Dealing with Psionics

[MrRigger]

I'm starting a new campaign in the near future, and my players have done something I hadn't really thought about. They picked Psionic classes. I don't have a whole lot of experience with Psionics in general, they don't typically come up in our games, and I definitely haven't run a game for a Psionic character.

Player 1 is going with a Swordsage4, I'm not all that concerned with him. I know what Swordsages can do, I can handle Swordsages.

Player 2 is going with a Shaper Psion4, and apparently going to take the Ectopic Form feat at least once, so I'm expecting him to focus on the Astral Construct power for a lot of his combat.

Player 3 is going Ranger1/Psychic Warrior3, and supposedly sticking with Psychic Warrior from there on out.

Given that I hadn't really anticipated including Psionics in the game on any kind of heavy level, and don't have a whole lot of experience with the subsystem as a whole (I'm much more of a magic kind of guy), what pitfalls and traps should I look out for? I do know the major rule of "You can't spend more PP than your manifester level" (and the Psion player hadn't picked that one up yet), but is there anything I really need to keep an eye on? What about magic/psionic transparency? I've heard of it, but I've never dealt with it, and don't know where the rules for MPT are or what they are.

If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would be greatly appreciated.

MrRigger

[Invader]

I'm starting a new campaign in the near future, and my players have done something I hadn't really thought about. They picked Psionic classes. I don't have a whole lot of experience with Psionics in general, they don't typically come up in our games, and I definitely haven't run a game for a Psionic character.

Player 1 is going with a Swordsage4, I'm not all that concerned with him. I know what Swordsages can do, I can handle Swordsages.

Player 2 is going with a Shaper Psion4, and apparently going to take the Ectopic Form feat at least once, so I'm expecting him to focus on the Astral Construct power for a lot of his combat.

Player 3 is going Ranger1/Psychic Warrior3, and supposedly sticking with Psychic Warrior from there on out.

Given that I hadn't really anticipated including Psionics in the game on any kind of heavy level, and don't have a whole lot of experience with the subsystem as a whole (I'm much more of a magic kind of guy), what pitfalls and traps should I look out for? I do know the major rule of "You can't spend more PP than your manifester level" (and the Psion player hadn't picked that one up yet), but is there anything I really need to keep an eye on? What about magic/psionic transparency? I've heard of it, but I've never dealt with it, and don't know where the rules for MPT are or what they are.

If anyone could point me in the right direction, I would be greatly appreciated.

MrRigger

This is a good question. If you don't mind, might I add, how do you keep psionics from just feeling like regular magic spells with different names?

[JusticeZero]

Transparency means psionics == magic where it matters. Spell resistance blocks psionic powers, et cetera. Countering one counters the other. This is the default assumption, and you should not deviate from it unless you enjoy opening large cans full of worms.

Player 2 is going to summon stuff. A lot. The summons, LIKE ALL SUMMONS, are going to be very powerful. You say you've done magic a lot, so you should already understand what happens when, say, the druid decides to bury things under a mountain of angry bear flesh. Don't freak out about this. By the way, these summons are not affected by mind-affecting powers. A number of buffs are mind-affecting.

There are a small number of bizarre power synergy combos that do strange things. They get stamped out as the editions go up, so i'm not sure if there even are any in the PF psionics books, and if there are, they might have been eradicated when Ultimate Psi is released. They're easy enough to research, but most of them are easy enough to respond to with an airborne book in the head in my opinion. That said, magic has a lot of equally silly combos.

[Psyren]

1) The full transparency rule is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y); all it means in a nutshell is that you should treat psionics and magic as the same thing when it comes to detecting, dispelling, negating or resisting them. Detect Magic can detect powers, Dispel Psionics can dispel spells, Spell Resistane works against powers etc.

It also means that items treat them the same; for example an Orange Ioun Stone will increase a wizard's caster level or a psion's manifester level equally.


2) You seem to have the core point down regarding PP and ML; the Rules Summary post in my sig (by Peregrine) should get you up to speed on other stuff.


3) Your 3rd player is most likely going for Slayer. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) Nothing to worry about there, just don't be surprised if he brings it up.


4) Astral Constructs are big bruisers with a lot of immunities. You can handle them, but it's something to keep in mind. They are also not summons, so things like Protection from Evil and Dismissal will have no effect on them.


This is a good question. If you don't mind, might I add, how do you keep psionics from just feeling like regular magic spells with different names?

For the most part they should feel like spells. Just silent, still and with no material components.

