Evil Gish Redux

[Chilingsworth]

So, several months ago, I asked for help with a bardadin gish. I've been enjoying the character since. Still, I'd appreciate help with refinements.

My projected build, feat and spell choices:

Bard 8/Paladin (of Asmodeus) 2/Sublime Chord 2/ Abjurant Champion 5/Lyrical Thaumaturge 3

Cultural Bonus Feats: Able Learner Evil Organization, Second Wind, Heroic Destiny

Regular Feats:

1st: Melodic Casting
HB: Lingering Song
3rd: Song of the Heart
6th: Snowflake Wardance
9th: Gain Evil Organization Arcane Strike
12th: Combat Casting
15th: Extra Spell Known (5th)
18th: ???

Spells Known:
Bard:
0th:
Detect Magic
ghost sound
message
Prestidigitation
Light
Mending

1st:
Undetectable Alignment
Inspirational Boost
Grease
Hideous Laughter
Shield (B)

2nd:
Suggestion
Mirror Image
Glitterdust
Invisibility
Kelore's Grave Mist (B)

3rd:
Haste
Charm Monster
Glibness

Sublime Chord:

4th:
Dominate Person
Dimension Door
Greater Mirror Image
Celerity

5th:
Cloudkill
Overland Flight
Wall of Force (F)
Greater Dispel Magic
Draconic Vision

6th:
Irresitable Dance
Freezing Fog
Mass Charm Monster
Greater Anticipate Teleportation

7th:
Greater Teleport
Energy Immunity
Simaculrum


8th:
Mind Blank
Greater Shadow Evocation
Maze

9th:
Effulgent Epuration
Shades


I'm currently level 8 (Pal 2/Brd 6), about to reach level 9 (Pal 2/Brd 7). How does my path look to you guys?

Thanks for your time.

[HylianKnight]

Ooo this seems like a really cool build. I definitely want to keep the idea in my back pocket for future adventures.

Presumably you need to take the Devoted Performer feat in there right? In order to get over the alignment requirements for Lawful Paladins and Non-Lawful Bards, as well as actually making the two levels of Paladin more worth it (not losing out on performance and actually getting a decent pick-up from Paladin with your 10th-level smiting ability).

[Chilingsworth]

Ooo this seems like a really cool build. I definitely want to keep the idea in my back pocket for future adventures.

Presumably you need to take the Devoted Performer feat in there right? In order to get over the alignment requirements for Lawful Paladins and Non-Lawful Bards, as well as actually making the two levels of Paladin more worth it (not losing out on performance and actually getting a decent pick-up from Paladin with your 10th-level smiting ability).

Well, the alignment issue isn't a problem. Bards can be lawful in this setting. Also, the character is a Lawful Evil paladin of Asmodeus. I don't think devoted performer is available in this setting, either.

I'm really looking for advice on my spell selection.

[A_S]

Looks good. A few questions/bits of advice:

-----

1. Have you gotten your DM's permission to advance Sublime Chord casting with your LT levels, rather than Bard casting? By default, it only advances Bard.

2. I would consider taking a level of Crusader at 9 or 10 to pick up White Raven Tactics (also opening up Song of the White Raven for swift action bardic music activation). Replace your 8th level of Bard if you go for this option.

3. There's an ACF in one of the Eberron sourcebooks that lets you trade out one type of Bardic Music (usually Suggestion) for a bonus feat from a list which includes Song of the Heart. Nothing about the ACF really seems setting-specific to me. See if you can get it OK'ed.

4. Check out one of the bard guides floating around out there and think about whether you want to pick up any of the other ACF's that are available to bards. For instance, I generally consider Healing Hymn to be substantially more useful than Fascinate.

5. Your spell list looks excellent. I'd consider a few changes, but most of them are just personal preference:

I don't see a reliable way to give yourself a miss chance. I personally never leave the house without Greater Blinking if I can help it. Not sure what you'd swap out for it; maybe Cloudkill.
Simulacrum is an awesome spell, but I'm not sure it passes the "will I use this spell every day" test that's required for Sorcerer (and Sublime Chord) spell choices.
I would want to fit in at least one of the Bite of the X spells. Bonus natural attacks and bigger bonuses to Str than you can get from items. Good stuff.
Arcane Spellsurge is pretty great for gishes, since it lets you throw out a buff or debuff with your swift action every round, then fight with the rest of your actions.


