What tier is Wilder?

[Septimus Faber]

I'm going to be playing a Wilder soon, and I wondered where people would rank it on JaronK's tier system? It doesn't seem to be there. If possible, can people give reasons for where they put it as well?
Thanks.

[Piggy Knowles]

I would argue low tier 2, going by this definition:


Tier 2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes. Still potentially campaign smashers by using the right abilities, but at the same time are more predictable and can't always have the right tool for the job. If the Tier 1 classes are countries with 10,000 nuclear weapons in their arsenal, these guys are countries with 10 nukes. Still dangerous and easily world shattering, but not in quite so many ways. Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility.

They're even less flexible than the psion (also a tier 2, but a higher t2), but have access to all the same tricks (plus a few of their own).

[Yora]

It does have spells, but the number is really very limited and the power comes from being really good with these spells.
It's clearly lower than a sorcerer, but not sure if it would be 2 or 3. Either a low 2, or a very high 3.

[Psyren]

Low 2 or High 3 fits. Leaning towards 3 due to how bloody limited they are.

Definitely 3 without Expanded Knowledge/Hidden Talent.

[J-H]

Educated Wilder helps bring it up... it's a Web ACF that lets you swap Volatile Mind for some free EKs.

[AmberVael]

I think of Wilder as tier 3 myself. Or at the very least, I feel it is distinct from other tier 2 classes- it is quite inferior to Psion and Sorcerer, which I tend to think of as the iconic tier 2s.

Educated Wilder helps a bit, but its still way behind in options, and there's really only so much that you can do to diversify its power list.

[Snowbluff]

It's definitely T2. If we argue about capacity putting it below T2, class tiers like Druid are thrown into question after we ask "Do they get enough good spells?"

[Amphetryon]

As others said, it's either at the very pinnacle of Tier 3, or it's Tier 2.

[Psyren]

Druids know their entire list though. And the Psion general list on its own is pretty lacking (you're a pure caster who can't even fly or teleport!) Which leaves you to rely on EK, and no bonus feats to spend on it (without an ACF). Your few precious feats are also needed for metapsionics, a psicrystal/focus-related stuff, Enervation Endurance etc.

Educated gets it to T2 I would agree.

[AmberVael]

you're a pure caster who can't even fly or teleport!

...oddly, while the general psion list contains neither fly or teleport, it does contain Overland Flight and Greater Teleport. So you have to wait a bit longer to get them, admittedly, but it makes the nomad a bit more underwhelming.

[strider24seven]

If we argue about capacity putting it below T2, class tiers like Druid are thrown into question after we ask "Do they get enough good spells?"

"Is the Player's Handbook allowed?"

Unless the answer to the above question is "no," then the only possible answer to your question is ::headdesk::

[Psyren]

...oddly, while the general psion list contains neither fly or teleport, it does contain Overland Flight and Greater Teleport. So you have to wait a bit longer to get them, admittedly, but it makes the nomad a bit more underwhelming.

My mistake - you can't teleport until 16 or fly until 12 :smalltongue:

And no, the Nomad is not underwhelming by a long shot.

[Fouredged Sword]

Access to reality revision and psychic reformation put core wilder at tier 2. At 20th level any situation can be solved with an application of their power.

One could even argue that they are almost as flexible than a wizard a high level as any psi/wild power is a 10 min casting time and 50exp away from being on their list.

I personally list them as VERY low tier 1, as they have access to powers that invalidate situations and break the game, and can change their powers when needed.

This is a fine example of the realities of the game though. While wilder are tier 1, they are also a weak class. They can theoretically do anything, but in practice they end up low tier 2, or tier 3 based on power selection.

[Scow2]

My mistake - you can't teleport until 16 or fly until 12 :smalltongue: The tongue seems to indicate you think the delayed access is trivial. Given that Sorcerers get Flight at 6th level and Teleport at 8, and the wilder doesn't get either of those until 2 or 6 levels after 90% of campaigns implode, that's a serious crimp on versatility and power.

[Psyren]

The tongue seems to indicate you think the delayed access is trivial.

It's the opposite actually - the tongue is meant to show that, even though Wilders get these abilities eventually, they get them so much later than other casters that they may as well not get them at all in most games.

[AmberVael]

It probably skews my judgment that I tend to play higher level games.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend that the Wilder pick up a flight power given that getting a flight speed isn't too terribly hard by other methods. Better to save your limited power slots for something more rare.

[Snowbluff]

"Is the Player's Handbook allowed?"

Unless the answer to the above question is "no," then the only possible answer to your question is ::headdesk::

The sorcerer gets 3 spells of ninth level, with option for incredible game-breaking power (Ice Assassin, Wish, and Shapechange). To my knowledge, the Druid only gets one of those 3 game changers innately. Heck, a Sorcerer can get Wish from Planar Binding before a Druid can Shapechange into something for it.

Not that I am saying Druid isn't powerful, just that it's T2 if Wilder is T3. Which would only be the case if we discard the very rules the system is built on.

Also, a headdesk to you, and an unsalted wheat cracker. (::)

[Psyren]

It probably skews my judgment that I tend to play higher level games.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend that the Wilder pick up a flight power given that getting a flight speed isn't too terribly hard by other methods. Better to save your limited power slots for something more rare.

My Wilders tend to go into Soul Manifester (I never surge above 3 anyway, and I like to put that high Cha to use making UMD and UPD checks) so I typically end up getting utility stuff like flight and telepathy from melds. Open Chakra is a great power to surge/extend too.

[strider24seven]

The sorcerer gets 3 spells of ninth level, with option for incredible game-breaking power (Ice Assassin, Wish, and Shapechange). To my knowledge, the Druid only gets one of those 3 game changers innately. Heck, a Sorcerer can get Wish from Planar Binding before a Druid can Shapechange into something for it.

Not that I am saying Druid isn't powerful, just that it's T2 if Wilder is T3. Which would only be the case if we discard the very rules the system is built on.

Also, a headdesk to you, and an unsalted wheat cracker. (::)

Druid gets Shapechange a level earlier, has Polymorph-lite as a class feature, has a fighter as a class feature, and still has an excellent spell list (of which it knows all spells) to boot.

