Which historical figure would fight for you? (Fate Stay Night inspired)

[Finn Solomon]

I've recently gotten in FSN and while the anime is cool, I like the concept surrounding it much better. Summoning famous figures from history to battle in a magical contest for you, in hopes of winning an amazing prize. Sign me up!

So the deal is that the older and more mythical your Servant is, the more powerful as humanity has had more time to create stories based on his or her legend. Personally, I'd go for Abraham Lincoln. Yes his story is less than two hundred years old, but it's powerful and in my opinion there hasn't been another guy whose story has become myth so fast. Fallout 3 is a good example of how Lincoln's story will last the ages. Plus there's just something fantastic about imagining bishounen Abe Lincoln, possibly with a vampire-slaying axe or rail-splitting hammer, fighting magical demons and wizards and whatnot.

So who would your summoned Servant be? Be creative!

[ThePhantom]

Oh, why not a man who was famous in a time when Fame was much harder to get, a man of many trades and a master of most of them. Benjamin Franklin, a man who was still fairly fit even in his old age. Besides, there would be no one else who could rival his mastery of lightning.

[Lateral]

Gilgamesh. You really kind of can't get any older or mythical than that, unless gods count. (I suppose that even if gods don't count, Osiris and Isis may or may not qualify, but I'd still prefer Gilgamesh.)

Also, probably Leonardo da Vinci, because that dude is AWESOME. Maybe Aristotle too.

[Finn Solomon]

I don't know if you've seen the anime, but Gilgamesh is a character in it and yes, he's the most powerful guy by virtue of being one of the oldest legends in human history. Although I'd argue that someone like Prince Arjuna from the Mahabharata is actually older.

[MLai]

While I would personally prefer Artoria (Saber), since it's my life on the line I'll probably go for mythical Buddha.

In contrast to how Westerners conceive of Buddha, Eastern popular folklore sees Buddha as the founder of Shaolin kung fu (i.e. mythical root of all Chinese kung fu), master of all manners of mystical chi powers and demon-slaying holy magic, and general all-around superman with WIS 21. He pinned the Monkey King (Son Goku/ Sun Wukong) with his pinkie.

Basically Kung-Fu Jesus is not just a funny TV Trope in Asia.

[nyarlathotep]

Plus there's just something fantastic about imagining bishounen Abe Lincoln, possibly with a vampire-slaying axe or rail-splitting hammer, fighting magical demons and wizards and whatnot.


Shouldn't he be powerfully built but grandfatherly if they're powered by their legend and persona in the popular consciousness?

If fictional heros whose impact on society was great are allowed I'd have to go with Don Quixote, a man whose ideals and impact were strong enough to persist in a world literally designed by someone seeking to disprove those ideals.

If not probably Cincinnatus.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Yeah...Gilgamesh is basically the OP-est of them all. Especially when you consider what he was up to before FSN.

Part of me would love to summon Tesla, because cmon. Though his myth's probably not mega-strong.

Maybe I'd find a way to summon Kamina. :P

[MLai]

You guys are summoning random people without regard to your personal wellbeing. If I was in the Grail War you'd be the first Master I would target.

You have to remember that the person that comes out, will be what the general public accepts as the "real person" in an idealized form.
A dead president? The Lincoln you get is going to be a kind old man who had the weight of the Civil War on his shoulders, not a superhero. Kamina? Most ppl don't even know who that is, and those who do will not think he's ever real.

[ThePhantom]

Um, that's not how it works. If it was, then Saber would have been a man, cause that's how people think who Arthur was.

[Callos_DeTerran]

....I know nothing about FSN, but I choose Genghis Khan as the figure to fight for me, because the legends and myths have turned a competent, vengeful Mongolian warlord capable of uniting warring Mongol tribes and conquering the second largest empire in history into the Scourge of God. Everyone knows who Genghis Khan is and what he's done (except that one country and culture he obliterated entirely) but all I know about Gilgamesh is his name and I'm a fairly well read person.

I want the man who's myth coined Conan's most memorable movie line as my Servant, you can keep your diddly presidents or anime heroes!

...Except Carpe, cause he choose Tesla. He will be offered alliance. And the one who choose Don Quixote...he has class.

[thubby]

the trick is figuring out someone who is strong, but also someone who would accept orders. gilgamesh is a king and part god, he doesnt listen to anyone.

vlad tepes would certainly be effective. but the question is what the devil would he be?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Um, that's not how it works. If it was, then Saber would have been a man, cause that's how people think who Arthur was.
It's...complicated. I remember reading the reasoning behind it. It made sense in its own sort of way.

I think I'll stand by Tesla for now. Y'know, the legend of the mad scientist genius dude. :smallbiggrin:

[ThePhantom]

the trick is figuring out someone who is strong, but also someone who would accept orders. gilgamesh is a king and part god, he doesnt listen to anyone.

vlad tepes would certainly be effective. but the question is what the devil would he be?

Lancer, he is in a series. No he is not a vampire, but he can be like one. And yes, he is very powerful.

[Finn Solomon]

Lancer, he is in a series. No he is not a vampire, but he can be like one. And yes, he is very powerful.

I thought Lancer was Cu Chulainn, of Irish myth? Or is this a different series?

[Magatsu Izanagi]

On the topic of Presidents of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt, Ulysses S. Grant, and George Washington would be obvious choices, either as Sabers or as Riders. Thomas Jefferson and Franklin Roosevelt could be excellent Casters. Andrew Jackson as a Berserker would be hilarious. Dunno what their respective Noble Phantasms would be, though.

Also, Nikola Tesla is for small-timers. Archimedes is where it's at. :smalltongue: Alternately, would it be possible to summon Oppenheimer, Fermi, von Neumann, Teller, Ulam, Szilard, and all the other scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project and use them as a collective like the Hassan-i-Sabbah?

[ThePhantom]

I thought Lancer was Cu Chulainn, of Irish myth? Or is this a different series?

Different series, the Grail got stolen by a wizard a few centuries back and bought to transivania. There the wizard set up a new contest, with 2 teams of masters and servants. The wizard is still alive when the series begins and Vlad is his servant.

Also, Shakespeare is the caster for the other team.

[Finn Solomon]

On the topic of Presidents of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt, Ulysses S. Grant, and George Washington would be obvious choices, either as Sabers or as Riders. Thomas Jefferson and Franklin Roosevelt could be excellent Casters. Andrew Jackson as a Berserker would be hilarious. Dunno what their respective Noble Phantasms would be, though.

Also, Nikola Tesla is for small-timers. Archimedes is where it's at. :smalltongue: Alternately, would it be possible to summon Oppenheimer, Fermi, von Neumann, Teller, Ulam, Szilard, and all the other scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project and use them as a collective like the Hassan-i-Sabbah?

A Manhattan Project group would be BROKEN. I could envision them as the villains that everyone else has to stop, because you know if they won everyone else dies.

On the subject of Noble Phantasms (something like a pro wrestler's trademark finisher, except with special effects), it'd be fun to make a list.

TR: The Rough Rider. An unstoppable charge, bonus if it takes place up a hill.
USG: Unconditional Surrender Grant. Something that would force a beaten opponent to give up utterly, even if it's not in his nature.
G-Dub: Father of the Country. An inspirational boost to keep allies fighting when all hope is lost.
Jefferson: Based on his sublime writing ability, maybe something that would enable him to write out anything, particularly vital information.
FDR: Manipulation magic is where it's at, no one could bend an enormous group of warring tribes to his will better than Franklin.
Andrew Jackson: Perfect choice for a Berserker. I can see him going toe-to-toe with Heracles in the original anime and winning.

[Gettles]

I thought Lancer was Cu Chulainn, of Irish myth? Or is this a different series?

There is a PSP game based off of Fate where Vlad was the Lancer.

Anyway, I'm going with non-Berserker Hercules. Seriously, loosing all his special abilities and intelligence for a physical stat boost is the dumbest idea ever.

[MLai]

Um, that's not how it works. If it was, then Saber would have been a man, cause that's how people think who Arthur was.
Ok yeah that's complicated in-universe. But I would say since Saber being female or male had no bearing on her martial prowess or the substance of her legend (in-universe), that's why the Throne of Heroes didn't care and so spat her out as a female and surprised the heck out of all the other Magi characters (or at least they should have been surprised).

Out-universe, this is a harem story.

I think I'll stand by Tesla for now. Y'know, the legend of the mad scientist genius dude. :smallbiggrin:
Have to admit that having a mad scientist as a Caster is deliciously refreshing. Problem is, mad scientists are always hero fodder, so you're not being very genre-savvy choosing one as your champion.

I thought Lancer was Cu Chulainn, of Irish myth? Or is this a different series?
The Grail War universe has expanded since the original FSN story. There are light novels and different games detailing other Grail Wars (some non-canon). Vlad Tepes is in a video game's Grail War.
BTW, after FSN you should watch the Fate Zero anime next.

Alternately, would it be possible to summon Oppenheimer, Fermi, von Neumann, Teller, Ulam, Szilard, and all the other scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project and use them as a collective like the Hassan-i-Sabbah?
LOL good luck finding 100 ppl in the whole city who know who the heck all those ppl are.

[Lateral]

I thought Lancer was Cu Chulainn, of Irish myth? Or is this a different series?
Ooh, I forgot about Cú Chulainn. I suppose you could also do Fionn mac Cumhaill, but he's from later myths so he's probably less powerful.

[Finn Solomon]

Ooh, I forgot about Cú Chulainn. I suppose you could also do Fionn mac Cumhaill, but he's from later myths so he's probably less powerful.

Yeah he's badass. Besides being the quintessential Fighting Irish, his trademark move's basically a one-hit kill.

[Hida Reju]

LOL good luck finding 100 ppl in the whole city who know who the heck all those ppl are.

I will point out that Archer in FSN was a hero that had not become famous yet.

100 years from now Tesla or the guys that made the Atom bomb might be that famous in legend.

I have become Shiva destroyer of worlds. Yeah quotes like that could make for a tragic hero/caster.

[aberratio ictus]

Don Quixote is a surprisingly good answer.

Personally, I'd have to go with Charlemagne, though.

[Lateral]

Yeah he's badass. Besides being the quintessential Fighting Irish, his trademark move's basically a one-hit kill.
...On the show, right? I don't think that's exactly how the ríastrad works.

[Finn Solomon]

...On the show, right? I don't think that's exactly how the ríastrad works.

It's called the Gae Bolg, which I think is a reference to his legendary spear.

[Magatsu Izanagi]

LOL good luck finding 100 ppl in the whole city who know who the heck all those ppl are.
I could say the same for a few of the canon Servants. Diarmuid Ua Duibhne is the first to come to mind.

[Thanqol]

Timur, the Lord of Iron. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur)

My favourite historical figure by a long shot. If I could have my pick of badasses it'd be Timur.

[thubby]

Timur, the Lord of Iron. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur)

My favourite historical figure by a long shot. If I could have my pick of badasses it'd be Timur.

unless he's wildly more well known in the east, his legend wouldn't be terrifically strong.

just had a thought, ghengis khan would be an absolute monster. controller of the world's largest empire.

[Thanqol]

unless he's wildly more well known in the east, his legend wouldn't be terrifically strong.

just had a thought, ghengis khan would be an absolute monster.

Don't care. If the Fate series has taught me anything it's that if you're focused on winning at all costs your story will be terrible, depressing, and probably end in failure.

So go with your heart instead!


[Also: Julius Caesar]

[MLai]

I will point out that Archer in FSN was a hero that had not become famous yet.
FSN Archer was a very very weak hero, in life and after death, even though he was summoned with a meaningful item of sentimental attachment, and is (in a way) intimately attached to the magically-talented summoner, giving him an existential boost.
The only reason he seemed to be so badass was entirely plot armor. Your obscure champion will not sport such plot armor.

I have become Shiva destroyer of worlds. Yeah quotes like that could make for a tragic hero/caster.
Yeah the problem with that is it's the bomb that is famous, not the people behind it.
I can't think of any other examples of summoned heroes where the person absolutely doesn't matter, and only the weapon matters and just needs some hand to wield it.
If you can offer another such example in the games/books/animes, I'll concede the scientists. Though they still won't help you win, unless your idea of winning includes being disintegrated.

I could say the same for a few of the canon Servants. Diarmuid Ua Duibhne is the first to come to mind.
Diarmuid is famous enough, if you're Irish. Celts were once predominant in Europe, and their myths became the roots of much of Europe's cultural consciousness (you could argue). Therefore he derives power from that.

However barring plot armor or extreme power/fame differential, the most important factors are still the Magi's own abilities, his intelligence and strategies, and how well he coordinates with his Servant.

[Maethirion]

I think for me it'd have to be someone from the Trojan War.
Achilles or Hector would be the obvious choices, but I'm more tempted to go with Diomedes. As well as being slightly less well known, which could actually be an advantage, there aren't many people out there who can claim to have wounded two gods in one battle.

[Kitten Champion]

After much thought, I'm picking the pirate queen of Ireland, Grace O'Malley. As she pretty much kicks ass even before elaboration.

I suppose she'd be an archer.

[thubby]

i would think pirates would tend toward rider, since they're so often associated with their ships.

[SuperPanda]

I feel that I tend toward the Arthurian legend and so characters with a similar mythos would be attracted to me so I'll choose characters from a pool such as this.

I tend towards diplomacy and I look after my friends when they need me, even at detriment to myself. What I'd need in a servant is either a fiercely loyal body-guard or a deathly intelligent stratagist to aid me in those efforts. I've a love for Chinese mythology and that leads me to my choice.


Zhuge Liang.

[Magatsu Izanagi]

i would think pirates would tend toward rider, since they're so often associated with their ships.
Keeping with the maritime theme: Horatio Nelson, Heihachiro Togo, Jackie Fisher, Isoroku Yamamoto, Chester Nimitz, Hyman Rickover.

Slightly more traditional candidates for a Rider: George Patton, Erwin Rommel, Bernard Montgomery, Georgi Zhukov. (Come to think of it, Patton could also be summoned as a Saber-class Servant...)

Truly insane ideas for a Rider: Manfred von Richtofen, Eddie Rickenbacker, Billy Bishop, Erich Hartmann, Robin Olds.

[kpenguin]

Timur, the Lord of Iron. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur)

My favourite historical figure by a long shot. If I could have my pick of badasses it'd be Timur.

I dunno. That guy's pretty lame. Get it?

[Elder Tsofu]

Hm, if I was forced into the death-match called the Holy Grail war I'd probably try to summon the Red Baron - and possibly into the Rider or Archer class. He is probably one of the more well-know "modern" legends, and having a flying-ace on your side would be cool (although I'd totally expect to somehow be matched up against a berserker King Kong).

[MLai]

II tend towards diplomacy and I look after my friends when they need me, even at detriment to myself. What I'd need in a servant is either a fiercely loyal body-guard or a deathly intelligent stratagist to aid me in those efforts. I've a love for Chinese mythology and that leads me to my choice: Zhuge Liang.
Zhuge Liang is definitively historical. He is documented in historical records in detail, including birth date, death date, and exact titles and offices held.

