How can Soon not have known the location of Girard's Gate?

[Diadem]

We know that Draketooth lied to Soon about the location of his gate. As far as I know we don't know if Draketooth also lied to the others (except Serini), or if any of the others also lied about their gate's location. But we know that Draketooth at least lied to Soon.

What I don't get is, how?

Soon was the leader and founder of the Order of the Scribble. He discovered the first rift, together with Lirian, and then traveled the world finding those other rifts, and eventually building gates around them. So Soon must have visited every rift at least once, possibly multiple times. How is it possible that he didn't know the location of the rifts?

It's possible that he never wrote their exact location down. That seems rather sloppy, given that he was the party leader and how important the rifts were, but I suppose it's possible. But surely he should have remembered their approximate location? There are only 5 rifts, and finding them was the entire purpose of the Order of the Scribble, so finding one is not the kind of thing you forget anytime soon.

So after Girard gave him a location hundreds of miles away from the actual rift, surely he should have noticed this?

[factotum]

That was explained quite clearly--Girard was the only member of the Scribble who had any tracking ability, and he was doing all the mapping. Soon, Epic paladin as he may have been, simply didn't have that knowledge and thus had no idea the coordinates he'd been given were false. You also have to bear in mind that Soon, being Lawful Good, really didn't expect the sort of deception Girard pulled on him--see also the "shell game" Redcloak performed with the Xykon "clones" at Azure City; Roy, Durkon and Hinjo (all LG) never suspected that *none* of the attacking Xykons was the real one, whereas the Chaotic Good Haley saw through it immediately.

[Solse]

EDIT: A ninja came and sliced my post in half.

This doesn't answer all of your question, but Soon and the others made a pact not to check on anybody's gates but their own. This means that instead of visiting X times, Soon visited X - 4 or something times.
Still, this is an interesting question. Who knows -- it may be a really important plot point later on.

[Diadem]

That was explained quite clearly--Girard was the only member of the Scribble who had any tracking ability, and he was doing all the mapping. Soon, Epic paladin as he may have been, simply didn't have that knowledge and thus had no idea the coordinates he'd been given were false. You also have to bear in mind that Soon, being Lawful Good, really didn't expect the sort of deception Girard pulled on him--see also the "shell game" Redcloak performed with the Xykon "clones" at Azure City; Roy, Durkon and Hinjo (all LG) never suspected that *none* of the attacking Xykons was the real one, whereas the Chaotic Good Haley saw through it immediately.
Girard doing the mapping, and Soon not being paranoid enough to suspect any deception, does explain why he never bothered to write down the coordinates himself. But Soon still should have known the approximate location of the gate from memory, and the location Girard gave him is hundreds of miles away. It just doesn't compute that Soon wouldn't have noticed such a huge discrepancy.

Also, the falling out seems to have occurred near the end, after they had already found all the gates. It seems that Girard had no real reason to lie to Soon before that. But they traveled for many years before that, surely they made backup copies of the locations? Surely Soon must have looked at their map on occasion. He may not have been a ranger, but you don't travel the world for years without picking up some basic skills.

But that's a secondary argument. The main issue I have is that Soon must have visited Girard's rift during their original travels.

edit: fixed some typos.

[KillianHawkeye]

Girard doing the mapping, and Soon not being paranoid enough to suspect any deception, does explain why he never bothered to write down the coordinates himself. But Soon still should have known the approximate location of the gate from memory, and the location Girard gave him is hundreds of miles away. It just doesn't compute that Soon wouldn't have noticed such a huge discrepancy.

It's not a discrepancy at all if Soon, lacking knowledge of geography, has no idea what the coordinates mean.

Think about your own home town. Do you know the exact latitude and longitude? Most people have no clue. So if I told you that the coordinates for your home were 128 degrees West by 200 degrees North, when they are in fact 135 degrees West by 192 degrees North, you would be none the wiser unless you had pretty decent knowledge of geography. And given that Girard's gate is located in the desert with no distinguishing features or landmarks, it is impossible for it to be found simply by remembering the landscape.

So no, Soon's inability to recognize the coordinates as false simply by having been to the real location once is not a stretch AT ALL. It is, in fact, completely 100% believable.

[Chantelune]

Girard doing the mapping, and Soon not being paranoid enough to suspect any deception, does explain why he never bothered to write down the coordinates himself. But Soon still should have known the approximate location of the gate from memory, and the location Girard gave him is hundreds of miles away. It just doesn't compute that Soon wouldn't have noticed such a huge discrepancy.

Also, the falling out seems to have occurred near the end, after they had already found all the gates. It seems that Girard had no real reason to lie to Soon before that. But they traveled for many years before that, surely they made backup copies of the locations? Surely Soon must have looked at their map on occasion. He may not have been a ranger, but you don't travel the world for years without picking up some basic skills.

But that's a secondary argument. The main issue I have is that Soon must have visited Girard's rift during their original travels.

edit: fixed some typos.


Uh, giant ass desert covering most of an entire continent ? How do you tell appart one huge pile of sand from another ? Especially on a continent that seems well known for its frequent changes in realms and borders ? Soon or anyone else could come to any part of it and can't be sure if its the right place or not. Missing rocks and stuff can be caused by sandstorm, warfare, anything else including the giant sand worm. Without tracking abilities and the correct tools, good luck knowing you're there.

Even if Girard had no reason to lie before the fallout, he had no reason to keep the rest of the party updated on the tracking details that they wouldn't understand anyway. And at the time, Soon had no reason to distrust Girard either and suspect that he might give him false coordinate to the end. Even after the fallout, as Soon gave his word, as a paladin, he had no reason to think that Girard would think he might break his vow. And they might have more pressing matters than doing back-up of the maps, that it seems only Girard was able to understand anyway. As for looking at maps, even if he saw a X marking the spot. Well, giant ass desert comes to mind again.

[Xelbiuj]

If Soon doesn't know anything about cartography, why would he know whether any set of random coordinates are anywhere near a location that he could probably find by memory?

I could find my way around the U.S, been all over, that doesn't mean if you . . .

Just got a good idea, here's an example.

37.7750° N, 122.4167° W

Without looking it up, where are those to?
Grats, if you're from San Fran, you're as bad as Soon.
Quick, what's are some coordinates in your city? Oh, that's what I thought. You don't know.

[Grey Watcher]

I'm gonna agree with the consesus thus far: without specific training in geography and navigation most people navigate using landmarks. Without landmarks (like topographical details in the Redmountain Hills or certain distinctive trees in Lirian's Woods), Soon simply remembers that Girard's Gate is "somewhere in the desert". At best, he might realize, as he got close to the false coordinates, that the mountains in the distance don't look quite right, but even then, the damage is done, and Soon's hypothetical expedition has wasted time and resources wandering in the desert pursuing an untamed ornithoid without cause.

[Wou]

TBH "Windy Canyon" is a pretty specific location, and not some random point at the desert.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

TBH "Windy Canyon" is a pretty specific location, and not some random point at the desert.

The Windy Canyon, however, is itself in some random point in the desert. If it had been instead, "In the middle of the Sahara, a mile south of the Windy Oasis", and then 20 years later, you disembark in Casablanca, would you be able to find the Oasis?

The place is a desert. The dunes shift. The only way to know where you are is by looking at the stars (or GPS). Soon trusted his companions to be able to find the place again, because he never learnt to tell his position from the stars.

Grey Wolf

[Grey Watcher]

TBH "Windy Canyon" is a pretty specific location, and not some random point at the desert.

I have a crackpot theory that the Draketooth Clan somehow built the canyon to address this very point. :-P

[Morquard]

I think the "Windy Canyon" is so windy because of epic level spells cast by Girard to make it that windy for the last 60-odd years, to prevent flying. Or maybe just a permanent Control Weather spell or something.

So back then the canyon was just a canyon.

People don't remember the names of countries 2 or 3 years ago, how'd they remember if a canyon was always that windy?

[Wou]

Changing the place into Windy Canyon by Girards crew makes sense. Something moderately unpleasant so nobody wants to venture there or stay for long but without going overboard with something like "Bloody Valley of Painful Death" which would attract adventurers by dozens.

[littlebum2002]

I've been to Denver, Colorado. I can point to it on a map. But if you gave me a blank map of the U.S., with no state borders, and no topographical marks, and put a dot somewhere in the general West Central area of the country, it could be a thousand miles away from Denver and I would have no idea.

[Shades of Gray]

Furthermore, he may have remembered it as "this spot of desert in the middle of the empire of mean tyrants" which was conquered and had its borders shifted by the subsequent Tuesday.

[Oko and Qailee]

Keep in mind Soon never went to the Windy canyon afterward.

He could have gotten the coordinates and been like "ok, so the Windy Canyon is there." As long as he never went to the actual location (which he never did), then the trick would always work, if he passed the coordinates to an ally (which he did) they wouldn't know the details of what the terrain around the gate looked like.

[NerdyKris]

I think a lot of the confusion comes from people who have never been in deserts. Not that I have. But that bit in Three Kings (I think?) where he explains what happens if you don't have a sextant and star map? Or in this day and age, a GPS? That's what actually happens. You have no points of reference except things like the North Star, which you'd need to be able to identify on sight. Which I'll bet you can't. If you pick the wrong star, and it's too close, your point of reference is shifting as the earth rotates.

You end up walking in a giant circle until you die.

Even if you know a location, you still have to be within sight of that location. And the furthest you can see, if this is the size of earth, is 20 miles, if it's tall enough. The planet curves. It's not like videogames where you can see from one end of the map to the other. So if something is hundreds of miles from the nearest landmark, you could be as close as 20 miles from it and still walk right by it without ever knowing.

If you don't have someone trained as a navigator, you're lost. But there's no reason not to trust your navigator or constantly check up on him. Soon trusted Girard, apparently far more than Girard trusted him.

[Gift Jeraff]

But it's not like the Windy Canyon is some obscure location. Tarquin didn't need to tell the OOTS where it was, he just said its name and they were like, "We're on it!" Indicating that random mappers in Sandsedge knew where it was.

The Draketooth Clan making the canyon magically windy in order to discourage people with flight spells seems to make sense.

[Bulldog Psion]

1. Immense desert with many very similar features spread across thousands of square miles.

2. Someone else doing the tracking.

3. Said someone else an epic level illusionist who may already have been messing with the perceptions of his team if he didn't trust them.

[Lord Raziere]

3. Said someone else an epic level illusionist who may already have been messing with the perceptions of his team if he didn't trust them.

…..I would like to say that I don't believe Girard would do that before Kraagor died, but somehow it wouldn't surprise me if he did. he is definitely not the trusting type. Sure they might've been less extreme in their views at some point, but isolation from one another only inflates and enhances whats already there...

[Synesthesy]

Other then the fact that Soon might not have written a map himself, Soon swore an Oath to not go to any gate but his. So Soon simply didn't control if the coordinates were right or wrong (and we know no paladin would do it).

[David Argall]

I'll suggest a bit of a compromise here. Soon would have some idea of the proper location, but he could have easily been completely fooled.
Given the numbers on a piece of paper, it would be dead easy to fool Soon at first. The paladins go to 100 West and 100 South without thinking. Now Soon would realize that something is wrong well before he got there, but he might well go all the way to the location before he realized the number was a fake.
But then what? What does he really know about the location? It's somewhat near a big city named after the current king [who has likely been replaced and the city renamed]. Not much help there. Does he remember "windy canyon"? Maybe, but we don't know that name was in use a generation or two back. And he may not have paid much attention to the name anyway. He was in this gods-forsaken-!@#$hole instead of that one. His job was to fight when they got there, not to remember the best-forgotten waste. So having much idea of where it was is not worth bothering about.
Then we have to remember that this is Girard's idea of Soon, which means he was likely way underestimating Soon's ability here. One reason for "Give the devil his due" is that someone we don't like is easily assumed to be inferior unless our noses are rubbed into it. So even if Soon would have been able to take a direct path there, Girard might well think that "that stupid paladin" would have no idea it was a fake location.
So this is not a point that strains our suspension of disbelief. A real Girard might have done the same thing.

[NerdyKris]

I think a lot of the issue is that people are assuming Girard's statements about Soon are correct. Readers have a tendency to view the last thing said about a character as a definitive factual statement, instead of the speaker's personal view. Because of Girard's rant, a lot of people assume that Soon was not a good person.


Girard assumed Soon was a backstabbing jerk who would turn on everyone. Clearly, he was wrong. Soon trusted Girard and his allies implicitely. In 80(?) years, no paladin ever went to Girard's gate. Soon kept his promise. He apparently had no reason whatsoever to assume Girard was lying to him. It was Girard who was paranoid to the extent that he gave the wrong coordinates to Soon. Girard betrayed Soon in this instance. Soon didn't expect betrayal, so he didn't double check the coordinates.