By your logic, Cleric should be Tier 3 or lower, because it gets none of those three spells. While I am being facetious, as they do get Miracle, I will also point you to Why Tier 1s are in Tier 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938.0), where 9th level spells are actually noted under "Cons" for Druid. Druid spells are not known for their overt gamebreaking potential, Shapechange excluded of course, but for their not-so-subtle ability to steamroll encounters on a more down-to-earth level, with staples like Entangle, Keplstrand, and Bite of the Were-X.

Druid is considered the top of Tier 1 until 17th in Core for a reason: others can bearly compete with the druid's ability to summon bears to supplement his bear companion whilst simultaneously being a bear himself.

[Rebel7284]

Druid gets Shapechange a level earlier, has Polymorph-lite as a class feature, has a fighter as a class feature, and still has an excellent spell list (of which it knows all spells) to boot.

By your logic, Cleric should be Tier 3 or lower, because it gets none of those three spells. While I am being facetious, as they do get Miracle, I will also point you to Why Tier 1s are in Tier 1 (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938.0), where 9th level spells are actually noted under "Cons" for Druid. Druid spells are not known for their overt gamebreaking potential, Shapechange excluded of course, but for their not-so-subtle ability to steamroll encounters on a more down-to-earth level, with staples like Entangle, Keplstrand, and Bite of the Were-X.

Druid is considered the top of Tier 1 until 17th in Core for a reason: others can bearly compete with the druid's ability to summon bears to supplement his bear companion whilst simultaneously being a bear himself.


I see what you did there :smallwink:

Overall, I agree, druid packs much more raw power than a wizard, and it takes wizards a while to catch up. A pure wizard can indeed take until level 17, but wizards do have more options that can speed up the process. Metamagic abuse with Incantrars being the really glaring one.

[strider24seven]

I see what you did there :smallwink:

Overall, I agree, druid packs much more raw power than a wizard, and it takes wizards a while to catch up. A pure wizard can indeed take until level 17, but wizards do have more options that can speed up the process. Metamagic abuse with Incantrars being the really glaring one.

Minor nitpick: the male of Incantatrix would but Incantator.
I'd say that, if we include PrCs, Planar Shepherd can potentially be on-par with Incantatrix, depending on your choice of plane. Of course, other Druid PrCs tend to be traps.

Other than that, I couldn't agree more.

[Chronos]

Qualitatively, a wilder is the same as a psion: They both have the same list of powers available, they both select a limited number known of those powers, and they both use their powers spontaneously drawing from their pool of power points. The tier system is based on these sorts of qualitative features, so psions and wilders are the same tier.

That said, nothing says that two classes in the same tier must be equally powerful or otherwise equally optimal. Psions are better than wilders, mostly because their limited number of powers known is a larger number than for wilders. But they are both still limited.

On the topic of the druid's spell list, they're definitely lacking in the 9th-level spell department. Restricting to Core for the sake of simplicity, wizards get four of the game-breakingly broken spells, Gate, Astral Projection, Shapechange, and Wish, plus slightly-less-broken gems like Disjunction, Dominate Monster, Shades, and Time Stop. Clerics get three, Gate, Astral Projection, and Miracle, plus possibly more from their domains. Druids get only one, Shapechange.

Expanding out to other books, Wizards gain additional game-breakers like Genesis, Ice Assassin, and Mindrape. While druids do definitely gain some nice spells, they don't really have anything that compares with those.

[Snowbluff]

Clerics can cast Shapechange, Timestop, Wish, and Planar Binding.

Power is not how well you fair in combat yourself. The simple fact of the matter is stronger classes don't steamroll fights, they steamroll the game. If you need a Mindraped Ice Assassin of an Atropal, you are simply out of luck if you are a druid. Being a bear is great, but a bear is only so good.

[Mithril Leaf]

I like to think of Wilder's as the pinnacle of tier 4 actually. They can do one thing exceptionally well (like a barbarian ubercharger), but fail when their limited abilities cannot come into play.

[sonofzeal]

Clerics can cast Shapechange, Timestop, Wish, and Planar Binding.

Power is not how well you fair in combat yourself. The simple fact of the matter is stronger classes don't steamroll fights, they steamroll the game. If you need a Mindraped Ice Assassin of an Atropal, you are simply out of luck if you are a druid. Being a bear is great, but a bear is only so good.
Druids get Shapechange, and Shapechange abuse can potentially lead to having a Mindraped Ice Assassin of an Atropal with a little effort.

[Snowbluff]

Druids get Shapechange, and Shapechange abuse can potentially lead to having a Mindraped Ice Assassin of an Atropal with a little effort.

Which is considerably more effort (and probably book allowance) than the next to no effort of the Sorc/Wiz.

That is, if it even works. What abilities you actually get are very limited and explicit. However, I'd like to see how within the confines of the rules one would do this.

[JusticeZero]

I'd put them on the upper end of T4, typically more powerful than many T3's. One doesn't migrate up in tiers as power levels move, as the tiers mean specific things. A T4 who can curb stomp a T2 does not magically become a T2 character. They're just a really good T4.

[TuggyNE]

Me, I would peg them as very nearly the weakest T2 out there: by definition, they have the potential for maybe one or at most two game-breaking tricks at most levels (because they have full manifesting from a good list), which means it's impossible for them to be T3 or below.

The tier system does not attempt to classify all possible characteristics and ramifications of classes, so Wilders are just one of those moderately counter-intuitive results that arises from simplification.

[olentu]

Which is considerably more effort (and probably book allowance) than the next to no effort of the Sorc/Wiz.

That is, if it even works. What abilities you actually get are very limited and explicit. However, I'd like to see how within the confines of the rules one would do this.

Eh, combining some free wishes for some scrolls and the use item special ability to pass use magic device checks should do the trick.

[Rubik]

I say they're an oddity, much like the truenamer (but for a different reason). They can be game-breakingly powerful in few ways (thus, T2), but those are about the only things they can do (thus, T4). And they manage to somehow be both without really hitting the versatility needed for T3 or fully hitting T2 without large amounts of optimization.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Wilder's are clearly less versatile than Psions. Stock, I'm tempted to knock them down a tier, since they have about a third the powers known of a Psion. It's a hard choice though since you select all highly versatile powers, Educated Wilder helps a lot as can a well chosen Mantle via Mantled Wilder. Freedom gets you access to Fly and Teleport while Natural World gets you Metamorphasis as a fourth level ability, so ACF'd Wilder is easily tier 2. Also, as a psionic class they can take expanded knowledge which can be a gamechanger since Psionic abilities scale so well.