He is famous enough to have mythical feats attributed to him (which would all become true as a Grail hero... I would say it'd make him a Caster), but his military, literary, and scientific accomplishments were real and documented ala similar ancient polymaths.

[thubby]

I have to wonder what kind of terror lancelot would have been if he were the saber instead of berserker.

can you have a servant that isn't human? mythology is rife with inhuman beasts. being able to summon legion would be fantastic

[Finn Solomon]

What about a historical figure who wasn't a warrior? Someone mentioned Shakespeare as a Caster, that's pretty cool. Imagine fighting with the Beatles on your side, with the power of ROCK. Or a Salvador Dali who could make the entire world surreal.

[MLai]

can you have a servant that isn't human? mythology is rife with inhuman beasts. being able to summon legion would be fantastic
1. The answer is (unfortunately) yes. Medusa was a summon in FSN, after all. It makes things all kinds of stupid, cuz then what's to prevent me from summoning Tiamat?? :smallconfused:
Maybe she'll even appear as a hot girl. :smallannoyed:
(who wants to learn what love is) :smallamused:

2. What the heck is a legion (beast)?

[thubby]

1. The answer is (unfortunately) yes. Medusa was a summon in FSN, after all. It makes things all kinds of stupid, cuz then what's to prevent me from summoning Tiamat?? :smallconfused:
Maybe she'll even appear as a hot girl. :smallannoyed:
(who wants to learn what love is) :smallamused:

2. What the heck is a legion (beast)?

legion is a recurring biblical demon, or group of them (hence the name). almost any piece of media that deals with a possession is drawing on elements of legion's tale. the exorcism of emily rose mentions it explicitly.

but think about that as a servant? a horde of invisible body snatching monsters :smalleek:

[Man on Fire]

I have to wonder what kind of terror lancelot would have been if he were the saber instead of berserker.


Lancelot as any other class woudl be much less scary. Remember, he's so badass because he didn't lose any of his special abilities and skills as berserker so he benefits both from them and his power boost.


2. What the heck is a legion (beast)?

Thousands of demons who posessed one man and were threw out of his body by Jesus.

Speaking of which, few choices of mine:
Muhammad ibn Abd Allah ibn Abd al-Muttalib as Caster (yes, creator of Islam)
Napoleon (world-famous, attributed magic powers) as dunno who
Erwin Rommel as Rider (with Ghost Division (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keXfiffBzFw) as a summonable Noble Phantasm)

[Forum Explorer]

Legends and myths huh?

Then I'll go with St. Michael, one of the three Archangels. :smallamused:

[SuperPanda]

Zhuge Liang is definitively historical. He is documented in historical records in detail, including birth date, death date, and exact titles and offices held.

He is famous enough to have mythical feats attributed to him (which would all become true as a Grail hero... I would say it'd make him a Caster), but his military, literary, and scientific accomplishments were real and documented ala similar ancient polymaths.

Well, I picked him because he's both historical and mythological in China, I thought it might count as a double wammie for him to be a real person who was also mythological. The Zhuge Liang of the historical warring States period was a different person than the Zhuge Liang of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. as were the people he fought with and against. Historical Liu Bei wasn't all that much nicer as a person than Historical Cao Cao, and there is a good argument to be made that in an honest history of the period Cao Cao might actually be the Hero of the story.

In the myth-ified version of the story though, Liu Bei is an Arthur figure and Zhuge Liang is his Merlin. He'd definitely be a caster, largely with weather based magics similar to Storm of the X-men but he'd probably also have some level of Telepathy as well (in one of the myth-like tellings of him he Killed opponent strategists by aggravating them until they developed ulcers and died from them. I think once such occurrence happened over the course of a single day).

Sadly though, going by the Myths / histories his "ultimate move" would either be powering up his allies (which doesn't help in a grail war without first going through a Xanatos Gambit) or pretending to surrender and making everyone else run away in fear (which he did once).

[MLai]

Sadly though, going by the Myths / histories his "ultimate move" would either be powering up his allies (which doesn't help in a grail war without first going through a Xanatos Gambit) or pretending to surrender and making everyone else run away in fear (which he did once).
ZGL is the type of Servant you'd pick if you yourself are a prominent Magus of a major house, with great personal power and plenty of human/supernatural assets at your disposal... but you're dumb as a sack of bricks and you (admirably) admit it. He'd help you win, whereas some action hero would just be another weapon in your arsenal.

(This was actually the exact fatal failing of quite a few Magi in the FZ Grail War.)

[Mx.Silver]

However barring plot armor or extreme power/fame differential, the most important factors are still the Magi's own abilities, his intelligence and strategies, and how well he coordinates with his Servant.

Gille de Rais is not the best known historical figure, and in Fate Zero his summoner had basically no magical power at all, nor was said summoner particularly good at tactics. None of this seemed to have much impact on his abilities.

Basically, actual summon power is a bit difficult to calculate. Class, for instance, also plays a role in this as do the capabilities of whatever it is you summoned. Essentially, in most cases the idea is that basically all the Spirits are at least capable of presenting a credible threat to each other. Just because you're packing a living god doesn't mean you can't get crushed by someone you've never heard of before. Also, don't be surprised if your summon ends up having a different sex and/or appearance to what you were expecting. Even if they were a real historical figure. Especially if they were a real historical figure, if Fate/Extra is any indication


Incidentally, I would probably say Zero is a better indicator of how things work overall, given what had happened to the grail war by the time Night kicked off.



It makes things all kinds of stupid, cuz then what's to prevent me from summoning Tiamat?
Tiamat's a goddess, which makes it difficult. After the Avenger incident, I don't think anyone wants to start going down that that road again.

[Man on Fire]

Tiamat's a goddess, which makes it difficult. After the Avenger incident, I don't think anyone wants to start going down that that road again.

And what was that?

[Kurgan]

Timur, the Lord of Iron. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur)

My favourite historical figure by a long shot. If I could have my pick of badasses it'd be Timur.


I dunno. That guy's pretty lame. Get it?

Well, his legacy could have been a bit tamer. A walk down memory lane [or his wikipedia page, whichever you prefer], gives some mixed ideas on him.

And wait, people aren't familiar with Timur?


Barely knowing anything about Fate Stay Night except the basics, I'd probably pick player from Three Kingdoms China. Probably Guan Yu, as he is still revered to this day, though Lu Bu could be neat just to see how long it takes him to betray me.

At this point I feel half of Lu Bu's legacy is the line "Don't Pursue Lu Bu" :smallbiggrin:

[Traab]

I think for me it'd have to be someone from the Trojan War.
Achilles or Hector would be the obvious choices, but I'm more tempted to go with Diomedes. As well as being slightly less well known, which could actually be an advantage, there aren't many people out there who can claim to have wounded two gods in one battle.


Odyseus. (Im sure I misspelled the name) If only because his legend is of an incredibly clever tactician and he is also a fairly kickass warrior iirc. You want a champ on your side who knows how to stay in it for the long haul as well. Dude spent 10 years trying to get home to his wife, fighting all sorts of mythological creatures.

[VariSami]

Easy. Gary Gygax. Since he is dead, we can classify him as history. Because of the stir his death caused, we may confirm that there are many to whom he is something of a hero. At least there seems to have been some mystification of him as a person among the crowds.

[MLai]

Easy. Gary Gygax. Since he is dead, we can classify him as history. Because of the stir his death caused, we may confirm that there are many to whom he is something of a hero. At least there seems to have been some mystification of him as a person among the crowds.
Sigh... some Magi are treating the Grail War as some big joke. :smallsigh:
Ah well, that just means more easy targets for us serious Magi. :smallwink:

And what was that?
Someone summoned Thor with disastrous consequences because the Hulk came with him.

[VariSami]

Sigh... some Magi are treating the Grail War as some big joke. :smallsigh:
Ah well, that just means more easy targets for us serious Magi. :smallwink:
I think there is reason (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html) to suppose that Mr. Gygax would be no joke (http://xkcd.com/393/).

My guess is that he would be a Caster, and while they seem to be perceived as weak, a power befitting Gygax such as randomly changing the parameters of himself or the Master could be perceived as capricious but potentially strong. Like Kite from HunterxHunter or Gamzee from Homestuck.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Also, Nikola Tesla is for small-timers. Archimedes is where it's at. :smalltongue:
HOLY MOLY.

"Give me a lever big enough and a place to stand, and I will move the Earth."

I mean--

--okay, that would be great.

Also, I love the idea of Gygax (or Arneson!) as a fourth wall-breaking Servant. "I am the Dungeon Master."

[Traab]

HOLY MOLY.

"Give me a lever big enough and a place to stand, and I will move the Earth."

I mean--

--okay, that would be great.

Also, I love the idea of Gygax (or Arneson!) as a fourth wall-breaking Servant. "I am the Dungeon Master."

His powers would be using the fundamental rules of existence to minmax and munchkin the hell out of his fights. "Well, because the air we breathe works like thus, and the earth under our feet is so and so SPHERE OF ANNIHILATION! Heh, I love it when they stop fighting to listen to me ramble, leaves them flat footed every time."

[Man on Fire]

Sigh... some Magi are treating the Grail War as some big joke.

Actually, Gygax could have an advantage, because rules of Grail War are based on D&D. He could have insight into everybody's secretly guarded stats, names and noble phantasms.

Through everybody knows Gygax would be better suited for old-school Yu-Gi-Oh! type of tornament.

[nyarlathotep]

Legends and myths huh?

Then I'll go with St. Michael, one of the three Archangels. :smallamused:

Or four, or five, or seven, or twelve.

[Frozen_Feet]

Too many choices. I think I'd roll a dice here. 1d6:


Simo Häyhä, the White Death: a man who killed upwards of 200 men in six months, under the cold and miserable conditions of Finnish winter, using only iron sights. Perhaps the most efficient sniper of all time, and definitely the most impressive in World War 2.
Gustavus Adolphus, the Lion of the North, a hero of the Protestant cause and the king who made Sweden a Great Power. Regarded as the first great modern general, or "Father of Modern Warfare".
Sun Wu, better known as Sun Tsu or Sunzi, an ancient Chinese general who wrote the Art of War, a book on military strategy still read and influential to these days.
Jesus of Nazareth, central Messiah figure of Christian faiths and alleged Son of God.
St. Michael, the archangel who kicked Satan and his lot out of heaven and who so happens to be patron saint of my home county or church.
Wyrm Ouroboros, the all-snake, first living thing, symbol of immortality and eternal life and all that jazz.

[Traab]

I always felt that Sun Wu or whatever name you want to give him, was a bit overblown. Yes he really did write that awesome collection of tactics. The problem is, EVERYONE USES THOSE TACTICS NOW! His strategies and such are basic reading material for anyone who wants to learn strategy. He was cutting edge 2500 years ago, his strategies are really really REALLY old news now.

[Frozen_Feet]

But doesn't precisely that make his myth so strong? :smallamused:

[Traab]

Eh, maybe, it just doesnt pass the fridge logic test.

[Frozen_Feet]

You just havent thought of it hard enough yet. Think of it: the servant ritual bestows on the servant all information required to function in this era. Sun Wu was brilliant enough to write a book that after 2500 years is still used to teach basics of strategy - and he will know it, and he will know enough to devise counter strategies.

[turkishproverb]

Caligula. Because fame is fame, and really, would his opponents want to touch him?

[Eldan]

Legends and myths huh?

Then I'll go with St. Michael, one of the three Archangels. :smallamused:

You know, it's probably slightly against forum rules to mention this, but... Jesus? Catholicism alone is the world's largest religion. Nevermind all other forms of Christianity. And the ton of legends.

So if this is just a question of how well known the character is and how many story he has, I don't think he can be beat.

[Traab]

You know, it's probably slightly against forum rules to mention this, but... Jesus? Catholicism alone is the world's largest religion. Nevermind all other forms of Christianity. And the ton of legends.

So if this is just a question of how well known the character is and how many story he has, I don't think he can be beat.

We know he can fight. He kicked some serious butt clearing out that temple of merchants and such. Plus, killing him just activates the God Mode.

[Frozen_Feet]

I already brought up Jesus. I only gave myself one-in-six chance of picking him, because it just wouldn't be fair to most other contestants. Though Buddha would be pretty even. (Though didn't Buddha already appear once in some Fate/Stay continuity, as a rare Saver class?)

[Tengu_temp]

Copernicus as a female Caster, for a joke nobody except Polish people get.

[Flickerdart]

Ilya Muromets, one of those "guys grossly exaggerated by legend who had a historical basis" guys. Literally the most well-known and strongest warrior of Russian folk tales, and also a saint of the Orthodox church. Granted superhuman strength by a giant, he single-handedly liberated cities, and knocked all the steeples off the churches of Kiev when the prince forgot to invite him to a party. When ambushed without his weapons, he defeated his foes using only a boot.

You'll have difficulty finding a better Saber. :smallamused:

[Mx.Silver]

I already brought up Jesus. I only gave myself one-in-six chance of picking him, because it just wouldn't be fair to most other contestants. Though Buddha would be pretty even.

Again, divinity figures tend not to be summoned, it's something of an unspoken rule at this point. The only exception to this was Avenger, who it should be noted was pretty damn difficult to summon to begin with, requiring the creation of an entirely new class of summons, 'Avenger', to fit him into. He also turned out to be not quite what his summoner(s) thought he was going to be* but still managed to basically ruin the grail wars afterwards.
Basically, this probably isn't a path you want to go down.

*something which may or may not set a rather 'interesting' precedent in regards to other divine summons, by the way.



(Though didn't Buddha already appear once in some Fate/Stay continuity, as a rare Saver class?)
AFAIK Saver didn't actually have a real-world counterpart. His appearance is influenced by a few different divinities but he's an original character.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

His powers would be using the fundamental rules of existence to minmax and munchkin the hell out of his fights. "Well, because the air we breathe works like thus, and the earth under our feet is so and so SPHERE OF ANNIHILATION! Heh, I love it when they stop fighting to listen to me ramble, leaves them flat footed every time."
Whoa.

He'd have a walking Reality Marble.

[Forum Explorer]

Thought of a few more,

Rasputin the invincible priest

Chuck Norris

Cassandrea

[Traab]

Thought of a few more,

Rasputin the invincible priest

Bruce Lee

Cassandrea


I had to fix that for you, as while chuck has those somewhat amusing, but mostly annoying sayings, bruce kicked his ass in a fight, which makes him better. Plus you got the whole legendary aspect of him fighting and killing a demon to save his sons soul. The other two would be awesome from a power perspective, but isnt one of the things to consider getting them to cooperate with you? I dont know about you, but I doubt very much I could ever trust Rasputin to work with me. I bet Bruce would though.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Rasputin would basically be like Caster from Fate Zero...but scarier.

[Finn Solomon]

Chuck's still alive too. But Bruce Lee is an awesome choice.

[Alabenson]

I'm honestly a little surprised that Miyamoto Musashi hasn't been mentioned yet. He's easily one of, if not the, most famous swordsman in Japanese history, and essentially is famous for being undefeatable.

[Flickerdart]

Rasputin wasn't invincible by any means. His assassins were just hideously inept.

[Forum Explorer]

Rasputin wasn't invincible by any means. His assassins were just hideously inept.