We still don't know what happened to Kraagor that upset Girard. But we can't assume that Girard's hatred is based any more on facts than we'd assume Ian's paranoia about Elan was an accurate statement about Elan's motivations. Especially when the evidence clearly shows that Soon kept his word, even into death.

[Porthos]

OK, let's look at it this way. Soon gets the coordinates. Let's say he has a generic map like the one was seen in 0698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html).

Do you see the feature called 'The Windy Canyons' there? With the two different ways 'Windy' could be pronounced?

Yeah. I didn't think so.

So let's say that Soon does indeed break his oath have a REALLY good reason to check up on Girard. He goes traipsing along the desert. One dune is much like the other. But when he gets there, it looks nothing like what he remembered. He turns to his colleagues and says:

"Are you sure these are the correct coordinates for Girard's Gate? I've never been here before. You couldn't have miswrote them?"

"No, Lord Soon, it is correct."

"This is really odd. Cast a Sending spell back to the Sapphire Guard back home and make sure...."

*ZZZZZAAPPPPPPPO*

Or something like that.

See when Soon gets there, he'll know something is up. But unless he has a super duper detailed map before hand, he won't. And if it wasn't called the Windy Canyons before hand (which is entirely possible given the timeframe) even that will put him out of luck.

Then he has to go find it the hard way, just like everyone else did.

[Deliverance]

Soon was the leader and founder of the Order of the Scribble. He discovered the first rift, together with Lirian, and then traveled the world finding those other rifts, and eventually building gates around them. So Soon must have visited every rift at least once, possibly multiple times. How is it possible that he didn't know the location of the rifts?

Paladins do not come with on-board GPS, that's why.

Your notion that because you have been somewhere you can write down its location ignores that for the vast majority of human history there was no such thing as humans knowing exact locations. If you couldn't describe a location in relation to something else nearby, you'd be in real trouble describing any location with any degree of exactitude, even with the best of will. Even when the means arrived to determine exact locations, few were skilled in their use. And navigation by landmarks is bad enough in a rocky desert. In a desert with sand dunes that continually rearrange the landscape? Forget about it.

In a fantasy world, remembering an unexceptional location in a huge desert and being able to find it without directions? Without the magical equivalent of GPS, I just do not see how it could be done.

[Fish]

So let's say that Soon does indeed break his oath have a REALLY good reason to check up on Girard. He goes traipsing along the desert. One dune is much like the other.
This exactly. It's a question of timing. Nobody is saying "Soon would not realize the deception until he was AT the coordinates." He probably would have noticed a few hundred yards away that the coordinates would not lead to a canyon. He may have noticed as far away as three miles (the approximate distance to the horizon, assuming Earth-like planetary dimensions). At some point, if Soon is approaching on foot, he would realize there was something wrong. Maybe he would have asked himself, "Gosh, I thought we left Sandsedge by the north road."

But what the OP asks is, "Why couldn't Soon tell the coordinates were bad, just by looking at them?" I think we have answered that.

Consider also: all the lovely logic we have assembled is based on the notion that Soon walked. He could have teleported -- using a wizard hireling, like the one Shojo had. Then, of course, he could go directly to that false location without ever approaching it. Instantly, boom, wrong place: trap.

[archon_huskie]

I happen to know that I live at about 88W and 42N. It's Chicago, IL.

Why do I know that, well I needed the Latitude to buy a star chart for Boy Scouts Astronomy Merit Badge, and the Longitude comes up often when going Geocaching . . .

In other words I have ranks in Knowledge: Geography

[Porthos]

This exactly. It's a question of timing. Nobody is saying "Soon would not realize the deception until he was AT the coordinates." He probably would have noticed a few hundred yards away that the coordinates would not lead to a canyon. He may have noticed as far away as three miles (the approximate distance to the horizon, assuming Earth-like planetary dimensions). At some point, if Soon is approaching on foot, he would realize there was something wrong.

There's also another consideration. As Soon is approaching what he thinks are the Gate coordinates, he looks around and doesn't see half-remembered landmarks.

He gets suspicious. But he doesn't immediately presume the coordinates are wrong for a good reason: We are dealing with a master illusionist.

Soon might presume that the identifying landmarks have been altered by said illusionist.

That being said, it should start ringing his alarm bells. But not enough to turn around and head back. If anything, it'll make him want to investigate this area more. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html) Just to see what is up and if he can glean some sort of clue as to what is really happening.

The lawful mindset at work. :smallwink:

[KillianHawkeye]

I happen to know that I live at about 88W and 42N. It's Chicago, IL.

Why do I know that, well I needed the Latitude to buy a star chart for Boy Scouts Astronomy Merit Badge, and the Longitude comes up often when going Geocaching . . .

In other words I have ranks in Knowledge: Geography

Yes, you are the exception that proves the rule.

[137beth]

Soon has no ranks in Knowledge (Geography), and he does not have tracking as a class feature.

Also, if you take Redcloak's insults as absolute fact for some reason, then Soon would also have 0 ranks in Knowledge (what the hell he's talking about).

[NerdyKris]

Yes, you are the exception that proves the rule.

Just an FYI, that's not what that phrase means. It's a legal term meaning that if you state an exception, then that implies the opposite is in effect at all other times.

For instance:

No parking between 9am and 5pm, implies that this is an exception to the normal rule that you can park there. Therefore, the statement of the exception proves that there is a rule in effect the other times.

It does not mean that having someone who doesn't fit a rule you made proves that the rule exists. That's just a regular exception.

[KillianHawkeye]

No, he proved the rule because he claimed to have ranks in Geography. The rule we have established is that you need ranks in Geography to know where coordinates lead.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Just an FYI, that's not what that phrase means. It's a legal term meaning that if you state an exception, then that implies the opposite is in effect at all other times.

Nope, sorry, I have to disagree: language has moved on. I could accept that it used to mean that (although I have heard otherwise), just like "literally" meant "to the letter" and "gay" meant "happy". These days, someone/something being "the exception that proves the rule" just means that the fact someone/something is remarked to be an exception only reinforces the existence of the rule in the first place.

Stephen Fry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY) expresses it best, I think.

Grey Wolf

[Snails]

If Soon doesn't know anything about cartography, why would he know whether any set of random coordinates are anywhere near a location that he could probably find by memory?

I could find my way around the U.S, been all over, that doesn't mean if you . . .

Just got a good idea, here's an example.

37.7750° N, 122.4167° W

Without looking it up, where are those to?
Grats, if you're from San Fran, you're as bad as Soon.
Quick, what's are some coordinates in your city? Oh, that's what I thought. You don't know.

This.

For all we know, Soon may have quickly recognized the problem if he actually got around to planning a return trip and pulled out a map. But the numbers on a piece of paper are not obviously wrong under a cursory inspection, unless you are a skilled cartographer. The Order of the Scribble had only one competent cartographer.

[Gnoman]

Just an FYI, that's not what that phrase means. It's a legal term meaning that if you state an exception, then that implies the opposite is in effect at all other times.

For instance:

No parking between 9am and 5pm, implies that this is an exception to the normal rule that you can park there. Therefore, the statement of the exception proves that there is a rule in effect the other times.

It does not mean that having someone who doesn't fit a rule you made proves that the rule exists. That's just a regular exception.

It actually is far, far older than that. It relies on an older meaning of "proves", which is "tests." In other words, the "exception that proves the rule" is the apparent exception that challenges the validity of a given rule, which you must therefore explain before the rule can be considered valid.

[Skarn]

In addition to what others have said, it's possible the gate had been moved (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html) to a more secure location, which renders any assumption of navigation by memory pointless.

[Fish]

It actually is far, far older than that. It relies on an older meaning of "proves", which is "tests." In other words, the "exception that proves the rule" is the apparent exception that challenges the validity of a given rule, which you must therefore explain before the rule can be considered valid.
If I recall the origin of the phrase, it was originally Cicero, and in Latin, but yes: the exception that tests, or against which is measured, the rule.

Sorry, Grey Wolf: in no construction does "the exception that proves the rule" make sense as "because you are immortal, it proves that all men are mortal, even though clearly you aren't." Proving the rule in that semantic sense is illogical. That there exists an exception to a statement does not, in fact, validate the statement; it invalidates it. "All eggs break. I know it to be true, because this egg didn't."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Sorry, Grey Wolf: in no construction does "the exception that proves the rule" make sense as "because you are immortal, it proves that all men are mortal, even though clearly you aren't." Proving the rule in that semantic sense is illogical. That there exists an exception to a statement does not, in fact, validate the statement; it invalidates it. "All eggs break. I know it to be true, because this egg didn't."

I didn't say I agree with the new definition. I certainly didn't claim that the new definition makes semantic sense or is even logical. But, just like "literally" meaning "figuratively" makes no semantic or logical sense, the fact remains that the modern meaning of "exception proves the rule" is closer to what Killian used, and not what Kris/you say it should.

Grey Wolf

[archon_huskie]

Nope, sorry, I have to disagree: language has moved on. I could accept that it used to mean that (although I have heard otherwise), just like "literally" meant "to the letter" and "gay" meant "happy". These days, someone/something being "the exception that proves the rule" just means that the fact someone/something is remarked to be an exception only reinforces the existence of the rule in the first place.

Grey Wolf

No. We have thoughts. And then we express those thoughts we assign a symbol, such as a word or a phrase in this case) to that thought. If one misuses a symbol and then says language has changed, the one is just covering an error.

When language does change, it is a slow process. Like how the Thorne and the Ampersand (&) were removed from the English Alphabet.
The has not become synonymous with "teh" just because a bunch of teens don't bother to proof their text message. And with Autocorrect on phones now, it likely won't ever happen.

So too with out original example. It retains it original meaning in the legal realm. But many outside that field use the phrase incorrectly. It does not matter how many use it incorrectly, or for how long they use it incorrectly. It does not change the fact that they are using the phrase incorrectly.

[Gnoman]

If I recall the origin of the phrase, it was originally Cicero, and in Latin, but yes: the exception that tests, or against which is measured, the rule.


Older even than I thought, then. I believed it to be no older than Shakespere.

[tomandtish]

This.

For all we know, Soon may have quickly recognized the problem if he actually got around to planning a return trip and pulled out a map. But the numbers on a piece of paper are not obviously wrong under a cursory inspection, unless you are a skilled cartographer. The Order of the Scribble had only one competent cartographer.

And to take this further, there’s nothing that says Soon couldn’t have taken the coordinates, headed towards them, said “This doesn’t look right”, back-tracked his original journey and found it on his own.

The problem we have here is that Soon is no longer involved. What was passed down wasn’t “From Dexter Bay go 50 miles due north. Turn west at the hill that looks like a bear. Go another 30 miles … etc.” What was passed down was “30 degrees north, 50 west… etc.”.

Soon apparently had no reason to think those numbers were wrong. He might have been able to recognize the inaccuracies if he was there, and then find the correct location anyway, but he’s not there. And our heroes don’t have anything but the coordinates to work from.

Gerard is thinking Soon would be fooled. But Gerard is also thinking Soon would violate his vow. There’s nothing to say that this was going to work against Soon. We just know that Gerard thinks it would have.

So in short, Snails is exactly right. This is actually a very weak effort by Gerard, and is much more likely to be effective well after Soon's death than it is against Soon himself.

[NerdyKris]

Well, I accidentally knocked this train off the rails.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So too with out original example. It retains it original meaning in the legal realm. But many outside that field use the phrase incorrectly. It does not matter how many use it incorrectly, or for how long they use it incorrectly. It does not change the fact that they are using the phrase incorrectly.

Again, I refer you to Stephen Fry's thoughts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY) on the matter. The modern meaning of the phrase "exception proves the rule" has been in use for over 30 years now, it has moved beyond "error" to being the primary meaning. Attempting to turn back the clock on it is exactly like pretending that "gay" cannot be used to refer to homosexuals because it should mean "happy".

Grey Wolf

[Snails]

These days, someone/something being "the exception that proves the rule" just means that the fact someone/something is remarked to be an exception only reinforces the existence of the rule in the first place.

I do not see that as being far off from the traditional legal meaning. Yes, it is a figurative usage, but it captures much of the essence of the original logic.

The figurative usage I dislike is when "the exception that proves the rule" is used as a sloppy argument for summarily throwing out contrary evidence.

But I am sure these metaphor abusers are just a few bad apples, so we need not worry, right?

[Snails]

Gerard is thinking Soon would be fooled. But Gerard is also thinking Soon would violate his vow. There’s nothing to say that this was going to work against Soon. We just know that Gerard thinks it would have.

Right. While this is circumstantial evidence that weakly supports the gist of the OP's argument, Girard's guess about Soon's degree of competence here is not actual proof of any meaningful error on Soon's part -- Girard's track record when guessing about Soon is not strong.