[Snowbluff]

Eh, combining some free wishes for some scrolls and the use item special ability to pass use magic device checks should do the trick.

If you are playing it like that, the Sorcerer is entirely more powerful than the Druid. They had cheap wishes for 5 levels at that point.

[olentu]

If you are playing it like that, the Sorcerer is entirely more powerful than the Druid. They had cheap wishes for 5 levels at that point.

Eh, when you are playing in circumstances where the ability to generate mindraped ice assassin atropals is a meaningful thing to consider I think you are already playing like that. But as I understand it the tier system in question considers many different levels of play.

[Flickerdart]

T2: Has as much raw power as the Tier 1 classes, but can't pull off nearly as many tricks, and while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes.


T3: Capable of doing one thing quite well, while still being useful when that one thing is inappropriate, or capable of doing all things, but not as well as classes that specialize in that area. Occasionally has a mechanical ability that can solve an encounter, but this is relatively rare and easy to deal with.


T4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength.

I'm really, really not seeing the Wilder as a T3 class. It's either T2 (since it can still do most of the psion's tricks, and psion is T2) or T4 (since it's pretty useless when none of its 11 powers apply to a situation). Given that the Wilder is rubbish at diversification and has very high-power options, T3 is not at all appropriate for it.

[Psyren]

Given that the Wilder is rubbish at diversification and has very high-power options, T3 is not at all appropriate for it.

Psionics doesn't need all that much diversification. Three blasting powers (Energy Ray, Concussion Blast and Swarm of Crystals) can, by themselves, get you through 90% of the fights in the game (especially surged), and they are all on the general list. They're also capable of utility, such as smashing through locks and the like. Thus, the Wilder fills "doing one thing quite well." All the rest of its powers can be dedicated to being "useful when that one thing is inappropriate." Thus, T3, even without EK/HT.

[Flickerdart]

Psionics doesn't need all that much diversification. Three blasting powers (Energy Ray, Concussion Blast and Swarm of Crystals) can, by themselves, get you through 90% of the fights in the game (especially surged), and they are all on the general list. They're also capable of utility, such as smashing through locks and the like. Thus, the Wilder fills "doing one thing quite well." All the rest of its powers can be dedicated to being "useful when that one thing is inappropriate." Thus, T3, even without EK/HT.
Blasting isn't a terribly good example of a class's potential, though. What if instead of Energy Ray, Concussion Blast, and Swarm of Crystals, that wilder took Psionic Grease, Ego Whip, and Id Insinuation (or one of the blast powers, in case it needed to kill something)? Those kind of abilities are up there with the low-level T1 staples.

[AmberVael]

Blasting isn't a terribly good example of a class's potential, though. What if instead of Energy Ray, Concussion Blast, and Swarm of Crystals, that wilder took Psionic Grease, Ego Whip, and Id Insinuation (or one of the blast powers, in case it needed to kill something)? Those kind of abilities are up there with the low-level T1 staples.

If they did that, they would have:

1) Spent two of their precious 11 powers on mind-affecting powers that will not be effective a significant amount of time.
2) Spent a potentially 3rd level or higher power or a feat to get a 2nd level power, 'cause they only get one second level power by default.

They could accomplish such an arsenal (and one extra 1st level power) by level 6... at which point a Swordsage could have three times as many maneuvers that can honestly be comparable in power and are limited only on a per encounter basis.

I may be slightly exaggerating the swordsage's power here, and the wilder does get better later on... but they do have some severe limitations.

[sonofzeal]

2) Spent a potentially 3rd level or higher power or a feat to get a 2nd level power, 'cause they only get one second level power by default.

For psi-types, this is rarely a major loss. By and large, augmentable low level psi powers are just high level ones in disguise.

[Psyren]

Blasting isn't a terribly good example of a class's potential, though. What if instead of Energy Ray, Concussion Blast, and Swarm of Crystals, that wilder took Psionic Grease, Ego Whip, and Id Insinuation (or one of the blast powers, in case it needed to kill something)? Those kind of abilities are up there with the low-level T1 staples.

1) Blasting is severely underrated on this forum, particularly psionic blasting which can change elements as needed, has no cap, and in the case of wilders, can go above the d4/d6 per level that magic blasting is usually stuck with even very early on. And all three blasts I listed have no saving throw. Damage may not be the best choice if you're alone, but how often does that really happen in D&D? When you can drop a cluster of enemies to single digits right before the archer full-attacks, it's functionally no different than rendering them all catatonic or helpless.

2) Grease isn't as good a choice for a Wilder since it can't be surged augmented. Ego Whip is, but the mind-affecting tag limits its usefulness later on, and ditto for Id Insinuation.

3) With Concussive Blast, Swarm of Crystals and an Energy Power of your choice, you can handle resistances/immunities of all kinds, doors and locks, swarms, fliers, undead, incorporeal attackers, and even sunder enemy weapons. You will be relevant in every single combat; all your other power choices become gravy at that point.

[AmberVael]

For psi-types, this is rarely a major loss. By and large, augmentable low level psi powers are just high level ones in disguise.

It's a major loss when you could have picked up something awesome instead of id insinuation, like dispel psionics, telekinetic force, time hop, or touchsight.

[Arkusus]

Honestly, I'd go with a versatile Tier 3. This is for two reasons... Tier 3s tend to focus on doing one thing really really well, which wilders ABSOLUTELY do, but this is at the expense of doing other things.

They are put behind Psions in two regards, first they get significantly fewer powers (Variant helps, but still doesn't make up the difference).

But secondly and perhaps more importantly, they take more levels to reach each new tier of spell. On top of that, they don't get a domain to call their own. Again, the variant helps with this bit, EK gives you a power one level lower than your max, which is ALREADY lower than a psion's. For instance, a Telepath Psion can get Dominate at level 7, but a Wilder couldn't get it till level 10. (must be able to cast a 5th level spell to EK a 4th level power)


And finally, when comparing ALL psionic characters to magic based characters, I tend to put Magic above Psionics for three reasons:
1: Magic can buff other party members
2: A lot of magic spells have no duration limit (Like Bestow Curse, or Blindness/Deafness)
3: There are a lot more materials for Magic.

