the Ice Assassin and you

[GutterFace]

Someone has a grudge! they sent an ice assassin after you. Now you are faced to face with the would be dispatcher.

how would you defeat....you?

you dont get to plan ahead for this. you only know there is an ice assassin after you, when it confronts you.

[Fouredged Sword]

In 3.5?

Go first and hit your lowest save.

In real life, call 911 and hold myself off with a chair while they arrive. I am fairly non-deadly.

[Hamste]

I don't think ice assassin recreates items so pretty easily. Fire also works unless if you are immune to fire.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't think ice assassin recreates items so pretty easily. Fire also works unless if you are immune to fire.

Fire doesn't do any additional damage against Ice Assassin, it just changes what happens when it dies.
The part about items is good though. Even if it's creator equipped it your own stuff is most likely better (also, loot!).

As a caster:
Strip it's buffs with a few castings of Greater Dispel Magic, then waste it with all the stuff your items usually make you immune to.

As melee:
Use your superior equipment to win.

[Yukitsu]

My current character is a debuffer, so we'd both suck and then it'd devolve into a hilarious cripple slap fight. If we both got off limp lash, there's a chance that we'd both be indefinitely paralyzed.

[Roguenewb]

I rarely play characters who are inherently resistant to themselves...wierd.

For my normal Gish character, wraithstrike ready full power attack for when he tries to hit me. Filet. If I have to go to him, approach let his readied action to smash me go off, Wings of Cover to avoid, Split Ray Enervation.

For my secondary Factotum/Chameleon style character....this will be the wierdest fight anyone has ever seen. Me and the DM will have to go toe-to-toe over our knowledge of my varios class features and prepared spells. I think, in time, I'll get him, but this one is very dice dependent.

[Hamste]

Fire doesn't do any additional damage against Ice Assassin, it just changes what happens when it dies.
The part about items is good though. Even if it's creator equipped it your own stuff is most likely better (also, loot!).

As a caster:
Strip it's buffs with a few castings of Greater Dispel Magic, then waste it with all the stuff your items usually make you immune to.

As melee:
Use your superior equipment to win.

They have the cold subtype though so they take 50% more damage from fire.

[GutterFace]

My current character is a debuffer, so we'd both suck and then it'd devolve into a hilarious cripple slap fight. If we both got off limp lash, there's a chance that we'd both be indefinitely paralyzed.

hahaha this was the problem i ran into with my DFA. both stood like 30' away and were debuffing and poking with damage. it was sad

[Segev]

My contingent Teleport removes me from the encounter if he gets the jump on me. Either way, I assess the situation and go prepare for it.

[sleepyphoenixx]

They have the cold subtype though so they take 50% more damage from fire.

Huh, is missed that one. Well, the answer is obvious then: KILL IT WITH FIRE! :belkar:

[GutterFace]

My contingent Teleport removes me from the encounter if he gets the jump on me. Either way, I assess the situation and go prepare for it.

The Ice Assassin knows where you are and has teleport; im pretty sure it would match your moves.

[Chronos]

My party members and I would collaborate to make it an easy and profitable encounter.

[magwaaf]

In 3.5?

Go first and hit your lowest save.

In real life, call 911 and hold myself off with a chair while they arrive. I am fairly non-deadly.

really?

i choose from the arsenal of melee weapons i have on hand and strikefirst

[GutterFace]

My party members and I would collaborate to make it an easy and profitable encounter.

Yes! the best answer thus far. get by with a little help from your friends.
friends that like cash.

[Auramis]

Using my current character: as a cleric/prc paladin/knight/swift wing who can spontaneously cast cure spells, I should be in a better boat than it is. Neither of us would be capable of casting smite on one another, nor could we really do anything to turn one another, so it's just a matter of sword vs sword.