One key difference is augmentation; spells scale automatically. while powers have to be powered up manually. This is both an advantage and a disadvantage - Psions get a little more flexibility and can use their "low level slots" to fuel high level effects. If there are very few encounters in a session, the psionic classes feel more powerful because they can nova out if there are only one or a few fights.

Another key difference is schools: psionics gets no illusions, no necromancy and no summoning. They can simulate some of that through metacreativity (e.g. astral constructs and granting themselves concealment) and they get some unique tricks of their own like healing and action economy.

[Lateral]

As long as you know that rule, you should be okay. Psions are powerful, but they're less powerful than, say, a Wizard or Druid; just make sure you know which powers they have, so you aren't too surprised at the tricks the player pulls out. Shapers are pretty powerful, but if he's taking Ectopic Form, he has no idea how to play to their real strengths, so you should be fine. The Psychic Warrior, you should have no trouble with- hell, at that level, he might be kind of weak if the player picks the wrong powers. They don't get much PP, so at lower levels they'll run out pretty quickly if you don't use powers with long durations.


This is a good question. If you don't mind, might I add, how do you keep psionics from just feeling like regular magic spells with different names?
Most of the powers are actually quite different from spells- there are really only a few ones that are renamed spells, and those are mostly like that because the effect is very basic and important (things like fly or teleport).


Player 2 is going to summon stuff. A lot. The summons, LIKE ALL SUMMONS, are going to be very powerful. You say you've done magic a lot, so you should already understand what happens when, say, the druid decides to bury things under a mountain of angry bear flesh. Don't freak out about this. By the way, these summons are not affected by mind-affecting powers. A number of buffs are mind-affecting.


4) Astral Constructs are big bruisers with a lot of immunities. You can handle them, but it's something to keep in mind. They are also not summons, so things like Protection from Evil and Dismissal will have no effect on them.
Keep in mind, guys, that he's said the player is taking the Ectopic Form feats. Ectopic Form. They'll be strong, yeah, but not nearly as strong as they would be if that player really knew what he was doing.

[Chained Birds]

I will say be wary of the Psion trying to create a metric ton of poisons. This is also found with any caster that eventually gets Minor/Major Creation, but a Shaper gets Minor Creation at level 1... So just be wary of it if he tries to pull this stunt.

[JusticeZero]

This is a good question. If you don't mind, might I add, how do you keep psionics from just feeling like regular magic spells with different names?
That is essentially all they are. Personally, I just emphasize the fluff; Wizards make glyphs and circles and study strange books and incantations, Psions rub crystals, meditate and fast a lot, Clerics rave in temples and moralize a lot while discussing theology and rubbing holy symbols and pondering "What would Apollo do?", and Druids prance around naked in the woods talking to mice and nibbling on bits of shrubbery. Beyond that, at the core, they're just tossing off magic spells.

[erikun]

I would mention that the other big thing to be aware of is the psionic focus, how it works and what it does. You need to expend a psionic focus to use metapsionic feats (and expending a focus powers only one) and to make use of some combat feats, like Psionic Weapon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicWeapon) Most of the time, a character will spend a full-round action to become psionically focused, but can reduce that to a move action with the Psionic Meditation feat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psionicMeditation). The rules for doing so are in the Concentration skill destription in the Expanded Psionic Handbook. (or here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm#gainPsionicFocus))

For your Shaper Psion4, they will be using the Astral Construct power. A lot. On the plus side, despite its complexity, you only have one power and one creature to be familiar with rather than dozens. Here is the power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm) and here is the creature. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/astralConstruct.htm) In general, the level of the Astral Construct is roughly equal to the level of a creature that a spellcaster can summon; the 2nd-level Astral Construct requires 3 PP, and so isn't available until 3rd character level (just like 2nd-level spells).

The biggest thing to be aware of with Ranger1/Psychic Warrior3 are (at low level) Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm), which functions like Enlarge Person for themselves and can be given a larger version at 7th PsyWar level, and Psionic Lion's Charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psionicLionsCharge.htm), which allows a full attack after moving. (Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm) is similar.)

Other than that, Vigor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/vigor.htm) is quite popular in psionics for its great PP-for-HP exchange when used before battle. Your players may not know about it, but it does provide a great pre-battle HP buff if they find themselves running out too quickly.