It is for these reasons that a wizard is better than a psion, and a sorcerer is better than a Wilder. Even if the Wilder can do more damage at the same level.




... All that being said. I do love playing me a wilder. A lot more than a wizard truth be told, psionics are just so much FUN.

[Komatik]

Tier 3 =/= Can do one thing with overwhelming force. That is low Tier 2 or very, very high Tier 4.
Tier 3 == Is versatile and capable without being able to break the game. Wilders don't fit that at all.

The Tier 3 to Tier 2 boundary is weird in that it's possible for versatility to decrease when moving "up" that way.

Usually when moving up the tiers both raw power and effective versatility go up (primarily the latter, though - Fighter is more powerful than Warblade when optimized fully, but as much a one-trick pony as there is), but that boundary is the exception.

[Septimus Faber]

Qualitatively, a wilder is the same as a psion: They both have the same list of powers available, they both select a limited number known of those powers, and they both use their powers spontaneously drawing from their pool of power points. The tier system is based on these sorts of qualitative features, so psions and wilders are the same tier.

That said, nothing says that two classes in the same tier must be equally powerful or otherwise equally optimal. Psions are better than wilders, mostly because their limited number of powers known is a larger number than for wilders. But they are both still limited.

I would say (and this is just my opinion) that Wilders are better. Sure, for versatility, go Psion every time. But for raw power - Wilder. Wild Surge, Elude Touch and Surging Euphoria (not so bothered about Volatile Mind) are just some of the reasons why. Also, bigger hit dice, more skill points, WAY better class skill list, armour and shield proficiencies, and just thematic awesomeness all add up to make them a better class.

Before anyone points it out, by the way, I know raw power is not what the tier system measures.

[Psyren]

Tier 3 =/= Is versatile and capable without being able to break the game. Wilders don't fit that at all.

Wilders are "versatile and capable." I already showed how they can contribute to any fight in the game, and out of combat besides. They don't get enough of the Psion list to be T2, but the little they do have access to gets them to T3 easily. Also, Expanded Knowledge is a thing.

[Piggy Knowles]

Wilders are "versatile and capable." I already showed how they can contribute to any fight in the game, and out of combat besides. They don't get enough of the Psion list to be T2, but the little they do have access to gets them to T3 easily. Also, Expanded Knowledge is a thing.

This. Eleven powers off the psion list, going up to 9th-level powers, can make the wilder as versatile as the factotum even without delving into educated wilders and Expanded Knowledge. Of course, poor power selection choice could in turn make them far less versatile or useful, but that's the curse of the wilder.

I mean, you're talking about powers like Time Hop, Psychic Reformation, Major Creation, Greater Teleport, Temporal Acceleration, Contingency, Moment of Prescience, Affinity Field, Reality Revision and more. A well-built wilder probably won't have all of the above, but they'll have a decent smattering of them, along with tools to handle most situations. And when you add in EK...

I still maintain that they fall to the bottom of the tier 2 pile, rather than being tier 3, but to say that they're not versatile enough for tier 3 doesn't really hold water, IMO. Psychic Reformation on their power list alone means that any level they learn a new power is a level they can revise everything on their list.

[JusticeZero]

the little they do have access to gets them to T3 easily.
They simply don't have the flexibility under normal use to hit T3, period. With Psi reformation, they are T2; without it, they are T4; the tiers attempt to predict power level based on a rule of versatility, but Wilders simply throw around big enough numbers that it is completely reasonable for them to be T4 and still accepted as being more than capable of hanging with high end T3s. Wilders are not well determined by flexibility theory for the reason that they are by their nature one trick ponies, but their trick is really good and versatile, moreso than most of the other classes that map with Flexibility Theory.

[AmberVael]

They simply don't have the flexibility under normal use to hit T3, period.

By this logic, Warblade is probably not tier 3. Would you agree with that?

[JusticeZero]

I don't know a lot about ToB. The big thing it was supposed to do was to add more variety into the toolboxes of the classes using it. the Wilder, on the other hand, is pretty much all about not having very much variety in its abilities. I have a hard time putting a class that was designed to be inflexible into a category that is defined only by being flexible.

[AmberVael]

Ah. Well then, the point I'm trying to make is this-

The important part of Tome of Battle classes, that is, the abilities that give them versatility, are maneuvers. The Warblade gets 13 maneuvers, and can only access about half of those at a time.

This is number that is quite comparable to the Wilder's 11 powers. Add to this that maneuvers in the end are less powerful overall, and tend to be less varied than powers, and well, the Wilder has the edge in versatility.

In the end, a Wilder can blow up anything that looks at her funny, control sound, displace things in time, divine any information she wants, create objects from nothing, fly, remove your brainstem, teleport anyone anywhere, and step sideways in reality. This is not exactly a list as massive as a sorcerer's, but it is an impressive and versatile list of capabilities, certainly more than many classes can claim.

[HunterOfJello]

T2, but we are all tempted to rate it lower because of the extremely harsh low number of powers known. Since it can still gain access to extra powers in other ways and cherry pick 9th level powers, it gets into the T2 category while still generally being much less awesome than the rest.

All tiers generally assume a degree of optimization, so a wilder with non-effective or less versatile power choices will drop down in tiers just like any other spontaneous caster.

[TuggyNE]

They don't get enough of the Psion list to be T2

Er, what? T2 is defined by not getting enough T1 to be T1; T3 is not defined that way at all. Any access to gamebreaking abilities is enough to be T2, just like any number of successful nuke-building projects is enough to be in the Nuclear Club.

Unless you mean that Psion specializations are what makes Psions T2, I suppose, which I don't believe to be the case at all.

[Amphetryon]

Er, what? T2 is defined by not getting enough T1 to be T1; T3 is not defined that way at all. Any access to gamebreaking abilities is enough to be T2, just like any number of successful nuke-building projects is enough to be in the Nuclear Club.