Sure, he has spells he could use on me, but I can easily save against them, since my saving throws are high and my spell save DC is lower. I can cure myself too, where as he's going to need to visit his master to receive any healing. Also helps that, should I kill him, I have immunity to cold due to my Swift Wing levels being focused in Silver Dragon. Checkmate. :smallcool:

[Segev]

The Ice Assassin knows where you are and has teleport; im pretty sure it would match your moves.

Is that an innate, unlimited-use teleport power it has, or is that assuming it's got the same teleport I do?

If so, my contingent teleport will put me one ahead of it, as it will trigger it, then follow, and I can keep teleporting until it's used its teleports up, since it and I will have the same number of teleports that we can use on our own recognizance, whereas his copy of the contingent teleport to save his life won't trigger.

Now, if he's had time to specifically prepare with DIFFERENT contingencies et al, this won't work so well.

In which case I make sure my teleporting drops me in the midst of powerful allies who'll help me, because even if I can't beat myself when my enemy-self is better prepared, I'm fairly sure my whole party can with me backing them up against my lone self.

[GutterFace]

Is that an innate, unlimited-use teleport power it has, or is that assuming it's got the same teleport I do?

If so, my contingent teleport will put me one ahead of it, as it will trigger it, then follow, and I can keep teleporting until it's used its teleports up, since it and I will have the same number of teleports that we can use on our own recognizance, whereas his copy of the contingent teleport to save his life won't trigger.

Now, if he's had time to specifically prepare with DIFFERENT contingencies et al, this won't work so well.

In which case I make sure my teleporting drops me in the midst of powerful allies who'll help me, because even if I can't beat myself when my enemy-self is better prepared, I'm fairly sure my whole party can with me backing them up against my lone self.

Now, this; i can get down with :)

[Yukitsu]

In which case I make sure my teleporting drops me in the midst of powerful allies who'll help me, because even if I can't beat myself when my enemy-self is better prepared, I'm fairly sure my whole party can with me backing them up against my lone self.

"Thank god I got back in time to stop him, that guy's an imposter!"
"No, you're the imposter!"

[sleepyphoenixx]

"Thank god I got back in time to stop him, that guy's an imposter!"
"No, you're the imposter!"

Funny as it would be, that problem is easily overcome by True Seeing. Which you should have access to one way or another by the time people send Ice Assassins after you.

In general, sending the Ice Assassin alone after it's target is unlikely to work. It has no items, the target likely has friends (or minions) and at best you'll have a stalemate. If you want to use it you might have more success making an Ice Assassin of your target (and their friends) and using them as a meatwall, keeping in the back and utilising the ability to share your spells with them.

[Yukitsu]

Funny as it would be, that problem is easily overcome by True Seeing. Which you should have access to one way or another by the time people send Ice Assassins after you.

Typically, the one that has it is the one that can spam cast teleport, so the rest of the party may be SOL depending on how quickly things escalate. :p And to be honest, I rarely ever pick it up even then, nor does the group I'm in. Too expensive, high level and situational to ever amount to much.

[ArcaneGlyph]

Cast levitate, cast teleport, drop a portable hole at the place I ported to. Wait for him to port in behind, falls in hole. Pick up portable hole and go collect firewood.

[Krobar]

The Ice Assassin knows where you are and has teleport; im pretty sure it would match your moves.

That's okay. I've probably got Greater Anticipate Teleport up. So he gets delayed and I get prepared. Maybe I'll gate in a Battle Dragon from Ysgard, and tell it to kill the ice assassin when it appears. Maybe I'll do that twice.

lol.

Battle dragons can hit my armor class all day long and then some. So good luck, Mr. Ice Assassin.