[Fish]

...the fact remains that the modern meaning of "exception proves the rule" is closer to what Killian used, and not what Kris/you say it should be.
The modern meaning is to treat it as an aphorism or a bit of folk wisdom (such as "red sky at morning, sailors take warning" or "look before you leap"). However, it fails at this, because it makes no sense at all, even on its own merits, Cicero notwithstanding.

I take no issue with the corruption of "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" or "music has charms to soothe the savage beast" because they are fairly close to the original intention of the author. Heck, I will even put up with "there's something fishy in Denmark." But this new "meaning" is no meaning at all, a logical paradox that suggests the speaker learned the phrase from someone who also didn't know it.

[Snails]

KillianHawkeye's logic is correct to the original meaning, if we so happen to believe that "I needed the Latitude to buy a star chart for Boy Scouts Astronomy Merit Badge" and similar is outside the scope of the norm. Relevant experience outside the scope of the norm is an "exception", and evidence of earned ranks in Geography. From context, the tale implies that if he were to have lacked boyscouting experience, the speaker would likely be clueless on the topic as well.

37 degrees sounds right for my latitude. But I did the spherical trigonometry to plot an asteroid location from an observation point a couple hundred miles away, when I was a teenager. I have ranks in Geography, for this and other reasons.

[Amphiox]

Having traveled with the rest of his team to the location of Girard's Gate to secure the rift in the first place, Soon should certainly have a general idea of where it is. But just because one has a general idea of where it is does not mean that one can direct someone else to exactly where it is, which is what the point of coordinates is for.

Also, let us not forget the nature of the terrain around Girard's Gate and Rift. It's in the middle of a giant desert, surrounded by labyrinthine valleys around which the winds are so chaotic that you can't even safely fly in the area with flight spells.

The Scribblers probably spent days wandering around in that forsaken desert in their original attempt to find that rift. They may have spent large portions of that time completely lost, completely disoriented, and completely turned around. By the time they actually found the rift, only Girard, with ranks in mapmaking and tracking, had the ability to retrace their steps exactly and figure out exactly where they were.

The fake coordinates Girard gave Soon were also close enough to fool Soon. They were in the desert, in the general vicinity of where Soon would have remembered finding the gate. Soon would have had no reason to suspect trickery of that magnitude (ok, he had reason, but as a paladin it was not a reason he would have noticed).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The modern meaning is to treat it as an aphorism or a bit of folk wisdom (such as "red sky at morning, sailors take warning" or "look before you leap"). However, it fails at this, because it makes no sense at all, even on its own merits, Cicero notwithstanding.

Don't use it in its modern meaning, then. But I draw the line at you telling someone else that their usage is "wrong", because it is patently untrue. I dislike the modern usage of "literally" meaning "figuratively", but I don't complain when others use it, because I have accepted that currently, in the English language, "literally" is its own antonym. Killian used the modern meaning correctly, and you complaining about it, or telling us that 2000 years ago it meant something else does not change that, today, it means what it means: that known exceptions strengthens the original rule. Don't put a spoon in your eye over it.

Grey Wolf

[Tock Zipporah]

Paladins do not come with on-board GPS, that's why.

I think no one has ever spoken that exact sentence in the history of civilization, so bonus points there. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html)

[TDG]

Soon went somewhere in a desert with ever changing sand dunes with an epic illusionist. He trusted his party member, who was far more qualified than he, to accurately record and convey the location so that he wouldn't have to do so as well.

Hypothetically if he then came back and saw that the location wasn't the same as he remembered, I don't think his immediate thought would be "well damn, I must have been lied to and am a fool for trusting my team", but rather "Oh right, this is an ever changing desert and there is an epic illusionist protecting the area"

Personally, I don't think "windy canyon" were ever the words used to describe the location in the Scribble days. If so, Soon would have certainly described the gate as the "Windy Canyon gate" similar to the Sapphire Guard referring to "The Redmountain Gate" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html) rather than only having co-ordinates. I feel that, to Soon, the location in the desert was just another plot of land in a massive desert. The exact specific features of that location weren't important as he had specific co-ordinates that he could rely on (again, trusting his colleague's information)

Whether this means the canyon wasn't there at the time, wasn't considered a defining feature, the gate was shifted, Soon didn't recognise one aspect of geography from another, Girard said to Soon "don't bother referring to this as the Windy Canyon as the first thing I'm going to do is create some sort of illusion that obscures that particular landmark in all forms", or the Order of the Scribble just decided that co-ordinates were more appropriate than names doesn't matter.
The point is, Soon had no reason to exert a great amount of effort himself in obtaining an independent assessment of where exactly the rift was, and the circumstances around the rift's location and defences meant that him questioning the location based on his memory would be somewhat foolish. As pointed out, anytime I go to a new city I don't take the time and effort to memorise the exact co-ordinates of that city. If one of my closest partners told me "these are the co-ordinates to that city we went to just in case you ever need them", I wouldn't immediate check them against a map to ensure they were correct.

[campkilkare]

If one of my closest partners told me "these are the co-ordinates to that city we went to just in case you ever need them", I wouldn't immediate check them against a map to ensure they were correct.

And Girard would.

[factotum]

And Girard would.

Which is relevant *how*, given that it was Girard who gave the false coordinates to Soon, not the other way around?

[snikrept]

So I'm curious how Soon's crew originally discovered where to find the Rifts in the first place. It must have required some method beyond mere mapmaking or tracking skills, and it must have been definitive, as at the end of the day they were confident they'd found them all.

Perhaps having seen the original method in action, Soon figured he could direct his paladins (or Azure CIty's high priest, court wizard, etc) to go do that again. So he probably wasn't too worried about re-locating Girard's Rift. Then somehow the details of the location method got lost to his heirs...

[Thokk_Smash]

So I'm curious how Soon's crew originally discovered where to find the Rifts in the first place. It must have required some method beyond mere mapmaking or tracking skills, and it must have been definitive, as at the end of the day they were confident they'd found them all.

Perhaps having seen the original method in action, Soon figured he could direct his paladins (or Azure CIty's high priest, court wizard, etc) to go do that again. So he probably wasn't too worried about re-locating Girard's Rift. Then somehow the details of the location method got lost to his heirs...

But Soon was neither versed in Geography (as Girard was, and could use it to mark the location) or in the arcane or divine (as Dorukon and Lirian were, which they could use to divine whether or not there were more rifts). Soon had no way available to himself to figure out where the rifts were, and he had no need to have one since he had party members who could do it for him.

He was being a good party member: being the primary fighter alongside Kraagor, and leaving what he could not do to his party members.

[Taelas]

Again, I refer you to Stephen Fry's thoughts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY) on the matter. The modern meaning of the phrase "exception proves the rule" has been in use for over 30 years now, it has moved beyond "error" to being the primary meaning. Attempting to turn back the clock on it is exactly like pretending that "gay" cannot be used to refer to homosexuals because it should mean "happy".

Grey Wolf

Stephen Fry is arguing against pedantry regarding grammar, he isn't saying we should throw it out with the bathwater.

Language does not "move on"; people do. Something does not become correct because a lot of people make a mistake; it becomes correct when no one cares if it is wrong.

That being said, this generally only applies to words, not phrases...

[Forum Staff]

Let's keep this on the topic of Soon and geography, not the origin of linguistic phrases. Okay?

[Newwby]

I think it's possible that Girard chose the rift in the desert as his to defend purely because of the lack of distinguishing landmarks so he could pull this trick on Soon.

[tomandtish]

I think it's possible that Girard chose the rift in the desert as his to defend purely because of the lack of distinguishing landmarks so he could pull this trick on Soon.

Nope. They each took the one closest to their homeland (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). Gerard just gets lucky that his is in a fairly non-descript area.

[BenjCano]

There are two reasons why I believe that Girard's decision to give Soon false coordinates was a poor choice to deceive Soon himself, but perfectly acceptable for anyone getting directions from Soon.

First, Soon has personally been to the Gate. He may not be able to tell you Latitude and Longitude coordinates, but presumably he could do a rough job of describing its location relative to the nearest town or village, where the Order of the Scribble went for supplies and/or to recover after finding the Rift and constructing the Gate. "It's about 150 miles south-southwest of [Bleedingham's original name]." The second Soon figured out that the coordinates Girard gave him were nowhere near that landmark, he would instantly have reason to suspect a trick.

Remember, the Gate was not located at "some random spot in the desert." It was located in the middle of a named terrain feature, the Windy Canyon, that no one had to get special directions to once they heard of it. The OotS flew straight out without maps or special directions from Tarquin, and Tarquin himself didn't discuss extensive divining or fetch questing once he learned the Draktooths were operating out of that location. The second clue Soon would have had that Girard was pulling a fast one on him was the fact that if he followed the coordinates, not only would he have been going in the wrong direction from [not-Bleedingham], but he eventually ended up nowhere near the Windy Canyon.

Second, recall that Girard expected Soon to break the oath and come check on him no more than twelve weeks after the Order of the Scribble dissolved. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) Twelve weeks is hardly enough time to forget to ride your celestial mount from point A to point B. If I was DMing a game in which a character wanted to go back to a spot he or she had previously visited, I wouldn't even make them roll for it. I just check for a random encounter, and say, "OK, four days later you arrive at the Windy Canyon."

[Belril Duskwalk]

Twelve weeks is hardly enough time to forget to ride your celestial mount from point A to point B. If I was DMing a game in which a character wanted to go back to a spot he or she had previously visited, I wouldn't even make them roll for it. I just check for a random encounter, and say, "OK, four days later you arrive at the Windy Canyon."

You assume he rode there in the first place. Having an Epic level Wizard in the party, (one who we know did not choose to bar Conjuration) there's a good chance he didn't ride there at all. It's quite possible they teleported straight to the Rift. Possibly from a distances of hundreds of miles away. Under those circumstances, without some kind of Knowledge (Geography), I would give him perhaps a 1% chance to find it without an honest set of coordinates.

[factotum]

First, Soon has personally been to the Gate. He may not be able to tell you Latitude and Longitude coordinates, but presumably he could do a rough job of describing its location relative to the nearest town or village, where the Order of the Scribble went for supplies and/or to recover after finding the Rift and constructing the Gate. "It's about 150 miles south-southwest of [Bleedingham's original name]." The second Soon figured out that the coordinates Girard gave him were nowhere near that landmark, he would instantly have reason to suspect a trick.

Remember, the Gate was not located at "some random spot in the desert." It was located in the middle of a named terrain feature, the Windy Canyon, that no one had to get special directions to once they heard of it.

You're making some baseless assumptions here:

1) Since Soon doesn't have tracking, and wasn't making a map, why would he even be sure what direction they were travelling in? And that's assuming they actually travelled there by non-magical means, which seems unlikely for an epic level party.

2) Everything else in the Western Continent changes its name from month to month, so there's no guarantee that the Windy Canyon was known by that name back then, or that it would be known by the same name when he returned. Heck, it might not have even HAD a name--it's a featureless dry place in the middle of the desert with no obvious signs of water or vegetation, which are about the only things people would consider important enough to name locations for in such a place.

3) The Gate itself is not in Windy Canyon but in the desert just outside it (as can be seen from the current strip), so the possibility remains that Soon never actually visited the Canyon itself--he and his party could well have approached the rift from the desert side. Girard would obviously have explored the Canyon quite thoroughly as part of setting up home nearby, but there wouldn't have been a reason for the rest of the OotScribble to do so.

[Chantelune]

First, Soon has personally been to the Gate. He may not be able to tell you Latitude and Longitude coordinates, but presumably he could do a rough job of describing its location relative to the nearest town or village, where the Order of the Scribble went for supplies and/or to recover after finding the Rift and constructing the Gate. "It's about 150 miles south-southwest of [Bleedingham's original name]." The second Soon figured out that the coordinates Girard gave him were nowhere near that landmark, he would instantly have reason to suspect a trick.

"So you go in that giant desert, find the small peddler's village located... somewhere around there, with some sort of rocky thingy... Oh wait, there were five wars since then, it's all sand now... Okay, so you go to the empire of... Uh, how is it called nowadays ? Ah, crap, just take those coordinates, get into the goddamn desert and find that gate !"


Remember, the Gate was not located at "some random spot in the desert." It was located in the middle of a named terrain feature, the Windy Canyon, that no one had to get special directions to once they heard of it. The OotS flew straight out without maps or special directions from Tarquin, and Tarquin himself didn't discuss extensive divining or fetch questing once he learned the Draktooths were operating out of that location. The second clue Soon would have had that Girard was pulling a fast one on him was the fact that if he followed the coordinates, not only would he have been going in the wrong direction from [not-Bleedingham], but he eventually ended up nowhere near the Windy Canyon.

For all we know, "windy canyon" might have appeared years after the order of the scribble disbanded. Might even been artificially created by Girard as a first layer of protection thanks to the wind being a pain in the butt for any party without "control weather". If that weather is not artificial in the first time.