Unless you mean that Psion specializations are what makes Psions T2, I suppose, which I don't believe to be the case at all.

Sort of. Dread Necromancers get access to minionmancery and fear-stacking effects that can break games not prepared to handle such things, for example. JaronK is on record as saying that T2 is sort of odd, and thinks that a couple classes could either be T1 or T3, but not T2, as an illustration of the 'unusual' nature of T2.

[Psyren]

They simply don't have the flexibility under normal use to hit T3, period.

You are quite simply wrong about Wilders, or have a different definition of T3 than JaronK uses. There's not much else to say.


Er, what? T2 is defined by not getting enough T1 to be T1; T3 is not defined that way at all. Any access to gamebreaking abilities is enough to be T2, just like any number of successful nuke-building projects is enough to be in the Nuclear Club.

I'm hesitant because (non-Educated) Wilders give up so much utility to access even one of those game-breaking tricks that it's hard to put them in that bracket. Still, I do admit you're right.

[strider24seven]

1) Blasting is severely underrated on this forum, particularly psionic blasting which can change elements as needed, has no cap, and in the case of wilders, can go above the d4/d6 per level that magic blasting is usually stuck with even very early on. And all three blasts I listed have no saving throw. Damage may not be the best choice if you're alone, but how often does that really happen in D&D? When you can drop a cluster of enemies to single digits right before the archer full-attacks, it's functionally no different than rendering them all catatonic or helpless.

2) Grease isn't as good a choice for a Wilder since it can't be surged augmented. Ego Whip is, but the mind-affecting tag limits its usefulness later on, and ditto for Id Insinuation.

3) With Concussive Blast, Swarm of Crystals and an Energy Power of your choice, you can handle resistances/immunities of all kinds, doors and locks, swarms, fliers, undead, incorporeal attackers, and even sunder enemy weapons. You will be relevant in every single combat; all your other power choices become gravy at that point.

I will have to disagree with you here, Pysren: I find blasting to be overrated on these forums. It is an inefficient use of actions for a caster, and is quite often inferior to mundane forms of blasting (Power Attack+Greatsword), particularly for psionic casters, who do not receive automatic scaling on their blasting powers. This, of course, does not apply if you have unlimited (Metamind 10+temporal reiteration) or regenerating (Azure Talent+Psycarnum Infusion or Bestow Power) Power Points. A good disabling spell is far more valuable to the team than an extra Xd6+Y damage, which may or may not disable one (or more) targets. If your party needs the extra damage (read: the beatsticks aren't pulling their weight or you are the beatstick), it's often better to cast a buff spell on yourself and then Polymorph/Metamorph into a Hydra or Firbolg (or Choker with Assume Supernatural Ability) and go to town. It (usually) does less damage up front, but does more damage per PP spent, and gives you the longevity that psionic casters desperately need. This is not to say, of course, that blasting is bad; sometimes it is necessary for the enemy wizard to die right now and you are unable to charge him, and it is very useful for disrupting spellcasters, and everyone should be able to deal some form of fire or acid damage, preferably with an attack roll of some kind, to deal with the common regenerators.

More on topic, unlike my snarky comments earlier in the thread:
Having played Wilders, Educated and otherwise, amongst varied-tier party members, I can say from anecdotal experience that Wilder feels like the rock-bottom of Tier 2 without the Educated variant. You still have game-breaking potential, the same as every other non-limited caster with 9ths, but the class is crippled by getting powers at a delayed progression AND having so few powers known. I felt small in the pants next to a Sorcerer. I was trying to squeeze every possible use out of every power I knew just to be useful in every situation. It helps when each psionic power can do double-, triple-, or even quadruple-duty, with outstanding examples being Metamorphosis (EK is so worth it here), Energy Missile (again EK), Time Hop, and Touchsight.

That being said, the Educated Wilder is a HUGE improvement to the class, knocking it solidly into Tier 2.

[Psyren]

I will have to disagree with you here, Pysren: I find blasting to be overrated on these forums. It is an inefficient use of actions for a caster, and is quite often inferior to mundane forms of blasting (Power Attack+Greatsword), particularly for psionic casters, who do not receive automatic scaling on their blasting powers.

When Power Attack + Greatsword can hit all enemies in a 120ft. line/60ft. cone/40ft. burst, swarms, fliers and bypass DR+AC+Hardness+Regeneration then I'll agree with you. Until then, I have to say I find this viewpoint simply irrational.



A good disabling spell is far more valuable to the team than an extra Xd6+Y damage, which may or may not disable one (or more) targets.

If your party goes on to damage those same targets, often they end up just as disabled/dead as if you had done a BFC spell. If the other party members have terrible initiative then I agree, control is far better, but I find this is rarely the case in practice; generally the monsters end up going first or going last, and even if they don't, you can always shuffle up the initiative by delaying/readying as needed.



If your party needs the extra damage (read: the beatsticks aren't pulling their weight or you are the beatstick), it's often better to cast a buff spell on yourself and then Polymorph/Metamorph into a Hydra or Firbolg (or Choker with Assume Supernatural Ability) and go to town.

This is a wonderful tactic in solo play and TO, but at actual tables (except in high-powered games) just ends up marginalizing the melee at best and provoking DM arms races to counter you at worst. I'd even rather go with BFC than shapeshifting into the spotlight, unless it was the only way to prevent a TPK.

[AmberVael]

That being said, the Educated Wilder is a HUGE improvement to the class, knocking it solidly into Tier 2.

An extra four powers... an extra 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th level power... are enough to be a 'huge improvement?' :smallconfused:

I mean, don't get me wrong- I know that Educated Wilder is worth it every time, and that it IS nice to get stuff off of other lists and to get some bonus powers, but I would think calling it a huge improvement that certainly changes its tier is well... inaccurate. It's a handful of powers half composed of low level stuff, and while power level matters a lot less to manifesters than to spellcasters, it's not like it is entirely irrelevant.

With Educated the Wilder still lags behind Psychic Warrior and Ardent in powers known, and neither of them are exactly loaded.

[Psyren]

An extra four powers... an extra 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th level power... are enough to be a 'huge improvement?' :smallconfused:

Bluntly, yes, because those powers can be discipline-only or from other lists entirely. If you were restricted to the wilder list then I would agree, but those off-list choices include too many gems.