[Rubik]

I will say be wary of the Psion trying to create a metric ton of poisons. This is also found with any caster that eventually gets Minor/Major Creation, but a Shaper gets Minor Creation at level 1... So just be wary of it if he tries to pull this stunt.I would require a craft check for anything serious. Poison ivy isn't particularly dangerous, and the victim just ends up with a rash (unless your hydras are especially allergic, I guess), but stuff like black lotus extract should probably require Craft (Alchemy). Pine pitch, food and ale, and various simple tools should be fine, however, though you may want a basic craft check to determine the quality of the goods produced, when it matters at all.

If you want to give your shaper player a bit of a nudge, he'd probably be really happy with the 3.5 constructor, found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) It's a REALLY fun class.

Note that astral constructs are of the construct type, and they're created by ectoplasm, and as mentioned, they are not summoned. They have lots of immunities and some nice abilities, but they're far more limited than the creatures pulled in via Summon Monster. Fun, but limited.

Mostly, psionics uses a lot of magic's mechanics. Your "spells" get auto-Still Spell and Silent Spell, and you can't take the nonexistent spellbook away. Powers also do not have Arcane Spell Failure, meaning you can wear armor without any casting penalties. However, powers tend to be weaker than spells overall (with a few notable exceptions), you don't get a lot of effects that magic can provide (but you can get a few that magic doesn't get), you have a limited number of powers known (similar to a sorcerer or bard), you don't get auto-scaling on your powers, and metapsionics is much more limited (but overall, more user-friendly) than metamagic. Psionics overall excels at [mind-affecting] powers, action economy manipulation, and blasting (without optimization; with optimization, arcanists blow them away). They don't get necromancy or illusion, and they're not that great at buffing party members or battlefield control. You can overcome some of this through op-fu, but it takes quite a lot of mental hoops to jump through to make some of it work.

[navar100]

The absolute most important rule you and everyone at the table must understand and follow is that you can never, ever spend more than your manifester level in power points for any one power. This includes power points used for augmentation and/or metapsionic feats. The Overchannel feat temporarily boosts your manifester level for the purpose of manifesting a power to spend more powerpoints, but the rule still stands - you cannot spend more than your manifester level in power points on any one power.

[MrRigger]

Thank you all for the speedy replies. I really appreciate it.


Player 2 is going to summon stuff. A lot. The summons, LIKE ALL SUMMONS, are going to be very powerful. You say you've done magic a lot, so you should already understand what happens when, say, the druid decides to bury things under a mountain of angry bear flesh. Don't freak out about this. By the way, these summons are not affected by mind-affecting powers. A number of buffs are mind-affecting.

That's okay. I'm planning on a lot of the encounters involving numerous lower level enemies, instead of one big beatstick, so drowning them in ectoplasmic fury will probably help with crowd control.


1) The full transparency rule is here; all it means in a nutshell is that you should treat psionics and magic as the same thing when it comes to detecting, dispelling, negating or resisting them. Detect Magic can detect powers, Dispel Psionics can dispel spells, Spell Resistane works against powers etc.

It also means that items treat them the same; for example an Orange Ioun Stone will increase a wizard's caster level or a psion's manifester level equally.

Good to know. That's what I figured, but I wanted to make sure.


2) You seem to have the core point down regarding PP and ML; the Rules Summary post in my sig (by Peregrine) should get you up to speed on other stuff.

Thanks. I'll show it to my players as well, to make sure they know the basics.


3) Your 3rd player is most likely going for Slayer. Nothing to worry about there, just don't be surprised if he brings it up.


I hadn't looked at the Slayer yet, and I don't think he has either (he's the worst in the group when it comes to planning ahead), but I will keep it in mind. Thanks.


As long as you know that rule, you should be okay. Psions are powerful, but they're less powerful than, say, a Wizard or Druid; just make sure you know which powers they have, so you aren't too surprised at the tricks the player pulls out. Shapers are pretty powerful, but if he's taking Ectopic Form, he has no idea how to play to their real strengths, so you should be fine. The Psychic Warrior, you should have no trouble with- hell, at that level, he might be kind of weak if the player picks the wrong powers. They don't get much PP, so at lower levels they'll run out pretty quickly if you don't use powers with long durations.


What are the real strengths of Astral Construct, if you don't mind expanding? And yeah, I'm not hugely concerned with the Psychic Warrior. As previously mentioned, he's not one for planning ahead too much, and has generally been the weakest player in the group (as opposed to me, who has been known to bring Persist Archivist/Dweomerkeepers to the table).


I will say be wary of the Psion trying to create a metric ton of poisons. This is also found with any caster that eventually gets Minor/Major Creation, but a Shaper gets Minor Creation at level 1... So just be wary of it if he tries to pull this stunt.