But that's not what the legend has become. :smallwink:

Got another one,

Blackbeard.

[thorgrim29]

Is Achille historical enough? If not, Hannibal, who would have the ability to summon war elephants in unexpected places.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Is Achille historical enough? If not, Hannibal, who would have the ability to summon war elephants in unexpected places.
Achilles was probably historical, and he's certainly got enough of a legend about him. (Gilgamesh is a canonical summon, so...)

[Hiro Protagonest]

Sun Wu Kong was the Monkey King.

Anyway, I'd totally pick Sun Tzu. I imagine his fighting style being like old masters, supremely precise and using minimal energy, but with the strength of legions in him.

[kamikasei]

Ooh, I forgot about Cú Chulainn. I suppose you could also do Fionn mac Cumhaill, but he's from later myths so he's probably less powerful.
I've played Fionn in a PbP, and he has a bunch of nifty abilities, but yes, he'd generally be weaker than Cuchulainn. (He does have that nifty "suck his thumb to see the solution to any problem" ability, which is in one of the myths he's most known from, though.)

On the other hand, if you want an Irish Lancer more powerful than Cuchulainn there's always Lugh, a demigod who gained admission to the pantheon by being the second best at absolutely everything. For even better F/SN compatibility, he wields a demonic weapon that appears to be precisely an older and more powerful instance of Fionn's.

[warty goblin]

Achilles was probably historical, and he's certainly got enough of a legend about him. (Gilgamesh is a canonical summon, so...)

The Trojan War was almost certainly a real war, or at least series of raids, towards the end of Mycenaean civilization. This is pretty well documented both in the physical archaeology and the Hittite written record. A letter in Hittite written to a Greek ruler of the period gives a name that would have been similar to Atreus, traditionally the father of Menelaus and Agamemnon. Another document gives the name of a Hittite governor of Troy as Alexandu, which would probably render as Alexandros in Greek. Alexandros being of course the alternate name for Paris. So far as I'm aware, there is no contemporary references to Achilles. The last book I read on the subject sourced Achilles to a separate folk tradition, and argued that his addition to the Epic Cycle occurred well after the Trojan War and the fall of the palaces in Greece .


Troy's name in the Hittite language, Lowian, is Wilusa. Wilusa became Wilios in Mycenaean Greek, and decayed to Illios or Illium when Greek lost the digamma after the end of the Mycenaean palace civilization. There is some linguistic evidence that the composition of much of the Iliad predates this linguistic event, and therefore falls much closer to the actual Trojan War than previously thought. Which would obviously contradict Achilles being added after the decline of Mycenaean civilization, if the poem was composed before that event.

I suspect this probably has to do with existence and length of the supposed Greek 'Dark Age' between the demise of Mycenaean civilization and the rise of early classical Greece, and therefore exactly when the Trojan War occurred. The traditional dating, based off the Egyptian Record of Kings, puts the War at circa 1250 BC, followed by the collapse of Mycenaean civilization fifty or a hundred years later, and then several hundred years of dark age. There's some real problems with the traditional dating schema and its implied dark ages however, not least it's lack of support in the archaeological record, and there's been several recent chronologies that revise the dark ages to be much shorter or not exist at all. I've seen dates for the Trojan War proposed as recently as 900 BC, if you want to take out a lot of time.

So I think declaring Achilles probably historical is being a bit optimistic, and I generally err on the side of Homer being more right than wrong when at all possible. Possibly historical certainly, and with arguably better support than other semi-mythological figures of early antiquity a la Moses. There's certainly vastly better evidence for the destruction of a Hittite city named Wilusa by Greek warriors towards the end of the bronze age, and that city's association with Troy, than there is for Exodus.

[PlusSixPelican]

Honestly? Jesus.

Whyyyy, you ask, does the pagan girl pick Jesus? For Doylian reasons, of course! If I had Jesus as my Servant, and I *lost*, there would be so many angry letters that they'd need to hit the Reset button, essentially I trick the author(s) into writing themselves into a corner where the only outcome is I win or they get hate mail, then I win~ Deliciously evil, I know. :3

Or to be more FUN, Alfred Nobel as a Caster. Why? DYNAMITE. <3 All the dynamite. Any problem I can't solve with dynamite clearly needs moar dynamite.

Other ideas:
Rodrigo Diaz as a Saber
Odin as a Rider
Batman as a Batman

[Traab]

El Mariachi from Desperado. Can you imagine it? A never ending arsenal of guns of all shapes, sizes, and calibers. Big guns, little guns, derringers, machine guns, rifles, hand guns, shot guns. His ultimate attack? He summons his two brother band mates, mister rocket launcher guitar case, and mister .50 cal machine gun guitar case, and lay waste to everything around them.

[thubby]

Honestly? Jesus.


what makes you think jesus would willingly participate in a fight to the death?

[Traab]

what makes you think jesus would willingly participate in a fight to the death?

To help stop the forces of evil from winning? Im assuming there are forces of evil, there usually are.

[kamikasei]

what makes you think jesus would willingly participate in a fight to the death?
A strong sentimental attachment to the Holy Grail. His mom hand painted the "World's Best Messiah" on there.

[Eldan]

He wants his cup back.

Also, I didn't know it was to the death. I thought he could just exorcise or banish everyone or something.

[PlusSixPelican]

He wants his cup back.

Also, I didn't know it was to the death. I thought he could just exorcise or banish everyone or something.

Yeah. These are all better reasons than my fandom-exploiting one. xD

[Frozen_Feet]

A strong sentimental attachment to the Holy Grail. His mom hand painted the "World's Best Messiah" on there.

Does the Grail have actual connection to Jesus in Fate/Stay? Because if it does, then you probably can't summon him expect as the super-special administratice servant, who can control other servants as if it was a master.

My knowledge of the series is rather limited, I'm going just by a cursory reading of the wiki.

But, as for why Jesus would engage in some good ol' fisticuffs... I remember something about bringing a sword, not peace. :smallamused: But this isn't really a place to discuss this any more deeply.

[kamikasei]

Does the Grail have actual connection to Jesus in Fate/Stay?
No. It's only a model.

The Holy Grail in Fate is an artificial construct / spell / crystallized miracle / Nasubabble thing. Its creators/instantiators/summoners just called it that because it was supposed to grant wishes and be highly sought after. The Church investigated it, as they investigate everything that might be a/The Holy Grail, declared it not the real thing, and maintained an interest because they didn't want the mages running amok rather than because the Grail itself is in any way relevant to their religion.

Also, I really don't want to try to think seriously about how Christianity is supposed to interact with the rest of magic in the Nasuverse. That way madness lies.

[Frozen_Feet]

Is Nasuverse magic the "clap your hands if you believe" sort? If so, that in itself could be the answer.

[Tiki Snakes]

As far as the actual Fate Grail thingy goes, well.
It's not got a direct connection to any religious myth. Probably. It's something created by the main wizarding houses involved. It is called the grail because it can apparently grant any wish.

Two other points as far as the actual Fate Grail War thing;
Firstly, you need some kind of connection to the Heroic Spirit you hope to summon, (usually an artifact of theirs).
Secondly, you don't actually get to control them, per say. They are entirely free willed and have their own reasons for hunting the grail. (If you don't have a reason to want the grail, you don't get to summon a heroic spirit/be summoned as a heroic spirit). At best, the Master gets three command spells which they can use, to either force their Heroic Spirit to obey or reinforce their actions with the power of the spell (for example, commanding a Spirit that can't teleport to come to you from across the city gets it to you on the spot, regardless of everything else). Once you have lost your three command spells, whether or not you can actually continue in the whole thing is a bit hazy.

Oh, and a third point, slightly more spoilery.
A Heroic Spirit can survive past the death of their Master for a time, depending on their stats and remaining mana. A master in a position to do so might be able to adopt them or some such.

On the subject of certain figures being discussed strictly within the context of the Fate series;
I have no idea if there is any religious truth implied by the series. Which is to say, I have no idea if there are any actual gods, let alone any specific ones. However, there's a good chance you would, should you manage to say, acquire the spear of longinus or something, possibly be able to use it to aquire a powerful Heroic Spirit. Fate universe being what it is, you'll either end up with a mysterious gallilean Caster Class (likely with various unexpected secrets and motivations) or end up with a Lancer Class Roman of some kind. Narrative law being what it is, probably whichever one suits you least or that you are least expecting.

And no, Nasuverse or at least Fate magic tends to not be the clap your hands if you believe sort, in general.

[Frozen_Feet]

It would be humorous to try using the Lance of Longinus to summon Jesus, only to get, well, Longinus instead. :smallbiggrin:

[MLai]

Ilya Muromets, one of those "guys grossly exaggerated by legend who had a historical basis" guys. Literally the most well-known and strongest warrior of Russian folk tales
All guys with girls' names are ridiculously badass. And this guy is Russian on top of that. I'd say he qualifies. :smallbiggrin:

Does the Grail have actual connection to Jesus in Fate/Stay?
Again, the answer is "Unfortunately, no."
My personal opinion is that FSN had an awesome premise at first glance: Harry Potter + Highlander + Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.
However, Nasu then proceeded to ruin it in the ways only a Japanese nerd can, adding all the irrelevant convoluted stats and backstory, stripping away all the mystique.
"The Holy Grail? Yeah isn't that just awesome symbolism for this story? So I'm going to come right out in chapter 2 and tell the readers that it isn't the REAL Holy Grail, just a generic McGuffin no one actually cares about. Whee I'm a smart writer."

It would be humorous to try using the Lance of Longinus to summon Jesus, only to get, well, Longinus instead. :smallbiggrin:
That would be a case of the weapon being more famous/powerful than the man wielding it, however. And well Longinus would have a clear motivation for joining the Grail War.

And as far as the heroes are concerned, magic is indeed the "clap your hands if you believe" type. All the heroes' mystical powers are based on the collective dreams and hopes of humanity.

[tensai_oni]

All guys with girls' names are ridiculously badass. And this guy is Russian on top of that. I'd say he qualifies. :smallbiggrin:


Uh, what?

Ilya is a male name. So is Sasha, but it seems a lot of non-Russian people didn't get the memo.

[Flickerdart]

All guys with girls' names are ridiculously badass. And this guy is Russian on top of that. I'd say he qualifies. :smallbiggrin:

Ilya is not a girl's name. It's the Slavic version of Elijah.

Uh, what?

Ilya is a male name. So is Sasha, but it seems a lot of non-Russian people didn't get the memo.
Sasha is not a name at all, merely a diminutive form, and equally valid for either Alexander or Alexandra.


Also, I just remembered that the fictional character I wanted to use was based on a real life person...so I nominate Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Munchausen) as the ultimate summon. It doesn't really matter what he does in combat, because the man's retcon is so powerful that he wins retroactively.

[Kid Jake]

I'd have to go with Andrew Jackson. He's basically the American Kratos. I doubt if he'd be able to hold his own against the likes of Leonidas or Nobunaga; but by God it'd be fun to watch him try.

[SuperPanda]

So expanding out from my pick above... in the likely case I wasn't the first master to summon a servant and didn't have pick of the class I summoned I'd want to have options ready for different eventualities.


Caster: Zhuge Liang. Nobel Phantasm would probably be either his fan granting him control of storms... or far more likely his musical instrument which causes a "Sanctuary" like effect for a short time (based on the time he made an approaching army retreat but throwing the doors open and calmly playing music while sitting upon the open gates for all to see. The enemy retreated on the basis that if Zhuge Liang looked calm, anyone attacking him was going to die). As Casters go, Zhuge Liang is probably not anywhere near the most powerful option, but his mind more than makes up for that. Berserker is the enemy I'd worry about the most because the classes mindless raw power is a perfect foil for a careful and measured tactician like Zhuge Liang... It could all too easily turn out like Loki vs Hulk in the Avengers.

Saber: Yagyu Munenori. In historical record he only fought one time, when seven enemy's breached his lords army and attacked his camp while he as his master were playing a game of Go. According to the legends he calmly stood up killed all seven of them and sat back down to make his move. As the bodys hit the ground he asked his master if he'd like to resume his sword-fighting lessons. Nobel Phantasm would probably be based on the Life Giving Sword, or possibly even the No Sword : An ability to turn opponents Nobel Phantasms against them "Once you truely understand how to wield a sword, all swords are your swords." Munenori's pacifistic nature suits me fine, but might cause problems in the Grail war, and his reliance on counter-attacks leaves him open to nasty surprises.

Archer: Sinbad. Not particularly skilled with a bow and arrow, but in an engagement on the water there would be very few Servants who stand a chance against him. Very competent, fast, and cunning... the hardest part of having Sinbad in the Archer class is the Archer's ability for Independent action. Still, Sinbad was very loyal to anyone he could call friend. Forge that bond with him and he'd be a great servant.

Lancer: Achilles, possessed of a spear which can heal, invulnerability apart from his very famous weakness, And enough brute strength to give a Berserker class a run for its money. (If I can't have Achilles, Lugh from Irish legend was going to be my second choice)

Berserker: Beowulf. The Norse superman with the invincible handshake. Beowulf is fast, powerful, and loves to boast. Able to swim down the gullet of a sea monster and punch his way out.

The Berserker class is one I'm least likely to use well, and Beowulf is probably the least likely of the list to work with me well. Thankfully Beowulf is passingly intelligent, though Ragnar Lothbran would be more so, I think the Berserker template diminishes that somewhat.

Rider: Bellerophon, Tamer of the Pegasus and slayer of the Chimera. Very simple reason here... air superiority. Unless I'm somehow up against the Red Baron (who'd also be a Rider class) Bellerophon should be able to act from the sky with only Caster and Archer classes able to strike back. First order of business then is to find a Master of a Lancer, Berserker, or Saber class who isn't very bright and get them to help me eliminate Caster and Assasin fast, followed by Archer. Chances are the Saber won't help with Archer, but having only one servant that I need to seriously worry about is better than having 3.

Assassin: Sinuhe of Egypt. Gifted with stealth and cunning of an Assassin class and physical strength of an Archer Class. Sinuhe would make a fine Servant. Able to dodge arrow and catch a battle axe thrown by a Berserker in his time his physical abilities should let him hold up in a fight against weaker servants. This would be his real advantage and one the other Masters will not be expecting from an Assassin class. Having been a leader and tactician in his time, he'd be a good servant to plan the battle with. The major concern to have with him as a Servant is his likely homesickness as the battle drags on. Very giften in Stealth, Recon, Tactics, and more than capable in a fight, Sinuhe's greatest weakness as an Assassin class is his lack of proficiency in quick killing, such as from poisons.

---------

Why Munenori over Musashi? Musashi is more a Berserker compared to Munenori. He fought many more battles and never lost, but he always went looking for a fight. Musashi is the Servant you call if your hoping to bring overwhelming force down in a head on confrontation Also, on a personal note, it is rumored that one of the reasons he never lost a fight is that he never once bathed in his life and always tried to get very close to the other person... :P

Munenori: Master of counter-attack strategies. Using a single blade with very good finese and is stilled in unarmed combat to disarm other opponents.
Musashi: Master of head on attachs. Uses Katana and Wakizashi to give himself an edge, likes to fight very close to his opponent. Is not known for listening to anyone, ever.