And you actually get more than 4 powers when you consider psionic augmentation consolidation. For instance, picking Charm gets you both Charm Person and Charm Monster in one, while Astral Construct is good enough to be 9 powers in one. This alone adds a lot of versatility to a Wilder, both in and out of combat.

[Segev]

Weird question: Can Wild Surge be used on non-Wilder powers?

I know it's not generally going to be all that hot, since you'd probably be better off just taking +1 level of whatever non-Wilder class you were going for due to Wild Surge only giving back the +1 ML you'd have gotten from the class anyway (and spending a feat from Practiced Manifester for a net +2 is also a bit silly).

But would it work at all? I don't think Wilder says it only works on Wilder powers, but I could be missing a clause. I'm prone to that.

[Psyren]

Weird question: Can Wild Surge be used on non-Wilder powers?

Yes, it can be used on any power you can manifest - even powers that can't be augmented (though those gain less benefit.)

[strider24seven]

When Power Attack + Greatsword can hit all enemies,
Whirlwind Attack, or better yet, Whirling Blade.

in a 120ft. line/60ft. cone/40ft. burst
Sculpt Spell on above

swarms
Tiny swarms still die to damage, they just take half as much. Fine/Dimunitive swarms require a torch instead.

fliers
Fly spell or Jump check. Or a reach weapon if the fliers are melee (read: most of them).

and bypass DR+AC+Hardness+Regeneration
Only Regeneration has any real relevance, but I will address them all anyway:
DR - use a magic weapon, use an aligned weapon, use a transmuting weapon, or, best of all, just do more damage. Most DR is irrelevant for PA-based warriors. After all, what is -20 damage to a 100+ damage attack?
AC - use a magic weapon, get to-hit bonuses, get rerolls, or, best of all, use Wraithstrike+Shock Trooper.
Hardness - See DR
Regeneration - Use Trollbane.

then I'll agree with you. Until then, I have to say I find this viewpoint simply irrational.
You neglected to mention the only real issue with melee: concealment and miss chances, and the issues of the logistics of charging. These require a wizard and some creative thinking on the party's part.


If your party goes on to damage those same targets, often they end up just as disabled/dead as if you had done a BFC spell. If the other party members have terrible initiative then I agree, control is far better, but I find this is rarely the case in practice; generally the monsters end up going first or going last, and even if they don't, you can always shuffle up the initiative by delaying/readying as needed.

Except that if they are disabled, they are less able (and often unable) to damage or disable the party members. Whereas if they take Xd6+Y damage, they are still fully functional if that damage was not sufficient to kill them or knock them unconscious. If the latter, then they just get back up the next round if they have regeneration.



This is a wonderful tactic in solo play and TO, but at actual tables (except in high-powered games) just ends up marginalizing the melee at best and provoking DM arms races to counter you at worst. I'd even rather go with BFC than shapeshifting into the spotlight, unless it was the only way to prevent a TPK.

Unless of course you are the melee. The most versatile melees are casters, after all, and Wilders make fine melee beatsticks, particularly with Illithid Slayer and Sanctified Mind. While they don't often spec as Shock Troopers, they are still full casters and have a full suite of defensive abilities, and are capable of contributing outside of combat.

Edit:

An extra four powers... an extra 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th level power... are enough to be a 'huge improvement?' :smallconfused:

I mean, don't get me wrong- I know that Educated Wilder is worth it every time, and that it IS nice to get stuff off of other lists and to get some bonus powers, but I would think calling it a huge improvement that certainly changes its tier is well... inaccurate. It's a handful of powers half composed of low level stuff, and while power level matters a lot less to manifesters than to spellcasters, it's not like it is entirely irrelevant.

With Educated the Wilder still lags behind Psychic Warrior and Ardent in powers known, and neither of them are exactly loaded.

They can choose from any list - the ability to snag Metamorphosis, Energy Missile, or Schism, for example, is huge. Besides, Educated gives a 40% boost in powers known anyway.

[Psyren]

Whirlwind Attack, or better yet, Whirling Blade.

Sculpt Spell on above

How are you Sculpting Whirlwind Attack?
And isn't Whirling Blade a spell?



Tiny swarms still die to damage, they just take half as much. Fine/Dimunitive swarms require a torch instead.

1d3 damage per round to a Hellwasp Swarm will quickly leave your fighter a pile of pristine bones and gear, never mind the improvised penalty.



Fly spell or Jump check. Or a reach weapon if the fliers are melee (read: most of them).

How is the power-attacking greatsword fighter casting Fly?


Only Regeneration has any real relevance
....
You neglected to mention the only real issue with melee: concealment and miss chances

You just contradicted yourself. Also, AC is plenty relevant if your DM knows what he's doing (e.g. Scintillating Scales.)


Except that if they are disabled, they are less able (and often unable) to damage or disable the party members.

Death has a wonderful way of disabling enemies.



Whereas if they take Xd6+Y damage, they are still fully functional if that damage was not sufficient to kill them or knock them unconscious.

Obviously if you're blasting, you're going to be optimizing it. Didn't think that needed to be said, really.

[strider24seven]

How are you Sculpting Whirlwind Attack?
And isn't Whirling Blade a spell?
Why yes it is. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=whirling+blade&l=1) Sculpt is applied to Whirling Blade, not Whirlwind Attack.


1d3 damage per round to a Hellwasp Swarm will quickly leave your fighter a pile of pristine bones and gear, never mind the improvised penalty.

The hellwasp swarm is one of the corner cases where blasting is useful. The torch comment was meant as snark, and from now on I shall indicate that in blue.



How is the power-attacking greatsword fighter casting Fly?

Buy an item that grants fly. There are dozens. Or just bum one off the wizard if you can't afford one. Or be a Raptoran or Dragonborn. Or be a gish. If you can't figure out how to simultaneously have a fly speed and have power attack and wield a greatsword then... well..

This conversation can hold no purpose anymore.


You just contradicted yourself. Also, AC is plenty relevant if your DM knows what he's doing (e.g. Scintillating Scales.)

Let me rephrase:
Of the things you listed, only Regeneration has relevance. I thought it was quite clear that the italicized portion was implied.

