Psionic power: Empathy - how would you use it?

[Segev]

There are four first-level psi powers that an aspiring Telepath Diplomat might choose to acquire his minions--er, make friends:

Attraction
Psionic Charm
Empathy
Telempathic Projection

Psionic Charm is the only one exclusive to the Telepath and not available to Wilders and non-Telepath Psions. It is the most straight-forward in sheer application: it sets your target to "friendly."

Attraction lets you make them really want or like a particular thing or person, and gives (per RAW) you a +4 bonus on "interaction" rolls with a list of skills that is suggestive but not exhaustive. (I think you could justify Handle Animal as an 'interaction skill,' for example. I also think that the RAI might have been that anybody properly 'wielding' the Attractive thing gets the +4 bonus; make the King have an Attraction towards the party Bard and the Bard gets the bonus, for instance.) This one (and its 'interaction' bonus) lasts for an hour per level.

Telempathic Projection only lasts 10 min./level, but explicitly both lists the skills to which it gives a +4 bonus (limiting it a bit) and makes any valid target (creatures not immune to mind-affecting) improve its attitude by one category. Unlike Attraction and Psionic Charm, it can't be augmented and its DC is thus fixed, which is an additional downside.

Empathy, now, though, really confuses me. It lets you sense surface emotions in a 30-ft. radius for as long as you concentrate, up to 1 min./level. This doesn't seem outwardly all that useful to me, since it requires Concentration and you thus can't do anything with it. It does grant a +2 insight (note, named) bonus on a specific list of interaction skills, but only on the round you cease concentrating on the power. Even Solicit Psicrystal doesn't let you get more than that round of +2 insight bonus out of it.

What confuses me still more is that it also can be augmented to increase its maximum duration to 1 hour/level. Who really would be concentrating for HOURS on maintaining a power that doesn't seem to do anything while maintained?

Am I missing something, or is it just as useless a power as it seems?

[Psyren]

Yeah it's pretty weak (hence the PF version getting several buffs.) What you can do with it depends a lot on the DM; one advantage it has over TeP/Charm/Attraction is that Empathy works on multiple targets right out of the box; if you're trying to, say, bluff three suspicious guards, you get the bonus vs. all of them, rather than charming/attracting one and possibly making the others even more suspicious.

As a rule of thumb though, I would only take one of these. Psionic Charm is the most powerful since you can basically augment it into Charm Monster later on, but if you're not a telepath then TeP is probably the next best.

[Segev]

For pure diplomancy, Attraction+T.Projection stacks, since they're both unnamed bonuses.

But thanks.

I do wish I knew what they were thinking, giving it an augment to extend its maximum duration to 1 hour/level, when you have to concentrate on it the whole time.

[Psyren]

For pure diplomancy, Attraction+T.Projection stacks, since they're both unnamed bonuses.

But thanks.

True, but you have limited powers known and Attraction is useless in combat, so I would gravitate towards the one(s) with broader application.



I do wish I knew what they were thinking, giving it an augment to extend its maximum duration to 1 hour/level, when you have to concentrate on it the whole time.

Indeed, this is one of the problems the PF version fixed. In PF, it works more like permanencied Detect Magic, where the power is running as a background process and you can simply take an action to check it for additional information as needed.

[NEO|Phyte]

I'm pretty sure Empathy's use is more the part where it gives you the general emotional state of everyone in the area, with no save. Read Thoughts might get you more directly useful information, but then you have to gamble on will saves, and everyone that passes gets the "I just made a save" tingle.

Expecting an assassin at a major social event? Augment for duration and range, sweep the crowd, relay any suspicious persons to the rest of the party through Mindlink.

[Fax Celestis]

Indeed, this is one of the problems the PF version fixed. In PF, it works more like permanencied Detect Magic, where the power is running as a background process and you can simply take an action to check it for additional information as needed.

Honestly, I think this is the intention they had: duration becomes hours/level, you can concentrate when you need to for information.

EDIT: Or you can use something like Extraordinary Concentration, I guess. Or be a synad. Or use schism.

[Flickerdart]

A civil servant or ruler who meets with many people over the course of a day would gain quite a bit of mileage out of hiring a low-level telepath to sit in a concealed chamber nearby and communicate any key things he detects through Empathy via telepathy or simply telling an errand boy, who then writes it down and delivers it to the guy, or communicates it to him by means of signal. Weeding out thieves that are taking stock of your palace to loot later, or lords harbouring dreams of usurpation, has never been easier.

[Psyren]

It's not that simple - the power only picks up emotion. So when your telepath-in-the-corner detects anger, it could be a vigilante plotting assassination or a farmer mad about the latest set of corn tariffs. If it picks up curiosity, it could be a thief casing the throne room for his burglary later, or a bumpkin staring wide-eyed at the finery around him for the first time. And if they're not angry at all - say, a professional assassin just doing another job - this power can actually hurt you by lulling you into a false sense of security.