[Nettlekid]

The thing that I love about the idea of facing an Ice Assassin is that it knows everything you know. If you've ever made plans on how to beat an Ice Assassin of yourself, it will know those plans and act to oppose them. So in the case of the guy who teleports, then puts a Portable Hole where he teleported to, the Ice Assassin will know where you teleported (or at least have a pretty good guess because the place you'd think to teleport to is the place it would think to teleport to,) but it would also know that you put a Portable Hole there because you had been planning to. Unlike a copy from a Mirror of Opposition, who is less prepared and you usually know it's coming, the Ice Assassin can think about the best way to act. It wants to kill you, but that's not like stupid berserker rage driving it. It'll be smart. So really, the best way to beat the Ice Assassin is to figure out how to beat it on the spot, without planning ahead of time, perhaps using things that you just learned in like the last hour to your advantage somehow, because that's the only thing you've got up your sleeve that it doesn't know.

Really though, if it did try to fool your friends into thinking it was you, and for some reason they didn't have True Seeing (or perhaps the creator of the Ice Assassin took extra steps to making it nonmagically disguised as the target, I don't know how), how might you be able to convince them? If it knows everything you know, and would try every tactic you would try, then how to outwit it?

Also, what happens if you make an Ice Assassin of yourself? It wants to kill you, but is also completely under your control, so is it just like having an extra self around with all your skills and abilities?

[Jack_Simth]

That's okay. I've probably got Greater Anticipate Teleport up. So he gets delayed and I get prepared. Maybe I'll gate in a Battle Dragon from Ysgard, and tell it to kill the ice assassin when it appears. Maybe I'll do that twice.

No, that just means he teleports in 5 feet out of range of your GAT. Remember: He knows what you know.

[Raven777]

No, that just means he teleports in 5 feet out of range of your GAT. Remember: He knows what you know.

But does the DM know what I know?

[Jack_Simth]

But does the DM know what I know?

Your caster level and what buffs you have up? Sure. You had to declare them at some point. And, fully in character, the Ice Assassin knows your habits. Also remember: You don't have specific warning that the Ice Assassin is after you.

[Jurai]

Cast Miracle, request an Aleax of myself to aid me in battle. An Ice Assassin might be able to handle one me, but two? I doubt that.

[Fyermind]

Well, since may main talents are parkour, ju jitsu, and ballroom dance, my primary strategy would be to run away. Since I don't usually have my bike on my person, but I often ride a bike, I'd use that to get a leg up on myself. Next goal would be to get somewhere where I have the defensive advantage. Also picking up some rebar or something. I'm pretty good with rebar, string, and duct tape. Yay for LARP born talents.

[Nettlekid]

Cast Miracle, request an Aleax of myself to aid me in battle. An Ice Assassin might be able to handle one me, but two? I doubt that.

Considering that Aleaxes are only created by a deity with the express purpose of roughing you up for upsetting that deity, it's probably more likely to sympathize with the Ice Assassin than you.

What if you made an Ice Assassin of the Ice Assassin? Also, are Ice Assassins Constructs, or are they your type with the Cold subtype added on? If they're Constructs, that gives them a pretty big weakness against like, an Artificer who has many Construct-killing moves. And of course, anything with its own healing has a significant advantage over it. Then again, anything like a Dread Necromancer who specializes in spells which kill living creatures will be at quite a disadvantage, since you can be killed but it can't.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, are Ice Assassins Constructs, or are they your type with the Cold subtype added on?The usual interpretation is that they have the same type as the original (plus the Cold subtype), as it's a duplicate creature and nothing (beyond adding the Cold subtype) is mentioned of a type change. But the Ice Assassin spell (and it's little brother, Simulacrum) are... exceptionally vaguely worded.

[Ace Nex]

If it goes after me irl, well, I hope it isn't armed. If it is, attempt to disarm it, and use said weapon against me* or hide and call 911.

In game, I would assume this would be sent after my most powerful character, a 20th level caster. She would teleport/plane shift away to her genesis and cast several vision and protective spells (should my copy follow, she would have to fight multiple Solars and titans at the same time which should easily dispatch her). Several moments later, with all the information I need and all my buff spells in place, I would return with my group of Solars and hope I get the first shot in (Because she shoots to kill, and when she hits something, it dies.)

