How to get the most strength for the lowest LA

[flamewolf393]

I am trying to min/max the damage per hit on a 2-handed melee character. What templates/monsters would give me the most strength and damage boost for the least LA cost?

[Greymane]

Probably Mineral Warrior from the Underdark book or Half-Minotaur from a Dragon Magazine I believe, but don't know which one. Both +1 LA, both give some pretty nice buffs to beatsticks. Half-Minotaur even knocks you up to Large size IIRC.

[TroubleBrewing]

Half-minotaur gives +12 Str, and it can be combined with Half-Ogre from the same magazine for no additional LA for an extra +4.

+1 LA for +16 Str. Start with Orc as the base creature, and that's +20.

[Greymane]

Half-minotaur gives +12 Str, and it can be combined with Half-Ogre from the same magazine for no additional LA for an extra +4.

+1 LA for +16 Str. Start with Orc as the base creature, and that's +20.

:smalleek:

I've never looked at Half-Minotaur before, I just hear stories, but +12 Str for +1 LA seems a mite bit on the insane side. Even by Wizards or Paizo standards.

[Zanos]

Lolth-Touched for +1 LA. +6 Str +6 Con. Immunity to fear as well, I believe.

[FullStop]

Half-minotaur gives +12 Str, and it can be combined with Half-Ogre from the same magazine for no additional LA for an extra +4.

+1 LA for +16 Str. Start with Orc as the base creature, and that's +20.

How does that even work from an ancestry standpoint, like your parents were a Half-mino/Half-orc and a Half-ogre/Half-orc? Half- templates(I assume these are templates) are hilarious.

[dgnslyr]

I guess "half" doesn't mean exactly one-half, but "a fair bit Minotaur Orc Fighter" doesn't sound quite as catchy.

[ShurikVch]

Is it for real game or just theoretical?
If not for real, then the best option is Exceptional Petitioner Advanced Red Great Wyrm.
Str 59, 2 HD, LA +0.

[JanusJones]

If you don't want to sacrifice a level (or the Half-Minotaur is too much cheese for your DM), try a Water Orc (Unearthed Arcana) with the Wild template (Dragon #306) for +6 Str/+2 Con.

Dragonlance also, in the Bestiary of Krynn, has the Proto-creature template which adds another +4 for +0 LA. That way, no need to be large - just buff.

Puts me in mind of a build I made recently called, simply, "The Strongest." Think hulk, only without becoming large sized - I wanted the strongest possible character without changing size (it never seems heroic to change size):

Three ways to do it ...

RACE:
Proto-Creature Wild Water Orc
The best part? Green skin and hair. The HULK, baby. “Don’t make me angry … you wouldn’t LIKE me when I’m angry …”
CLASS:
Lion Totem Barbarian 6/Eye of Gruumsh 2/Primal Rager 1/Barbarian 11
Str: 60 (+25) = 18 (base) +10 (race) + 4 (feats) + 4 (Gruumsh) + 6 (rage) + 18 (primal)
Con: 48 (+18) = 16 (base) + 4 (race) + 4 (feats) + 6 (rage) + 18 (primal)
Advantages: +2 Str for +2 feats … not really worth it. On the other hand, technically this IS the “strongest” build. One eye is also kinda ‘meh.
FEATS:
Shadow Marches Warmonger (1st),
Weapon Focus: Orcish Double Axe (3rd),
Reckless Rage,
Khyber’s Fury (6th),
Improved Unarmed Strike (Primal Rager 1),
Iron Will (9th),
Power Attack (12th),
Endurance (15th),
Steadfast Determination (18th), Extended Rage, Extended Rage
Lion Totem Barbarian 6/Primal Rager 1/Barbarian 11
Str: 58 (+24) = 18 (base) +10 (race) + 4 (feats) + 8 (rage) + 18 (primal)
Con: 50 (+20) = 16 (base) + 4 (race) + 4 (feats) + 8 (rage) + 18 (primal)
Advantages: Simple build, no wasted feats (Shadow Marches Warmonger, WP Focus) = more extended rage earlier, better Con
FEATS:
Reckless Rage (1st)
Khyber’s Fury (flaw),
Extra Rage (flaw),
Tireless (3rd),
Extended Rage (6th),
Improved Unarmed Strike (Primal Rager 1),
Iron Will (9th),
Power Attack (12th),
Endurance (15th),
Steadfast Determination (18th), Extended Rage, Extended Rage
Lion Totem Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 2/Primal Rager 1/Frenzied Berserker 8/Barbarian 3
Str: 56 (+23) = 18 (base) +10 (race) + 4 (feats) + 10 (frenzy) + 4 (rage) + 10 (primal)
Con: 50 (+20) = 16 (base) + 4 (race) + 4 (feats) + 4 (rage) + 10 (primal)
Advantages: Does WAY more damage (Supreme Power Attack = ridiculous damage), but requires Cleave, Destructive Rage, and Intimidating Rage … argh.

I didn't include level bonuses or items in there, so add another 5 from levels, 5 from a Tome, and 6 from an item for another +16.

Primal Rager, BTW, is from Dragon #295. I figured he wouldn't even use a weapon against foes he considered "weak," but just punch them with subdual till they passed out. He'd reserve power attacking and charging and such for "worthy" foes - you know, with Str scores past 40.

:smallsmile:

[FullStop]

I guess "half" doesn't mean exactly one-half, but "a fair bit Minotaur Orc Fighter" doesn't sound quite as catchy.

