Praise for the Giant for turning a running gag into powerful social commentary

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

I've been thinking about Varsuvius. The gender thread popped up and the greatest moment thread, etc.

But it hit me that while the "Is the elf a male or a female or intersexed or a transgendered person" discussion may rage, or at least rave, on, that V is one of the few examples in literature I can think of where the characters gender is obfuscated but that obfuscation is meaningless. At least for now, though I suspect that may be the case until the very end.

V is a gendered character that is defined by everything but that gender. Man, woman, something else, it doesn't matter to who and what the character is.

You've likely received praise like this before Mr. Burlew, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't hear it again. Varsuvius' gender may have begun as a prank or a running gag, but now, with a page count which rivals LOTR, they are a character who has transcended gender bias and become a deep, moving creation without the baggage of gender arche/sterotypes.

I know you have a story to tell, and will tell it your way, but I hope you never reveal V's gender, so as to preserve this wonderful statement about the irrelevance of gender when judging a person.

Congratulations, and thank you for your wonderful work.

[EvilAvocado]

Amen!

This post deserves cookies!

[crayzz]

I doubt it was social commentary. It was a joke. It makes a good point; gender really should mean nothing when judging somebody. But I don't think the author had that in mind when the joke began.

[Alaris]

I doubt it was social commentary. It was a joke. It makes a good point; gender really should mean nothing when judging somebody. But I don't think the author had that in mind when the joke began.

It started as a joke, yes, but it became much more than that.

The OP and The Giant deserve props. ^_^

[Bird]

Here here!

[Tridax]

Preach, brother!

Now that I think of it, it becomes more clear. V is truly not judged by his/her sex.

(Actually I tended to think V was more female until the desert arc, where his actions became less motivated by emotion and more by common sence. Oh, and the haircut somehow felt more masculine than the previous one.)

[martianmister]

I really doubt that there's any kind of social commentary in V's gender.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think in this case any social commentary comes entirely through audience interpretation, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that the author - intentionally or not - created the situation to be interpreted in such a positive and affirmative way. When you look at all the gender-essentialism running rampant throughout fiction, a character with no specific gender and no specific gender traits is downright refreshing, even if the joke's purpose was originally about androgyny in fantasy elves and/or players too lazy to assign even a gender to their Elf Wizard 5. (The latter interpretation of the joke gets thrown out more recently now that V has some backstory and connection to the game world, of course.)


(Actually I tended to think V was more female until the desert arc, where his actions became less motivated by emotion and more by common sence. Oh, and the haircut somehow felt more masculine than the previous one.)

Speaking of gender-essentialism.

[sam79]

I wouldn't be so sure. Have you read the OotS colouring book? :smallwink:

Whatever V started out as (and if I remember correctly, the author didn't think of him/her as having an ambiguous gender until he spoke to his gaming group, and they didn't all see him/her in the same way; he then when with the ambiguity), there is some social commentary there too.

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

I really doubt that there's any kind of social commentary in V's gender.

Perhaps not deliberate, though I'll argue that the Giant has shown he is sensitive to LGBT issues, but it's there. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15057433#post15057433) and here too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15055919#post15055919)

The character is likely gendered, but for all purposes of literary criticism is genderless. This is a magnificent feat of writing and IS social commentary, whether the author intended it, or likes it, or not. OoTS is enough of a cultural phenomenon to make it as influential as a sitcom or a film, and we've seen groundbreaking characters in those mediums as well. V belongs to a VERY select few characters where a gender is implicit, but the actual gender is obfuscated. This may have begun as a joke, but 800 strips later, it's a notable item of criticism in a novel or so length work.

[Ted The Bug]

Not for the whole obsession with perpetuating gender roles, or the whole obsession with removing them, but I agree that it's certainly interesting to see how people react to V as a character.

[NerdyKris]

Preach, brother!

Now that I think of it, it becomes more clear. V is truly not judged by his/her sex.

(Actually I tended to think V was more female until the desert arc, where his actions became less motivated by emotion and more by common sence. Oh, and the haircut somehow felt more masculine than the previous one.)