I don't expect that he will, but I'll keep an eye on it. He's not really one for in-depth readings of the rules, unfortunately. Seeing him play a 20 INT character will be interesting.


I would mention that the other big thing to be aware of is the psionic focus, how it works and what it does. You need to expend a psionic focus to use metapsionic feats (and expending a focus powers only one) and to make use of some combat feats, like Psionic Weapon. Most of the time, a character will spend a full-round action to become psionically focused, but can reduce that to a move action with the Psionic Meditation feat. The rules for doing so are in the Concentration skill destription in the Expanded Psionic Handbook. (or here)

I do know that the Shaper has taken Psionic Meditation as one of his starting feats, but I don't know about the Psychic Warrior.


The biggest thing to be aware of with Ranger1/Psychic Warrior3 are (at low level) Expansion, which functions like Enlarge Person for themselves and can be given a larger version at 7th PsyWar level, and Psionic Lion's Charge, which allows a full attack after moving. (Hustle is similar.)

I had actually recommended Expansion to him, and he seemed to like it, especially since he seems determined to make Two Weapon Fighting work for him, but I digress. Considering I've made use of the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian on more than one occasion, I don't have any problem with him Pouncing around the battlefield. I hadn't known about it or Hustle, but I will keep them in mind.

Thank you all for your help.

[Rubik]

What are the real strengths of Astral Construct, if you don't mind expanding?Astral constructs are immune to almost everything stat-wise but direct damage. They can be hit with things like Web and Solid Fog, but they can't be stunned or poisoned or level drained or ability damaged. This makes them very useful for dealing with dangerous situations that nobody else in the group would want to touch. Fighting fleshraker dinosaurs and ghouls and wights and ropers is cake with a construct, especially when you give them reach. They're highly disposable, as well, so you can send one plummeting down into the water to fight that aboleth that's giving you trouble without worrying about losing anything valuable. They get good size, Strength, and reach later, meaning they work nicely as grapplers and stopgaps for choke points. They can also do battlefield maneuvers well, such as trips and bull rushes. They're nicely customizable, which is improved considerably if you take the Boost Construct feat (and far more so if you take levels in Constructor). Also, the only movement mode they don't get is burrowing -- though they're not particularly fast regardless, honestly.

They're not so good with things that require AoE attacks, such as swarms, and unless you give them a magical weapon, they're not good with incorporeal foes until you can give them the Concussion Blast power. They don't get much casting on their own, so they can't heal the group like a celestial unicorn from the Summon Nature's Ally IV list, though they do give you some nice action economy boosts.

[Lateral]

What are the real strengths of Astral Construct, if you don't mind expanding?

Well, they aren't like Summon Monster, where at higher levels most of their strength comes out of SLAs- astral constructs don't really get those. However, they can be very good for combat, and their real strength really lies in how versatile they are- every time you create one, you can pick different abilities, so you can kind of shape them to your liking. The problem with Ectopic Form is that it's pretty much almost always better to just create your astral construct normally- Boost Construct doesn't apply to them, so with those feats, you're spending a feat to be able to create a certain kind of astral construct with less abilities and less versatility than a standard one. The only one I'd ever recommend using is Emerald Gyre, and even then only at really low levels.

Instead, effective Astral Constructs attempt to get access to more menu abilities at once. The basic Astral Constructs only get one of their highest menu level that can be split into lower menu levels; with the feat Boost Construct, your Astral Constructs gain another of their highest menu level, which improves their power and versatility in combat immensely. The Constructor prestige class gives you even more menu abilities, which of course is always better.

The other nice thing is that, since you're focusing on what's technically a 1st level power, lost levels of psion are okay as long as you can make up the ML. There's a feat in Complete Psionics called Practiced Manifester that gives you +4 ML, up to a limit of your character level; basically, it lets you take up to 4 levels in classes that don't advance your psion manifesting and still have your highest-level Astral Constructs. You can also use ML-boosters like Overchannel or those orange ioun stones to be able to make astral constructs of a higher level than normal; for example, a 14th level psion would normally only be able to make 7th level astral constructs, but if they have an orange ioun stone and use Overchannel to increase their ML by two, they would have ML 17, enough to spend 17 PP to create a 9th level astral construct.