If you want a no-save, scan-the-crowd emanation, skip this and get DHI.

[Segev]

Yeah, knowing the emotional state would be great if it had mechanical benefit. But the only mechanics it gives are the +2 insight bonus to "interaction skills" made specifically in the round you end the power.

[NEO|Phyte]

If you want a no-save, scan-the-crowd emanation, skip this and get DHI.

Detect hostile intent is only useful if hostile intent is what you are attempting to locate. Additionally, unless the assassin is preparing to strike, he won't register because the power only picks up "active aggression."

Also, I suspect that Empathy is a bit more specific than "anger" "curiosity" "ennui." A farmer grumbling about new tariffs is a whole different kind of anger than the kind of stuff that gets you worked up enough to kill a guy.

[Psyren]

Detect hostile intent is only useful if hostile intent is what you are attempting to locate. Additionally, unless the assassin is preparing to strike, he won't register because the power only picks up "active aggression."

You're forgetting the other effect of DHI - Free action Sense Motive checks at range. Using the "pick up a hunch" skill use, you could actually get all the same information that Empathy gives you in seconds, with the benefit of being immune to surprise the entire time. You can also use Sense Motive to gauge someone's level, using the rules in Complete Warrior.



Also, I suspect that Empathy is a bit more specific than "anger" "curiosity" "ennui." A farmer grumbling about new tariffs is a whole different kind of anger than the kind of stuff that gets you worked up enough to kill a guy.

You can certainly rule it that way, but RAW doesn't distinguish between "types of anger."

[NEO|Phyte]

You can certainly rule it that way, but RAW doesn't distinguish between "types of anger."

I'll grant you that.


You can sense basic needs, drives, and emotions.

So how about the comparative needs and drives of our hypothetical assassin and disgruntled farmer?

[Psyren]

So how about the comparative needs and drives of our hypothetical assassin and disgruntled farmer?

"I'm mad and here to accomplish something" is pretty basic.

[Fax Celestis]

"I'm mad and here to accomplish something" is pretty basic.

"I Need to kill that guy" vs. "I Need to get the king to change his taxation laws".

[Psyren]

"I Need to kill that guy" vs. "I Need to get the king to change his taxation laws".

Never underestimate an angry farmer :smalltongue:

Less facetiously, the question becomes "how basic is basic?"

Again, not saying Empathy is useless, but when you have limited powers known and one can do the other one's job+, you probably want the more capable one.

[Segev]

"I'm mad and here to accomplish something" is pretty basic.

Actually, "needs" and "drives" are...more telling than that. Perhaps I have been overlooking something here.

"Needs" are "what you need," and "drives" are "what you want." It's "Emotions" that would be the kind of thing we get from Deanna Troi on episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Needs and drives gives us...hm.

"The farmer there needs relief from a crushing burden and seeks that relief from the King or his Court" would be a need and probably a drive. It's more than one expects from the word "Empathy," but I can't see how one could be less specific than that and still communicate "needs" and "drives."

"That farmer there needs to avoid trouble until he can achieve a violent goal" would probably be what one picks up from the assassin posing as a "farmer."

You ALSO get emotions: the farmer has "hope" and "concern" and "desperation," while the assassin has "alertness" and "professional calm." That the latter is acting like he has "hope/concern/desperation" is part of the tip-off.


So maybe this is far more potent than I thought.

"Read Thoughts" still is stronger, if you can get by their saves: "Please, PLEASE grant me relief from my tax burden; my family is starving, your Majesty!" from the farmer and "That's right, I'm just a pleading farmer. Pity me, dismiss me. Good; it looks like they're buying it" from the assassin.

[Psyren]

Again, the problem is that the DM decides what is basic. To me, "Basic needs and drives" are found at the bottom rung of Maslow's, which isn't very useful information.

If your DM gives you more than that to work with, great. For myself, I prefer powers that aren't likely to cause arguments at the table.

[Segev]

Again, the problem is that the DM decides what is basic. To me, "Basic needs and drives" are found at the bottom rung of Maslow's, which isn't very useful information.

If your DM gives you more than that to work with, great. For myself, I prefer powers that aren't likely to cause arguments at the table.

I can agree with that last sentiment, certainly.

[Flickerdart]

Most mind-reading powers tend to be of the "bring this to your DM before you intend to pick it" variety.

[Psyren]

Most mind-reading powers tend to be of the "bring this to your DM before you intend to pick it" variety.

Tome of Magic has a great sidebar on what constitutes "surface thoughts" (it's part of Dantalion's entry) that I recommend every DM read before adjudicating mind-reading.

And I recommend DHI because it's pretty clear what benefits you get, both in a combat and non-combat context.