Well this thread took a giant leap into sexist assumptions rather quickly.

[FlawedParadigm]

I actually used to have a belief on the whole thing, but I find I prefer having a character whose gender is wholly immaterial to who they are. Anyone familiar with Shale from Dragon Age might be able to appreciate what I'm getting at. Really, Haley sort of fits too. She has rare (traditionally) girly moments, but they're not things which define who she is, she's never been a helpless damsel or anything of the sort. Those of you who have the Haleo and Julelan Kickstarter piece will know more of what I'm getting at here. (That's probably not a spoiler per se, but if it is, I'll look in in a couple of hours or so and cover it up if someone wants.)

I don't want to rekindle an old bit from a locked thread but I remember Rich at one point lamenting that he felt he didn't write female characters very well because of reactions to Miko and Celia. It's one of those things I disagree with Rich about because I say look at Haley, Therkla, Sabine, Niu, Kazumi, Lien, or all the other characters that work just fine.

I mean my belief is sex is only important for mating concerns and that gender really shouldn't define people at all. What's it matter if anyone perceives or prefers to think of themselves as one gender, the other, or both? But then I certainly have things in common with both traditional genders, so I'm surely biased. I've been in internet chats with gender-neutral names and told people I don't care what gender they think of or perceive me as because it simply doesn't matter to me how they choose to perceive such a thing. I'd rather be measured by pretty much any other standard.

[/soapbox]

[Ring_of_Gyges]

I tend to read V as female, but the new miniature reads as male to me. I think it's the hair.

But we shouldn't judge V by his/her gender, we should judge him/her by his/her obsession with power and the occasional bit of genocide.

[Mike Havran]

V is a gendered character that is defined by everything but that gender. Man, woman, something else, it doesn't matter to who and what the character is.

Well, yes.

I despise Vaarsuvius and it has absolutely nothing to do with the gender or the lack of it :smalltongue:

[Bulldog Psion]

Yes, it wasn't deliberate, but it was certainly a bit of interesting commentary on how a personality appears when viewed through an essentially gender-neutral lens.

[littlebum2002]

Belkar apparently thinks V is a female, owing from the "incident".

I also remember a thread on this forum (EDIT:here) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279142) that was criticizing Rich for not having any LGBT characters in the strip. An argument started in the thread as to whether or not V and V's mate were a same-sex couple. The argument was that, if they were not a same-sex couple, then Rich did a disservice to the LGBT community by not including any in the strip.

Then someone (it may have been Rich himself, may have been someone else) pointed out that it actually supports the community MORE by having a genderless couple, since they show that someone does not have to be defined by their gender or sexual orientation.


EDIT: I do think the earlier poster was correct that Rich did not initially write V as a genderless character. He once mentioned that Haley was the "smurfette" in the original strips, thus hinting that all the other members were male.

Still, I read V as a female with a (ex) stay-at-home husband (mainly because I've always wanted to be one!)

[luc258]

I would suggest leaving current social and political movements out of this board, as it is not wanted. V's gender is a joke, I doubt it is a social comment.

[Snails]

I do not think the Giant was attempting "social advocacy".

But he most certainly does poke fun (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0365.html) at common reactions to ambiguity.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I see V as female simply because the Lousy Parenting Brigade needs some female energy.

[Angel Bob]

Preach, brother!

Now that I think of it, it becomes more clear. V is truly not judged by his/her sex.

(Actually I tended to think V was more female until the desert arc, where his actions became less motivated by emotion and more by common sence. Oh, and the haircut somehow felt more masculine than the previous one.)

Oh dear lord. The sheer, blatant sexism of this post... Do you really mean to say that females are motivated by emotion and males by common sense? What the actual [expletive], man?! :smallfurious:

For what it's worth, though, props to the OP and the Giant. Leaving V's gender ambiguous is a great eye-opener to our society's concept of gender roles... even if it means we have to hear disgusting statements like the above.