Second, recall that Girard expected Soon to break the oath and come check on him no more than twelve weeks after the Order of the Scribble dissolved. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) Twelve weeks is hardly enough time to forget to ride your celestial mount from point A to point B. If I was DMing a game in which a character wanted to go back to a spot he or she had previously visited, I wouldn't even make them roll for it. I just check for a random encounter, and say, "OK, four days later you arrive at the Windy Canyon."

Twelves weeks after the order disbanded. Not twelve weeks after they left the desert. We don't know how much time passed since the desert and the disbanding.

If I was the DM, I would do the same for a place they are familiar with, but for some they just went through once, I would ask for a roll (not a hard one, but still) just to make sure they don't make a wrong turn. For a place they just went through once and have little to no landmark, such as a desert, the roll would be harder, especially if the guy asking that is not the one in charge of keeping track of the locations of the rifts.

[Taelas]

Plus the whole reshuffling of borders constantly going on.

[David Argall]

If I was DMing a game in which a character wanted to go back to a spot he or she had previously visited, I wouldn't even make them roll for it. I just check for a random encounter, and say, "OK, four days later you arrive at the Windy Canyon."
If they were just going to be traveling there, that is reasonable. But here we are talking about somebody trying to fool them. As DM I would have no problems in creating that situation by telling the party, "4 days later you finally are sure the map you are following is a fake. You have been wondering about odd points for some time, but now the evidence is overwhelming. You are not sure who switched maps on you and gave you this fake, but right now you don't care. You are now 4 days late in getting to X and you were in a rush in the first place. Fortunately you do know where you are now, and by rushing thru Suicide Canyon, you..."

[Onyavar]

But it's not like the Windy Canyon is some obscure location. Tarquin didn't need to tell the OOTS where it was, he just said its name and they were like, "We're on it!" Indicating that random mappers in Sandsedge knew where it was.

The Draketooth Clan making the canyon magically windy in order to discourage people with flight spells seems to make sense.

This is a good point! Well, I guess that during the months-long scrying process Penelope also got the coordinates of her goal, wrote it down in her diary, and her husband found it and noted the coordinates for the order. This is rather complicated, so the story didn't cover it directly.

But we know that Windy Canyon already had that name when Serini wrote her diary, because Redcloak and Xykon know this name. (Or, Redcloak purchased a very detailed map, looked up the coordinates, and then figured out that it was directly near the Windy Canyon.)

[Unisus]

So Soon was there, ok. And he left from there, ok. Have you ever been with friends at their home? If you'd call them the next day, asking for their address, and they gave you a fake one (just for fun of course), would you instantly know that thsi address is wrong? If you now took a taxi, the driver would take you to the address your friends gave you, and there you would recognice that it's not where you should be. But until that? (I'm not speaking about that friend living next door, i thought more of a friend living in another town some hundred miles away)

[BenjCano]

You're making some baseless assumptions here:

1) Since Soon doesn't have tracking, and wasn't making a map, why would he even be sure what direction they were travelling in? And that's assuming they actually travelled there by non-magical means, which seems unlikely for an epic level party.

To quote Nick Fury from the Avengers movie: "Is the sun rising? Then put it on the left!"

[NerdyKris]

To quote Nick Fury from the Avengers movie: "Is the sun rising? Then put it on the left!"

For immediate purposes, yes. but that's only going to point you in the general direction.

As I've pointed out (not sure if it was in this thread), lacking features or anything to focus on, people will tend to walk in a circle in the direction of their dominant hand. Especially if you're using something that's pretty consistently moving across the sky on you. It's why the North Star is so important in navigation. Because it's always north. Other stars move around it, from the perspective of someone in the northern hemisphere.

And even saying something is "east" or "west" of another landmark doesn't help when you can end up 20 miles off course and walk right by it without ever seeing it. Again, people who have never been in a large flat area might not realize that the earth curves and limits how far you can see. You can walk right through the desert to the other side without ever seeing your goal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To quote Nick Fury from the Avengers movie: "Is the sun rising? Then put it on the left!"

This is not an argument in your favour. Nick Fury does have ranks in knowledge(geography). He is the equivalent of Girard, while his navigator the equivalent of Soon.

GW

[Taelas]

To quote Nick Fury from the Avengers movie: "Is the sun rising? Then put it on the left!"

OK. Let's say you're Soon and you quote Nick Fury. In other words, you made your untrained Knowledge (Geography) check: you know the sun rises in the east! Good show!

In other words, you can figure out which direction is east. Assuming the sun is rising -- and you are aware that it is, in fact, rising.

Now use your knowledge of the compass to get to a city!

You are standing in a scorching hot desert. There are no distinguishing features; any sand dune looks just like the next, and the darn things move around too. You have no idea how far it is to the nearest city, no idea in which direction the nearest city is, and to make it worse, the constantly changing political climate means that even if you find a city, it might be named something completely different from what you expected, assuming you've even been to it before.

[Unisus]

And then there is this little problem with the sun not rising exactly in the east, but depending on your position and the time of the year somewhere between north an south in eastern direction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And then there is this little problem with the sun not rising exactly in the east, but depending on your position and the time of the year somewhere between north an south in eastern direction.

Indeed. If the desert sits astride the equator (as deserts tend to do - something concerning predominant air columns, IIRC - and Girard's desert is more like the Sahara than the Gobi), the sun could rise anywhere from east-north-east to perfectly east, to east-south-east depending on latitude.

Another fun thing about the equator is that sunrise and sundown happens much faster than in more polar latitudes, meaning that the sun spends less time close to the horizon, were it is easy to aim for, and more time hanging overhead, of no use for any direction that isn't "up".

And finally, just to beat this horse to within an inch of its life, who the hell travels through a desert during the day, anyway? That's a recipe for painful dehydrated death. More likely, they were traveling at night, when it is cold, and then we are back to "Soon doesn't have the ranks to identify the north star (assuming there is one to find; its luck alone that we currently have one - and the southern half of the planet instead has to rely on a constellation that "points" south).

Grey Wolf

[factotum]

the sun could rise anywhere from east-north-east to perfectly east, to east-south-east depending on latitude.


It also depends on the time of year, as Unisus points out--unless Stickworld doesn't have any axial tilt, but in that case it wouldn't have any seasons either, which we know is not the case! (And yes, that still applies even at the Equator).

[Olinser]

Coming out of the Marine Corps, all officers have to go through basic Land Navigation in Quantico.

Lieutenants are given a modern compass, an accurate map, and the exact locations of several boxes in the middle of a large area of wilderness and told to go find them.

Even WITH training, it never ceases to amaze me how many failed or got lost - and that is WITH an accurate map of a professionally surveyed area, a plethora of landmarks, and an area that is (relatively) small. Pop them in the middle of a desert? You'd lose dozens of them a year.

Now take Soon, a man without any knowledge, ability, or training in navigation, walked into the middle of an uncharted, unmarked desert, and is expected to know exactly where it is?

Give the average civilian grid coordinates and they can't recognize if the coordinates are for their house or for a nasty Yakuza dive in the red light district of Tokyo. Sure a lot of people can use Google Earth these days, but remember the technology level - Soon can't just pop his tablet open and check the satellite image.

You're given a set of random coordinates. You have no idea what they actually mean - and without the internet, the only real option is to find somebody learned in cartography - who, without GOING to the location, could really only tell you, "Yeah, it's over here, in the desert". Soon's only real response, "... I guess that looks right."

Independently checking the coordinates would require Soon to go back to town, find somebody with the knowledge and ability to travel to the exact coordinates, and then go BACK to the location of the Gate - something that he explicitly swore an oath NOT to do.

Makes perfect sense that Soon didn't know the coordinates were wrong.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It also depends on the time of year, as Unisus points out--unless Stickworld doesn't have any axial tilt, but in that case it wouldn't have any seasons either, which we know is not the case! (And yes, that still applies even at the Equator).

Sorry, yes, that is what I meant - I was adding even more conditionals to Soon's ignorance, not superseding Unisus' own conditionals.

"The Spanish inquisition's two reasons to get lost in the desert are: season, latitude and sunrise speed! No, damn, the Spanish inquisition's three reasons to get lost in the desert are: season, latitude, sunrise speed and heat!" etc. ad nauseam.

GW

[Ornithologist]

To everybody who likens this to inter city travel-

Cities are designed and set up with street names and grids to help people get to places easier. (Though not always, some cities would rather have the poor tourists trapped in horrible dive instead. Please check with your local street map to find out more.) They want to make it as easy as possible to keep the populations moving as quickly as possible.

Pure wilderness is much much harder to navigate properly, as you can imagine.

Homework- For fun, give a friend directions to a place in town using only landmarks, no street names, and preferably no business names either. Don't use easy distances either, Give them directions based on time traveled or its three furlongs away, etc.

Turn left at the tree on the right side about 15 minutes away
Turn right at the large kidney Shaped rock on the right.
If you pass the Old Mine you've gone to far.
-edit-you will probably have to find a new friend at this point -end edit-

-I personally would die of thirst well before getting to the old mine:smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

To quote Nick Fury from the Avengers movie: "Is the sun rising? Then put it on the left!"

I dunno. How many ranks does Soon have in Spot?

(Hey, it was the only joke not made yet :smalltongue:)

[MReav]

I dunno. How many ranks does Soon have in Spot?

(Hey, it was the only joke not made yet :smalltongue:)

He's a paladin with age modifiers, so his Wisdom should give him a pretty decent untrained check.

[SaintRidley]

Never mind, I'm late to the party. Just count me in the many people who think Girard created Windy Canyon after the party split up. Soon, were he to wander into that area, would find himself somewhere that seems very different from where he remembers the Gate being.

Basically - don't trust Girard. Even if you can navigate by landmarks - 1) desert, 2) Girard. You're not finding him if he doesn't want you to. Or you steal the real coordinates from the one person he trusted.

[snikrept]

The other thing I'm puzzled about is why Girard never updated the booby trap and associated message. He must have known his speech lost some of its punch when Soon didn't actually show up within 12 weeks.

Was Girard already dead of natural causes before 12 weeks had elapsed? Surely not? He seemed pretty young in the crayon flashback, and his corpse looked to be that of an elderly man.

Did Girard himself forget where the fake location was?

Did he just stop caring about his little speech being correct?

[MReav]

The other thing I'm puzzled about is why Girard never updated the booby trap and associated message. He must have known his speech lost some of its punch when Soon didn't actually show up within 12 weeks.

Was Girard already dead of natural causes before 12 weeks had elapsed? Surely not? He seemed pretty young in the crayon flashback, and his corpse looked to be that of an elderly man.

Did Girard himself forget where the fake location was?

Did he just stop caring about his little speech being correct?

I think he left it there just in case Soon's "fascist paladin lackeys" found it. His bet said it wouldn't last more than 12 weeks, but the substance of the rest of his speech was still there, at least in his mind.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The other thing I'm puzzled about is why Girard never updated the booby trap and associated message.

Given how absurdly bitter Girard was, I suspect that even when everyone else in his family had accepted that Soon's honor was indeed trustworthy, he kept saying "one more day, one more day" till the day he died. After that, there might not have been anyone that did know where the trigger had been set.

Grey Wolf

[Trixie]

We still don't know what happened to Kraagor that upset Girard. But we can't assume that Girard's hatred is based any more on facts than we'd assume Ian's paranoia about Elan was an accurate statement about Elan's motivations. Especially when the evidence clearly shows that Soon kept his word, even into death.

Seeing Girard did give good coordinates to his Gate to other Scribbles and the others didn't inform Soon of the charade but in fact joined betting pool when Soon will break his word I'd say that, yes, Girard had pretty good idea what Soon is capable of. He didn't break it? It means nothing, he might have been too busy with threats to Azure City to do what others thought of him, continuously putting it away for later, until he died.

Also, I don't know from where your 'readers believe last thing they heard' came from. I'd say it's different, quite a lot of people othright refused to even contemplate possibility Girard was perfectly right based just on glimpse of old Soon (that went through whatever redeeming processes his afterlife had for decades). Let me point out that he lied to Miko, yes, to comfort her, but he confirmed he can obscure the truth when it was convenient.

[MReav]

Also, I don't know from where your 'readers believe last thing they heard' came from. I'd say it's different, quite a lot of people othright refused to even contemplate possibility Girard was perfectly right based just on glimpse of old Soon (that went through whatever redeeming processes his afterlife had for decades). Let me point out that he lied to Miko, yes, to comfort her, but he confirmed he can obscure the truth when it was convenient.