[Aharon]

The usual interpretation is that they have the same type as the original (plus the Cold subtype), as it's a duplicate creature and nothing (beyond adding the Cold subtype) is mentioned of a type change. But the Ice Assassin spell (and it's little brother, Simulacrum) are... exceptionally vaguely worded.

A web article explicitely says they are the same type as the original (link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050809a)). I think Ice Assassin inherits that.

[Jack_Simth]

Also, what happens if you make an Ice Assassin of yourself? It wants to kill you, but is also completely under your control, so is it just like having an extra self around with all your skills and abilities?If you order it to never act upon it's desire to destroy you (or some such), you have two absolutes in opposition:

The Ice Assassin has an 'all consuming need' to destroy you.
The Ice Assassin is under your 'absolute command'.

Which one wins is completely up to DM whimsy. I don't recommend trying it.

You could, however, Ice Assassin a recently-slain BBEG without much problem.


A web article explicitely says they are the same type as the original (link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050809a)). I think Ice Assassin inherits that.
You will receive widely varying opinions on the value of Rules of the Game articles and the FAQ.

Funny as it would be, that problem is easily overcome by True Seeing. Which you should have access to one way or another by the time people send Ice Assassins after you.
Forget True Seeing. A 'standard' party has a simple way to distinguish, spontaneously, at first level, if it's known to be a potential Ice Assasin:
Cut both candidates slightly.
Apply Cure Light (or even Cure Minor) Wounds to both.
Whichever one heals is likely the real deal; whichever one doesn't is likely the fake - both because Ice Assassins require repair, not healing.

[Nettlekid]

If you order it to never act upon it's desire to destroy you (or some such), you have two absolutes in opposition:

The Ice Assassin has an 'all consuming need' to destroy you.
The Ice Assassin is under your 'absolute command'.

Which one wins is completely up to DM whimsy. I don't recommend trying it.


I would think that under normal circumstances, an Ice Assassin could be ordered by its creator not to kill its original, even though that's what it's made for. Like it goes in, attack-attack-attack, about to strike the final blow, and its creator says "I command you to stop." Because it's under the creator's absolute control, I would think it would stop. So the same ought to work even if it's you it's supposed to kill.

[Deophaun]

Using my current character: as a cleric/prc paladin/knight/swift wing who can spontaneously cast cure spells, I should be in a better boat than it is. Neither of us would be capable of casting smite on one another, nor could we really do anything to turn one another, so it's just a matter of sword vs sword.
Come to think about it, if he attacks you unprovoked, isn't that evil, and doesn't he fall immediately?

Pelor save me, is this an instance where the Paladin's restrictions actually help the Paladin?

[Aharon]

You will receive widely varying opinions on the value of Rules of the Game articles and the FAQ.

Oh, thanks. I was aware of the discussions concerning the validity of the FAQ, but didn't know this extended to the "Rules of the Games" Articles. Makes sense since it is the same author, but I assumed he put more work into the articles than into the FAQ, which sometimes pretty clearly is only advice on how Skip would rule it, without referring to RAW.

[Jack_Simth]

I would think that under normal circumstances, an Ice Assassin could be ordered by its creator not to kill its original, even though that's what it's made for. Like it goes in, attack-attack-attack, about to strike the final blow, and its creator says "I command you to stop." Because it's under the creator's absolute control, I would think it would stop. So the same ought to work even if it's you it's supposed to kill.
That is one interpretation. But again: You've got two absolutes in opposition. Which one 'wins' is up to DM whimsy. If you, specifically, are the DM, clearly, the 'absolute control' clause wins. But I really don't see any clear RAW as to why one wins out over the other.

[Segev]

"All-Consuming Need" is not an absolute. It's a near-absolute. It defines the thing's driving motivation and desire. It "needs" to do that as badly as a starving man "needs" to eat.

You could still Dominate it not to (though you might be able to argue that the self-destructive resistance bonus to the save might apply). Since "absolute control" is what Dominate gives, and the Ice Assassin does not get any save at all against that absolute control, the creator's will wins out.