*edit* Oh yeah, WHERE IS DRAGONFIRE INSPIRATION?

[Chilingsworth]

Looks good. A few questions/bits of advice:

-----

1. Have you gotten your DM's permission to advance Sublime Chord casting with your LT levels, rather than Bard casting? By default, it only advances Bard.

2. I would consider taking a level of Crusader at 9 or 10 to pick up White Raven Tactics (also opening up Song of the White Raven for swift action bardic music activation). Replace your 8th level of Bard if you go for this option.

3. There's an ACF in one of the Eberron sourcebooks that lets you trade out one type of Bardic Music (usually Suggestion) for a bonus feat from a list which includes Song of the Heart. Nothing about the ACF really seems setting-specific to me. See if you can get it OK'ed.

4. Check out one of the bard guides floating around out there and think about whether you want to pick up any of the other ACF's that are available to bards. For instance, I generally consider Healing Hymn to be substantially more useful than Fascinate.

5. Your spell list looks excellent. I'd consider a few changes, but most of them are just personal preference:

I don't see a reliable way to give yourself a miss chance. I personally never leave the house without Greater Blinking if I can help it. Not sure what you'd swap out for it; maybe Cloudkill.
Simulacrum is an awesome spell, but I'm not sure it passes the "will I use this spell every day" test that's required for Sorcerer (and Sublime Chord) spell choices.
I would want to fit in at least one of the Bite of the X spells. Bonus natural attacks and bigger bonuses to Str than you can get from items. Good stuff.
Arcane Spellsurge is pretty great for gishes, since it lets you throw out a buff or debuff with your swift action every round, then fight with the rest of your actions.


*edit* Oh yeah, WHERE IS DRAGONFIRE INSPIRATION?

1. My DM is considering it. If not, I'll probably replace them with Cloaked Dancer.

2. I have considered it. Though I'd probably go with warblade instead for IHS.

3. My DM doesn't allow ACF's. :smallfrown:

4. Ditto, and I agree about Healing Hymn.

5.

* I'm going to invest in a mithralmist shirt, to give myself 7/D obscuring mist. Greater blink might still be a good idea, but I want to have effective arcane offenses.

* You're right about Simulacrum, but I'm not sure what to replace it with. For that matter, I'd be interested in suggestions for a replacement for greater anticipate teleportation.

* Hmm, I hadn't considered that.

* What is Arcane Spellsurge? What book is it in?

Oh, and Dragonfire inspiration requires draconic heritage (silverbrow humans and other dragonbloods aren't available) And I don't think I can afford the two feats. Also, I'm not sure that the feat is available at all in this setting. Lastly, all dragons in this setting breathe fire, so I only have the most commonly resisted element available.

[A_S]

* What is Arcane Spellsurge? What book is it in?

It's a level 7 sorc/wiz spell from Dragon Magic. It lasts 1 round/level and reduces the casting time of every spell you cast from standard>swift or full-round>standard.

The down side is that the reduction isn't optional, so if you want to be casting spells with all of your actions, you have to find some way of making one spell you cast every round have a full-round casting time (so that it gets reduced to standard, since you can't take two swift actions in a round). The usual way to do that is to be a Sorcerer and increase your casting times with metamagic.

If you're a gish, though, you can just spend your swift actions on spellcasting and the rest of your actions hitting things.

[Chilingsworth]

Hmm, well Contrary to my expectations, Song of the white raven is available. Though using a swift action BM would prevent me from applying inspirational boost. Dragonfire inspiration isn't even available at all, lol.

Bite of the were X spells exist... but only on the druid (and one cleric domain) list. :smallfrown:

Arcane spellsurge might be interesting. It's definitely a candidate to replace Simaculrum.

If I do go with an initiator level, it'll probably be warblade with maneuvers of wall of blades, IHS, and WRT, and a stance of Leading the Charge... but I'm loathe to lose the bard spells and spells known.