Scillinating Scales turns AC from being a non-issue into a trivial issue. By the time it comes online for the plurality of enemies, if the melee has trouble hitting AC<30, then there is a problem with the party's dynamics.


Death has a wonderful way of disabling enemies.

I find that blasting with spells is an extremely inefficient way of causing death. I've only been able to do so to any real effect with Incantatrices and Orbs, and with 200% shadow reality Shadowcraft Magi. And stacking Quori Shards on Psions, but those only work on a few spells/day.


Obviously if you're blasting, you're going to be optimizing it. Didn't think that needed to be said, really.

Even if you are optimizing for blasting, the same amount of optimization can be used to greater effect with control magic.

Just to be clear - I'm not saying that blasting is not viable, or even a bad option. Only that it is extremely inefficient, especially at low levels. Precocious Apprentice+Fiery Burst is the only truly cost-effective blasting option before Metamagick'd Orb spells come online (IMO of course), at it rapidly loses effectiveness beyond 2nd level.

[Psyren]

Why yes it is. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=whirling+blade&l=1) Sculpt is applied to Whirling Blade, not Whirlwind Attack.

You said "above" but not that you only meant one.

Whirling Blade itself is a blast, and a pretty pathetic one at that. Furthermore, since it is resolved exactly like a melee attack, it's still useless against swarms, incorporeal etc. Any decent wilder can outperform it without even basic optimization, and don't need metamagic to affect a wide area either.



The hellwasp swarm is one of the corner cases where blasting is useful. The torch comment was meant as snark, and from now on I shall indicate that in blue.

But the fact that you're snarking "use a torch" means you agree with how screwed the melee would be in that scenario.

For the record, Hellwasps aren't a "corner case" as there are a multitude of Diminutive and Fine swarms out there, plus the DM can make his own seeing as swarm is a template.



Buy an item that grants fly. There are dozens.

Flying becomes relevant long before these items become affordable to most melee. For instance, core gives us Wings of Flying, clocking in at 54k, not affordable until quite a few levels after the Wilder is capable of not only taking down airborne foes but taking to the sky himself.


Or be a Raptoran or Dragonborn.

Oddly enough, a Wilder does not need a specific race to be relevant.


Let me rephrase:
Of the things you listed, only Regeneration has relevance.

That's clearer. I still disagree, mind you, but at least it's clearer.



Just to be clear - I'm not saying that blasting is not viable, or even a bad option.

Then we actually have no quarrel.

[Chronos]

How are you doing the 1d3 damage to the hellwasps, anyway? I assume it's not via a torch, since hellwasps resist fire.

[strider24seven]

You said "above" but not that you only meant one.

I meant the only applicable one. I thought that was obvious.


Whirling Blade itself is a blast, and a pretty pathetic one at that. Furthermore, since it is resolved exactly like a melee attack, it's still useless against swarms, incorporeal etc. Any decent wilder can outperform it without even basic optimization, and don't need metamagic to affect a wide area either.

The reason Whirling Blade is a good blast is because it is resolved like a melee attack, so you can apply things like Power Attack, Shock Trooper, etc. It's a bit rare to see a blaster deal 4-digit damage numbers in an AoE (even if it's just a line). As for Incorporeal creatures, use a Ghost Touch weapon. As for non-diminutive swarms, they still die to half damage.


But the fact that you're snarking "use a torch" means you agree with how screwed the melee would be in that scenario. For the record, Hellwasps aren't a "corner case" as there are a multitude of Diminutive and Fine swarms out there, plus the DM can make his own seeing as swarm is a template.

A true melee character is pretty much screwed vs diminutive swarms. A melee's best option is getting Fire Resist and setting himself on fire, and repeatedly hurling himself against the swarm. Or getting other options, like being a caster himself. Or, if he has advanced knowledge, bum the Swarmfighting enhancement from Dungeonscape off the neighborhood Artificer.

I consider Hellwasp Swarms a corner case because:
1. They are 1 of 6 <Dim Swarms in the MM, and the only really dangerous one at that.
2. They are 1 of 30 <Dim Swarms in the entirety of WotC's published works (so long as my OCRing of pdfs is reliable, which it may not be). Of these 30, only 15 are actually dangerous.

When I say dangerous, I mean to a party of 4 that includes one or more casters of an appropriate level.


Flying becomes relevant long before these items become affordable to most melee. For instance, core gives us Wings of Flying, clocking in at 54k, not affordable until quite a few levels after the Wilder is capable of not only taking down airborne foes but taking to the sky himself.

Use-Activated or Continuous item of Swift Fly is 12,000 gp. If the DM doesn't approve of custom magic items, Winged Boots from the DMG gets you 15 minutes of flight per day for 16,000 gp.


Oddly enough, a Wilder does not need a specific race to be relevant.

Neither does a power-attacking greatsword wielder.


Then we actually have no quarrel.
Glad we've come to an agreement.

As an aside, I realize that your games may be different than mine... these are from my experiences, and may not reflect the viewpoints of others.

[Psyren]

The reason Whirling Blade is a good blast is because it is resolved like a melee attack, so you can apply things like Power Attack, Shock Trooper, etc.

How many casters invest in all of those things and Sculpt Spell though? How many melee want to dip to get Whirling Blade? Also, Whirling Blade is only one attack per target, losing a lot of melee's damage potential.

It feels like you're watering down your build for not much benefit.



A true melee character is pretty much screwed vs diminutive swarms.

And a Wilder is not. Game, set.


Use-Activated or Continuous item of Swift Fly is 12,000 gp. If the DM doesn't approve of custom magic items, Winged Boots from the DMG gets you 15 minutes of flight per day for 16,000 gp.

Those must be parceled out in 5 minute increments, so you'd better hope the 4th and any other combats don't have flying enemies either.



Neither does a power-attacking greatsword wielder.

No, instead he needs to blow 16k of his WBL countering one specific defense.



Glad we've come to an agreement.


Likewise!

[strider24seven]

How many casters invest in all of those things and Sculpt Spell though? How many melee want to dip to get Whirling Blade? Also, Whirling Blade is only one attack per target, losing a lot of melee's damage potential.

It feels like you're watering down your build for not much benefit.


