Tome of Magic: Mysteries, Utterances, and Vestiges, will they blend?

[Xuldarinar]

A simple question really. Could someone build an effective character that relies on the three chapters of ToM? Perhaps theres a way that one could mix the three, without homebrew, that makes use of their strengths to cover each magic's weaknesses.

[strider24seven]

Shadowcaster 19/Binder 1, bind Naberius and go find ways to hurt yourself with ability damage. And take 1 rank in Truespeak.

[Xuldarinar]

Shadowcaster 19/Binder 1, bind Naberius and go find ways to hurt yourself with ability damage. And take 1 rank in Truespeak.

I honestly fail to see the benefit of this. :small confused:

[Chronos]

Both pact magic and shadow magic have prestige classes for combining with normal spellcasters, and shadow magic also has a framework for letting some spell-advancing classes advance shadowcasting, but unfortunately none of them work with each other. Truename magic, meanwhile, doesn't really have any means of combining with any other system, beyond a few spells (unavailable to shadowcasters and binders, of course) which require a True Speech check.

The only crossover at all I'm aware of between the systems is that one vestige, Tenebrous, gives use of one of the shadowcaster's mysteries as one of its abilities.

[Xuldarinar]

Both pact magic and shadow magic have prestige classes for combining with normal spellcasters, and shadow magic also has a framework for letting some spell-advancing classes advance shadowcasting, but unfortunately none of them work with each other. Truename magic, meanwhile, doesn't really have any means of combining with any other system, beyond a few spells (unavailable to shadowcasters and binders, of course) which require a True Speech check.

The only crossover at all I'm aware of between the systems is that one vestige, Tenebrous, gives use of one of the shadowcaster's mysteries as one of its abilities.

An unfortunate truth in this. The only possible thing I can think of reasonably is devote the class levels to shadow magic, but devote feats to binding and truenaming, as both systems can be accessed via feats.

[Roguenewb]

Why...would you want to? Truenaming is *literally* broken, as in it doesn't work. Shadowcaster is quite weak. I think the best way to do it would be to finagle Anima mage into advancing shadowcasting. Truenaming...just let it rot where it belongs.

[strider24seven]

I honestly fail to see the benefit of this. :small confused:

Several abilities exist that inflict ability damage to yourself as a balancing factor. Naberius removes that balancing factor. So go check out things like:

-Metaphysical Spellshaper (Book of Erotic Fantasy)
-Spelldancer (Magic of Faerun)
-Ritual of Shadow Walking (Lords of Darkness)
-Spells that damage yourself (Book of Vile Darkness has a lot of these)
-Hellfire Warlock, though that may be difficult to get into without actual Warlock levels.

Feel free to sacrifice as much Shadowcaster as necessary to make any of the above work... it's a fairly "meh" class that leaves a lot to be desired. The 1 rank in truespeak is to meet the Truenaming requirement you set forth in the OP. Because any more investment into Truespeak would probably be a detriment to the character, with the possible exception of some of the spells with a Truename component.

The best feature of Shadowcaster is that it gives you metamagic feats for getting mysteries in different paths. You could build on that somehow, I guess.

I put forth the following:
Human, 2 flaws
Binder 1/Shadowcaster 16/Metaphysical Spellshaper 3
Take as many mystery paths as you can, try to pick up Extend and Persist as soon as you have your first MSS level. Then get the following feats:

Magical Training, Eldritch Corruption, Earth Sense, Earth Spell, Extra Slot

Get a 9th level slot with Extra Slot (edit: this may take more than one instance of this feat, depending on when you get it), nab Shapechange, Extend it and Persist it, and you have an adventure-worthy Shadowcaster. With a rank in Truespeak.

[Gemini476]

An unfortunate truth in this. The only possible thing I can think of reasonably is devote the class levels to shadow magic, but devote feats to binding and truenaming, as both systems can be accessed via feats.

Make a Noctumancer with the binding feats and the Truename spells. Boost int, grab a Greater Amulet of the Silver Tongue, avoid the Truename Spells that just plain suck.
For qualifying for Noctumancer early, grab Precocious Apprentice. Four feats used, build is Wizard 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge 6. Use a feat on boosting CL for your Wizard and you're set.

Still a pretty suboptimal build though. But double 9s in Wizard and Shadowcaster isn't that bad.

[Eldan]

Hmm. The Shadowcaster can't really get into Anima Mage, can it...

[peacenlove]

Why...would you want to? Truenaming is *literally* broken, as in it doesn't work. Shadowcaster is quite weak. I think the best way to do it would be to finagle Anima mage into advancing shadowcasting. Truenaming...just let it rot where it belongs.