When did he lie to Miko?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Seeing Girard did give good coordinates to his Gate to other Scribbles and the others didn't inform Soon of the charade but in fact joined betting pool when Soon will break his word

[citation needed]. As far as I know, the betting pool was exclusive to Girard and his progeny.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Here, he says he gave the true coordinates to Serini:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html

and then "We even have a pool going over how long it will take for you to break your word and send someone"

though its not clear if "We" solely refers to him & his kin, or if it includes Serini.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Here, he says he gave the true coordinates to Serini:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html

and then "We even have a pool going over how long it will take for you to break your word and send someone"

though its not clear if "We" solely refers to him & his kin, or if it includes Serini.

I'm not disputing that he gave the right coordinates, only the claim that Serini shared Girard's irrational hate against Soon, and that in fact she and the rest of the Scribblers colluded to hide the real location from Soon - if nothing else, because none of the others bothered hiding their gates from Soon.

Grey Wolf

[factotum]

I agree with the monochrome lupine...if the rest of the Scribble were colluding with Girard to hide his Gate from Soon, why didn't they do the same themselves? It's a lot easier to believe that Girard and Serini were alone in this, especially since we know from her diary that Serini had a sweet spot for him. As for Soon lying to Miko, I don't recall that ever happening--everything he told her as she lay dying was the truth, as far as I can see.

[Anteros]

It's possible that Soon personally would have been able to navigate back to the rift under need, but didn't have the knowledge of maps to recognize that he had been lied to.

Thus, despite the fact that he personally could have travelled back to the gate...the paladins he's been unknowingly passing incorrect information to for the last several generations cannot.

[archon_huskie]

And then there is this little problem with the sun not rising exactly in the east, but depending on your position and the time of the year somewhere between north an south in eastern direction.

Take a stick and . . . well . . . stick it into the ground angled so that it does not cast a shadow. Wait for the sun to move and cast a shadow 6 inches long off the stick. Draw a perpendicular line through the stick's shadow. That line is a true North-South line. So if you have a walking stick and sunny day, you have a compass.

[Unisus]

Take a stick and . . . well . . . stick it into the ground angled so that it does not cast a shadow. Wait for the sun to move and cast a shadow 6 inches long off the stick. Draw a perpendicular line through the stick's shadow. That line is a true North-South line. So if you have a walking stick and sunny day, you have a compass.

And this is something anyone knows? Especially people whose complete knowledge in navigating is "the sun raises in the east, has it's highest point in the south and goes down in the west"?

And is this "6 inches" true no matter how long the stick is?

And how do you use this compass in a featureless desert? I mean, of course you can stop every two miles and wait for the sun to move the shadow, so you can correct your course, but how do you see how far you are away from the point you should be?

[Throknor]

Take a stick and . . . well . . . stick it into the ground angled so that it does not cast a shadow. Wait for the sun to move and cast a shadow 6 inches long off the stick. Draw a perpendicular line through the stick's shadow. That line is a true North-South line. So if you have a walking stick and sunny day, you have a compass.

Pick up the stick. Walk over a dune. Lose sight of your line.

[Snails]

Take a stick and . . . well . . . stick it into the ground angled so that it does not cast a shadow. Wait for the sun to move and cast a shadow 6 inches long off the stick. Draw a perpendicular line through the stick's shadow. That line is a true North-South line. So if you have a walking stick and sunny day, you have a compass.

You have a narrowly correct point, but I do not see how it matters.

Soon may well have had sufficient personal knowledge to find Girard's Gate...eventually, yet be fooled by some numbers on a piece of paper.

If Soon had personal knowledge of maps of the continent memorized, he would have looked at those numbers and likely said "Yup. In the desert. That looks about right." The problem would not be apparent unless Soon carefully checked Girard's work against good quality maps.

On my home planet, coordinates off by half a degree put you a few hundred miles away.

[Snails]

And how do you use this compass in a featureless desert? I mean, of course you can stop every two miles and wait for the sun to move the shadow, so you can correct your course, but how do you see how far you are away from the point you should be?

As a practical matter, you would attempt to find some point like "152 miles due north of Tall Mountain on the desert's edge, then walk 19 miles due West".

However, without a sextant and some skill, you would be very fortunate to end up within 10 miles of your intended target. 100 square miles of desert is a lot of searching.

[factotum]

On my home planet, coordinates off by half a degree put you a few hundred miles away.

Your home planet isn't Earth, then? (Since half a degree of error on *that* planet would be about 33 miles).

[archon_huskie]

And this is something anyone knows? Especially people whose complete knowledge in navigating is "the sun raises in the east, has it's highest point in the south and goes down in the west"?

And is this "6 inches" true no matter how long the stick is?

And how do you use this compass in a featureless desert? I mean, of course you can stop every two miles and wait for the sun to move the shadow, so you can correct your course, but how do you see how far you are away from the point you should be?

Anyone who has read the 12th ed Boy Scouts of America Handbook.

As for the 6 inches, it is the movement of the sun that matters not the length of the stick. It would be interesting to try it with different lengths of stick to see if that affects how long it takes to cast a 6 inch shadow.

[Unisus]

I think we can be pretty sure that Soon did not read this book - and i think we can assume that anyone reading a handbook for boy scouts should have at least some knowledge about scouting afterwards - so we can not assume that navigating through a desert is something you could do without any special knowledge.

And for the 6 inches - as far as i know, the length of the shadow is proportional to the length of the object casting the shadow, so a 5 inch stick would need a lot more time (i.e. sun movement) to cast a 6 inch shadow than a 20 inch stick. But if its not the same time, i'm pretty sure that it would also not be the same directon of the shadow. But i think i will just try this out on a sunny day.

[Taelas]

Take a stick and . . . well . . . stick it into the ground angled so that it does not cast a shadow. Wait for the sun to move and cast a shadow 6 inches long off the stick. Draw a perpendicular line through the stick's shadow. That line is a true North-South line. So if you have a walking stick and sunny day, you have a compass.

You can also take a wristwatch, hold it so 12 points to the left, and turn until the hour-hand points at the sun. South is right in the middle of the hour-hand and 12.

(If you're in the southern hemisphere, you point the 12 at the sun, and the split difference from the hour hand finds north.)

Clever people can probably use this for directions even without a wristwatch, if they know the time of day.

[rewinn]

Soon was the leader and founder of the Order of the Scribble. ... It's possible that he never wrote their exact location down. That seems rather sloppy, given that he was the party leader and how important the rifts were, but I suppose it's possible. But surely he should have remembered their approximate location?

Soon may have. But why would he tell anyone where it is?

He swore an oath not to interfere. Whether he was lied to or not about the location: so what? He can't tell anyone the true location, and he might even be straight-laced enough not to tell anyone "The location I've been told is X but it's a lie."

[Porthos]

Anyone who has read the 12th ed Boy Scouts of America Handbook.

So anyone who can make the appropiate Knowledge (Geography) check. Got it. :smallwink:

Less facetiously, people forget/half remember what they did as a kid. Even presuming they were ever in the Boy Scouts in the first place.

[BenjCano]

So anyone who can make the appropiate Knowledge (Geography) check. Got it. :smallwink:

Less facetiously, people forget/half remember what they did as a kid. Even presuming they were ever in the Boy Scouts in the first place.

Most people don't live the life of a wandering adventurer, covering hundreds of miles on horseback.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Most people don't live the life of a wandering adventurer, covering hundreds of miles on horseback.

Yes, and those who do still need to choose what they know. You are essentially arguing that Soon should have had knowledge(Geography). Some may agree with that. But that is neither here nor there, since we already know that he did not, in fact, have that knowledge.

You are essentially doing a circular argument "Soon would see those coordinates as false because I think that Soon should have knowledge of how to navigate the desert, because he was an adventurer, and I believe every adventurer should have knowledge of how to navigate the desert".

Soon didn't have that knowledge. You can think less of him for that, or not, but you can't argue that he would know false coordinates when given to him based on the knowledge you think he should have had, when it has been established he didn't.

Grey Wolf

[Snails]

Your home planet isn't Earth, then? (Since half a degree of error on *that* planet would be about 33 miles).

Oops. I just blew my cover.

[BenjCano]

You are essentially doing a circular argument "Soon would see those coordinates as false because I think that Soon should have knowledge of how to navigate the desert, because he was an adventurer, and I believe every adventurer should have knowledge of how to navigate the desert".


That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if Soon himself had decided, for whatever reason, to go to Girard's Gate, he would have been able to get there himself. My reasons for arguing that point are:

1) The Gate was located in the middle of a named terrain feature that's common knowledge.
2) He had personally been there, and it was reasonable to expect that the nearby town of [not-Bloodingham] was where the Order of the Scribble went to prep for and recover from the assault on the Holey Brotherhood or Baron Pineapple or whoever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), making it a natural reference point.
3) If the Order of the Stick, with its incompetent tracker, can find the Windy Canyon after having been given only its name from Tarquin could find the Gate, then Soon, who had personally been there, could have done the same.

[Scow2]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if Soon himself had decided, for whatever reason, to go to Girard's Gate, he would have been able to get there himself. My reasons for arguing that point are:

1) The Gate was located in the middle of a named terrain feature that's common knowledge.
2) He had personally been there, and it was reasonable to expect that the nearby town of [not-Bloodingham] was where the Order of the Scribble went to prep for and recover from the assault on the Holey Brotherhood or Baron Pineapple or whoever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), making it a natural reference point.
3) If the Order of the Stick, with its incompetent tracker, can find the Windy Canyon after having been given only its name from Tarquin could find the Gate, then Soon, who had personally been there, could have done the same.The Order of the Stick also had a full complement of Navigation Tools - after much confusion about "Sex taint" and a "Cart of Gophers". Also - There's no proof that A) Bleedingham existed in anything resembling its current state at the time of the Order of the Scribble. and B) The Windy Canyon was known as such back then as well (Or even existed!)

[Kish]

When did he lie to Miko?
He told her she would see her horse again, when she was about to be plunged into the depths of the Abyss, never to know the slightest ray of hope or joy again, OBVIOUSLY.

(Sarcasm.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

1) The Gate was located in the middle of a named terrain feature that's common knowledge.

Even if I concede that the canyon was called that when Soon was there, which I don't, it is still irrelevant. Finding the windy canyon in the middle of a desert is as hard as finding the gate in the middle of a desert, and you still can't explain how Soon could do that.



2) He had personally been there,

Middle of a desert. Just because you have been there once, that doesn't mean you can find the place again.


it was reasonable to expect that the nearby town of [not-Bloodingham] was where the Order of the Scribble went to prep for and recover from the assault on the Holey Brotherhood or Baron Pineapple or whoever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html), making it a natural reference point.

No, it is not reasonable to assume that there was a city nearby because its in the middle of a desert. In the map, we see that the cities are on the coast. There are no cities in the desert.


3) If the Order of the Stick, with its incompetent tracker, can find the Windy Canyon after having been given only its name from Tarquin could find the Gate, then Soon, who had personally been there, could have done the same.

Again: no. Belkar might be an incompetent tracker, but that's irrelevant since they were not in fact tracking down anything. They were navigating the desert. Roy prepared by buying maps and equipment, which he knows how to use. Soon doesn't.

And of course, middle of the desert.

Grey Wolf

[BenjCano]

Even if I concede that the canyon was called that when Soon was there, which I don't, it is still irrelevant. Finding the windy canyon in the middle of a desert is as hard as finding the gate in the middle of a desert, and you still can't explain how Soon could do that.


So what's more likely...that this terrain feature had a name prior to being occupied by the paranoid, secretive clan of illusionists who would have gone to every effort to discourage visitors, or that it acquired that name after they began using every ability at their disposal to keep people out of the Canyon?

The entirety of the direction the Order of the Stick had as to its location was, "it's a two day flight by carpet." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) If that's enough for them to go on, then I refuse to concede that someone who had previously been there could not retrace his steps. I'm sorry, but that's the sort of crap adventurers do.

"Hey GM, I want to go back to that temple we didn't finish clearing out in the jungle."

"Sure. It's a three day trip, let's check for random encounters."


Middle of a desert. Just because you have been there once, that doesn't mean you can find the place again.

You or I couldn't. You and I aren't adventurers who routinely cover the entire continent on horseback looking for dungeons to clear out.


No, it is not reasonable to assume that there was a city nearby because its in the middle of a desert. In the map, we see that the cities are on the coast. There are no cities in the desert.

Two days by carpet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) Magic carpets have a slower speed than a warhorse.

[factotum]

Two days by carpet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) Magic carpets have a slower speed than a warhorse.

Two days by magic carpet, according to RAW, is 64 miles. That's well over the horizon and thus out of sight of any landmarks relating to the city--even assuming the city existed 60 years ago, which we have no evidence of. Don't forget, there has only been quasi-stability on the Western Continent since Tarquin's team have been running their scam, which is only 15 years or so--given how chaotic the place was beforehand there's no way to tell how old Bleedingham is.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So what's more likely...that this terrain feature had a name prior to being occupied by the paranoid, secretive clan of illusionists who would have gone to every effort to discourage visitors, or that it acquired that name after they began using every ability at their disposal to keep people out of the Canyon?