Sculpt spell is not required... the 60' line is quite effective all on its own. But Sculpt is really good for any caster that can cast conjuration or transmutation spells anyway.

I made use of it with a Suel Arcanamach at mid-high levels, as a Dungeoncrasher Fighter (dipped cleric with magic domain and used a wand) at early-mid levels.

It's not terribly useful on Pounce-based chargers, but very useful as an option in case charging is not an option or if enemies are lined/clustered.

However, it is incredibly useful with on-hit effects, like Boomerang Daze (requires an Aptitude weapon), Snowflake Wardance, etc.

Edit for clarity's sake: Whirling Blade is not for everyone. It's a trick that is incredibly useful for versatile beatsticks like gishes and is something that could be incredibly abusable for certain builds like the King of Pong.

[dspeyer]

Let's see how a wilder can do. Let's do level 10, because it's less effort for me than level 20. A measly 6 powers known. Let's take:

Control Flames
Energy Ray
Energy Push
Touchsight
Divination, Psionic
Major Creation, Psionic

It's not a great set of options. The problem is less that there are only six and more that the wilder list isn't very good. Most of the really good powers are in specialist lists. Even so...

A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Touchsight and divination will help with the traps. And once he reaches the dragon, energy ray is one of the few things that will reliably hurt a dragon.

You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Not much here. You've got divination, and if you get in a fight you can get out of it.

You do get 4+int skills, bluff, intimidate and sense motive, and cha synergy. But no int synergy and you need concentration, plus likely psicraft and knowledge(psionics), so that may not work out so well.

A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Divination for preperations, and major creation should supply some nice traps and weapons. During battle, control flames is good for wiping mooks (have some commoners like bonfires ahead of time) and energy push deals with formations.

Not useless, but not great. I certainly don't see us sitting out the non-blasty encounters.

Let's see if we can do better. We can take Expanded Knowledge at levels 6 and 9 for some specialist powers (just take any metapsionics we want early) and hire an npc psion(telepath) to chirurgery us extra powers for:

{table=head]Power Level|gp cost|gp+xp cost
1|6530|4030gp+500xp
2|11530|6530gp+1000xp
3|16530|9030gp+1500xp
4|21530|11530gp+2000xp
5|26530|14030gp+2500xp
{colsp=3}(and if we were higher level)
6|31530|16530gp+3000xp
7|36530|19030gp+3500xp
8|41530|21530gp+4000xp
9|46530|24030gp+4500xp[/table]
(My new favorite munchkin trick: psion who at level 17 in his backstory spends his entire WBL on chirurgery and then takes vow of poverty.)

We've got 49000gp and not a ton else to spend it on, so let's spend 13060 for astral construct and charm (this requires finding an npc with expanded knowledge(astral construct), but by RAW that doesn't affect the price and it's such a useful power I bet a lot of them take it). Then use expanded knowledge for read thoughts and metamorphosis.

Now all the dragon's traps crunch on disposable astral constructs, or we just fly above them as a bird. We still blast the dragon, but from hiding as a mouse or spider or something. Knowing who's really a resistance member and getting them to trust us is as easy as two failed will saves, and the guard recognizing you is no longer a risk because you never wear the same face twice. A set of secret bulette tunnels should give our army a tactical advantage and if the enemy army breaks through our lines anywhere, a cr 5 (cr 7 with wild surge) reinforcement with a situational special ability is a standard action away.

[strider24seven]

Awesome Analysis and Stuff

I would also strongly recommend Psychic Reformation as one of the best powers known for a Wilder, so you can change your severely limited power loadout with some prep time.

[Amphetryon]

You do get 4+int skills, bluff, intimidate and sense motive, and cha synergy. But no int synergy and you need concentration, plus likely psicraft and knowledge(psionics), so that may not work out so well.It has been my (anecdotal) experience that a person who repeatedly fights for a particular person - or set of people - in the game garners the trust of that person or people for whom he fights, regardless of how much diplomacy is involved. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend," and so forth.

Perhaps I'm the only person to consistently see this happen in game; I couldn't say.

[Psyren]

There's a lot about the proposed dragon scenario that had me raising eyebrows.

1) I'm not sure how often you plan on manifesting Divination, but a power stone of it is only 700 gp. I would just buy/craft a few of those, or even a dorje if you plan on going nuts inside divining for traps (reforming it away when my dorje is complete), and use your 4th on something with a little more utility like Dimension Door or Psychic Reformation. (You can also skip 4ths entirely and grab another 3rd, e.g. Time Hop or Dispel Psionics.) I don't really see any reason for a Wilder to blow a power known on it.

2) Not sure why you think Energy Ray is such a reliable way to deal with the dragon considering it is PR:Yes - unless the dragon in question is Juvenile or younger, putting his CR well below your level anyway. Crystal Shard is probably a better choice, having no save, no SR and no overlap with your Energy Push. Between those two you can also handle a wider variety of threats, e.g. golems. If you really want Energy Ray, consider dropping Push instead and getting Crystalstorm. Either way the idea is that you have something with SR: No in your arsenal, because SR is basically miss chance vs. powers, and miss chance sucks.

3) Touchsight is a decent choice; between that and Time Hop you should have no problems with any traps. Or if you went with DD instead, bypass the traps entirely, don't even worry about them.

4) When you added feats to the mix, you forgot the 1st-level feat. For a Wilder, this goes to Hidden Talent if it is allowed, no exceptions. Metapsionics can wait.

Finally, for the Astral Construct scenario, you can simply craft an Astral Legion Psicrown. This will let you take on both the dragon and the orc army with ease. You can arm the populace with Major Creation if you really want to, but so long as they light the fires their participation is much less relevant. This frees up your 5th for Ectoplasmic Shambler, another great army-screw ability. The best part is that you can direct the Shambler, your Constructs, and the Controlled Flames all during your turn.

[Draz74]

The problem is less that there are only six and more that the wilder list isn't very good. Most of the really good powers are in specialist lists.

QFT. This gets to me every time I try to build a Wilder, when I'm deciding which non-Feat-based powers to select. Ugh.

[strider24seven]

QFT. This gets to me every time I try to build a Wilder, when I'm deciding which non-Feat-based powers to select. Ugh.

Educated Wilder helps with this dilemma.