Shadowcasting is surprisingly potent when used by a DM especially at level 7 and later. I have in the past replaced dragon spellcasting with equivalent shadowcasting to great effect.


Hmm. The Shadowcaster can't really get into Anima Mage, can it...

The adaptation is simple and IIRC it has a psionic or divine adaptation, meaning it could be adapted to another casting chassis.
The benefits aren't quite as big as entering via an arcane class however. Remember that you lose bonus feats as a multiclass shadowcaster. Nocturmancer via early entry is better and cleaner in this case.

Tenebrous apostate uses Umbral body (which is identical to ghost form from SC)

Truenaming has also some recitation feats that they do not work as intended or at all.

Shadowcasting unfortunately is designed to be a system apart from the rest of DnD 3.5, resisting attempts to mingle. If that weren't the case, one could empower it with other 3.5 material, as was done with other classes. Binding and Truenaming are more elegant with feats and skill.

[123456789blaaa]

Shadowcasting is surprisingly potent when used by a DM especially at level 7 and later. I have in the past replaced dragon spellcasting with equivalent shadowcasting to great effect.



The adaptation is simple and IIRC it has a psionic or divine adaptation, meaning it could be adapted to another casting chassis.
The benefits aren't quite as big as entering via an arcane class however. Remember that you lose bonus feats as a multiclass shadowcaster. Nocturmancer via early entry is better and cleaner in this case.

Tenebrous apostate uses Umbral body (which is identical to ghost form from SC)

Truenaming has also some recitation feats that they do not work as intended or at all.

Shadowcasting unfortunately is designed to be a system apart from the rest of DnD 3.5, resisting attempts to mingle. If that weren't the case, one could empower it with other 3.5 material, as was done with other classes. Binding and Truenaming are more elegant with feats and skill.

I've heard some people say that mysteries are spells. If that's the case than you could take feats like Mother Cyst to add spells to your Shadowcaster mystery list.

[Xuldarinar]

I've heard some people say that mysteries are spells. If that's the case than you could take feats like Mother Cyst to add spells to your Shadowcaster mystery list.

Well, mysteries are explicitly stated to not be spells. They have their similarities, and can qualify in some cases as spells for prestige classes, but they do not benefit from feats that benefit spells.

[Chilingsworth]

I'm sorry, but when I read the thread title, all I could think of is this guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7TK_8RiVj8).

(I mean the blendtec guy, not Bieber.)

[123456789blaaa]

Well, mysteries are explicitly stated to not be spells. They have their similarities, and can qualify in some cases as spells for prestige classes, but they do not benefit from feats that benefit spells.

I remember arguing this. Do you mean this quote:


You do not cast spells as other classes do, but instead invoke mystical secrets called mysteries

Because that can be read as:

Other classes cast spells; shadowcasters do not

or

Shadowcasters cast spells in a way unique from other classes

And of course there are a bunch of places implying they do cast spells:


Your kind of right but really the whole thing is a big mess.

on page 111 it says the shadowcaster is "less versatile than other spellcasters." This defines shadowcasters as spellcasters.

it goes on to say "like most spell users, her role depends largely on the magic she chooses."

It then immediately contradicts itself on page 112 by saying "You do not cast spells, as other classes do."

It then swings back the other way again by saying "Mysteries represent thought patterns an formulae so alien that other spells seem simple in comparison." This defines mysteries as spells again....

"You cast them as though they were arcane spells."

"Whenever you cast a mystery as an arcane spell..."

"Now function as spell-like abilities" so not spells anymore...

It then says at the very very end on page 113
"Even though as a shadow caster you do not "cast spells" in the traditional sense" This implies that you DO cast spells in some sense, just not in the traditional sense, whatever that is.

So yeh, I just assume this very sheltered designer never read any of the other books or concerned himself with thoughts of how his pretty poorly designed and worded class would interact with the information that might be in them.

It's a bit of a mess.

[Zombulian]

I'm sure that you could make a fairly workable Shadowcaster/Binder build. Unfortunately I have found that for any Truenamer to be anywhere near effective, you've generally got to stick it out all the way through.

[CyberThread]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l69Vi5IDc0g



The only thing I can honestly suggest is table test them in a quick battle round, before you finalize a character.

[peacenlove]

I've heard some people say that mysteries are spells. If that's the case than you could take feats like Mother Cyst to add spells to your Shadowcaster mystery list.