A canyon that has been enchanted with magical winds to prevent anyone flying over it? I'd say the odds are "it was enchanted by the clan, to prevent unwanted visitors".


The entirety of the direction the Order of the Stick had as to its location was, "it's a two day flight by carpet." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) If that's enough for them to go on, then I refuse to concede that someone who had previously been there could not retrace his steps.
You can refuse to concede, but that only makes you look unreasonable. Walking days through a desert is not the same as flying over it. Also, you can't use horses in a desert.


You or I couldn't. You and I aren't adventurers who routinely cover the entire continent on horseback looking for dungeons to clear out.
If you use the same argument you've used before (remember when I explained you were using circular reasoning?), I will give you the same exact counter I gave you before: adventurers capable of doing that are those with ranks in the appropriate skill. Soon didn't have those ranks, so he depended on Girard. Without Girard, he can't navigate the desert. "It don't mean a thing, if you ain't paid for that swing" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html)


Two days by carpet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) Magic carpets have a slower speed than a warhorse.

They are also slower than a sailing ship, no doubt, but you wouldn't use one of those in a desert, either. Soon & company are always seen walking, so I will add that trying to find a place you've been to once before, years later, even if it wasn't in the middle of a desert, is made a lot harder if you are moving at a different speed from what you did the first time. Soon trying to ride a camel to find the rift the second time around would have made his issues with geography harder, not easier. And without the camel, he would still need to walk through a desert for days. He would have no chance of finding the place without a guide.

Grey Wolf

[BenjCano]

A canyon that has been enchanted with magical winds to prevent anyone flying over it? I'd say the odds are "it was enchanted by the clan, to prevent unwanted visitors".

So the group that depends on secrecy and deception is going to alter the weather patterns over a hitherto unnamed terrain feature to the extent that it becomes a named terrain feature in furtherance of their secrecy? That does not compute. If anything, it makes it even more likely that people are going to get curious and come check out why, all of a sudden, there's a magical no-fly zone over this previously uninteresting part of the desert.



Also, you can't use horses in a desert.


The Bedouin beg to differ. (http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_history_bedouin.asp)

We're zeroing in on fundamental disagreement territory. Perhaps your method of GMing differs from mine, but I tend to assume, regardless of what skill ranks and whatnot, that an adventurer can return to a place he or she has been before with a minimum of fuss.

[Unisus]

We're zeroing in on fundamental disagreement territory. Perhaps your method of GMing differs from mine, but I tend to assume, regardless of what skill ranks and whatnot, that an adventurer can return to a place he or she has been before with a minimum of fuss.

If it is so easy to find back to a place where you were before, would you say you could find back when, say someone brought you to a house somewhere in a big city and then to some other place? Without knowing the correct address? Maybe in one of those parts of the city, where one house looks like the other? Good luck there.

What would also be interesting - are those two days on a magic carpet normal traveling days, or two full days? After all, the carpet himself needs no rest, and the passengers can rest while traveling.

And as for the OotS finding the place with only knowing that it was two days with a flying carpet away - they had maps and navigation equipment they knew how to use (Roy looking for a sextant implies that he knows how to use one).

[Durgok]

So the group that depends on secrecy and deception is going to alter the weather patterns over a hitherto unnamed terrain feature to the extent that it becomes a named terrain feature in furtherance of their secrecy? That does not compute. If anything, it makes it even more likely that people are going to get curious and come check out why, all of a sudden, there's a magical no-fly zone over this previously uninteresting part of the desert.

All it takes is one well-placed rumour about a battle involving an epic spellcaster in which the aftermath made the area a barren wind-ridden hell hole to keep the majority of gawkers away. Then after a few generations (and based on the previous stability of the western continent; would suggest that for people who would express interest in Windy Canyon that the wait would not be long) people would forget that it hasn't always been that way.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So the group that depends on secrecy and deception is going to alter the weather patterns over a hitherto unnamed terrain feature to the extent that it becomes a named terrain feature in furtherance of their secrecy? That does not compute. If anything, it makes it even more likely that people are going to get curious and come check out why, all of a sudden, there's a magical no-fly zone over this previously uninteresting part of the desert.

Any gawkers can be misled with illusions (and, since it is in the middle of a desert, there won't be that much tourist attraction to the place). But if some guy crossing the desert in his magical carpet hits the top of the pyramid, recovers and flies on, their invisible structure in the middle of nowhere would be the talk of the continent. That would bring in not gawkers, but adventurers, a much bigger problem.


The Bedouin beg to differ. (http://www.arabianhorses.org/education/education_history_bedouin.asp).

No, they don't. The Bedouin don't take horses into the Sahara. Only camels.


We're zeroing in on fundamental disagreement territory. Perhaps your method of GMing differs from mine, but I tend to assume, regardless of what skill ranks and whatnot, that an adventurer can return to a place he or she has been before with a minimum of fuss.

You can also assume that people can swim up a waterfall, but that doesn't make it possible. Finding a place in the middle of a desert, that you have been in only once, when you have no knowledge of navigation of cartography, is simply impossible. Nothing you have said so far even approaches plausibility, and I can only imagine the reason for this is because you have never been in a desert. I have been to the Sahara, with a Bedouin guide, and within 30 minutes, I was utterly lost. I could not have found my way back to camp, even with my compass. Because in a desert you don't travel in a straight line, nor can you judge distances.

I went to a very nice oasis (1 hour trip), and then we went back to the bus. It has been over ten years. I know the name of the city where we decked for the trip (I still have my turban). But your idea that I could go back to Tunisia, and just walk into the desert and find the same oasis is ludicrous.

Grey Wolf

[David Argall]

I tend to assume, regardless of what skill ranks and whatnot, that an adventurer can return to a place he or she has been before with a minimum of fuss.
Well of course. But that is based on the same reasoning as V in 145. Travel is normally dull and we casually gloss over it. You want to go next door? Fine, you are there. You want to go to another continent? Fine, you are there too, in the same amount of time. But in both cases, we are assuming no special difficulties. As DM, you can put difficulties in either case. Next door is a swat raid after drugs, and you are arrested before you touch the door. Next continent, you face a typhoon, or a bad map. The real time you spend traveling is near zero relation to the game time, and the difficulty in getting there is not much greater. The PC gains no magical ability to return to a place from having been there before.
In our real world cases, we don't see a serious conflict. Soon is unskilled and made no special efforts. He should be a sucker for a bad map. Now we might say he should be suspicious, maybe well before he arrives, but that is not at all coming close to throwing away the map and using his memories. He is very lawful, and thus very prone to thinking "The map say X, and therefore it is at X." and marching all the way to X.

[brionl]

I went to a very nice oasis (1 hour trip), and then we went back to the bus. It has been over ten years. I know the name of the city where we decked for the trip (I still have my turban). But your idea that I could go back to Tunisia, and just walk into the desert and find the same oasis is ludicrous.

Grey Wolf

It's not just deserts. It's any wilderness area. If you're in the middle of a forest, all you can see is trees, and they all look alike. In a mountain range, you can't see the major mountains, only the canyon you're in. A forested mountain range? Forget it.

It takes a lot of skill in a specialized field to be able to wander around an unmarked wilderness w/o getting lost. Even more to find your way back to some place you've only been once, a couple of decades ago.

How many people can get completely lost, following named roads, with numbered addresses?

[factotum]

Perhaps your method of GMing differs from mine, but I tend to assume, regardless of what skill ranks and whatnot, that an adventurer can return to a place he or she has been before with a minimum of fuss.

And this is where you're making your fundamental error. You're assuming that the Order are players playing a game, GMed by some invisible GM. This is not the case--they live in a world that runs by D&D rules, true, but they have to face the very real difficulties that arise from that. A GM in a game might well just say, "OK, three days, no random encounters, you're back at Creepy Keep", but that's purely a device to keep the game flowing quickly--it doesn't bear any relation to how much difficulty the characters would have doing that in reality. Heck, it doesn't even bear any relation to how much difficulty the characters should have if you strictly followed the rules of the game, because if you were doing so, things like Knowledge (Geography) would actually be important to them finding their way back to their original location.

[BenjCano]

Finding a place in the middle of a desert, that you have been in only once, when you have no knowledge of navigation of cartography, is simply impossible. Nothing you have said so far even approaches plausibility, and I can only imagine the reason for this is because you have never been in a desert.

I actually spent one summer camping and trail hiking in New Mexico, and I maintain that if you dropped me off in Farmington, NM with a flying carpet I could make it to the Kiva in Chaco Canyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Culture_National_Historical_Park) inside of two days. Despite the fact that I've only been there once. I'd say with a horse, but I'm not a rider.

[Unisus]

I actually spent one summer camping and trail hiking in New Mexico, and I maintain that if you dropped me off in Farmington, NM with a flying carpet I could make it to the Kiva in Chaco Canyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Culture_National_Historical_Park) inside of two days. Despite the fact that I've only been there once. I'd say with a horse, but I'm not a rider.

Are you implying that you have zero knowledge of how to navigate, orient yourself and read a map correctly?

[Porthos]

I actually spent one summer camping and trail hiking in New Mexico, and I maintain that if you dropped me off in Farmington, NM with a flying carpet I could make it to the Kiva in Chaco Canyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaco_Culture_National_Historical_Park) inside of two days. Despite the fact that I've only been there once. I'd say with a horse, but I'm not a rider.

Have you ever seen the show Survivorman? Moving around by foot (and I include horses/camels/whatever in that term) in semi-remembered locations isn't the easiest thing in the world after all.

It's why so many people do in fact end up getting lost and dying, alone in the outdoors.

[Shale]

I'd just like to point out that we have no idea whether Soon would have known that the coordinates were wrong by looking at the landscape, because he never went there. All we know is that he didn't immediately realize they were wrong by looking at them, which is what you'd expect when he wasn't involved with the mapping in the first place. I lived in Philadelphia for 20 years, and if you gave me the longitude and latitude for Baltimore I'd know something was up as soon as I got there, but not before because I don't have the slightest clue what the longitude and latitude of anywhere is.

[Scow2]

[QUOTE=BenjCano;15884581Two days by carpet. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html) Magic carpets have a slower speed than a warhorse.[/QUOTE]
Maybe in Feet per Round, but not Miles Per Day.

A Light Warhorse can travel 48 miles in a day (60'x8 hours), with possibly 6-24 additional miles over the entire trip if they can forced march the animals. A walking adventuring party can travel 16 miles per day (+2-16 additional miles if they Forced March, up to an additional 8)

A Carpet of Flying can cover 96 Miles Per Day - it only needs one person awake enough to make sure it doesn't crash or run into a storm or get hit by a Random Encounter.

[Amphiox]

Take a stick and . . . well . . . stick it into the ground angled so that it does not cast a shadow. Wait for the sun to move and cast a shadow 6 inches long off the stick. Draw a perpendicular line through the stick's shadow. That line is a true North-South line. So if you have a walking stick and sunny day, you have a compass.

See, that's the kind of real-life knowledge that when translated to D&D mechanics would qualify as Ranks in Knowledge (Mapmaking and Navigation).

And being able to find a place you've been to before again yourself is not the same thing as being able to guide someone to that place by giving them map coordinates, and not the same thing as being able to recognize a set of coordinates given to you for that place as wrong, particularly if the fake coordinates are actually reasonably close within the same general area.

Soon probably remembered the location in terms of things like "X days ride in Y direction from Bleedingham" or some other such landmark. Translating that knowledge into map coordinates passed down to successors who have never been the Western Continent was probably not a skill he possessed.

For all we know the deception began at the very beginning. Soon and co. arrive at the rift, fight and defeat whatever they need to to secure the rift. Soon turns to Girard and asks him "so what are the map coordinates for this place?", and Girard lies to him right then and there, from the beginning. He gives him coordinates that are off by a couple degrees or so, which would put the location wrong by several tens of miles or so (and that is fully consistent with what we observed). The wrong coordinates are in Soon's mind from the start, from the start associated with the rift's location. He goes to his grave never realizing they are wrong.

[archon_huskie]

That's been bugging me since I posted it though. How much knowledge is represented by a rank in knowledge: geography? or should that be a random fact I know from INT. I may know five or six ways to find true north, but I never earned the Orienteering merit badge in scouting. But I did take a course in geography in college. So should I have the knowledge to recognize false co-ordinates? would I be better off that Soon in this situation?

I don't think that I could even if I did have equivalent ranks in Knowledge: Geography.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's been bugging me since I posted it though. How much knowledge is represented by a rank in knowledge: geography? or should that be a random fact I know from INT. I may know five or six ways to find true north, but I never earned the Orienteering merit badge in scouting. But I did take a course in geography in college. So should I have the knowledge to recognize false co-ordinates? would I be better off that Soon in this situation?