Finally, there's one real advantage that Astral Constructs have over summoned monsters, and that is how easily you can reduce the casting time. In particular, there are three main ways:

Take 10 levels of the aforementioned Constructor prestige class. The class's capstone allows you to cast it as if it were Quickened, but for free, as long as you expend your psionic focus. Remember, normally you can't apply Quicken Spell/Power to Astral Construct since it takes a full round to cast. This is probably the weakest way, as it won't come online until at least 15th level, and because taking that tenth level requires you to give up another manifester level, but it is an option.
Take the Personal Construct ACF, from this web article. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) This comes online much sooner than the 10th Constructor level, and only requires you to give up your 5th level Psion bonus feat; the disadvantage of that, though, is that you can only quicken a specific form of Astral Construct, with abilities that you've decided upon beforehand, known as your Personal Construct. This is my favorite way, since it lets you get out some powerful Astral Constructs quickly, and since if you need a different set of abilities you can still create one normally.
Use the Linked Power metamagic, from Complete Psionic. This one is the cheesiest by far, and is the only one that I probably wouldn't allow in a game, but it's very powerful. Basically, you can cast a spell with a lower casting time than Astral Construct, let's say Empty Mind (immediate action, about the best you can get), with Astral Construct for... however much PP you want linked to it. It only takes that immediate action, but at the beginning of your next turn, that linked power takes effect, and you get an Astral Construct without having to spend a round casting it. You still have to pay all of the PP for it, of course, and you're still limited to ML, so because of the PP cost of that 1st level spell, you can't create the strongest possible Astral Construct, but ML boosters will make up for that. This one is quite powerful, so I'd be careful if you want to allow your player to do this.


As for what they're good against and what they aren't? Well... Rubik's pretty much covered that. As constructs, they have a lot of immunities, and the menu abilities make them very versatile in combat, but they won't help you with extra casting like Summon Monster can.

[Rubik]

One additional benefit to having multiple psionic characters in one group is that they can use each other almost like psionic scrolls. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#manifestAnUnknownPowerFr omAnothersPowersKnown) It's a fun reason to have multiple psionic characters in one party.

[Splendor]

Also note that the 'astral construct' power was updated in the Complete Psionics so that you can only summon one astral construct at a time (which most people don't like). Complete Psionic pg 79.

As a 5th lv Ectopic Adept (prestige class) you can summon a second one at the same time but only 1/day.

[JusticeZero]

Most people "don't like" and ignore it because if that rule is applied, it is only fair that it must also be applied equally to wizards, druids, sorcerers, clerics, et al.

[Mithril Leaf]

I would require a craft check for anything serious. Poison ivy isn't particularly dangerous, and the victim just ends up with a rash (unless your hydras are especially allergic, I guess), but stuff like black lotus extract should probably require Craft (Alchemy). Pine pitch, food and ale, and various simple tools should be fine, however, though you may want a basic craft check to determine the quality of the goods produced, when it matters at all.

Just want to point out some stuff here. Craft (Poisonmaking) is a thing for one, so that's what Black Lotus Extract falls under. Also, food is generally not a good idea unless you're planning on dieting or have some hyper advanced digestive track what with the limited duration and all. Drug are a good deal though, since they provide bonuses from usage. And of course, since you mentioned Pine Pitch, I have to talk about Distilled Jeffrey Pine Resin. Most likely a Craft (Alchemy) check to produce, it is exceptionally combustible and great fun for all your moderate to severe explosive needs.

[Chronos]

Y'know, it doesn't look like you're inclined to go this way, but as a DM you're well within your rights to just say "Psionics isn't allowed because I'm not very familiar with it".

[Prime32]

This is a good question. If you don't mind, might I add, how do you keep psionics from just feeling like regular magic spells with different names?Psionics is less automatic than magic, functioning more at the user's direct command than by following preset patterns and scripts. There are very few "smart" powers that can act independently of the manifester (like the magic mouth spell), but individual powers can do more things.

As an example, aura sight lets you see the colour of peoples' souls, from which you can determine their alignment. Detect evil checks for evil colours and reports back, but the caster doesn't have direct access to the information (and thus can't find good auras unless he uses another spell).


The problem with Ectopic Form is that it's pretty much almost always better to just create your astral construct normally- Boost Construct doesn't apply to them, so with those feats, you're spending a feat to be able to create a certain kind of astral construct with less abilities and less versatility than a standard one.[citation needed]

[Lateral]

[citation needed]
...On what? That was an opinion, but it's an opinion based on having played three different Psion/Shapers at different times. If you like those feats, fine, but I've always found ordinary Astral Constructs to be far superior.

[Prime32]

...On what? That was an opinion, but it's an opinion based on having played three different Psion/Shapers at different times. If you like those feats, fine, but I've always found ordinary Astral Constructs to be far superior.On "Ectopic Form disables the normal rules for astral constructs".

