'am not sure if Alertness and Track counts as bonus feats or 1st level feats. But i think that Alertness is a 1st level feat and Track is a bonus feat, so you can choose onother one for 3rd HD and so on. But yet, i'am not sure.

[Wander]

Thanks a lot! Makes a lot more sense now, guess I was completely off on what 3/4 meant. My sheet turned out more or less the same as what you laid out, so I guess I was on the right track.

[SolioFebalas]

No problem, we all started with purely understanding.

[Feytalist]

Now it looks like: Jump +10 , Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +5, Survival +2* and you still have 6 skill point for 3HD.



Unfortunately, i'am not sure if Alertness and Track counts as bonus feats or 1st level feats. But i think that Alertness is a 1st level feat and Track is a bonus feat, so you can choose onother one for 3rd HD and so on. But yet, i'am not sure.

That's not quite true. A monster's statblock already includes all skill points and feats for level, as well as racial, feat and other bonuses. And a monster gets bonus feats only if the feats are actually marked as bonus feats.

So, the skills listed include skill points, ability modifiers, racial bonuses and bonuses from fears. And the two feats listed is the one for first level, and one bonus feat (clearly marked as such with a superscript B).

Now, if you were to advance the monster's HD, such as from the animal companion tables, only then are you allowed to choose the additional skill points and extra feats.

[Wander]

Hmm, so would what would my skill points be before I added the six from leveling up?

I'm guessing I would use this then? Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*

Also, I'm assuming these are before the racial bonus. So Jump would actually be a 12 for example?

[Talya]

Depending what level you think the campaign will reach, natural bond is worth taking at 6, for an instant 4 hit dice improvement of your companion.

[Feytalist]

Hmm, so would what would my skill points be before I added the six from leveling up?

I'm guessing I would use this then? Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*

Also, I'm assuming these are before the racial bonus. So Jump would actually be a 12 for example?

Nope. Like I mentioned, the stat block already includes everything.

Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3 and Survival +1 (+5 for tracking by scent) are the bonuses you use for skill checks. Nothing adds to that. You don't get to spend skill points. They've already been spent.

[SolioFebalas]

Hmm, so would what would my skill points be before I added the six from leveling up?

I'm guessing I would use this then? Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3, Survival +1*

Also, I'm assuming these are before the racial bonus. So Jump would actually be a 12 for example?

No, what i wrote was stats with only increased abilities, Feytalist pointed that you wouldn't get skill for first 2 HD, so you have only 1 skill point after warbeast template increased animal HD.

[SolioFebalas]

Nope. Like I mentioned, the stat block already includes everything.

Jump +8, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +3 and Survival +1 (+5 for tracking by scent) are the bonuses you use for skill checks. Nothing adds to that. You don't get to spend skill points. They've already been spent.

But he applied Warbeast Template which gave to animal +3 Str (rised jump and swim) +3 Con +2 Wis (rised listen, spot, survival) and plus another HD (gave 1 skill point and feat as 3rd HD). Am I wrong ?

[Feytalist]

But he applied Warbeast Template which gave to animal +3 Str (rised jump and swim) +3 Con +2 Wis (rised listen, spot, survival) and plus another HD (gave 1 skill point and feat as 3rd HD). Am I wrong ?

Ah, I missed that. Yeah, for that extra HD you get 1 skill point and a feat for 3rd level to play with. And for the creature's new BAB and skills, looking at class progression is a good option. So, a 3HD animal would have the BAB of a 3rd level druid, and the saves of a 3rd level ranger.

So, just to be clear, your new warbeast riding dog's total skill bonuses would be Jump +10, Listen +7, Spot +7, Swim +5 and Survival +2 (+6 for tracking by scent); plus you get to add 1 skill point (for the extra HD) to any of those skills.

[SolioFebalas]

Quod Erat Demonstrandum :smallbiggrin:

[Khedrac]

Check with your DM about the Warbest Template. Technically any template makes an animal ineligible to be an Animal Companion (which are "normal" animals prior to companion modifications). Also "trained for combat" is quite clearly defined in the PHB (it's a set of animal handling commands) and bears no relation to the warbeast template.

[jaydubs]

Check with your DM about the Warbest Template. Technically any template makes an animal ineligible to be an Animal Companion (which are "normal" animals prior to companion modifications).

"A 1st-level druid’s companion is completely typical for its kind except as noted below." While "animal companions must be normal except for companion modifications" is a reasonable interpretation, there is quite a bit of wiggle room.

You could argue that it simply means freshly summoned animal companions must be completely typical. Or if you want to read it literally, completely typical only applies to level 1 druids. And since rangers start with an effective druid level of 2 in regards to animal companions, you can either start training immediately or outright summon a warbeast depending on which interpretation you choose.

Still, I agree with Khedrac on "check with your DM," though I think it's less "I need to break the rules" as "the rules are open to debate."

If there's official word somewhere that irons out this ambiguity, please let me know. I vastly prefer clear rules given the choice.