It might hate it as much as a Dominated man might hate being forced to murder his wife and children, as much as a starving man might hate to be forced to sit at a table and hold a morsel of food just on the tip of his tongue without being allowed to eat, as much as a regular on an internet form might hate to be forced to write a post telling somebody with whom he was arguing (and still KNOWS is wrong) that that somebody is right. But Domination - and absolute control - can force this behavior.

[Pickford]

Considering that Aleaxes are only created by a deity with the express purpose of roughing you up for upsetting that deity, it's probably more likely to sympathize with the Ice Assassin than you.

What if you made an Ice Assassin of the Ice Assassin? Also, are Ice Assassins Constructs, or are they your type with the Cold subtype added on? If they're Constructs, that gives them a pretty big weakness against like, an Artificer who has many Construct-killing moves. And of course, anything with its own healing has a significant advantage over it. Then again, anything like a Dread Necromancer who specializes in spells which kill living creatures will be at quite a disadvantage, since you can be killed but it can't.

Miracle is also up to the whim of the DM, so the Aleax would attempt to kill you.

Re: IA, Why would you spend 5000xp to build something that, if it was more than 1 mile from you, would immediately start sending things to kill you?

edit: And if you're telepathically linked to your own IA which has an all-consuming need to destroy you, it could easily explode your brain with noises to prevent you from concentrating on anything (including sleep/meditation) at which point you run out of spells and are helpless against your enemies.

[Segev]

Ordering it to shut up except with information crucial to your interests would go a long way.

[unseenmage]

I let it kill me, then let my friends bring me back. Problem solved.

That or enact a scheme of mutually assured destruction. Probably through Craft Contingent spell (an item so the copy wouldn't have it).

[aleucard]

I let it kill me, then let my friends bring me back. Problem solved.

That or enact a scheme of mutually assured destruction. Probably through Craft Contingent spell (an item so the copy wouldn't have it).

First would probably piss off the DM since it reeks of the kind of cheese that is considered 'well-aged' when it can kill small animals by them getting to close to the smell. You'd be much better off actually killing it than throwing the fight for that.

If you know that the IA is coming, set some stuff up that'll **** over ice elements. Nobody likes getting dunked in a lava bath, after all. Even better, try finding someone who can command [Cold] creatures like evil clerics do undead. That ability exists in at least one book, and there's probably variations in several. Just have that guy lead the thing into some sort of anti-magic field volcano and make it hop in, or seal the entrance and leave it there while you induce an eruption. It's a bit overkill, even for DnD, but no form of kill is quite as satisfying. ^_^

[sleepyphoenixx]

Getting the turning is only a Domain Draught (MIC, 3300gp) away.
However, the cleric would need twice your HD in turning levels to command the IA. That's not impossible but it's not something many clerics invest in.
You'll have to know it's coming to prepare that, too.

[unseenmage]

First would probably piss off the DM since it reeks of the kind of cheese that is considered 'well-aged' when it can kill small animals by them getting to close to the smell. You'd be much better off actually killing it than throwing the fight for that.

If you know that the IA is coming, set some stuff up that'll **** over ice elements. Nobody likes getting dunked in a lava bath, after all. Even better, try finding someone who can command [Cold] creatures like evil clerics do undead. That ability exists in at least one book, and there's probably variations in several. Just have that guy lead the thing into some sort of anti-magic field volcano and make it hop in, or seal the entrance and leave it there while you induce an eruption. It's a bit overkill, even for DnD, but no form of kill is quite as satisfying. ^_^

Just out of curiosity, how is Craft Contingent any more cheesey than the previous, 'I use my items because it won't have any.', posts?

But seriously, I am a little curious what an Ice Assassin really considers a win. It is a level 9 spell after all. Would the Assassin be satisfied if the target were simply slain? If they were made undead? Transformed by ritual into a dragon?