I don't think that I could even if I did have equivalent ranks in Knowledge: Geography.

While there is some room for discussion in how much knowledge 1 rank would give you, the problem here is much worse, but also easier to see. This is a set of coordinates on Earth:

32º 55' 18''N
10º 26' 19''E

I tell you that those are the coordinates for Tripoli, Libya. Did I lie to you? Does your far-more-knowledge-of-geography-than-Soon help in any way?

(When you decide if I have or not, you can check your answer here (http://itouchmap.com/latlong.html))

Grey Wolf

[archon_huskie]

I live in Chicago, IL. The starchart I bought in Wisconsin is for plus or minus 5º of 40º North. So the point is South of were I live. I know that the Equator is well below the Sahara and even into the Congo. 32º 55' 18''N is reasonable for Tripoli, Libya.

The Prime Meridian goes through Greenwich, England, and goes south through France. Libya is South of France. But Italy is west of tripoli and Rome Italy is at 12ºE. So 10º 26' 19''E is reasonable for Tripoli, Libya.

So I can accept 32º 55' 18''N, 10º 26' 19''E as being around Tripoli, Libya. But I can't pinpoint it further. You could be off by a few minutes. You could put me in the middle of the Mediterranean or the middle of the Desert.

But I will accept it as being around the right location and not blatantly the wrong side of the world.

Now I will check if I am right.

[archon_huskie]

Yup I am off.

The Latitude is right, but it was three degrees off. I was thinking that Libya was further West than it is. For some reason I was thinking that the country was directly south of France, when it is really South of Italy.

It is about where Tripoli is. Same continent, near the same coast, But It sure ain't within walking distance.

So this can tell us something about Soon. Even if he had one or two ranks in Knowledge Geography he could still have been fooled. Especially if he never bothered to double check his information, which since he kept his oath, he would never have had a reason to.

[EvilJames]

This has probably all been said but I think it's all been said in pieces so to put it all together.
-Soon has been to windy canyon.
-Soon has no idea what windy canyons coordinates are when he gets there
- Draketooth gives Soon fake coordinates
-Soon has no knowledge that those coordinates are anything but correct nor any reason to think otherwise.
-Soon would realize the coordinates were false when he arrived at them if he went.
-Soon never broke his promise and went to the coordinates.
-Therefor soon continued to have no reason to doubt that the coordinates were anything but genuine.

That's all there is to it. The fake out was never discovered in Soon's lifetime because the fake out never mattered in Soon's lifetime.
Soon certainly could have found the windy canyon eventually since he had been there and it was well known. However he would have ended up at the false coordinates first, since he had no reason to doubt them. This would have alerted Draketooth and his people and possibly exploded Soon. That's all that it needs to do.

[BenjCano]

Have you ever seen the show Survivorman? Moving around by foot (and I include horses/camels/whatever in that term) in semi-remembered locations isn't the easiest thing in the world after all.

It's why so many people do in fact end up getting lost and dying, alone in the outdoors.

This has happened to exactly 0 adventurers since the phrase, "I take ten on this Survival check" was invented.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This has happened to exactly 0 adventurers since the phrase, "I take ten on this Survival check" was invented.

You cannot take 10 on a desert trip, only in locales where you can find plentiful food and water.

GW

[factotum]

Also, taking ten is only really useful if you can actually succeed at the skill check when doing so--if the DM decides that your character with no ranks in Survival needs to make a DC 20 check to find food and water, well, they're going hungry that night!

[BenjCano]

You cannot take 10 on a desert trip, only in locales where you can find plentiful food and water.

GW

[Citation needed]


Also, taking ten is only really useful if you can actually succeed at the skill check when doing so--if the DM decides that your character with no ranks in Survival needs to make a DC 20 check to find food and water, well, they're going hungry that night!

No, it's a DC 10 to forage while travelling. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Survival_Skill)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

[Citation needed]
"When your character is not being threatened or distracted, you may choose to take 10.".

Being in a desert is threatening to your character - you are unlikely to die while in a forest or plain, but not so in the desert.

Not to mention that taking 10 to forage in a desert will produce no food, unless you have a very high skill modifier, since it is at least challenging to find food and especially water in the desert.

As before, you seem to underestimate just how difficult it is to travel a desert.

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

Rules Compendium: p99: Living off the land:

"This DC increases by 5 for inhospitable lands, such as a desert, and by 10 for barren lands, including the ocean for nonaquatic creatures".

So, an "inhospitable" desert would require DC15 checks, and a "barren" desert (maybe one like Death Valley or the Sahara?) would require DC20 checks.

[Unisus]

So ok, let's assume you could take 10 on the survival check. Now you have plenty of food and water to survive the years until you die of old age, while searching the desert for a location...

What - since when does survival mean that you get to a special location you are headed to?

[BenjCano]

Being in a desert is threatening to your character - you are unlikely to die while in a forest or plain, but not so in the desert.


That is not what being threatened means in the context of D&D rules, GW. Not even close. To threaten is to be able to attack in melee without moving from your current space. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_threaten&alpha=)



Not to mention that taking 10 to forage in a desert will produce no food, unless you have a very high skill modifier, since it is at least challenging to find food and especially water in the desert.


The Survival rules do not differentiate for terrain type (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Survival_Skill). Sorry.

[hamishspence]

D&D wiki is an unreliable source at the best of times.

[factotum]

No, it's a DC 10 to forage while travelling. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Survival_Skill)

And any DM who says that the DC check for foraging is the same in the middle of a desert as it is in the middle of a cultivated wheat field clearly has no clue how to play the game. If I was to pick you up and drop you in the middle of the Sahara, do you seriously believe you would have as much chance of surviving through foraging as you would if I dropped you on the outskirts of Boston?

[BenjCano]

Rules Compendium: p99: Living off the land:

"This DC increases by 5 for inhospitable lands, such as a desert, and by 10 for barren lands, including the ocean for nonaquatic creatures".

So, an "inhospitable" desert would require DC15 checks, and a "barren" desert (maybe one like Death Valley or the Sahara?) would require DC20 checks.

Rules compendium is for 4th edition. OotS takes place in 3.5-ish, if I'm not mistaken.

[BenjCano]

So ok, let's assume you could take 10 on the survival check. Now you have plenty of food and water to survive the years until you die of old age, while searching the desert for a location...

What - since when does survival mean that you get to a special location you are headed to?

Check out what you can do for with a DC 15 Survival check. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Survival_Skill) Not get lost.

[Gray Mage]

Rules compendium is for 4th edition. OotS takes place in 3.5-ish, if I'm not mistaken.

Actually, there's one for 3.5 too. (http://www.amazon.com/Compendium-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/078694725X)

[hamishspence]

Rules compendium is for 4th edition.

Nope: 3.5 has a Rules Compendium too.
EDIT: Swordsaged.

Also- Survival checks to avoid getting lost- vary depending on the terrain and conditions- see books like Sandstorm, Frostburn, Stormwrack, Underdark, etc.

[Unisus]

Check out what you can do for with a DC 15 Survival check. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Survival_Skill) Not get lost.

And how exactly is "not get lost" equal to "find a location somewhere"?

[BenjCano]

And any DM who says that the DC check for foraging is the same in the middle of a desert as it is in the middle of a cultivated wheat field clearly has no clue how to play the game.

I love it when people on the Internet up and say that other people have no idea how to play the game because the rules say something that challenges your suspension of disbelief. Magic, dragons, undead, flumphs...no, the one thing that makes you call BS someone's understanding of the game is an unrealistically easy time of surviving in a desert environment.

[BenjCano]

And how exactly is "not get lost" equal to "find a location somewhere"?

Missing a place you've once been because of environmental obstacles is pretty much the definition of being lost, isn't it?

[archon_huskie]

All of those books and sources are trumped by "Whatever the DM says the DC is."

Unless you have rule lawyers who find it fun to nit-pick the rules and the DM at the table. But my experience is that only the most die-hard rule-lawyers find that fun.

[hamishspence]

Missing a place you've once been because of environmental obstacles is pretty much the definition of being lost, isn't it?
Nope- Lost means not knowing where you yourself are.

The Order didn't find Soon's Gate the first time- yet they still knew where they were, and safely navigated back to town.

[Unisus]

Missing a place you've once been because of environmental obstacles is pretty much the definition of being lost, isn't it?

Now, the same is true for not finding a place that you know must be there. So if i know that in the middle of a forest there is a magically hidden temple, i go right into the forest and take 15 on the survival check? For, you know, ithen i can't get lost and have to find my way, no matter how hard that would be.

[BenjCano]

Now, the same is true for not finding a place that you know must be there. So if i know that in the middle of a forest there is a magically hidden temple, i go right into the forest and take 15 on the survival check? For, you know, ithen i can't get lost and have to find my way, no matter how hard that would be.

Given my previously stated dislike of turning a D&D game into a travelogue, I would give you that DC 15 Survival check and let you make your way to the temple, sure.

[Unisus]

But that makes any skills you'd need to navigate somehow useless...

[Kish]

Yeah, I don't actually have a problem with "I don't like dealing with having trouble finding things, so you'll always find whatever you're looking for automatically" as a house rule, but I hope you warn your players away from the Survival skill and give any rangers something to compensate for the useless Track feat.

[Shale]

Even under that house rule, you'd still need five ranks in Survival or a +5 Wisdom mod (or some combination totaling +5) to take 10 on the navigation check. Soon demonstrably didn't have Survival ranks and he wasn't in a WIS class.

Not to mention the circumstance penalty for working from misleading coordinates; he'd have to not only find the place properly, but, when he encountered difficulty, realize it was the map, not his memory, that was misleading.

[Aquillion]

Girard doing the mapping, and Soon not being paranoid enough to suspect any deception, does explain why he never bothered to write down the coordinates himself. But Soon still should have known the approximate location of the gate from memory, and the location Girard gave him is hundreds of miles away. It just doesn't compute that Soon wouldn't have noticed such a huge discrepancy.Here's another thought:

We know Girard underestimated Soon. Perhaps Soon did notice the discrepancy, but said nothing because he felt that the terms of his oath wouldn't allow it. Perhaps he chose to trust Girard, a companion, even when it seemed extremely dubious to him. Perhaps he feared that keeping the real coordinates could be dangerous, and decided that if Girard wanted to use deception to protect his gate (even against Soon), that was his own choice.

(Indeed, in retrospect the fact that Serini violated the oath and wrote down the exact location of Girard's gate proved to be a huge danger, so Soon knowingly accepting Girard's false location without commenting on it wouldn't necessarily have been such a bad idea, especially since the idea of using the actual location would have been an unthinkable violation of his oath to him -- there was no reason for him to point out Girard's obvious lie.)

[MReav]

Even under that house rule, you'd still need five ranks in Survival or a +5 Wisdom mod (or some combination totaling +5) to take 10 on the navigation check. Soon demonstrably didn't have Survival ranks and he wasn't in a WIS class.

Paladins need Wis to cast spells. Plus, he was older, so he would have age bonuses to Wisdom.

[SaintRidley]

Paladins need Wis to cast spells. Plus, he was older, so he would have age bonuses to Wisdom.

But the Wis a paladin needs can be bought. They have more important ability scores (Strength, Constitution, Charisma) to worry about first, especially since Paladin spellcasting only goes up to fourth level spells (meaning he only needs a 14 Wisdom max).

[Aldrakan]

Given my previously stated dislike of turning a D&D game into a travelogue, I would give you that DC 15 Survival check and let you make your way to the temple, sure.

Okay, well that's 100% fine. But that's not what the rules say, and it in no way proscribes another DM from making it work differently. So I'm not really sure what your point is anymore, because it seems to boil down to "if I were the DM for the OotS campaign, being forced to use the scenario Rich wrote, but able to DM according to my personal preferences, finding the gates wouldn't be a problem".

[Olinser]

Given my previously stated dislike of turning a D&D game into a travelogue, I would give you that DC 15 Survival check and let you make your way to the temple, sure.

I wouldn't.

Your DC 15 survival check means that you aren't lost, and know where you are well enough that you can find your way out of the forest and back to civilization in a reasonable amount of time.

Finding your way to a specific destination is something else entirely.

[SaintRidley]

Given my previously stated dislike of turning a D&D game into a travelogue, I would give you that DC 15 Survival check and let you make your way to the temple, sure.

That works in a game.

But this is not a game. It does not work in a story.

And this is a story.

[MReav]

But the Wis a paladin needs can be bought. They have more important ability scores (Strength, Constitution, Charisma) to worry about first, especially since Paladin spellcasting only goes up to fourth level spells (meaning he only needs a 14 Wisdom max).

Skills can be bought too. Belkar has a ring of +20 Jumping. Soon could easily invest in Item +5 is a mere 2500 GP, since he's an epic paladin with strong connections to Azure City's rulers. The point is that Paladins don't want to be dumping Wisdom and getting items to help survive a desert isn't that much for an epic character.