[Sith_Happens]

So I've seen Sun Wukong mentioned twice already, but not in the context of someone actually picking him.

*yoink*

It seems pretty safe to say that Journey to the West has at least the familiarity base of The Epic of Gilgamesh, even if it's younger, and the feats it actually ascribes to Wukong blow every Western mythological figure combined out of the water. And if that weren't enough, being the inspiration for Dragonball has got to count for a lot these days.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Is Nasuverse magic the "clap your hands if you believe" sort? If so, that in itself could be the answer.

The answer is both Yes and No depending on what context you are using it in.

It is possible to shape the world through belief this is part of the creation of Divine Spirits, thought there's some other bits to that. Magecraft can be accurately but incompletely described as rewriting the world.

However this is an incomplete explanation because in the Nasuverse the World can, and does, fight back. The two opposing forces of the Nasuverse are called Gaia and Alaya. Gaia is the will of the planet and sort of like the force of all the natural laws of the way things should be, so it can also be called a set of rules. Alaya is the force arising from the will of Mankind that somehow managed to separate itself from Gaia, and have since then slowly pushed back and devoured Gaia bit by bit.

Over this of course is the idea of Akasha, also called the Root and the Swirl of Origin. This is outside the world entirely removed from it and allows well... anything. The goal of Mages in the Nasuverse is to reach Akasha, generally manifesting as an act that completely breaks the rules of the world referred to as Magic (or Sorcery, True Magic, and probably some other translations) which is generally accounted to have happened five times. Three we know about, including that badass of badasses Zelretch and the crazy destructive girl Aoko Aozaki

And Spoiler Alert:
The entire Holy Grail War in Fuyuki is one big fancy spell ritual to get the Third of these Five Magics back!

Although only Tohsaka Tokiomi has pursured that among the wars we've seen. And its dubious what he may have known about the Great Grail.

Complicating things further various rules are known to have changed over the years for various reasons.

Also the Throne of Heroes is a different way of sorts too reach Akasha since that's where it is. Which is why Servants can be said to generally trounce everything but True Ancestors, Aristoteles, and maybe some phantasmal creatures like Dragons and Divine Spirits that are all now unreachable from the current World.

Because Heroic Spirits were people so badass in life they broke reality and became miracles defying all the rules.

I'm sure everybody reading this is either nodding their heads because they knew that.... or is even more confused.


It would be humorous to try using the Lance of Longinus to summon Jesus, only to get, well, Longinus instead. :smallbiggrin:

That's pretty much in keeping with the Nasuverse and how things work out which can be summarized as: never like you want them too.

Also in keeping with if you used say the Shroud of Turin instead it would be more likely to work... but there'd be something. Like having a Caster with no actual combat skills, but being really cool.

Since you can normally only summon humans, not gods* and while there's a bit of precedent in /Extra's Caster... she is noted to have gotten a major downgrade in power despite in theory being Amaterasu. Instead only appearing in a lesser form of a manifestation of that identity, not even as one of Japan's Three Great Monster. Also Rider was summoned as a smoking hot human.

*I'm going to have to ignore Kaleid Liner here, different reality, different summoning method, etc. Freakin Mjolnir wielded by a cute girl!

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Also, I just remembered that the fictional character I wanted to use was based on a real life person...so I nominate Hieronymus Carl Friedrich von Münchhausen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baron_Munchausen) as the ultimate summon. It doesn't really matter what he does in combat, because the man's retcon is so powerful that he wins retroactively.
...I'm done. I can't top this. Period.

[Mx.Silver]

Also in keeping with if you used say the Shroud of Turin instead it would be more likely to work... but there'd be something. Like having a Caster with no actual combat skills, but being really cool.
I wouldn't rule out him being Avenger class, or a similar abnormal class, actually. In fact there's already at least passing similarity between how Angra Mainyu came about in the Fate verse and what Jesus' death was meant to signify in most branches of Christianity.

Generally though, trying to summon him probably isn't a good idea in any event.

[Soras Teva Gee]

I wouldn't rule out him being Avenger class, or a similar abnormal class, actually. In fact there's already at least passing similarity between how Angra Mainyu came about in the Fate verse and what Jesus' death was meant to signify in most branches of Christianity.

Generally though, trying to summon him probably isn't a good idea in any event.

Anyone wanting to would be better off summoning Joan instead. :smallbiggrin:

Then get to see her so tragic its becomes hilarious Noble Phantasm and awesome hair decorations.

[SowZ]

I would pick Joab. Guy was totally hardcore.

[thorgrim29]

I've been thinking about it (and watching Fate/Stay Night, it's pretty cool), and the answer I've come to is Superman

[Soras Teva Gee]

I've been thinking about it (and watching Fate/Stay Night, it's pretty cool), and the answer I've come to is Superman

Obviously fictional and way too young. Nobody has any belief Superman is even a bit real.

If you got anything it would be a weak Wraith facsimile with poor stats... and he doesn't fit any of the classes on top of that.

Plenty of Servants are historically unlikely at best but are a lot older so have far more accrued "mystery" to draw from.

You might do it in the Moon Cell but it plays by different-ish rules.

[ThePhantom]

Anyone wanting to would be better off summoning Joan instead. :smallbiggrin:

Then get to see her so tragic its becomes hilarious Noble Phantasm and awesome hair decorations.

Joan has been summoned. She's a saber/sovereign, and yes her Noble Phantasm is relatived to her being burned at stake, so it does kill her if she uses it, but she'll take someone with her when she goes.

[chainer1216]

well, because of this thread I've started watching this show, i still don't have all the information, but i think i'd have to go with Musashi, and i disagree with SuperPanda with him being a berserker, or at least older him, anyway. i actually just read the Book of Five Rings, and the contents paint a different type of person, while he did favor very aggressive tactics, he also had a very good grasp of psychology and would often use bluffs and taunts, and he makes it pretty clear that retreating or giving ground in a fight IS an option. i feel the need to also mention that after his duel with Kojiro he pretty much stopped using real sword in fights, favoring Bokken. add to this he was an artist and a sculptor and he just doesn't scream "rage machine" to me.

[SuperPanda]

Re: Musashi.

The point where Musashi stopped using real swords (because he loved fighting but didn't want to keep killing people) is the point where I started respecting him alot more.

I don't think anyone really fits the Berserker template all that much, Lancelot and Hercules certainly don't... The only canonical Saber I've seen has been Arthur, and in that case Saber always been defensive, focused on Honor, and loyal to their Duty. None of those mesh too well with the Musashi of History that I know.

He'd make a fantastic Archer class or Lancer class though... his personality fits very well wih the Lancers I've seen. I only gave him the Berserker template in my imaginging of him in the setting because he's very aggresive and lives for the thrill of the fight.

Musashi's got much more name recognition than Munenori does even though they were considered equals (that never met) in their life times. Musashi lived big in the way of Alexander the Great and other Heroic spirits. His best tactic is to hit hard and fast because once people know who he is they know how to fight him. Munenori is regarded just as highly but with less name recognition and no distinguishing trademark (like Musashi's dual sword style), so he has the option to bide his time - a stratagey I'd me liked to use with Zhuge Liang, Sinuhe, Munenori, or Bellephoron. With Achilles I'd have to attack first, anyone finding out who he is will bea him, but until then he's extremely dangerous, and Beowulf would probably be just as dangerous to me if I made him sit out a fight as he would be to others if I let him fight.

I probably wrote him off a little too easily considering I prefer Munenori's legend and philosophy to Musashis, but that's just personal Bias and I shouldn't do that.

I'd love to see those two servants clash though. Munenori and Musashi... regardless of who wins the battle it would be worth it just to be there.

[Maethirion]

Odyseus. (Im sure I misspelled the name) If only because his legend is of an incredibly clever tactician and he is also a fairly kickass warrior iirc. You want a champ on your side who knows how to stay in it for the long haul as well. Dude spent 10 years trying to get home to his wife, fighting all sorts of mythological creatures.

This is all true, but Odysseus has the tendency to... well lose. A lot. And do a lot of running away. I mean he does do the 'live to fight another day' thing, and while he IS a competent fighter and tactician, he's just outclassed in any combat situation with other heroes.

Also, I'd avoid Achilles like the plague. Arguably invincible except for the heel, strong, yes. Likely to go into a sulk the second he doesn't get his way and be useless the rest of the war? Also yes.



Given that Gilgamesh has been done, I would actually be really curious to see Enkidu as a servant, rather than some kind of chain thing.

[MLai]

Achilles' famous weakness is only accounted for by one Roman poet (Publius Papinius Statius), with no prior supporting sources and clearly contradicting Homer.

As such, I can see a FSN Achilles using this misinformation to his advantage, including blatantly wearing armored boots just to make opponents mistakenly think that he's trying hard to protect his heel (and teasing them to guess at which heel), when in fact the heel weakness is a complete fabrication.

[chainer1216]

so, here's a thought, Robin Hood. you don't get much more famous than him, and it'd be nice to see an archer who used a bow...

also: Cú Chulainn should be a berserker, not a lancer.

[thorgrim29]

Perseus would be a good one for a fighty type. Baba Yaga as a caster? Hyppolita may be a bit less known but she'd make a good servant for a woman. D'Artagnan and Cyrano de Bergerac are both based on real guys (and the real d'Artagnan was arguably more badass then the book version)

[Maethirion]

Achilles' famous weakness is only accounted for by one Roman poet (Publius Papinius Statius), with no prior supporting sources and clearly contradicting Homer.

As such, I can see a FSN Achilles using this misinformation to his advantage, including blatantly wearing armored boots just to make opponents mistakenly think that he's trying hard to protect his heel (and teasing them to guess at which heel), when in fact the heel weakness is a complete fabrication.


I have a vague recollection of it being implied at least in some of the fragments we have of Aeschylus as well, but no, Homer never mentions how Achilles dies, but I'm not sure if you could call that a contradiction. But I'm still a bit unclear here as to how much comes from the actual historical 'truth', and how much comes from the legends to spring up after that.

I see Achilles more as the horrendously overconfident type. Why use misdirection? He's just that awesome that he can just charge right in and expect to win. Or so he would think. Pride is kind of his big thing.

[MLai]

Uh, what?
Ilya is a male name. So is Sasha, but it seems a lot of non-Russian people didn't get the memo.
Nevermind, you need to have seen/read/played FSN to get the joke.

[thubby]

after a bit of a wiki binge, I found that we're missing something important here.
the servants are people considered worthy that agreed to become what they are for a chance at the grail.

can't just get whoever you can think of, they have to be figures that died with unfulfilled ambitions or goals.


so, here's a thought, Robin Hood. you don't get much more famous than him, and it'd be nice to see an archer who used a bow...

also: Cú Chulainn should be a berserker, not a lancer.

it's entirely possible for one figure to qualify for multiple roles, though they can only be summoned as 1 at a time.
hercules can be saber, as can almost any of the knights of the round table.

[warty goblin]

I have a vague recollection of it being implied at least in some of the fragments we have of Aeschylus as well, but no, Homer never mentions how Achilles dies, but I'm not sure if you could call that a contradiction. But I'm still a bit unclear here as to how much comes from the actual historical 'truth', and how much comes from the legends to spring up after that.

Homer does specifically state that Achilles is/will be killed at the Scaean Gate by Paris and Apollo. There's no mention of precisely how, but there's also exactly zero support anywhere in Homer for Achilles' invulnerability. Given that so much other weird magic stuff regarding Achilles does show up - talking horses for instance - I'd say the fact Homer doesn't reference this means he's not supposed to be seen as such.


I see Achilles more as the horrendously overconfident type. Why use misdirection? He's just that awesome that he can just charge right in and expect to win. Or so he would think. Pride is kind of his big thing.
I don't think there's much in Homer to support this sort of reading on Achilles. Before the death of Patroklus, he's routinely shown to be level-headed and an intelligent leader. Even after Patroklus' death, he still fights cannily; IIRC he's the only fighter in the entirely of the Iliad to be specifically referenced as thinking about where to strike. He's certainly confident, but given the only things to give him any pause are actual deities and things like the entire Trojan army are basically just roadbumps, I wouldn't call that as overconfident.

[MLai]

after a bit of a wiki binge, I found that we're missing something important here.
the servants are people considered worthy that agreed to become what they are for a chance at the grail.
can't just get whoever you can think of, they have to be figures that died with unfulfilled ambitions or goals.
This has already been subverted by the author himself, who stated this character-centric sub-rule/ motivation, but then flaunts it whenever he CBA'ed to give a side character (i.e. any hero not Saber or Red Archer) a decent motivation.

Cuhulainn: "Oh, I'm here because I just like to fight. I'm such a scrapper, duhr huhr!" Oh, you mean you wouldn't like to change the fact that you accidentally killed your own son, if you won the wish?!?!? I don't care how much of a warrior-philosopher you are, killing your own son for no other reason than because you two didn't recognize each other IS NOT something you brush off as que sera sera.
Nasu you should know this.

Gilgamesh: "I'm here because King Of The World~! Wishes are beneath me!" Oh, then I guess the motivation of your entire friggin' epic was just all bull****. Nevermind that all your actions in FSN corresponded perfectly with your original motivation in the only surviving literature that mentions you! Nevermind that it could have been the perfect explanation for why your physical appearance is so young!
Naw, why educate your viewers? Just act nonchalant because that's SO cool!
F U Nasu.

As said... I love the overlying premise of FSN. But once we get down to the nitty gritty I can't F'ing stand it. The only hero Nasu didn't outright ruin is Artoria.

[thubby]

gilgamesh sought immortality. he could get it from the grail, but the very act of being a servant means he's already immortal.

[Soras Teva Gee]

As said... I love the overlying premise of FSN. But once we get down to the nitty gritty I can't F'ing stand it. The only hero Nasu didn't outright ruin is Artoria.

I find this bit extremely ironic coming at the end of a post criticizing Goldie and Lancer for not being like you think their legend says they should be.


gilgamesh sought immortality. he could get it from the grail, but the very act of being a servant means he's already immortal.

MONGREL! Immortality, hah! I gave that to the snake!

Or some such is what he says on the topic. Beside Gil can just drink his potion of youth.

The King of Heroes is here to troll and troll hard. And Kill All the Mongrels.

[Maethirion]

Don't you hate it when your computer freezes after finishing a reply?


Homer does specifically state that Achilles is/will be killed at the Scaean Gate by Paris and Apollo. There's no mention of precisely how, but there's also exactly zero support anywhere in Homer for Achilles' invulnerability. Given that so much other weird magic stuff regarding Achilles does show up - talking horses for instance - I'd say the fact Homer doesn't reference this means he's not supposed to be seen as such.

Sorry, misunderstanding here. I did mean that Homer doesn't give us the precise details of Achilles' death, rather than that he doesn't mention it at all. Beyond that, I concede, you're completely right. I'm now curious, though, as to where the heel thing came from, especially if it were around by the time of Aeschylus.


I don't think there's much in Homer to support this sort of reading on Achilles. Before the death of Patroklus, he's routinely shown to be level-headed and an intelligent leader. Even after Patroklus' death, he still fights cannily; IIRC he's the only fighter in the entirely of the Iliad to be specifically referenced as thinking about where to strike. He's certainly confident, but given the only things to give him any pause are actual deities and things like the entire Trojan army are basically just roadbumps, I wouldn't call that as overconfident.