Then why not, say, "Minotaur-blooded" or "Ogre-blooded"?

[JanusJones]

Oh! On that Lloth-touched note, I almost forgot the oldest trick in the book - an Incarnate Construct Warforged!

Dragonborn Lloth-Touched, Draconic Warforged Incarnate Construct
:+3 Nat AC, STR +8, DEX -2, CON +12, WIS -2, +4 Hide, +4 Move Silently, +2 Intimidate, +2 Spot

... and all for +0 LA! Cheers!

[Chronos]

I've never looked at Half-Minotaur before, I just hear stories, but +12 Str for +1 LA seems a mite bit on the insane side. Even by Wizards or Paizo standards.
It was probably unintentional. The template says something like "If size increases, modify ability scores as normal for a creature advanced to a larger size", which means to refer to the rules in the Monster Manual, which adds a big strength increase on top of what the template adds directly. Presumably, whoever wrote the template was too lazy to look up the rules they were referencing.

[Invader]

Half-minotaur gives +12 Str, and it can be combined with Half-Ogre from the same magazine for no additional LA for an extra +4.

+1 LA for +16 Str. Start with Orc as the base creature, and that's +20.

Definitely one of the more broken things in dragon magazine.

The alternative is to play an actual minotaur for +8 str and be saddled with 6 RHD and a +2 LA. Think there was a miscommunication somewhere :smallamused:

[Humble Master]

The alternative is to play an actual minotaur for +8 str and be saddled with 6 RHD and a +2 LA. Think there was a miscommunication somewhere :smallamused: I'm fairly certain that a race as cheesy as Half Minotaur was made by Pun-Pun.

And yes, if you want maximum Str for minimum LA Half Minotaur + templates is the way to go. Check with your DM though. Having 30+ Str at 1st level will probably earn you a DMG to the face.

[Zanos]

I'm fairly certain that a race as cheesy as Half Minotaur was made by Pun-Pun.

And yes, if you want maximum Str for minimum LA Half Minotaur + templates is the way to go. Check with your DM though. Having 30+ Str at 1st level will probably earn you a DMG to the face.
If your party is home to any full casters, I doubt they will actually care much that your fighter or babarian hits hard.

[Chronos]

At first level, any strength above about +6 is probably wasted. There's not much practical difference between "kill in one hit" and "reduce to a cloud of red mist in one hit". Though I suppose the increase in hit chance is nice.

[Mithril Leaf]

Technically +0 LA, a Proto Wild Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale is great fun.

EDIT: +18 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -6 Int, +4 Wis, -8 Cha, and +14 natural armor. Large size and your Racial Hit Dice count as barbarian levels for rages per day.

[TroubleBrewing]

Throwing Lolth-touched on top of the aformentioned "way too many halves" build is pretty great. +26 Str for +2 LA. Also like +14 or +16 Con. And Large size.

Zanos is right, though. The 3rd level human Wizard will still end any encounter just as easily. And if things get PvP-ish, Web+Invisibility pretty much beats 44 Str.

[Lateral]

Technically +0 LA, a Proto Wild Half-Ogre Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale is great fun.

EDIT: +18 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -6 Int, +4 Wis, -8 Cha, and +14 natural armor. Large size and your Racial Hit Dice count as barbarian levels for rages per day.
What's this 'proto' and 'wild' you're talking about?

[Metahuman1]

Is it for real game or just theoretical?
If not for real, then the best option is Exceptional Petitioner Advanced Red Great Wyrm.
Str 59, 2 HD, LA +0.

Could you give books and page numbers for Exceptional, Petitioner and Advanced?

And how you got LA 0 HD 2 on a Red Great Wyrm?

I'm actually really curious here.

[grarrrg]

Then why not, say, "Minotaur-blooded" or "Ogre-blooded"?

Short answer: Because.
Long answer: Think of the Base races, you have Half-Elves and Half-Orcs. If you were to call them "Elf-blooded" people would look at them, and look at Elves and go "what?".


Buy yes, "half" doesn't strictly mean "half".
It just means "significant ancestry".

[Mithril Leaf]

What's this 'proto' and 'wild' you're talking about?

Proto-Creature is a template from the Bestiary of Krynn, it gives +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha, and some other goodies. Wild is a template from Dragon Magazine 306, it gives +2 Str in exchange for -2 Int and -2 Cha. It also goes by Wilderness-Dweller.

[ShurikVch]

Could you give books and page numbers for Exceptional, Petitioner and Advanced?

And how you got LA 0 HD 2 on a Red Great Wyrm?

I'm actually really curious here.

Advanced Dragon is monster from Epic Level Handbook. Example monster (Advanced Red Great Wyrm) have 61 HD and LA +0.

Exceptional Petitioner is variant of Petitioner template from Manual of the Planes. Any petitioners have 2 HD. MotP itself and 3.5 update to it not mentioned LA, which mean:
It uses all the base creature’s statistics and special abilities except as noted here. Thus Petitioner template (and, by extension, Exceptional Petitioner) have LA +0.
Despite being demoted to 2 HD outsiders, Petitioner keeps all abilities of original creature, except hp, BAB, skills, feats, (sp) and (su). Exceptional Petitioner also keeps skills and feats.

Some problems can cause string
Advancement: None.
But several other templates have string
Advancement: By character class.