[Lateral]

On "Ectopic Form disables the normal rules for astral constructs".

Ectopic Form refers to the preconstructed constructs on Complete Psionics pgs. 121-127, which don't have any menu abilities. Boost Construct doesn't work because it gives you an extra one of its highest menu slot, but the Ectopic Forms don't have any menu slots at all- the only one that's debatable is Emerald Gyre, because it gets an ability that is explicitly off of the Menu B list (Improved Grab), so Boost Construct might give you another off that list.

[Prime32]

Ectopic Form refers to the preconstructed constructs on Complete Psionics pgs. 121-127, which don't have any menu abilities.CP gives full stat blocks for standard astral constructs which lack menu abilities, and states in the intro that you add them afterwards.

Ectopic Forms get reduced stat blocks (similar to spell chains) stating "only the characteristics that are different from, or in addition to, those of a standard astral construct".

[Keld Denar]

BTW, in case nobody's mentioned it yet..."YOU CAN'T SPENT MORE PP ON A POWER THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS!!!!11!!!!ONE!!!ELEVEN!!!"

Thank you.

[Rubik]

BTW, in case nobody's mentioned it yet..."YOU CAN'T SPENT MORE PP ON A POWER THAN YOU HAVE MANIFESTER LEVELS!!!!11!!!!ONE!!!ELEVEN!!!"

Thank you.Unless I'm mistaken, that's been brought up several times -- including the O.P.

[erikun]

I have always treated Ectopic Forms as abilities gained in addition to that the Astral Control would normally have. Doing otherwise means taking a feat to make your power worse. If you're the DM, I would recommend doing the same - your player will likely be upset if they discover that they have literally a worthless feat once they begin play.

[MrRigger]

I have always treated Ectopic Forms as abilities gained in addition to that the Astral Control would normally have. Doing otherwise means taking a feat to make your power worse. If you're the DM, I would recommend doing the same - your player will likely be upset if they discover that they have literally a worthless feat once they begin play.


I've pointed my Shaper player at the Constructor PrC, so he may end up changing his feats to qualify for it, but if he does pick up Ectopic Form, I'll probably treat it like this. Feats should not make your character worse.

MrRigger

[Telok]

Three things I do with psionics (and I'm the one who bought the XPH for our group) are flat out ban Linked Power, limit the minor creation = gallons of contact poison thing, and treat psi-crystals as familiars.

The linked power ban has almost no effect except to cut off high level action economy abuses. It supposedly does have some legitimate uses in the middle levels, but I've never seen them. All I've seen it do is sit on the character sheet unused until a boss fight when the psion pulls out the action economy abuse, novas his whole daily PP pool by taking ten rounds in a row, and solos the boss on his first turn.

In my opinion the minor creation thing is an issue with rules lawyering. The power was meant to be used to create wood and cloth stuff, with fancy bits or moving parts requiring a craft check. It is argued that the power does not say you can't turn black lotus sap into a deadly poison with a craft check. I, personally, equate this to producing a fine mist of pure alcohol with a craft check by claiming that it's "just corn." In my opinion the chemical changes that occur during the transition from plant juice to deadly poison change it into a manufactured non-vegetable chemical product which is beyond the scope of the power and beyond the "complex item" craft check. Mostly this prevents shaper psions from dumping fifty, DC 20, 3d6 Con damage, poison saves on people for the cost of a single power point.

Psicrystals get feats, familiars don't. This can lead to problems and really weird questions like what happens when a psicrystal takes Open Minded, Improved Toughness, Wild Talent, Craft Djorie, and Illithid Heritage? It can get seriously silly, until they take Mindsight which can get annoying. Psicrystals getting feats can cause problems.

All that said, if your players are going for astral constructs and psychic warriors you probably won't have any problems. The ACs are good beat sticks and psychic warriors are gish-in-a-can. Neither one is a problem power.

[Vaz]

Just want to point out some stuff here. Craft (Poisonmaking) is a thing for one, so that's what Black Lotus Extract falls under. Also, food is generally not a good idea unless you're planning on dieting or have some hyper advanced digestive track what with the limited duration and all. Drug are a good deal though, since they provide bonuses from usage. And of course, since you mentioned Pine Pitch, I have to talk about Distilled Jeffrey Pine Resin. Most likely a Craft (Alchemy) check to produce, it is exceptionally combustible and great fun for all your moderate to severe explosive needs.