[FujinAkari]

rlier poster was correct that Rich did not initially write V as a genderless character. He once mentioned that Haley was the "smurfette" in the original strips, thus hinting that all the other members were male.

...

The quote in question makes very clear that the smurfette comment relates to Haley being the only OOTS member who was representing the female gender -because Vaarsuvius was not exhibiting gendered traits.- Rich was pretty explicit in acknowledging that his smurfette comment is equally applicable regardless which gender the reader choose to assign to Vaarsuvius.


The truth is, I thought I had included female characters. Not in the initial group of six—I totally cop to having Smurfetted that one, even if V reads as female to you—but in the time since.

[littlebum2002]

...

The quote in question makes very clear that the smurfette comment relates to Haley being the only OOTS member who was representing the female gender -because Vaarsuvius was not exhibiting gendered traits.- Rich was pretty explicit in acknowledging that his smurfette comment is equally applicable regardless which gender the reader choose to assign to Vaarsuvius.

Thanks for the clarification. Ignore my previous comment. I read that post as "even though you personally read V as female, I wrote her as a male". I now see it really means something closer to "V can be read as male or female, but Haley was the only character written to be female"

[Kuroshima]

Personally, I see V as female. Female with low sexual dimorphism, but female.

everyone knows there are no male non-drow elves

V's attitude alternate from neutral-female to neutral-male to my ears. It's been sounding more neutral-male lately, but it seems to be periodic. In fact, I sometimes get strips where some frames made V sound male-ish and others made V sound female-ish.

The mini looks male-ish, but it's not canon, or is it?

[Ghost Nappa]

everyone knows there are no male PC non-drow elves outside LotR.


Fixed that Spoiler tag for you.

For extra confusion V and Ink could easily be a homosexual elven couple for all we know. They're both very androgynous.

10 gp says that V putting on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity would do nothing except give V a belt that couldn't be removed without magic.

[MtlGuy]

V is unhindered by having an undefined gender (or defined as undefined if you prefer). I think Burlew achieved a high quality of writing for V, particularly V's character growth. It's interesting to see a character like V who is usually detached and somewhat indifferent to the world around them come to grips with his/her guilt over the consequences of actions taken. Or how V becomes aware of his/her shortcomings regarding how he/she chooses to deploys magic.

[gorocz]

On OP - hear, hear. :smallsmile:
-----------

Fixed that Spoiler tag for you.
There really are none in LotR (counting only the trilogy) either... Legolas is a girl, who, because she has a crush on Gimli, pretends to be more masculine (beause, as she saavily knows, female dwarves look like males). Elrond is a half-elf, Celeborn is basically a house-wife to Galadriel, Glorfindel is in fact Arwen (it was in the movies so it must be true), Círdan and Gil-Galad don't actually appear in the main storyline, Haldir... well, I'm out of straw... any help? :smallbiggrin:

(P.S. Don't take this part of the post seriously)

[littlebum2002]

10 gp says that V putting on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity would do nothing except give V a belt that couldn't be removed without magic.

I was actually amazed this gag was never in the strip. Once it was established that V was gender-neutral, I thought for sure she would end up wearing the girdle somehow

[Tetsujin-28]

I can already tell that this thread is going to slide into "inappropriate discussion" territory, fast.


10 gp says that V putting on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity would do nothing except give V a belt that couldn't be removed without magic.

I like to imagine that it changes V from a very androgynous person to someone who's either very masculine or very feminine.

[Dr. Murgunstrum]

I would suggest leaving current social and political movements out of this board, as it is not wanted. V's gender is a joke, I doubt it is a social comment.

Nothing political was mentioned in my post. Social commentary is a function of art, so it comes hand in hand with discussing the webcomic. Whether it's racism, gender issues, the nature of evil, justified violence, et cetera, all of this issues have been raised by the comic and discussed a great deal.

(And if you think non-binary gender issues are a CURRENT social issue, I'd invite you to read Plato)

I would appreciate you not acting as a moderator and telling others what is and isn't wanted here.