See, here I have to disagree. While yes, Achilles is a canny fighter, aims his strikes and is very good at what he does, he gives almost no thought whatsoever as to when he should be fighting. While you're absolutely right, there's really nothing in the Iliad to challenge him beyond gods, this just highlights all the more that when he does come up against one, he doesn't back down unless he has absolutely no other option. Up against others on his level, I imagine the same thing happening. He just wouldn't consider that they could be his equal.
Before Patroklus' death, we see very little of him actually. He refuses to fight because he feels slighted, and continues to refuse under all circumstances supposedly because it goes against his honour. But in fact, it's more because he's angry with Agamemnon and the others. Rage. Pride. Not exactly level headed. Unless I've forgotten something major.
After Patroklus' death, we see more of his overconfidence. When challenged (metaphorically) by Xanthus, an immortal river-god, he jumps straight in with no second thoughts, and doesn't realise he's in over his head until it's almost too late and he has to be bailed out by Hera and Hephaestus.

Come to think of it, he'd probably make a very good berserker. And definitely has a wish for the Grail - Patroklus.

[MLai]

I find this bit extremely ironic coming at the end of a post criticizing Goldie and Lancer for not being like you think their legend says they should be.
(1) It's not "like I think their legends say they should be."
It is "like their legends say they should be."
It's not difficult. Just read them.

(2) Superficially, yes Arthur is ~so ruined~ because Nasu turned him into a jailbait love interest. But look past the genderbending and I found her arc as one of the most poignant elegies for Arthur that I've ever read. Small details were changed/omitted, but it was as if the author truly understood the heart and soul of the king, and endeavored to give her tragically unfulfilled soul a proper send-off into heaven through his small contribution to her global myth.

It didn't matter if Saber was a small cute girl, or a tall bearded man. Against all odds, Nasu got Arthur.

I've always been an Arthurian enthusiast, and I consider that part of me further enriched after having known FSN. That is why I will always really love FSN: 1st branch. The 2nd and 3rd branches, FZ, and all the related media are just shonen anime to me. Good, but not soul-shaking.

gilgamesh sought immortality. he could get it from the grail, but the very act of being a servant means he's already immortal.
Which is stupid in-universe and out-universe. Another reason why I hate Nasu, because he stumbles into this beautiful setup and then proceeds to ruin it every step of the way.

(1) In-universe, remaining as a Servant means that he's still slave to the Throne, slave to the rules of the Grail War, and exists solely by being some mana-vampire. That's not remotely dignified. The obvious preferred choice would be to be reborn as the 3/4 god he once was, this time with immortality bonus.

(2) Out-universe, I can't think of a better way to ruin your own dramatic narrative. Have the protag lament the inevitable tragic end of his star-crossed love, but oh look here's another character who strolls around blatantly breaching the unbreachable barrier (of time/death) with no negative physical or moral consequences!
It's like trying to make Romeo & Juliet a better story by introducing comic book death conventions.

[Elder Tsofu]

(1) In-universe, remaining as a Servant means that he's still slave to the Throne, slave to the rules of the Grail War, and exists solely by being some mana-vampire. That's not remotely dignified. The obvious preferred choice would be to be reborn as the 3/4 god he once was, this time with immortality bonus.

(2) Out-universe, I can't think of a better way to ruin your own dramatic narrative. Have the protag lament the inevitable tragic end of his star-crossed love, but oh look here's another character who strolls around blatantly breaching the unbreachable barrier (of time/death) with no negative physical or moral consequences!
It's like trying to make Romeo & Juliet a better story by introducing comic book death conventions.

I haven't seen the Fate/SN animé, so my points are from my rusty memory of the Visual novel which might or might not be relevant to the animé plot. Animé watchers have been warned.

1) If you look again at red archers back-story you might see why being someone's familiar could be preferable to being reset and go back being a heroic spirit. Non-dignified or not it might be seen as preferable to eternally being humanity's garbage-man. And Gilgamesh found an amusing partner, which seem to be all the reason needed for that character as he was written...

2) Well, they were quite astonished/aghast at Gilgamesh's appearance at the end(ish) of the Fate-route since it shouldn't had been possible. So it is not as Gilgamesh was strutting around in plain sight while the protagonists moped around.

[Slayn82]

Well, i think the best servant for me would be Caster Sir Isaac Newton. Between developing Calculus and Newtonian Physics, he was also an alchemist and headed the Royal Mint, giving him an enormous amount of political power in his time, that he exerced from the Tower of London.

Now give him the updated knowledge from the summoning, the understanding of all the discoveries and inventions that came after his death, add his statement "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants", and consider that as long as mankind has any scientific knowledge, his legend will keep growing, and even if mankind ever get out of Earth, his name won't be forgotten. Any country, almost any culture right now has someone quietly thinking about his works. And if Gilgamesh bring his spaceship, Newton will show him that "Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a bitch in space."

This world more or less IS his reality marble.

[MLai]

FSN SPOILERS APLENTY:

1) If you look again at red archers back-story you might see why being someone's familiar could be preferable to being reset and go back being a heroic spirit. Non-dignified or not it might be seen as preferable to eternally being humanity's garbage-man. And Gilgamesh found an amusing partner, which seem to be all the reason needed for that character as he was written...
1. Gil would wish to become independent (i.e. not some magus' familiar) as soon as he is able. That is in his character, both in Epic and in Nasu-verse.
2. I meant that Gil should reasonably wish "I want to be reborn as I once was (a living 3/4-god), but immortal on top of that." That would have freed him from the Throne cycle. That should be his Grail wish. Note, this is what could easily have happened in FSN anyways; in fact what happened to him in the story is almost equivalent of this. But Nasu, bless his heart, went out of his way to contradict all of that.

2) Well, they were quite astonished/aghast at Gilgamesh's appearance at the end(ish) of the Fate-route since it shouldn't had been possible. So it is not as Gilgamesh was strutting around in plain sight while the protagonists moped around.
Part of the story's tragedy was that (or, should have been that) Shiro and Saber's separation is inevitable. A lot of the narrative drama hinged on that expectation. Nasu went ahead and ruined it not only by Gil becoming "immortal" via Grail sludge without any consequences*, but also with the optional good ending of Tohsaka taking over Saber and keeping her effectively "immortal" in direct contradiction of what is/isn't within the power of the Grail War system.
If it was that easy to keep a Heroic Spirit around after the Grail War, hell, every Magi should just come to the War, summon a hero, then not fight and run away. You get a lifelong Heroic Spirit familiar for free! The Heroic Spirit gets to frolic around on Earth and shirk his janitorial duties for 50+ years! Everybody wins!

[Tiki Snakes]

If it was that easy to keep a Heroic Spirit around after the Grail War, hell, every Magi should just come to the War, summon a hero, then not fight and run away. You get a lifelong Heroic Spirit familiar for free! The Heroic Spirit gets to frolic around on Earth and shirk his janitorial duties for 50+ years! Everybody wins!

Problems this might encounter;
If you don't want the Grail, you don't get the command spells. You might not know you want the Grail, but it's still a thing.
Heroic Servants ALSO want the Grail and aren't under your control, so you'd have to hope to summon a servant weak enough that a really general command spell of "Stop trying to get the grail and come be my servant" would actually have any chance of binding them.
The other mages would likely try and hunt you and your Servant down before long, as you are clearly not a major threat if your first action is "Flee!".
I'm also sure that there was some mention of the Servants only being possible because of the power of the Grail. With Gilgamesh being sustained between grail wars via the horrific magical torture of those kids in the church.

et cetera.
Not sure I've seen the optional ending you're complaining about though, so I can't comment any more directly. :smallsmile:

[Nerd-o-rama]

The three instances of Servants sticking around after the War is over - Gil, UBW Good End, and HF True End - are all explained by special circumstances and mages finding alternative sources for large amounts of magical power:

Gil gets a physical form from his exposure to Angra Mainyu and Kotomine keeps him powered up with forsaken children. Rin and Shirou in UBW good end are two mages with stupidly large mana pools working together, one of whom is a genius and both of whom are kind of obsessed with Saber. Rider gets to stay around in HF True End because Sakura is still a near-infinite mana pool.

Why their contracts stick around, though, I'm not super clear on.

Anyway the narrative point of Fate's ending was Saber learning to let go of her regrets and transcend her single-minded ideals. Or at least that's what I got out of it - the rules of the magic system just served to reinforce that.

And besides, rules in Fate/Stay Night exist solely to be broken anyway.

Back on topic, I would not want to get involved in this crap. Heroic figures have a frequent tendency to not actually be remotely nice people.

EDIT: And now that I think about it I'm still not really clear on how seriously we're supposed to take UBW Good End.

[Yora]

I'd probably go with Henry the Lion. He supposedly founded my home city (or made it into a place worth putting on a map) and is really the only historical warrior figure of some reknown from our region.

[Eulalios]

Ok, there's a few biblical figures in here, but I haven't seen anyone mention Samson yet.

He's the ultimate Berserker. When he eventually loses, everyone else dies.

Someone mentioned that the servant has to have an unfulfilled destiny, that would suit Samson well, he was betrayed while trying to crusade the Philistines out of Palestine ...

Another option would be Moses, who died within sight of the Promised Land. He'd make a great Caster.

[Aedilred]

If the Trojan War figures are taken as historical, I'd have to have Diomedes. He's a more balanced version of Achilles; he tends to get left out of modern depictions of the war just because his lack of flaws compared to his comrades make him less "interesting". Apart from the whole "disregarding instructions and attacking a god" bit.

Ignoring Trojan War characters, Richard the Lionheart would be one option. Terrible king, but one of the greatest warriors of all time, and he has some mighty personal mythology.

Or, failing that, Leonidas, or perhaps Lysander. You can't go far wrong with a kickass Spartan warrior-king.

[Frozen_Feet]

He's the ultimate Berserker. When he eventually loses, everyone else dies.

That is the reason I did not pick him, yes. :smalltongue:

[warty goblin]

Don't you hate it when your computer freezes after finishing a reply?

Oh yeah.


Sorry, misunderstanding here. I did mean that Homer doesn't give us the precise details of Achilles' death, rather than that he doesn't mention it at all. Beyond that, I concede, you're completely right. I'm now curious, though, as to where the heel thing came from, especially if it were around by the time of Aeschylus.

It could well be part of the tradition dating back to around Homer's time that he simply didn't incorporate into the Iliad, like the Judgement of Paris. Either that or somebody just made it up later as a sort of Chuck Norris fact.


S
ee, here I have to disagree. While yes, Achilles is a canny fighter, aims his strikes and is very good at what he does, he gives almost no thought whatsoever as to when he should be fighting. While you're absolutely right, there's really nothing in the Iliad to challenge him beyond gods, this just highlights all the more that when he does come up against one, he doesn't back down unless he has absolutely no other option. Up against others on his level, I imagine the same thing happening. He just wouldn't consider that they could be his equal.
On the contrary, I'd say he's really the only character in the Iliad to ask when he should fight. He even provides a cogent answer; when he personally has suffered harm. Everybody else just runs out and stabs things when somebody says go.


Before Patroklus' death, we see very little of him actually. He refuses to fight because he feels slighted, and continues to refuse under all circumstances supposedly because it goes against his honour. But in fact, it's more because he's angry with Agamemnon and the others. Rage. Pride. Not exactly level headed. Unless I've forgotten something major.
While there's no denying Achilles is angry with Agamemnon, I think it's pretty far from the sort of sulk it's usually portrayed as. Pretty much anybody in his situation would be angry.

Book 1 makes it abundantly clear that Agamemnon is, basically, a complete moron who probably couldn't be trusted to organize a picnic. As Achilles points out, he's got no quarrel with Troy; honor and material rewards are literally his only reason to fight. It's completely reasonable for him to decide to withdraw from battle if Agamemnon is going to take Briseis - particularly since the entire plague is caused by Agamemnon's stupidity. There's nothing particularly rash or hotheaded about being angry at a useless blowhard who continually makes bad decisions and shames you in public. Rash would be gutting Agamemnon like a fish, which Achilles specifically does not do.

Moreover it's pretty clear Achilles' anger is limited to Agamemnon. He's polite to absolutely everybody else he encounters, and shows himself a gracious host to the embassy.

I'm not saying he's going to win any medals for level-headedness here, but until Patroklus dies he's hardly a walking rage bomb. After that, well, soldiers can kinda lose it when their buddies get killed.


After Patroklus' death, we see more of his overconfidence. When challenged (metaphorically) by Xanthus, an immortal river-god, he jumps straight in with no second thoughts, and doesn't realise he's in over his head until it's almost too late and he has to be bailed out by Hera and Hephaestus.
Quite a few other heroes go up against gods by whom they would be overmatched, thanks to divine backup.

I find that section quite interesting actually. I think it's better read as an emphasis that no matter how good he is, Achilles can't fight the gods and therefore cannot escape his fate. It's essentially emphasizing his mortality while at the same time elevating him well above everybody else. Nobody else after all can clog a river with the dead. It's a lot of the thematic content of the Iliad in one little chunk; that death is completely inescapable, no matter your excellence.

[MLai]

I find that section quite interesting actually. I think it's better read as an emphasis that no matter how good he is, Achilles can't fight the gods and therefore cannot escape his fate. It's essentially emphasizing his mortality while at the same time elevating him well above everybody else. Nobody else after all can clog a river with the dead. It's a lot of the thematic content of the Iliad in one little chunk; that death is completely inescapable, no matter your excellence.
See, Homer knew how not to ruin his own story with Mary Sues "with near infinite pools of mana."

[Nerd-o-rama]

I guess I should have read this thread more thoroughly to realize that we were comparing a third-rate visual novelist's high school fantasy to one of the most important and enduring works of poetry in the history of the Western world. Then I probably wouldn't have chimed in.

[tensai_oni]

Nevermind, you need to have seen/read/played FSN to get the joke.

I know there's a (female) Ilya in F/SN, but that just means Nasu cannot into European names.

[Prime32]

I know there's a (female) Ilya in F/SN, but that just means Nasu cannot into European names."It's 'Illya' with two L's. There's another Ilya with only one L, and he has no sense of humor at all."

[MLai]

I guess I should have read this thread more thoroughly to realize that we were comparing a third-rate visual novelist's high school fantasy to one of the most important and enduring works of poetry in the history of the Western world. Then I probably wouldn't have chimed in.
NO EXCUSES!

"It's 'Illya' with two L's. There's another Ilya with only one L, and he has no sense of humor at all."
Now it's my turn not to get the joke. No idea what you're quoting.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Now it's my turn not to get the joke. No idea what you're quoting.

He's adapting a quote from Stargate SG-1, the TV series. Richard Dean Anderson's Colonel Jack O'Neill is lampshading how different a character he is from Kurt Russel's Colonel Jack O'Neil in the original Stargate film, even though for the purposes of continuity they are the same person. Also the fact that they changed the spelling for no discernible reason.