I love the power. It is like mini-wish. 'I need to climb this wall but i'm too weak. However my rogue has ranks in climb: here's some rope i pulled from midair.'

The literal (plantbased) magicians hat.

[Keld Denar]

Unless I'm mistaken, that's been brought up several times -- including the O.P.

I know. I saw it. Thats the reason for all of the exclamation marks. All of them...

[fishyfishyfishy]

That is essentially all they are. Personally, I just emphasize the fluff; Wizards make glyphs and circles and study strange books and incantations, Psions rub crystals, meditate and fast a lot, Clerics rave in temples and moralize a lot while discussing theology and rubbing holy symbols and pondering "What would Apollo do?", and Druids prance around naked in the woods talking to mice and nibbling on bits of shrubbery. Beyond that, at the core, they're just tossing off magic spells.

I laughed uncontrollably for a minute or so. Can I sig this?

[JusticeZero]

Go for it. :)

[Urpriest]

Linked Power is quite nice for a Psychic Warrior's buff routine. I wouldn't ban it out of hand, though I'd probably limit it to powers with a standard action casting or less.

In terms of the whole "gallons of poison" thing, the problem is easily fixed by noticing that the rules say that touching a poisoned object triggers a single save for a single instance of damage. Being doused in black lotus extract shouldn't make you any more poisoned than encountering it once, and it should in any case require an appropriate craft check. Besides, it's range 0ft, so without some tricks it's going to affect the caster anyway, and since

A creature or object brought into being cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
you can't put it in an enemy's space or in midair anyway.

So it's a nice downtime trick, which makes a character who actually knows how to do poisoning more effective. But it's not a combat trick.

[Vaz]

Also houserule that powers linked into it don't lose XP costs. I voluntaroly suggested to my DM to include that once more: reality revision/true mind switch/Greater Metamophosis are all extremely powerful abilities.

[Lateral]

So it's a nice downtime trick, which makes a character who actually knows how to do poisoning more effective. But it's not a combat trick.
Well, of course. Psionic Minor Creation has a casting time of 1 minute. (Though I suppose you could bypass that with Linked Power, but that's more about the shenanigans available with that feat.)

[erikun]

I've pointed my Shaper player at the Constructor PrC, so he may end up changing his feats to qualify for it, but if he does pick up Ectopic Form, I'll probably treat it like this. Feats should not make your character worse.

MrRigger
You might want to give it a different capstone as well, as the "can have two Astral Constructs out at once" doesn't make any sense if you aren't using that silly limit to begin with.

[HunterOfJello]

You need to go read the psion class description, the entire Psionics section of the Expanded Psionic handbook and the descriptions of each of the powers that the player is using. Unless you're familiarized with all of that, you won't know whether the player is working within the rules properly or not.

The same thing applies to Tome of Battle. It's easy for misunderstandings and ridiculousness to pop up because people simply didn't sit down and read the thing through properly.

Also, remember that Ectopic Form can only be applied once per creature.

[Terazul]

You might want to give it a different capstone as well, as the "can have two Astral Constructs out at once" doesn't make any sense if you aren't using that silly limit to begin with.

:smallconfused: The capstone for Constructor is "can expend focus to manfiest Astral Construct as though it were quickened." The two constructs thing you might be thinking of is the Augment gained at 9th level: If they spend 2 additional PP, another construct of the same level is created. Which is delicious. So yes, don't play with the CPsi nerfs.

[Psyren]

:smallconfused: The capstone for Constructor is "can expend focus to manfiest Astral Construct as though it were quickened." The two constructs thing you might be thinking of is the Augment gained at 9th level: If they spend 2 additional PP, another construct of the same level is created. Which is delicious. So yes, don't play with the CPsi nerfs.

It sounds like he mistook Constructor for Ectopic Adept there.

[Pickford]

Three things I do with psionics (and I'm the one who bought the XPH for our group) are flat out ban Linked Power, limit the minor creation = gallons of contact poison thing, and treat psi-crystals as familiars.

The linked power ban has almost no effect except to cut off high level action economy abuses. It supposedly does have some legitimate uses in the middle levels, but I've never seen them. All I've seen it do is sit on the character sheet unused until a boss fight when the psion pulls out the action economy abuse, novas his whole daily PP pool by taking ten rounds in a row, and solos the boss on his first turn.