Its kinda more complicated. You do not have either spells known nor spells prepared. They are more like creature spell like / supernatural.
You can use Mother cyst to gain extra mysteries due to this line "You cast these spells like any other spell you can cast, once you host a mother cyst" but it is problematic on its own because they aren't categorized either in a path nor in grade, so it is unknown how you treat them in-class.
EDIT: Just read pg 138, ToM, the categorization is crystal clear.
Same thing about Cerebrosis, a feat found in Dragon 330 serving a similar function as Mother cyst.

About the spellcaster thing, you should just read the Adaptation section, which honestly doesn't make sense and just make your own ruling as a DM. Quoting to prove my point:

In a cosmology where no such plane exists, shadowcasters might draw their powers from a deity of night, functioning as divine rather than arcane casters.

[Flickerdart]

Truenaming has a couple of handy spells and that one martial art. Start with a Binder level, then theurge Shadowcaster and Wizard, and go wild with some tasty Vile spells, using Naberius to mitigate away the damage. Your mysteries and truename spells are for when you meet an enemy unusually resistant to everyday stuff. As far as flavour, this works pretty well - a mild-mannered arcanist suddenly whips out an extra edge he's gained from bargaining with questionable powers, up to and including attacking you with what's basically your own soul.

Do Shadowcasters qualify as spontaneous arcane casters for Ultimate Magus? That could be a fun way to mix them.

[Xuldarinar]

Truenaming has a couple of handy spells and that one martial art. Start with a Binder level, then theurge Shadowcaster and Wizard, and go wild with some tasty Vile spells, using Naberius to mitigate away the damage. Your mysteries and truename spells are for when you meet an enemy unusually resistant to everyday stuff. As far as flavour, this works pretty well - a mild-mannered arcanist suddenly whips out an extra edge he's gained from bargaining with questionable powers, up to and including attacking you with what's basically your own soul.

Do Shadowcasters qualify as spontaneous arcane casters for Ultimate Magus? That could be a fun way to mix them.

Thats an interesting approach. I like it.

No, sadly they do not (without homebrew). Otherwise that would be a great way to mix them. Im working on a different approach (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=298301) for mixing shadowcasters with other classes but thats another piece of homebrew, so not the topic of discussion here.

As for the theurgy, there are a couple of spellcasters (and things related) I think would work, some more work required with some than others. Archivist (HoH), Death Master (DMC), Erudite (CP), Wizard (along with any variants of it), so on.

[Gemini476]

The standard Theurge for Shadowcasters is Y X/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer 10/Mystic Theurge X. If you can cast second level (arcane?) spells at first level you can get CL 17 in the non-SC class, and CL 19 in Shadowcaster.
The problem lies in getting second-level spells at first, then. Precocious Apprentice gets you access, although spontaneous list casters will want Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell to later get ninth-level spells. Sanctum Spell will also work, and is pretty great in general for Beguilers and the like. Make sure that you don't use it to get spells two levels higher than you maximum, since that makes DMs upset.

Good classes for Theurging tend to have Int synergy, so Wizard and Beguiler are probably the best choices. Charisma is a secondary stat for Shadowcasters, but you can avoid spells with saving throws if you so wish.
Do note that you still get bonus feats from Paths when prestige classing, so grab all those Shadow Magic feats.

Good Mysteries include Flicker, three-turn-longer Time Stop, standard action Break Enchantment, and the crazy debuff Black Labyrinth.

Overall Shadowcasters tend to work better as NPCs and BBEGs, since those are less constrained by uses/day.

[Chronos]

The designers seemed to think in spots that the Shadowcaster was supposed to be arcane, but they never actually say so (quite the opposite, actually, that they can only qualify for prestige classes that do not specify arcane or divine). They also say things like that Shadowcasters can qualify and advance as one half of Mystic Theurge, but they never actually specify which half, so per RAW, you can use Mystic Theurge to finish off a Noctumancer build. I think that they only intended it to count as the arcane half, so they wouldn't have to write up a separate Shadowcaster/Divine PrC, but that's not what they said.

[Xuldarinar]

The designers seemed to think in spots that the Shadowcaster was supposed to be arcane, but they never actually say so (quite the opposite, actually, that they can only qualify for prestige classes that do not specify arcane or divine). They also say things like that Shadowcasters can qualify and advance as one half of Mystic Theurge, but they never actually specify which half, so per RAW, you can use Mystic Theurge to finish off a Noctumancer build. I think that they only intended it to count as the arcane half, so they wouldn't have to write up a separate Shadowcaster/Divine PrC, but that's not what they said.

"Exception: Shadowcasters can qualify for the mystic theurge prestige class (DMG 192). In order to do so, they are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd-level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd-level spells. THey must meet all other requirements for the prestige class normally. In addition, if a shadowcaster takes cleric levels to meet the divine spellcasting requirement, he must be devoted to a god that grants access to one of the following domains: Knowledge, Magic, Darkness*, or Illusion*."