The comparison here is that no one is totally sure whether it's Ilya von Einzben or Illya von Einzbern, but since Ilya is a Russian man's name and Illya is nonsense, people often go with the latter. Then again, Ilyasviel and Illyasviel are both nonsense and the two-syllable form is just a diminutive anyway.

[Tiki Snakes]

NO EXCUSES!


More importantly, its really a little off topic.


As far as Ilya as a mans name, that may or may not have been the case, but the simple fact is that if people are using it as a name for girls, its now a gender ambiguous name because that's how it works.

If people eventually stop using it for men altogether, its now a girls name whatever it used to be.

I'm seeing a lot of scientists being suggested here. Plus side? Easier to get a link to, to summon. Down side? Realitic chance that they either won't summon at all, or will be... Less than combat ready. Isaac Neuton may have a trick or two and could well have an amazing Noble Phantasm, but the chance of him being a combat monster are small and being so modern, there is a lot less room for secrets to be revealed. Plus he's more likely to be visually recognisable.

Now if you want a scientist, given the way the thing works, Leonardo Da Vinci is a much better choice. He's distant enough to be both legendary and have room for unexpected reveals, and his legend includes a number of interesting bits that translate nicely. He'd probably be best summoned as Rider, where he can take full advantage of his flying machines and tanks and stuff.

[warty goblin]

See, Homer knew how not to ruin his own story with Mary Sues "with near infinite pools of mana."
I think the better way to understand things is that there's simply a fundamental divide in Homer between gods and mortals. Mortals die, and cannot contest with the gods - though gods can use mortals against each other. And that's pretty much the last word on the matter, there's no exceptions for being just that badass or hotblooded or whatever. Everybody dies, and death isn't easy or pleasant. Men die like animals in the dust and their souls go screaming and cursing into the afterlife.

It's not really how modern stories that dabble with gods and glory tend to work. Usually the heroes survive our stories, or else die nobly for some worthy cause. The Iliad spends its final books elaborately presaging the death of its hero in a war both sides deem not worth the cost by the hands of one of the poem's most despicable characters and the cruelest of its gods. For a work nominally about the glory of heroes in war, the Iliad is remarkably easy to read it as virulently opposed to sending men off to die for the vainglory of kings.

(I'm not saying this was the intent of the work mind you. Putting myself in the headspace of a semi-mythical poet two and a half millennia ago is beyond me. Only that it's possible for a modern audience to read it in this light, and find ample support in the text.)



I guess I should have read this thread more thoroughly to realize that we were comparing a third-rate visual novelist's high school fantasy to one of the most important and enduring works of poetry in the history of the Western world. Then I probably wouldn't have chimed in.

Hey, don't let me spoil your fun. I'm just like the Candyman, but with the Iliad. Mention Achilles, and I'll show up to cause a bronze age derailment.

[PlusSixPelican]

I've got another pick~!

Koschei the Deathless. Why? The first Lich, ever. That's enough explanation by itself.

And speaking of the Iliad...

Eris~

Eris would be another excellent choice. Sure, Achilles can kill a bunch of soldiers when he's not pouting, but Eris can casually start wars, without even using her powers, she just knows how people will behave. She has the power of chaos, entropy, and change, all these other people just have pointy metal bits.

Just remember to invite her to any weddings.

[Eldan]

I'd argue that Eris is very definitely not a historical figure. Not even in the vague maybe-he-is, maybe-he-isn't way that legends like Gilgamesh are.

[Soras Teva Gee]

(1) It's not "like I think their legends say they should be."
It is "like their legends say they should be."
It's not difficult. Just read them.

You know what I don't personally find much of in legends?

Strong characterization. People are pretty uniformly cardboard cut outs we're told everything about, but not really much to make a personality from. Its as "consistent" to make Saber a tragic noble sympathetic figure as it would be to give Arthur a personality like Gil or Iskander.

Legends have maybe some good bad connotations and flowery praise but personality no. That's seriously open to interpretation, heck a part of that is kinda the point here, finding out where legends might have been wrong or only telling have the story.

So yeah I think complaining about Mesopotamians with plate mail, Excalibur being a WMD, or Arthur being a girl is a lot more substantive.

If your coming in insisting a character should be X way as a person then you shouldn't pursue any modern stories about them.

Me far as I'm concerned Saber is roughly as valid a character as Graham Chapman's take. There is no true person behind a legend from a meta-perspective.

Or you'd at least have to go worse then F/SN does.


This world more or less IS his reality marble.

Actually not true. Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, etc science has moved on. Newton no longer provides a consistent description. Consider how he is simultaneously right and wrong about the nature of light.

Which actually makes it more likely his NP Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica more likely to be useful since now he can enforce his view onto the world.

Least he'll be a banging alchemist. Because he was an alchemist and occultist, no joke.



EDIT: And now that I think about it I'm still not really clear on how seriously we're supposed to take UBW Good End.

Simple, an inversion of the usual harem genre.



It's not really how modern stories that dabble with gods and glory tend to work.

In some ways the Nasuverse goes back to that whole hopeless nature of it all thing. Just the idea of gods is replaced with a sort of unthinking universal system.

Along with an ample helping of weird weird logic.

[PlusSixPelican]

I'd argue that Eris is very definitely not a historical figure. Not even in the vague maybe-he-is, maybe-he-isn't way that legends like Gilgamesh are.

She's the instigator of the Trojan War by the Iliad's account. If she doesn't count, Achilles being supernaturally powerful doesn't either.

[Eldan]

Unless you take her as metaphor. "We started the war because of strife" is pretty overt, as far as those go.

[PlusSixPelican]

Unless you take her as metaphor. "We started the war because of strife" is pretty overt, as far as those go.

If you include the parts of history that are mythic as viable for FSN purposes, you have to include the supernatural elements. If Saber (the character), then Merlin. Otherwise you don't get a supernaturally powerful possibly historic (they use GILGAMESH, ffs) figure, you get the actual figure rather than their zeitgeist counterpart, who is way, way less potent 10 out of 10 times.

[Raimun]

I'm not sure if I'm 100% sure how all this works in the series (haven't watched it) but wouldn't Hitler be a strong, if morally bankrupt choice? He's relatively modern figure but there are a lot of stories about him. Perhaps some bad guy could summon Hitler at a season's finale? And Stalin and Mao too for good bad measure?. :smalltongue:

But which one I would pick? Socrates? No, he would just poison himself. I don't think famous explorers would cut it. I guess Miyamoto Musashi would be a good pick. Though with the 300 spartans I would have a lot of spares...

Can you pick living people? If so, I'd pick either Schwarzenegger or Stallone.

[PlusSixPelican]

I'm not sure if I'm 100% sure how all this works in the series (haven't watched it) but wouldn't Hitler be a strong, if morally bankrupt choice? He's relatively modern figure but there are a lot of stories about him. Perhaps some bad guy could summon Hitler at a season's finale? And Stalin and Mao too for good bad measure?. :smalltongue:

But which one I would pick? Socrates? No, he would just poison himself. I don't think famous explorers would cut it. I guess Miyamoto Musashi would be a good pick. Though with the 300 spartans I would have a lot of spares...

Can you pick living people? If so, I'd pick either Schwarzenegger or Stallone.

The spartans? Screw that noise, Sacred Band of Thebes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes).

[Magatsu Izanagi]

On the topic of famous military units, would Easy Company or the 442nd Infantry Regiment be viable choices?

On the subject of summoning Adolf Hitler as a Servant: Oskar Dirlewanger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger) could also be a strong contender as far as utter vileness goes, and Michael Wittman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Wittmann) would be a perfect candidate for Rider.

[warty goblin]

She's the instigator of the Trojan War by the Iliad's account. If she doesn't count, Achilles being supernaturally powerful doesn't either.

Technically Eris crashing the wedding of Pelius and Thetis as the lead-up to the Judgement of Paris which caused Paris to abduct Helen appears nowhere in Homer. I think you're thinking Hesiod. The only cause Homer ever gives is Menelaus' loss of Helen and her treasure; but not even the gods mention any other, deeper cause. Given how quarrelsome they are, it would probably show up.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Technically Eris crashing the wedding of Pelius and Thetis as the lead-up to the Judgement of Paris which caused Paris to abduct Helen appears nowhere in Homer. I think you're thinking Hesiod. The only cause Homer ever gives is Menelaus' loss of Helen and her treasure; but not even the gods mention any other, deeper cause. Given how quarrelsome they are, it would probably show up.

It's kinda complicated, but Eris tossed the apple of strife which caused the goddesses to argue over who should get it, they picked Paris to decide, he chose Aphrodite for her promise of the most beautiful woman, and it turns out that the most beautiful woman already had a husband.

[warty goblin]

It's kinda complicated, but Eris tossed the apple of strife which caused the goddesses to argue over who should get it, they picked Paris to decide, he chose Aphrodite for her promise of the most beautiful woman, and it turns out that the most beautiful woman already had a husband.

That is the outline of that particular version, yes. It just is never in any way referenced in Homer; not the apple, or Paris' judgement, or anything beyond Paris abducting Helen and her treasure from Menelaus. There are some things that are certainly consistent with that tradition - which goddesses are on which side, Aphrodite's favor for Paris and her power over Helen - but that's it.

[The Rose Dragon]

Sun Wukong. Since if people can get Medusa, I should be allowed to get Sun Wukong.

If not Sun Wukong, Alexander the Great. If Saber can get summoned twice, and Assassin can get summoned five times, I can get Alexander the Great.

((Sure, neither of them would fight for me without a command spell, but think of the parties we'd be having!))

[Nerd-o-rama]

I'm not sure if I'm 100% sure how all this works in the series (haven't watched it) but wouldn't Hitler be a strong, if morally bankrupt choice? He's relatively modern figure but there are a lot of stories about him. Perhaps some bad guy could summon Hitler at a season's finale? And Stalin and Mao too for good bad measure?. :smalltongue:

But which one I would pick? Socrates? No, he would just poison himself. I don't think famous explorers would cut it. I guess Miyamoto Musashi would be a good pick. Though with the 300 spartans I would have a lot of spares...

Can you pick living people? If so, I'd pick either Schwarzenegger or Stallone.

Generally speaking, Servants tend toward the personally and physically Heroic. Hitler (while almost a valid choice in canon because someone hacked the Grail to allow villains, but too recent by Fate/Stay Night rules) hasn't got much going for him but preternatural charisma, cynical understanding of human nature, and a brief stint as a courier.

Unless that one comic where he has a wizard's duel with Stalin or that mahjong manga turned out to be true, then he'd be a hell of a Caster.

Speaking of explorers, though, Francis(ca) Drake shows up in a spinoff of Fate/Stay Night and is a badass. Pizzaro and Cortez are also good choices if you're looking for genocidal loonies.

[molten_dragon]

I've recently gotten in FSN and while the anime is cool, I like the concept surrounding it much better. Summoning famous figures from history to battle in a magical contest for you, in hopes of winning an amazing prize. Sign me up!

So the deal is that the older and more mythical your Servant is, the more powerful as humanity has had more time to create stories based on his or her legend. Personally, I'd go for Abraham Lincoln. Yes his story is less than two hundred years old, but it's powerful and in my opinion there hasn't been another guy whose story has become myth so fast. Fallout 3 is a good example of how Lincoln's story will last the ages. Plus there's just something fantastic about imagining bishounen Abe Lincoln, possibly with a vampire-slaying axe or rail-splitting hammer, fighting magical demons and wizards and whatnot.

So who would your summoned Servant be? Be creative!

Either Jesus, Mohammed, or Buddha. I can't really think of anyone more legendary or who have changed history more than those three men.

[warty goblin]

Either Jesus, Mohammed, or Buddha. I can't really think of anyone more legendary or who have changed history more than those three men.

Well, there's the unknown schmuck or group of schmucks from possibly Anatolia some five or seven or nine thousand years ago who figured out how to cast copper. Since pretty much all metalworking stems from this, or other independent but later discoveries of the same technology, I'd say it probably outdoes your average prophet by quite a bit.

[Sith_Happens]

((Sure, neither of them would fight for me without a command spell, but think of the parties we'd be having!))

Luckily, Wukong comes with one.

[Flickerdart]

I've got another pick~!

Koschei the Deathless. Why? The first Lich, ever. That's enough explanation by itself.
Koschei was rubbish. He has no powers worth a damn, his phylactery is protected by small woodland animals, and his defining trait is sitting on a pile of gold forever.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Generally speaking, Servants tend toward the personally and physically Heroic. Hitler (while almost a valid choice in canon because someone hacked the Grail to allow villains, but too recent by Fate/Stay Night rules) hasn't got much going for him but preternatural charisma, cynical understanding of human nature, and a brief stint as a courier.

Unless that one comic where he has a wizard's duel with Stalin or that mahjong manga turned out to be true, then he'd be a hell of a Caster.

I could see him as a Lelouch-type Caster.

[Sith_Happens]

I could see him as a Lelouch-type Caster.

That sentence has got to be one of the single scariest things I've ever read.

[MLai]

@ Of gods and soldiers:
Outside of non-canon games, gods (especially human-looking gods) are unsummonable. Especially since gods don't really have regrets, and they don't need the Grail to get miracles.
As for soldiers scientists and other famous people, the problem is that there's no mythology surrounding them i.e. magic and divinity. Again, the non-canon games screwed this up a lot and gave people the wrong impression about what constitutes a "Heroic Spirit" by putting in people like Shakespeare (seriously?).
Explain to me how someone like Shakespeare "defied destiny with feats that are like miracles." And I do not mean that metaphorically.
And you can't arbitrarily give someone superpowers that he never had or was ever said to have, just because you think that'd be badass. Hitler does not have, and would not have the Geas(s).

Legends have maybe some good bad connotations and flowery praise but personality no. That's seriously open to interpretation, heck a part of that is kinda the point here, finding out where legends might have been wrong or only telling have the story.
If your coming in insisting a character should be X way as a person then you shouldn't pursue any modern stories about them..
My finer point is that I don't care whether Arthur was an arrogant blowhard or the classy hillbilly as represented in FSN. All I cared about Nasu representing correctly was the tragic nobility of a warlord/king who fought to preserve his burning nation until the last dying ember. That is not a matter of characterization, that is a matter of deduction from archaeology, mythology, and history.
Same goes with Epic Of Gil. What survives is pretty clear; there's no room for interpretation. The epic clearly states Gil does not want to die, and goes on a quest to seek out immortality.
Same goes for Cuhulainn and his son.

[Frozen_Feet]

Tell me someone called "the White Death" has no mythology surrounding him. Go ahead. :smallamused: Simo Häyhä even has a song for himself.

Gustavus Adolphus was thought to fulfill a Protestant prophecy of a man who would free protestants of Europe from Catcholicism's grasp. Hence the name "Lion of the North".

There are shamans in Siberia who allegedly call forth spirits of Stalin and Lenin for advice.

Hitler has been compared to the Anti-Christ, and there still are people who believe he was one. And don't even get me started on rest of the conscpiracies surrounding the Third Reich.