The only "real life" comparison that I made was highlighting the fact that english literature is fairly barren when it comes to non-binary genders and that V stands out as a fairly unique example of a character who is likely gendered, but who has developed as a complete and interesting character without that information. I'm hard pressed to think of a popular character who is as well drawn as V who shares this disctinction.

One may be opposed to the idea of non-binary genders, one may not like the fact that human beings are openly discussing them once again, but I strongly doubt that the Giant, who has stated that fantasy literature without social comment is shallow escapism, and who has been shown to be sensitive to both LGBT issues and the portrayal of characters who defy traditional memes, isn't fully aware that V, 900 strips later, has transcended a running gag.

[Tridax]

Oh dear lord. The sheer, blatant sexism of this post... Do you really mean to say that females are motivated by emotion and males by common sense? What the actual [expletive], man?! :smallfurious:

For what it's worth, though, props to the OP and the Giant. Leaving V's gender ambiguous is a great eye-opener to our society's concept of gender roles... even if it means we have to hear disgusting statements like the above.

Wait, what?

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone. Didn't want to intend sexism in any way. Guess I picked wrong words while writing that. So, yeah.

[Kuroshima]

I was actually amazed this gag was never in the strip. Once it was established that V was gender-neutral, I thought for sure she would end up wearing the girdle somehow

Indeed. I would also expect that it would change V's gender, but not it's appearance.

Also, you English speakers have this kind of thing easy. In my native Spanish, many words (adjectives, nouns, etc) would change depending on the gender, so unless Rich took the masculine->generic stance, V's gender would be evident one (s)he spoke.

(example: I'm tired->Estoy cansado (m)/Estoy cansada (f))

Still, Rich, I find it impressive that you managed to handle it this well for 910 and counting strips.

[rgrekejin]

Whether it's racism, gender issues, the nature of evil, justified violence, et cetera, all of this issues have been raised by the comic and discussed a great deal.

Actually, no. I'm pretty sure that "morally justified" threads and threads pertaining to real world philosophy/religion really are frowned upon in this establishment. The fact that they pop up rather frequently and go for some time before they can be shut down doesn't mean they're any less unwanted when they do occur.

[ClockShock]

Oh dear lord. The sheer, blatant sexism of this post... Do you really mean to say that females are motivated by emotion and males by common sense? What the actual [expletive], man?! :smallfurious:


Oh dear lord. The sheer, blatant ignorance of this post... Do you really mean to say that a person's minor perception of one fictional character defines their entire outlook on the world? What the actual [expletive], man?! :smallfurious:

Seriously though, people unconsciously assign gender. I'm sure very few people can honestly say that when they first encountered V they instantly thought "that's a gender-neutral character".

V's personality has certainly changed drastically in the recent arc. If that caused a gender-assigning switch at the back of someone's mind to flick from one possibility to another that's no big deal. As intelligent beings we can ignore that switch entirely, or realise that it's irrelevant (or based on faulty perceptions).

[Tetsujin-28]

Oh dear lord. The sheer, blatant ignorance of this post... Do you really mean to say that a person's minor perception of one fictional character defines their entire outlook on the world? What the actual [expletive], man?! :smallfurious:

Seriously though, people unconsciously assign gender. I'm sure very few people can honestly say that when they first encountered V they instantly thought "that's a gender-neutral character".

V's personality has certainly changed drastically in the recent arc. If that caused a gender-assigning switch at the back of someone's mind to flick from one possibility to another that's no big deal. As intelligent beings we can ignore that switch entirely, or realise that it's irrelevant (or based on faulty perceptions).

I think it was more of the fact that he justified it by "he acts less emotional", which implies that women are naturally more emotional than men.

This whole discussion should be dropped now before it takes a nasty turn.

[The Giant]

I can already tell that this thread is going to slide into "inappropriate discussion" territory, fast.

Give the poster-of-undefined-gender a prize.

While this is a topic that would normally be OK, this thread has already dived into accusations of sexism and ignorance, and currently has more text devoted to that discussion than the original one.

Thread locked.