[Chilingsworth]

So, still trying to consider good spells to replace greater anticipate teleportation and simaculrum. And a good 18th level feat.

I'm disinclined to take an initiator level, because the spells known and spell slots I'd lose strike me as more useful.

[A_S]

If you do end up wanting Arcane Spellsurge, it'd replace Simulacrum.

For Greater Anticipate Teleportation, maybe Snowsong? It's a pretty good mass buff/debuff spell, from Frostburn.

As for feats, I just noticed that you don't have Arcane Strike! I'd want to take that a lot earlier than 18th level on any gish build...

[Chilingsworth]

If you do end up wanting Arcane Spellsurge, it'd replace Simulacrum.

For Greater Anticipate Teleportation, maybe Snowsong? It's a pretty good mass buff/debuff spell, from Frostburn.

As for feats, I just noticed that you don't have Arcane Strike! I'd want to take that a lot earlier than 18th level on any gish build...

I had forgotten about snowsong. Not sure if it's available in my DM's setting, though.

And yeah, I thought about arcane strike. I suppose I could take it at 9th level, and get my evil organization by trading able learner for it.

I'm not quite convinced spellsurge is worth it for this character. But waves of exhaustion might be...

Thanks for all the advice, A_S! :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Snowsong doesn't appear to be available. :smallfrown:
Also, even if I do find a 6th level spell to take, I'll still try to get the wizard to take greater anticipate teleportation. (Incidentally, I'm one of four casters: a wizard, a cleric, a dread necro, and me.) The other party members are a crusader and a swordsage.

[Grim Reader]

Take a look at Dragon Compendiums Bloodline Feats. They give you one additional spell of each level and some are quite, quite good.

[Piggy Knowles]

Take a look at Dragon Compendiums Bloodline Feats. They give you one additional spell of each level and some are quite, quite good.

Yeah, they're mixed bags overall for gishes, but there are some solid options regardless. If nothing else, it's a single feat for three or four useful spells known, making it a much better deal than, say, Extra Spell. I use it to decent effect in my own take on the evil gish, Magnus Veritas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286800).

[A_S]

So, I doubt it'll be allowed, but I just did some digging for one of my own builds and turned up the spell Fanfare. It's from Song and Silence (which is 3.0, but the spell hasn't been updated as far as I can tell). Creatures in a 100 foot cone take a fort save; on a successful save, they are stunned for 1d4 rounds and deafened for double that; on a failed save, they also take 4d6 damage. Not mind-affecting.

I'm surprised I've never heard of this spell before. AoE stunning for 1d4 rounds with no save is no joke.

[Chilingsworth]

Yeah, that spell sounds nasty. And no, it's not allowed. :smallsigh:

[macdaddy]

Well, I know its about 2 months too late, BUT

spells:
1st: drop hideous laughter, add improvisation.
Great for adding a bunch of bonuses to any d20 roll

2nd: drop suggestion, add wraithstrike. You already have bardic suggestion, which is better, and even if you nixed that through an ACF, which you said wasn't allowed, its not all that. Besides, glibness is a pretty good alternative to it. as a Gish, wraithstrike is GOLD

drop grave mist or mirror image for bladeweave.
you already have greater mirror image, so don't need the duplication. You can always add in a wand of mirror image while you are at the in-between levels. bladeweave is a nice free daze effect anytime you hit on a swift action spell

Question: Why no Alter Self or Polymorph? I find Alter self to be great flexibility. Need to Fly? Need an AC Boost? Need Spring attack? Need to pass yourself off as someone else (coupled with glibness, its pretty cool). Polymorph also has some really good forms for a gish (giants, trolls, etc) and is also a great utility.


Feats:
Drop lingering song, add Power Attack
With wraithstrike and/or bardic music to hit bonuses, even doing a -5 power attack would add a nice +10 to dmg with either a 2 handed weapon or a 1-handed weapon wielded in 2 hands. Besides, you already have melodic casting...

snowflake wardance only works with one-handed slashing weapons, so while useful, its not really all that great. maybe consider knowledge devotion if you have the available skill points to dump into knowledge skills. A free +1/+1 on every swing that can easily be +2 or +3 with decent knowledge skills is a pretty solid alternative