The line between history and mythology is thin. Even in the world of today. See also: Elvis Presley and Chuck Norris. :smalltongue:

[Traab]

@ Of gods and soldiers:
Outside of non-canon games, gods (especially human-looking gods) are unsummonable. Especially since gods don't really have regrets, and they don't need the Grail to get miracles.
As for soldiers scientists and other famous people, the problem is that there's no mythology surrounding them i.e. magic and divinity. Again, the non-canon games screwed this up a lot and gave people the wrong impression about what constitutes a "Heroic Spirit" by putting in people like Shakespeare (seriously?).
Explain to me how someone like Shakespeare "defied destiny with feats that are like miracles." And I do not mean that metaphorically.
And you can't arbitrarily give someone superpowers that he never had or was ever said to have, just because you think that'd be badass. Hitler does not have, and would not have the Geas(s).

My finer point is that I don't care whether Arthur was an arrogant blowhard or the classy hillbilly as represented in FSN. All I cared about Nasu representing correctly was the tragic nobility of a warlord/king who fought to preserve his burning nation until the last dying ember. That is not a matter of characterization, that is a matter of deduction from archaeology, mythology, and history.
Same goes with Epic Of Gil. What survives is pretty clear; there's no room for interpretation. The epic clearly states Gil does not want to die, and goes on a quest to seek out immortality.
Same goes for Cuhulainn and his son.

The Charge of the Light Brigade. Tennyson

Half a league half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd ?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd & thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turn'd in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack & Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke,
Shatter'd & sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse & hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!


I dare you, i freaking DARE YOU to try and claim thats a brigade of soldiers who didnt "defy destiny with feats that are like miracles" Doesnt matter if thats the way it actually happened, doesnt matter how it really went. That poem is how they are REMEMBERED.

[Hopeless]

Has anyone suggested El Cid?:smallredface:

[MLai]

Nothing of that poem spoke of magical invulnerability, divine assistance, supernatural elements, superhuman powers (like turning invisible, having super strength, cutting own head off and still walking around, etc etc etc).

When you compare renowned modern heroes and mythological heroes, there is a WIDE disparity in ability. Sure, that sniper was an incredible badass well into Hollywood action hero standards. But he still cannot take over for Atlas for a day. Or drag Cerberus out of Hades with his bare hands. He just can't.

He can't even compare with Red Archer. Because weak as Red Archer was/is, he still had supernatural abilities when it comes down to it.

Everyone summoned ancient/classical heroes for a reason.

[Mx.Silver]

I dare you, i freaking DARE YOU to try and claim thats a brigade of soldiers who didnt "defy destiny with feats that are like miracles" Doesnt matter if thats the way it actually happened, doesnt matter how it really went. That poem is how they are REMEMBERED.

Be that as it may, the thing is you can only one individual servant, rather than a group or an entire regiment. Unless your servant is capable of splitting themselves into multiple bodies, of course, but afaik there's only been one in the franchise who could do that.

[Frozen_Feet]

When you compare renowned modern heroes and mythological heroes, there is a WIDE disparity in ability. Sure, that sniper was an incredible badass well into Hollywood action hero standards. But he still cannot take over for Atlas for a day. Or drag Cerberus out of Hades with his bare hands. He just can't.

He can't even compare with Red Archer. Because weak as Red Archer was/is, he still had supernatural abilities when it comes down to it.

You don't get it. You're only looking at his documented feats. Even those alone, as you put it, place him in "action movie hero", which in itself makes him a implausible/mythical person to them.

Now start thinking how the soviets, those under actual peril from him, must've felt. To say they felt supernatural fear towards him is no exaggeration in light of human psychology.

"I swear, that guy must be a ghost!"

[Traab]

Be that as it may, the thing is you can only one individual servant, rather than a group or an entire regiment. Unless your servant is capable of splitting themselves into multiple bodies, of course, but afaik there's only been one in the franchise who could do that.

Wasnt there one guy with a reality marble that called up an army? If it worked that way, then we get the commander of the brigade, and his ultimate attack? He unleashes his full forces in an irresistible charge. No offense can blunt it, no defense can block it, an unstoppable wave of men and horses, charging towards their target. They WILL take that target.

[Tiki Snakes]

Wasnt there one guy with a reality marble that called up an army? If it worked that way, then we get the commander of the brigade, and his ultimate attack? He unleashes his full forces in an irresistible charge. No offense can blunt it, no defense can block it, an unstoppable wave of men and horses, charging towards their target. They WILL take that target.

It's not a hard and fast rule by a long way, but the thing about Noble Phantasms is, once you've used it, people know what it is.
So the chance of it working more than once is...limited.

[D_Lord]

@ Of gods and soldiers:
Again, the non-canon games screwed this up a lot and gave people the wrong impression about what constitutes a "Heroic Spirit" by putting in people like Shakespeare (seriously?).
Explain to me how someone like Shakespeare "defied destiny with feats that are like miracles." And I do not mean that metaphorically.
.

Shakespeare is cannon, just not in the fate/stay night game, he is in the Fate/Apocrypha game.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Do we really want to get into what is and is not canon when it comes to Nasu?

Really?

Really?

(Also even the "non-canon games" pretty much don't give us gods, admittedly. The closest we get are the demigods of the original novel, legendary figures of politics who might have been avatars of amatsukami, and I think a Buddha. Also Arcueid who gets nerfed to hell, but she's more of an anthropomorphic personification than a god, per se.)


Shakespeare is cannon, just not in the fate/stay night game, he is in the Fate/Apocrypha game.

That said, http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cannon_%28disambiguation%29

[The Rose Dragon]

Simo Häyhä won't be a heroic spirit, because he uses guns. His primary claim to fame is being good with a gun. Skill with guns is apparently insufficient to be a heroic spirit, because Nasu said so.

Then again, Nasu said a lot of things, around 100% of which contradicts some other thing he said.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Simo Häyhä won't be a heroic spirit, because he uses guns. His primary claim to fame is being good with a gun. Skill with guns is apparently insufficient to be a heroic spirit, because Nasu said so.

Then again, Nasu said a lot of things, around 100% of which contradicts some other thing he said.

The more consistent rule is that there's a cutoff date for how recent a Heroic Spirit can be, which is hazy, but definitely pre-20th Century. Assuming you're not a Counter Guardian who manages to cheat his way into the Grail War because Rin Tohsaka's epic failures are more impressive than most characters' crowning successes.

Dammit, there really aren't any consistent rules.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I can't believe I forgot the greatest sniper in the world.

And yeah, while the too-recent thing is valid, "guns don't count" is just some arbitrary rule made by someone with a little too much nostalgia for historical warfare and ignorance for modern warfare.

[Prime32]

And yeah, while the too-recent thing is valid, "guns don't count" is just some arbitrary rule made by someone with a little too much nostalgia for historical warfare and ignorance for modern warfare.It helps that the justification for this is "they accomplished it because their weapons were awesome, not them", and part of Häyhä's story is that his gun was fairly unimpressive.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It helps that the justification for this is "they accomplished it because their weapons were awesome, not them", and part of Häyhä's story is that his gun was fairly unimpressive.

People never complain about Mjolnir. Or the fact that Zeus's lightning was actually crafted by the cyclops.

[Nerd-o-rama]

People never complain about Mjolnir. Or the fact that Zeus's lightning was actually crafted by the cyclops.

Or Perseus, period.

He did get cut from the original story, but that's because the artist wanted to draw more boobs.

And boy did he succeed with Rider.

Hell, isn't "awesome weapon" the default assumption for a Noble Phantasm? Admittedly they're all also metaphors for the legendary characters' various themes, but still...

[Traab]

People never complain about Mjolnir. Or the fact that Zeus's lightning was actually crafted by the cyclops.

Too be fair, there is more to those who hold these weapons than just the weapons. Thor took part in a number of adventures that his hammer didnt factor into. Zeus used hardly any lightning at all to seduce that woman as a goose. (Seriously, wtf?!) So there is a difference between a legendary warrior with a legendary weapon, and a warrior who is only legendary BECAUSE of his weapon.

[Hiro Protagonest]

And there's the fact that "winner has technological superiority" isn't a recent thing. Alexander the Great conquered the middle east using his and his dad's inventions, moreso than anything else.

And, yeah, Thor and Zeus did do impressive stuff. But snipers aren't made by their rifles. What rifle you have really only matters if you're fighting countersnipers. Alertness and analysis matter far more.

[MLai]

The chief difference between contemporary heroes and ancient heroes is not difference in ability, but difference in humanity's collective consciousness. After the advent of modern rationalism, great individuals are no longer correlated with mystical or divine gifts/abilities. No matter how badass Simo Hayha was IRL, his exploits will never exaggerate over time into blatantly supernatural proportions such as him having Wolverine senses and healing. Action movie hero is as far as he'll go in legend.

It's like a case of pitting Captain America or Batman against Superman.

[Frozen_Feet]

Good thing he was already exaggarated. :smalltongue: He was an invisible boogieman to the soviets, hence the nickname. Age of rationality be darned.

[warty goblin]

Good thing he was already exaggarated. :smalltongue: He was an invisible boogieman to the soviets, hence the nickname. Age of rationality be darned.

The belief that humans are rational is, itself, deeply irrational. I mean have you actually looked at how people think?

[Sith_Happens]

The chief difference between contemporary heroes and ancient heroes is not difference in ability, but difference in humanity's collective consciousness. After the advent of modern rationalism, great individuals are no longer correlated with mystical or divine gifts/abilities. No matter how badass Simo Hayha was IRL, his exploits will never exaggerate over time into blatantly supernatural proportions such as him having Wolverine senses and healing. Action movie hero is as far as he'll go in legend.

It's like a case of pitting Captain America or Batman against Superman.

Give it time. Sure, the claims of/association with superpowers won't be something that people actually believe, but I'm pretty sure it'll be there.

[ArlEammon]

Perhaps Merlin/King Arthur

or Sun Wukong?

[grolim]

Going for silliness.

Freddie Mercury, ownage with pure awesome.

Saint Nick...Who knows what he can pull from his toy bag, moves with unimaginable speed maybe. Definition of legendary, mystical/magical and historical.

Joan of Arc.

[Finn Solomon]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110629011933/typemoon/images/d/d4/Shakespeare_i.png

Bishounen Shakespeare is startlingly attractive.

[Magatsu Izanagi]

Bishounen Shakespeare is startlingly attractive.
On the other hand, I have no idea what to think about shota Hans Christian Andersen (http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Caster_%28Fate/Extra_CCC%29):

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130510135344/typemoon/images/7/79/EnemyCasterCCC.png

[Sith_Happens]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110629011933/typemoon/images/d/d4/Shakespeare_i.png

Bishounen Shakespeare is startlingly attractive.

Now THAT is what a wizard looks like.

[thubby]

is there anything to keep a contractor from summoning superman?
they certainly have the qualities of the legends of old.

[Tiki Snakes]

is there anything to keep a contractor from summoning superman?
they certainly have the qualities of the legends of old.

Yep.
First you'd have to find an artifact Superman left behind, plus he'd have to be dead. So it would require him to secretly have been real and also die.

[Flickerdart]

It helps that the justification for this is "they accomplished it because their weapons were awesome, not them", and part of Häyhä's story is that his gun was fairly unimpressive.
The Mosin-Nagant three-line rifle was a fantastic weapon on service with the Russian army for over 50 years, and many snipers of considerable renown used it in WWII (it was replaced by the SVT after the war, because the SVT was better). Häyhä is famous for not using an optical scope, not for his weapon.

Also, in terms of his legendary significance...Soviet history books gloss over Talvisota completely (aside from flamethrower tanks, because hell yeah flamethrower tanks) and Western history doesn't exactly have a lot on it. So while he may indeed have been a terror to the few hundred people he killed, his scope (pun very much intended) is very limited compared to actually legendary people. Hell, Suvorov (the first guy to take troops through the Alps since Hannibal), Kutuzov (defeated Napoleon with a lousy army and a terrible liege) and Zhukov (led the Red Army until the capture of Berlin) were all way more significant and effective than Hayha ever was at actually accomplishing something in their wars, and they never fired a single shot themselves.

In terms of other famous warriors of renowned skill who actually managed to win the wars they fought, we have Alexander Nevsky (apocryphally, faced Teutonic knights on a frozen lake on purpose so the knights would fall in while lightly armoured Russians would stay on top), Dmitry Donskoy (the commander) and Alexander Peresvet (the champion) in the battle of Kulikovo Field that broke the Mongol Yoke over Russia, and Vasily Zaytsev (most famous sniper of the Battle of Stalingrad that used the same weapon as Hayha). All of these are well-known by regular people, unlike Hayha who is essentially only remembered outside Finland as a memetic badass on the net.

[thubby]

Yep.
First you'd have to find an artifact Superman left behind, plus he'd have to be dead. So it would require him to secretly have been real and also die.

servants don't have to be real figures. assassin from the first anime didn't actually exist.

[MLai]

servants don't have to be real figures. assassin from the first anime didn't actually exist.
That's another point where Nasu ****es me off greatly. Characters like Hercules and Medusa are supposed to have existed... and yet he has the gall to say Sasake Kojiro is fictional??? Exact historical accounts of Kojiro may be in dispute, but he was the most historical figure in the entire cast!

But anyways, according to Nasu's nonexistent set of non-rules... yeah go ahead summon Superman! :smallfurious:

[Frozen_Feet]

The belief that humans are rational is, itself, deeply irrational. I mean have you actually looked at how people think?

I would love to dwell on mythologization of real people, but the subject rams its head against forum restrictions faster than you can say "Pascal Boyer".

@Flickerdart: "Known outside their country of origin only as a memetic badass" describes most heroes ever. :smalltongue: Indeed, considering how notorious Häyhä is despite being from a small country that lost an obscure war, is a point in his favor. Give it a century or two, and people will tell he could see in the dark and fly.

[Prime32]

So does that mean someone could summon Chuck Norris? :smalltongue:

[Don Julio Anejo]

Damn, late to the discussion :smallfrown:

Ilya Muromets
An undeniably awesome idea for a servant, although he'd probably be better as a rider than a saber. A large part of his legend (and his mildly memetic nature in modern Russian comedy) is his trials and tribulations with his horse, which also serves as something of a life partner.

Fun fact: he was paralyzed in hands and feet until his 33rd birthday until wise men told him to get up and walk over to fetch them water (yes, it doesn't make sense). He then drank it, which made him insanely strong.

Another thing, is while his treasure sword (well, меч-кладенец) features in a few stories, it's more of a general element in Russian folklore as a "nice, maybe magical but still generic sword wielded by a hero or an important figure like a king." He's never described as a master swordsman - instead he usually uses a mace.

Jason Bourne - book version actually fulfills most of Nasu's criteria for a heroic spirit, assuming we lived in the 'verse. Let's see... World famous assassin that can be in two places at once (spoiler: because he doesn't actually kill his marks, rather evidence of him doing so is planted at any high-profile assassination). Fits with the assassin feature that they're not just one person that's summoned (spoiler: because most of the actual assassinations were performed by other people). Doesn't use guns. Can turn any random household object into a low-rank noble phantasm and doesn't rely on a weapon but is rather a weapon himself. Even has a good reason for wanting the grail.

The only problem is that he's too modern and not exactly mystical (and is not a Hashishin).