My interpretation is that it can be for either half.

[Chronos]

Mine too, I just don't think that that's what the designers intended. I think the "if a shadowcaster takes cleric levels to meet the divine spellcasting requirement" part was supposed to mean as opposed to druid, or some other divine class.

[Piggy Knowles]

Shadowcaster 13/Binder 7 with three bloodline levels wouldn't be a terrible build, but MAN would it be rough levelling that bad boy up. (Alternatively, go cheesy and dip into a few different binding PrCs to have bloodlines skyrocket your effective binding level).

But unfortunately, shadowcaster in particular doesn't really play nice with others. A dip is a great idea, especially to make the lower levels less painful, but more than that and you end up losing out on the higher level mysteries, which are the whole dang reason you'd play a shadowcaster in the first place.

Add in the fact that a binder can get one of the shadowcaster's iconic (and best) mysteries, Flicker, via one of its vestiges, and I'm left wondering why the heck you'd even bother with the levels in shadowcaster.

I could see a pickpocket build with mostly binder, plus some splashes into shadowcaster for the Night's Long Fingers, I guess.

(Note that I love love love the shadowcaster, so I'm not trying to slam it. Very flavorful and fun class, but it has some problems in the execution, and they become especially apparent when you try to make it blend like this.)

[Flickerdart]

Mine too, I just don't think that that's what the designers intended. I think the "if a shadowcaster takes cleric levels to meet the divine spellcasting requirement" part was supposed to mean as opposed to druid, or some other divine class.
It seems to me that they intended it to work for both. The cleric exception is only mentioned because of the domain thing.


But unfortunately, shadowcaster in particular doesn't really play nice with others. A dip is a great idea, especially to make the lower levels less painful, but more than that and you end up losing out on the higher level mysteries, which are the whole dang reason you'd play a shadowcaster in the first place.
What about using one of the PrCs? Shadowsmith is pretty okay, and grants mystery progression.

[Piggy Knowles]

What about using one of the PrCs? Shadowsmith is pretty okay, and grants mystery progression.

The only downside to shadowsmith is that, while it grants mysteries, it only grants you three, and it doesn't give you any exception to the rules for learning new mysteries. So, at the most, you can have a single second-level mystery and that's it. As a rule, second level mysteries aren't all that great.

I've toyed around with a Night's Long Fingers build using shadowsmith, because that's one of the better mysteries around and it's only first level. However, because shadowsmith doesn't grant you any fundamentals, you won't have Umbral Hand to use it with. If your DM allows you to use one of the first-level mystery slots to pick up Umbral Hand, though, then a shadowsmith with Umbral Hand/Quicker than the Eye/Bend Perspective could be pretty neat. All the general utility of a shadowsmith, plus you can spy around corners and pick people's pockets.

[peacenlove]

I've toyed around with a Night's Long Fingers build using shadowsmith, because that's one of the better mysteries around and it's only first level. However, because shadowsmith doesn't grant you any fundamentals, you won't have Umbral Hand to use it with. If your DM allows you to use one of the first-level mystery slots to pick up Umbral Hand, though, then a shadowsmith with Umbral Hand/Night's Long Fingers/Bend Perspective could be pretty neat. All the general utility of a shadowsmith, plus you can spy around corners and pick people's pockets.

You can take a fundamental instead of a mystery by RAW.




But unfortunately, shadowcaster in particular doesn't really play nice with others. A dip is a great idea, especially to make the lower levels less painful, but more than that and you end up losing out on the higher level mysteries, which are the whole dang reason you'd play a shadowcaster in the first place.


Retraining that level via PHB2 rules would help a shadowcaster, as well as retraining his intelligence at higher levels (where the 19 you would need could come through items or tomes for the paranoid). That fighter warblade level is excellent for casting in medium armor and shoring up your swifts / immediates until you cover these with items for example.

Binder is rather stale until he gets his second vestige too. Sometimes some builds (caster oriented ones) are until the third, when you finally have build your gear and your combo vestiges.

[Piggy Knowles]

You can take a fundamental instead of a mystery by RAW.

Shadowcasters can, shadowsmiths can't. They have an explicit clause that says "you do not gain fundamentals."

[eggynack]

Just play a wizard 20, and yell about how you're using a mystery, utterance, or vestige, depending on your mood. Anyone who calls you on it gets killed in a single round. It's the classy way to go.

[Vedhin]

Has anyone mentioned binding Balam to reroll a Truespeak check every 5 rounds?