How does a player take more than the single action it grants? (Which they must pay for immediately, burns their focus and occurs 'next' round)

[Rubik]

How does a player take more than the single action it grants? (Which they must pay for immediately, burns their focus and occurs 'next' round)Well, a Twinned, Linked Synchronicity/Synchronicity combo would allow you two actions this round and two next round. Combined with a Quickened, Linked Synchronicity/Synchronicity, that's three this round and next. And any of those standard actions could be an additional Twinned, Linked Synchronicity/Synchronicity combo.

Or for better pp economy, a simple Linked Synchronicity/Synchronicity combo (costing 2 pp) would give you a standard this round and one the next. Use this round's additional standard to do the same thing. So long as you have ways of renewing your focus (and there are a few), you could get a handful of standard actions next round.

[Segev]

How does a player take more than the single action it grants? (Which they must pay for immediately, burns their focus and occurs 'next' round)

By linking it with Synchronicity. This power allows you to ready an action without specifying the trigger, or, augmented, to ready an action without specifying either the trigger OR the action until you take it. Linking Synchronicity to any power buys you a second standard action in the following round, since you didn't have to spend an action on activating it by itself.

Linking Synchronicity to Synchronicity can actually start producing extra actions. You just specify that your readied action for one of them is to manifest Linked Synchronicity again, while the second is whatever you actually want to do.

Round 1: Manifest Synchronicity-Linked Synchronicity, readying your first Synch's action to be whatever you want it to be and triggering it when you feel like it. You've effectively lost no actions, spending 1 standard on round 1.

Round 2: Last round's Linked Synchronicity goes off, giving you your normal standard action and a readied standard action. Spend one of them manifesting Synch-Linked Synch; this gives you a new readied standard action and leaves you with one more standard action. You spend 2 standard actions on round 2.

Round 3: Repeat as above - you now have 2 Standard actions each round, as long as you can afford to spend 2 pp on Synch-Linked Synch (and your moves on regaining Psi Focus).

With Psicrystal Containment, you can manage to eke out just a little bit more.

Round 1 looks the same.

Round 2: Expend both psi foci to use both currently-available standard actions to manifest Synch-Linked Synchronicities. Take two standard actions "readied" from this round's Synchronicities.

Round 3: Two more Synchronicities go off, and you have your own standard. This round, you have 3 standard actions!

There are further tricks for getting psi foci back more readily, but even here, you can see that in 3 rounds you've taken 6 "real" actions.

[lsfreak]

Aren't those primarily problems with Synchronicity though, not with Linked Power? Synchronicity has few if any non-cheesy uses, while Linked Power is decent as-is without resorting to Synchronicity abuse, like for psywarrior buffing as Urpriest already mentioned.

[Segev]

Indeed, it is. But you asked what the problem was, so...

Anyway, Synchronicity is FINE used as-intended. It's a 1 pp solution to the "can't predict the enemy" problem of readied actions, or a 4 pp option to make your standard action an immediate one later on, and do anything you want to anybody you want as an interrupt.

[Psyren]

Indeed, Linked Power and Synchronicity are both perfectly fine on their own. (Well, LP could use some clarification as far as the cast time of the companion power, but aside from that.) It's only combined that they start to cause real trouble. Same goes for Synchronicity and Quicken, or Synchronicity and Twin. So ultimately, I just disallow Synchronicity with any metapsionic feat and it solves most if not all of the issues.

[Roguenewb]

I played a wilder with synchronicity for years, and its a great power, even used legitimately. I had a wildly pumped charisma (Draconic, Magic-blooded, Lesser Aasimar don't you know), and I combined with wild surge, I had more power points than I knew what to do with. One of my common turns was Quickened Augmented Synchronicty. Refocus, Augmented Synchronicity. At some point, I take two standard actions. Combined with Anticipatory Strike and schism, I could get some serious action economy advantages, but it cost like all the power points. Since I used these things mainly to blasting and SoDs, and I wasn't too much of a problem for over all game balance.

Generally, I just prevented things from getting out of hand. "Oh my god, the evil wizard is casting his death laser!", Energy ray wild surge +4 anarchic surge, make a Concentration check, DC many, "I counterspelled guys". "Glad the wizard wasted his turn, but oh no, the dark knight charged you! Vigor Wildsurge +4, anarchic surge, absorb the whole hit in temp HP". That sort of thing. The most abusive thing was taking EK a lot of times, and making liberal use of psychic reformation to repick powers and targets for EK. Made me *very* flexible.

Tl;dr most psionics things are very fair. There are a handful of notable exceptions, almost all based on some combination of Linked Power and Synchronicity. I wouldn't bane anything ahead of time, you should be fine with a little watching of what starts to happen.