[brionl]

Speaking of getting lost or not...
I was watching a show about dogs last night and an elderly lady in England went to take a shortcut through a small patch of woods. She was lost for 3 days and 2 nights until the search dogs found her.

This was not the middle of some major wilderness preserve, it was settled lands. She just went one bus stop too far, and was going to cut through the woods instead of waiting for the next bus going the other way. Dozens of people searched the woods for days and didn't spot her.

"Derp, they should have just taken 10."

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Survival rules do not differentiate for terrain type (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Survival_Skill). Sorry.

Yeah, when you are reduced to quoting from dandwiki, you clearly have no cards left on your hand.

I love, too, that you attempted this even after someone had already posted showing you to be wrong.

A trip through a desert cannot be the same as a trip through a field, and this has nothing to do with the fact that it is a fantasy game: I would be equally as weirded out if you told me that, to you, fighting a goblin is the same as fighting a dragon.


Given my previously stated dislike of turning a D&D game into a travelogue, I would give you that DC 15 Survival check and let you make your way to the temple, sure.

Yes, because to you a stroll through a forest is the exact same difficulty as trying to find a specific spot in the middle of the desert. But unfortunately, that is not what those skills are for. They are there to differentiate between people that know what they are doing when it comes to tricky terrains (Girard) and those that don't (Soon). By eliminating this distinction you arrive to your usual circular argument: "I state that Soon could find a spot in the middle of the desert, because I put no value at all in the skills required to find said spot, and thus Soon could find it even without the required ranks". However, as an argument to try and win anyone else over to your position it is rather weak. Soon could not find the spot without helped, because he had no ranks, and those ranks, if they are to mean something, most definitely apply to traveling a very large desert.

Grey Wolf

[EvilJames]

Given my previously stated dislike of turning a D&D game into a travelogue, I would give you that DC 15 Survival check and let you make your way to the temple, sure.

And that's fine for you and your campaign, but that's not what happened here.

Anyway everyone seems to be arguing different things here the question was "How can soon not have known the location of the gate?"
This question has already been answered. He knew it was in the windy canyon but he did not know the exact coordinates of that canyon. He asked for them from draketooth who gave him fake ones. the coordinates don't mean anything to Soon so he has no reason to doubt them.
Had he broken his oath and gone to the gate he would have gone to the coordinates first since that's what he would have given to his navigator. He may have been able to find the canyon afterwards, but likely not before alerting draketooth.
That's all that mattered to draketooth. That's all the deception was required to do.

[Aquillion]

And that's fine for you and your campaign, but that's not what happened here.

Anyway everyone seems to be arguing different things here the question was "How can soon not have known the location of the gate?"
This question has already been answered. He knew it was in the windy canyon but he did not know the exact coordinates of that canyon. He asked for them from draketooth who gave him fake ones. the coordinates don't mean anything to Soon so he has no reason to doubt them.
Had he broken his oath and gone to the gate he would have gone to the coordinates first since that's what he would have given to his navigator. He may have been able to find the canyon afterwards, but likely not before alerting draketooth.
That's all that mattered to draketooth. That's all the deception was required to do.As I mentioned above, I think it's also worth considering the possibility that he knew or suspected that the coordinates were fake, but had no real reason to confront Draketooth about it, or any particular way to do it without breaking his own oath. He might have made a conscious decision to act like they were accurate because the alternatives were all terrible and there was nothing to be gained by preserving the accurate coordinates anyway -- not when he was sworn never to use them and Draketooth was clearly focused on using deception to conceal his gate.

[SaintRidley]

Skills can be bought too. Belkar has a ring of +20 Jumping. Soon could easily invest in Item +5 is a mere 2500 GP, since he's an epic paladin with strong connections to Azure City's rulers. The point is that Paladins don't want to be dumping Wisdom and getting items to help survive a desert isn't that much for an epic character.

Why waste gold on a skill when you have a guy who spent ranks? Especially when you have better uses to put that gold toward, like helping your Druid and Wizard buddies develop their epic spell to seal the rifts and creating the infrastructure to train and support a secret army of Paladins to protect the rift you're going to guard.

[factotum]

Magic, dragons, undead, flumphs...no, the one thing that makes you call BS someone's understanding of the game is an unrealistically easy time of surviving in a desert environment.

The critical difference being that dragons, flumps and undead are all part of the standard setting of the game, and I accept them because of that. I don't accept that any standard part of the game tells me I should easily be able to survive in places where I manifestly should not be able to. Let's say I create a D&D module where the evil temple is at the bottom of the ocean--would you let your players get there without even casting Water Breathing? If not, why is that different from letting them reach the middle of the hottest, most barren desert in the world without having any trouble at all?

[Waspinator]

Soon probably did write down notes about where the gate was. That doesn't mean that they were very useful in finding the exact spot of something in the middle of a desert. It also doesn't help that he's dead and the only specific information that we know he gave to his successor was the inaccurate coordinates that he was himself given.

[Scow2]

Soon certainly could have found the windy canyon eventually since he had been there and it was well known. However he would have ended up at the false coordinates first, since he had no reason to doubt them. This would have alerted Draketooth and his people and possibly exploded Soon. That's all that it needs to do.

Actually, there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the "Windy Canyon" was well-known (Or even existed) during the time of The Order of the Scribble. The location of the rift could have been open desert for all we know. Or, it might have been a normal canyon later enchanted out the wazoo to keep people away. (And discovered using spells like "Locate Object" or "Find the Path")

There's also the chance the canyon could have been buried by the sands entirely.

[EvilJames]

As I mentioned above, I think it's also worth considering the possibility that he knew or suspected that the coordinates were fake, but had no real reason to confront Draketooth about it, or any particular way to do it without breaking his own oath. He might have made a conscious decision to act like they were accurate because the alternatives were all terrible and there was nothing to be gained by preserving the accurate coordinates anyway -- not when he was sworn never to use them and Draketooth was clearly focused on using deception to conceal his gate.

Also perfectly viable as well.

Actually, there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that the "Windy Canyon" was well-known (Or even existed) during the time of The Order of the Scribble. The location of the rift could have been open desert for all we know. Or, it might have been a normal canyon later enchanted out the wazoo to keep people away. (And discovered using spells like "Locate Object" or "Find the Path")

There's also the chance the canyon could have been buried by the sands entirely.

Also possible I suppose. Although I would say it was at least reasonably well known since Tarquin knew where it was, but I guess that doesn't mean that it isn't a new feature. After all it does seem like the perfect place for an illusionist to hide something.

On the whole survival checks thing I don't think you can take 10 on survival to avoid getting lost or to forage in any terrain since you can't take 10 when failure has consequences and being lost and not having enough food and water or shelter are very real consequences.
However if you as the Dm just don't want to deal with the party being lost at the moment and get right to what ever plot you have you are free to do so. I generally DM on the fly for the most part so if my players get lost in the wilderness I can deal with it. (Used to do more straight forward plots but my players had a habit of being distracted by any pretty or interesting scenery that I might describe on their journey, so I either had to adapt or be less descriptive about the world they live in, an dwell I spent a lot of time on this world).

[konradknox]

Well, why do we even assume Soon did not know the approximate coordinates? All we know is Girard's paranoid rambling on the recording about his own assumption of Soon's ignorance. Girard assumed Soon was ignorant, and that it was Soon standing at the spot. But it was not Soon, it was OOTS. Real Soon probably never even thought to check on the legitimacy of the exact coordinates, he never violated the oath. He died and became a ghost martyr.

I mean, this whole thread assumes that Soon himself couldn't have found the way back to the rift. But that's not plausible at all, because Soon never tried to go back once the agreement was made. When OOTS set off to find the rift, Soon was already dead. The exact coordinates OOTS were given were incorrect, because Soon never bothered to check them.

[EvilJames]

That was pretty much my point in a nutshell.

[Olinser]

Also perfectly viable as well.


Also possible I suppose. Although I would say it was at least reasonably well known since Tarquin knew where it was, but I guess that doesn't mean that it isn't a new feature. After all it does seem like the perfect place for an illusionist to hide something.

On the whole survival checks thing I don't think you can take 10 on survival to avoid getting lost or to forage in any terrain since you can't take 10 when failure has consequences and being lost and not having enough food and water or shelter are very real consequences.
However if you as the Dm just don't want to deal with the party being lost at the moment and get right to what ever plot you have you are free to do so. I generally DM on the fly for the most part so if my players get lost in the wilderness I can deal with it. (Used to do more straight forward plots but my players had a habit of being distracted by any pretty or interesting scenery that I might describe on their journey, so I either had to adapt or be less descriptive about the world they live in, an dwell I spent a lot of time on this world).

Looking at their relative ages then and the current time, it appears as though the Order of the Scribble sealed the Rifts somewhere around 50 years ago.

If Girard created the Windy Canyon wholesale (or enchanted it from a nondescript canyon), 50 years is realistically 3 human generations - plenty of time for it to gain the moniker of 'Windy Canyon'.

There is no reason that it had to be there when the Scribble sealed the rift.

[Tris]

Looking at their relative ages then and the current time, it appears as though the Order of the Scribble sealed the Rifts somewhere around 50 years ago.

If Girard created the Windy Canyon wholesale (or enchanted it from a nondescript canyon), 50 years is realistically 3 human generations - plenty of time for it to gain the moniker of 'Windy Canyon'.

There is no reason that it had to be there when the Scribble sealed the rift.

I think it's longer than 50 years because Shojo looks older than 50.

[Olinser]

I think it's longer than 50 years because Shojo looks older than 50.

It can't be too much longer - Dorukan was still alive and pretty spry just 6 months before current time.

[Tris]

It can't be too much longer - Dorukan was still alive and pretty spry just 6 months before current time.

That's true.

[Shale]

It's about 70 years; Shojo was a kid playing by his father's throne when Soon handed over control of the city, and died in his mid-70s. Dorukan presumably used magic or the Extended Lifespan feat to live a really long time - or just rolled 20s on his Maximum Age modifier.

[MReav]

Why waste gold on a skill when you have a guy who spent ranks? Especially when you have better uses to put that gold toward, like helping your Druid and Wizard buddies develop their epic spell to seal the rifts and creating the infrastructure to train and support a secret army of Paladins to protect the rift you're going to guard.

When you're an epic level character, 2500 GP is chump change.

I think we're not on the same page, SaintRidley. I was responding to Shale's assertion that Soon couldn't navigate a desert as he was not a Wis class and didn't have the skills to, while I was pointing out that not only are paladins at least demi-wisdom classes, but upping one's Survival skill isn't that big a deal when you're at a level that can treat +5 Rings of Protection like chump change.


It's about 70 years; Shojo was a kid playing by his father's throne when Soon handed over control of the city, and died in his mid-70s.

nitpick: Soon handed over command of the Sapphire Guard. Shojo's father already ruled the city. He was an influential member of Azure City, since they sent him on a diplomatic mission with the elves (hence why he was in the Elven Lands where the first discovered Rift was), but not the ruler.

[EvilJames]

Looking at their relative ages then and the current time, it appears as though the Order of the Scribble sealed the Rifts somewhere around 50 years ago.

If Girard created the Windy Canyon wholesale (or enchanted it from a nondescript canyon), 50 years is realistically 3 human generations - plenty of time for it to gain the moniker of 'Windy Canyon'.

There is no reason that it had to be there when the Scribble sealed the rift.

I meant it was well known now, but i guess that isn't really important. As for Dorukon's age; he was a wizard and wizard's live precisely as long as they want to. Powerful ones do at least.

[SaintRidley]

When you're an epic level character, 2500 GP is chump change.

I think we're not on the same page, SaintRidley. I was responding to Shale's assertion that Soon couldn't navigate a desert as he was not a Wis class and didn't have the skills to, while I was pointing out that not only are paladins at least demi-wisdom classes, but upping one's Survival skill isn't that big a deal when you're at a level that can treat +5 Rings of Protection like chump change.

May be chump change for the epic character, but it goes a long way toward outfitting another couple new Paladin initiates.

By the way, at this stage I'm mostly offering counterpoints because it's fun.

[Unisus]

"Lord Soon, we're approaching the exact coordinates you gave us for navigating here, but there is no sign of any canyon." "That's no problem - this old companion of mine who awaits us here is an epic illusionist, we will find him when we're there."

Ok, when exactly should Soon realise, that the coordinates are wrong? Even if he would go himself to Girards Gate, he'd not go alone and probably someone able to navigate would lead him.

[archon_huskie]

May be chump change for the epic character, but it goes a long way toward outfitting another couple new Paladin initiates.

By the way, at this stage I'm mostly offering counterpoints because it's fun.

And that's true. He died an Epic paladin. but he was not an epic paladin when he first visited the Gate.