What if you Ice Assassin a Petitioner? Would the Assassin have to destroy the soul to be satisfied?

I think I'd like to see an Epic version of the Ice Assassin spell that requires the true destruction of the target's soul. Perhaps the Epic version copies equipment too. What additional abilities would the Epic version need to confer to the Assassin to get such a job done?

[aleucard]

Just out of curiosity, how is Craft Contingent any more cheesey than the previous, 'I use my items because it won't have any.', posts?

But seriously, I am a little curious what an Ice Assassin really considers a win. It is a level 9 spell after all. Would the Assassin be satisfied if the target were simply slain? If they were made undead? Transformed by ritual into a dragon?

What if you Ice Assassin a Petitioner? Would the Assassin have to destroy the soul to be satisfied?

I think I'd like to see an Epic version of the Ice Assassin spell that requires the true destruction of the target's soul. Perhaps the Epic version copies equipment too. What additional abilities would the Epic version need to confer to the Assassin to get such a job done?

The part that looked cheesy to me was the 'suicide by IA then Resurrect when it goes poof' option. It basically obviates the entire exercise, which could irritate a DM that values their time.

Chances are, IA would call a win anything that the character it clones would call a win. Killing the target would be enough for the vast majority of people, unless if that character specifically has things it can do to leave its Afterlife plane and operate as normal. The list of things that can obliterate a soul like what would be required to prevent that would be short, and I'm not sure DnD even has anything like that in it.

[unseenmage]

The part that looked cheesy to me was the 'suicide by IA then Resurrect when it goes poof' option. It basically obviates the entire exercise, which could irritate a DM that values their time.

Chances are, IA would call a win anything that the character it clones would call a win. Killing the target would be enough for the vast majority of people, unless if that character specifically has things it can do to leave its Afterlife plane and operate as normal. The list of things that can obliterate a soul like what would be required to prevent that would be short, and I'm not sure DnD even has anything like that in it.

IIRC there's a soul eating Illithid PRC that truly destroys souls. And I want to say I remember an Undead or two that, once you become them, you can't go back.
Speaking of Undead, isn't there a ightstalker or something that eats you and if you aren't rescued in time your soul is eaten to fuel it? Or am I misremembering the Iron Lich from Iron Kingdoms?

[sleepyphoenixx]

There are various methods to trap a soul. You can then destroy the soul by using it as a spell component or to offset crafting XP cost (BoVD).

[Pickford]

You could, however, Ice Assassin a recently-slain BBEG without much problem.

An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature.


So...probably not. (Although if you wanted to pull one over on your DM...then maybe ;) )

[GutterFace]

I'm thrilled this thread is still alive. good work everyone!

[unseenmage]

If the character is a construct then carrying around a Rod of Construct Control (AaEG) ought to allow them to command their own Ice Assassin.

The Rod just changes who the creator is, it doesn't make the Ice Assassin more powerful.

[Pickford]

If the character is a construct then carrying around a Rod of Construct Control (AaEG) ought to allow them to command their own Ice Assassin.

The Rod just changes who the creator is, it doesn't make the Ice Assassin more powerful.

If the character is a construct how did the Ice Assassin get its key components?

"Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed."

Or are you reading the 'and so on' to include non-organic matter? (Again, your DM would have a distinct impact on how plausible this is)

edit: Wait, it can't include organic matter because and so on implies that anything else shares similarities with the listed items. In this case the only similarity is that the items ARE organic.

[unseenmage]

If the character is a construct how did the Ice Assassin get its key components?

"Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed."

Or are you reading the 'and so on' to include non-organic matter? (Again, your DM would have a distinct impact on how plausible this is)

I thnk you just answered your own question. :smallsmile:

And hey, don't blame me, I learned it from watching Tippy threads. :smallbiggrin:

[TuggyNE]

I'm thrilled this thread is still alive. good work everyone!

It actually isn't, Tippy made an Ice Assassin of the thread a while back and is having it wait for the right moment to strike.