Who I'd choose:
D'Artagnan. While he'd be quite weaker than other possible sabers (Ilya Muromets, Arturia, Roland), he's one with both enough honor and chivalry to get along well with heroic types and pragmatic enough to use underhanded tactics when he needs to win. "Tell me, Monsignor, where could I get one of these amazing repeating muskets?" He's known to succeed in his mission despite literally the entire country working against him. To top it off, pretty agreeable as a person (if somewhat douchebaggy, but what heroic spirit isn't?). He's also easy to entertain, just point him towards the nearest dive bar filled with free-flowing wine, gambling and women with a loose set of morals.

Noble Phantasm: "All for one, one for all." D'Artagnan can summon Athos, Porthos and Aramis to fight side-by-side with him or act as independent agents. Each is a saber-class servant in his own right.

[Frozen_Feet]

So does that mean someone could summon Chuck Norris? :smalltongue:

You're late to the party, plus he's not dead yet. Wait a couple of years. :smalltongue:

[Elder Tsofu]

You're late to the party, plus he's not dead yet. Wait a couple of years. :smalltongue:

But he will be dead in the future. :smalltongue:

[Sotharsyl]

I'd go with either:

Marx (Caster)
Lenin (???)
Stalin (???)


a whole lot of belief,terror,cult of personality wrapped up around these guys and they have reach I'd bet some belief coming from every continent as opposed to some of the presidents who were picked who wouldn't be known outside of their country and it's neighbours.

I also would have chosen Napoleon but he seems to have been picked already.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Also, I think that from a storytelling perspective, Harry Dresden as caster would make for stark contrast in how similar, and yet how different he is to Kiritsugu. One is a jaded paranoid idealist, the other.... is a jaded, paranoid idealist. However, Harry sets out to be a hero and will generally save a single life even if it means a thousand will die down the road. Kiritsugu... is an almost military pragmatist and would volunteer to go back in time and kill Hitler, Ted Bundy or Osama Bin Laden when they're a cute baby frolicking in a field with daisies. Hell, he'd kill their mother if it meant they wouldn't be born.

And yet at the same time, they're in many ways similar in their combat pragmatism, idealism, self-sacrifice and outlook on life.

Kiritsugu would also get way too much teasing from Harry over copying his look and overcompensating with the size of his gun.

[Tiki Snakes]

servants don't have to be real figures. assassin from the first anime didn't actually exist.

If I recall correctly, didn't
Caster herself summon Assassin, though? In which case, it doesn't count because Caster's whole schtick is casting magic that is otherwise flat out impossible for modern mages.

[Traab]

And there's the fact that "winner has technological superiority" isn't a recent thing. Alexander the Great conquered the middle east using his and his dad's inventions, moreso than anything else.

And, yeah, Thor and Zeus did do impressive stuff. But snipers aren't made by their rifles. What rifle you have really only matters if you're fighting countersnipers. Alertness and analysis matter far more.

Ah, but a sniper cant snipe unless he has a sniper rifle. Thor, Zeus, neither one needs their weapon to be a badass legendary being. Thor could pick up your average asgardian sword and continue cleaving frost giants from crown to crotch without missing a beat. Zeus? Uh, I honestly dont recall many BATTLES he was involved in. Other than casting down the titans at least. Much of his legend has little to nothing to do with fighting or smiting, and more with seducing human women with as wide an assortment of forms as he could come up with. I suppose being a god he had a way of finding all these ludicrously kinky women. Bulls, geese, golden mist, etc.

[MLai]

While that's fine and dandy... the whole presumption that Sasake Kojiro "did not exist", while all the other fantastical heroes did, is outlandishly stupid. When reading FSN it is best for your own sanity to just ignore that bit of idiocy from Nasu.

Please stop saying Sasake Kojiro did not exist.:smallannoyed:

[Mx.Silver]

While that's fine and dandy... the whole presumption that Sasake Kojiro "did not exist", while all the other fantastical heroes did, is outlandishly stupid. When reading FSN it is best for your own sanity to just ignore that bit of idiocy from Nasu.


Or you could just assume the fate verse is an alternate version of our world rather than being an accurate depiction of human history. Since, you know, that's sort of what it is. Hence all the magic, King Arthur being a woman, Hassan-i Sabbah being a legacy identity, the series being largely set in a fictional city, etc.

Or you could just ignore that and carry on with the nerdrage. Whatever works for you :smallwink:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ah, but a sniper cant snipe unless he has a sniper rifle.

Simo Hayha could snipe people with fully automatic machine guns, hence his consideration for this topic.

Also I think declaring Kojiro a fictional character was an intentional nerd-snipe, especially since he's the only domestic hero in either Stay/Night or Zero, if you don't count Archer.

[Finn Solomon]

While that's fine and dandy... the whole presumption that Sasake Kojiro "did not exist", while all the other fantastical heroes did, is outlandishly stupid. When reading FSN it is best for your own sanity to just ignore that bit of idiocy from Nasu.

Please stop saying Sasake Kojiro did not exist.:smallannoyed:

Dude, chill out. Remember the MST3K mantra.

[warty goblin]

Simo Hayha could snipe people with fully automatic machine guns, hence his consideration for this topic.


Machine guns, particularly the heavier sort, make quite good sniper rifles. They're heavy and fire large caliber rounds. For many years in fact the record for longest range sniper kill was a shot fired from an M2 machine gun fitted with a sniper scope.

[Soras Teva Gee]

servants don't have to be real figures. assassin from the first anime didn't actually exist.

And consequently we must stress.... he was not a Heroic Spirit.

Kojiro was technically speaking a wraith, a sort of "memory" rather then an "actual" person. Namely that some nameless yahoo in history did develop Tsubame Gaeshi and that echo was summoned and put into a mockup of "Sasaki Kojiro" who (arbitrarily) is said to not actually exist.

That it happens at all can basically is directly attributed to Caster, who basically was on track to hijack the entire system and shouldn't have been able to do it at all.

However the unavoidable consequence that should not be ignored is that Kojiro is also the weakest Servant in the war. Seriously folks on open ground or in a role that doesn't make NP use prohibitively wasteful he'd have been dead. The only Servants able to spam ranged attacks (Archer and Caster) are ones he doesn't fight, this is not a coincidence.


Or you could just assume the fate verse is an alternate version of our world rather than being an accurate depiction of human history. Since, you know, that's sort of what it is. Hence all the magic, King Arthur being a woman, Hassan-i Sabbah being a legacy identity, the series being largely set in a fictional city, etc.

Or you could just ignore that and carry on with the nerdrage. Whatever works for you :smallwink:

What do you mean fictional city (http://punynari.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/real-life-fate-stay-night-locations-in-kobe/)? :smallbiggrin:


Simo Hayha could snipe people with fully automatic machine guns, hence his consideration for this topic.

Also I think declaring Kojiro a fictional character was an intentional nerd-snipe, especially since he's the only domestic hero in either Stay/Night or Zero, if you don't count Archer.

Yeah you can "snipe" folks with a pistol if the range is right. Its not that advisable but sniping is a tactic that can be used with any ranged attack.

And yeah I always took it that way too as well as the normal Nasu tendency to only make rules to break them. I seriously think his Origin would be "Exception" or something. Even his Reality Marble has one.

[Flickerdart]

@Flickerdart: "Known outside their country of origin only as a memetic badass" describes most heroes ever. :smalltongue: Indeed, considering how notorious Häyhä is despite being from a small country that lost an obscure war, is a point in his favor. Give it a century or two, and people will tell he could see in the dark and fly.
He's notorious on the Internet. So is Grumpy Cat.

[Elder Tsofu]

Ah, but a sniper cant snipe unless he has a sniper rifle. Thor, Zeus, neither one needs their weapon to be a badass legendary being. Thor could pick up your average asgardian sword and continue cleaving frost giants from crown to crotch without missing a beat. Zeus? Uh, I honestly dont recall many BATTLES he was involved in. Other than casting down the titans at least. Much of his legend has little to nothing to do with fighting or smiting, and more with seducing human women with as wide an assortment of forms as he could come up with. I suppose being a god he had a way of finding all these ludicrously kinky women. Bulls, geese, golden mist, etc.

They are also quite influential gods, which could usually be considered above mere heroes. If you want to compare the White Death use a range of the Greek or Norse semi-human heroes instead.

[Frozen_Feet]

He's notorious on the Internet.

And books on military records, but that's besides the point. :smalltongue: A medium is a medium, internet fame is not abritrarily less valuable than fame in hearsay or folk tradition. A widespread myth is a widespread myth, regardless of the means how it got widespread. There are a lot of war heroes who have never achieved such fame, on the net or otherwise.

[warty goblin]

And books on military records, but that's besides the point. :smalltongue: A medium is a medium, internet fame is not abritrarily less valuable than fame in hearsay or folk tradition. A widespread myth is a widespread myth, regardless of the means how it got widespread. There are a lot of war heroes who have never achieved such fame, on the net or otherwise.

Well, there is the bit where internet fame tends to be extremely short lived. I also suspect, thanks to the echo chamber nature of the web, widespread fame is very often not particularly widespread.

[Frozen_Feet]

I'll take comfort in knowing Häyhä still has a kickass song made out of him, internet or no internet. :smalltongue:

But enough about that. I do acknowledge Häyhä would not make a particularly powerful servant next to, say, Sunzi, but out of people who lived within last 100 years he'd be among my favorite picks, and would make for an interesting study for the concept of heroic spirit.

(Heroic spirit here meaning a person as defined by the myths told of them, and not considering Nasu's particular hang-ups about firearms or recent history.)

As noted, can't really get in-depth about modern myths as it would make me ram my head against forum rules barrier.

[MLai]

As noted, can't really get in-depth about modern myths as it would make me ram my head against forum rules barrier.
Really? We can't even talk about badasses in war here? :smallfrown:

[Nerd-o-rama]

The only appreciable difference between the internet and the grapevine of oral tradition that's existed since language was invented is its speed and lack of geographical barriers. It means we see a much wider variety of flash-in-the-pan, unenduring ideas than, say, an ancient Hellenic Greek would, but that doesn't mean that just because something is mentioned on the internet it's a memetic story with no value. The positive side of this thing is that legends and stories of different cultures can spread globally whereas they were less likely to before.

I'd have personally never heard of Simo Hayha or La Maupin without Badass of the Week, but that doesn't mean that no one would have heard or cared.

(Also I'd pick La Maupin but she'd totally make off with my wife).

[KnightDisciple]

Hektor of Troy.
An equal of Achilles, or nearly so.
An actually pretty decent guy no matter which version of the story (at least the ones I've seen/heard/read).
Plenty of regrets.

Not sure if he'd be Lancer, Rider, or Saber, though.

[MLai]

(Also I'd pick La Maupin but she'd totally make off with my wife).
You could totally salvage your marriage if you offered a threesome instead.

Edit: Hector is a real nice guy, but we don't nice guys we need guys who don't get their ass kicked. Achilles kicked everyone's asses, it wasn't even a contest. Brad Pitt's movie made Hector look good in a fight so the choreographer would have something to do and Bana wouldn't sulk.

[KnightDisciple]

You could totally salvage your marriage if you offered a threesome instead.

Edit: Hector is a real nice guy, but we don't nice guys we need guys who don't get their ass kicked. Achilles kicked everyone's asses, it wasn't even a contest. Brad Pitt's movie made Hector look good in a fight so the choreographer would have something to do and Bana wouldn't sulk.
I'm pretty sure I've not heard of Hector not kicking the asses of everyone besides Achilles (and that's a near thing).

[warty goblin]

Hektor of Troy.
An equal of Achilles, or nearly so.
An actually pretty decent guy no matter which version of the story (at least the ones I've seen/heard/read).
Plenty of regrets.

Not sure if he'd be Lancer, Rider, or Saber, though.
Hector's a hard case to figure. He's much easier to make into a conventionally appealing character to a modern audience than Achilles, but this takes some modification. It's made pretty clear he's after glory just as much as anybody else at Troy; that is he isn't out there just fighting for his city but also for the loot and respect brought by fighting. He may have 'learned to be valiant' as he says in Book 6, but it's a lesson he's learned very well. Possibly to the point of a bit of vainglory on his own behalf.

Which, by the standards under which the Iliad operates, does not make him a bad dude. Killing guys and stripping their corpses naked was absolutely A-OK. Trying to feed said corpses to the dogs might by toeing the line a bit, but isn't really that far out there. But by modern standards he's not really the nice family oriented patriot it's easy to make him into.

(Of course by the Iliad's standards, we're all cowards and weaklings probably barely worth the effort to enslave, so there's that.)


Edit: Hector is a real nice guy, but we don't nice guys we need guys who don't get their ass kicked. Achilles kicked everyone's asses, it wasn't even a contest. Brad Pitt's movie made Hector look good in a fight so the choreographer would have something to do and Bana wouldn't sulk.
Prior to Achilles' return though, Hector was doing a quite tolerable job of beating the ever-loving snot out of the Greeks. With a lot of divine assistance to be sure, but the only guy in the Iliad who does squat without a deity on their side is Ajax.

[ChaosLord29]

Prior to Achilles' return though, Hector was doing a quite tolerable job of beating the ever-loving snot out of the Greeks. With a lot of divine assistance to be sure, but the only guy in the Iliad who does squat without a deity on their side is Ajax.

Would that make Ajax the next top choice for historical figure?

Personally, I'd like Philip Sheridan, assuming he's not too modern a figure.

[MLai]

Prior to Achilles' return though, Hector was doing a quite tolerable job of beating the ever-loving snot out of the Greeks. With a lot of divine assistance to be sure, but the only guy in the Iliad who does squat without a deity on their side is Ajax.
I don't mean that Hector can't fight. But once Achilles comes along, doesn't matter what you were doing prior and who your daddy is, you became his b****. Everybody became his b****. Ares' little girl became his b**** too (though that's after Homer).

Homer doesn't even bother dressing it up a little for tension, and he could if he wanted to cuz he did it for other fights. But Achilles just steamrolls all his little b****es.

[KnightDisciple]

I don't mean that Hector can't fight. But once Achilles comes along, doesn't matter what you were doing prior and who your daddy is, you became his b****. Everybody became his b****. Ares' little girl became his b**** too (though that's after Homer).

Homer doesn't even bother dressing it up a little for tension, and he could if he wanted to cuz he did it for other fights. But Achilles just steamrolls all his little b****es.

Except that basically loops back to "which version do you draw on for the Servant".

I mean, I just read a trilogy of books by David Gemmel wherein Achilles and Hektor were basically Unstoppable Force and Immovable Object.

Their fight near the end lasted at least an hour, if not a couple hours.

[warty goblin]

Except that basically loops back to "which version do you draw on for the Servant".

I mean, I just read a trilogy of books by David Gemmel wherein Achilles and Hektor were basically Unstoppable Force and Immovable Object.

Their fight near the end lasted at least an hour, if not a couple hours.
The actual combat in the Iliad lasts for two spear throws and one spear thrust. There's a lot of other things that happen - Hector's flight around the walls of Troy, the frequent debate and intervention of the gods, the two combatants talking at each other - but the bronze on bronze battle lasts essentially no time. Which I've always rather liked about it. At that point the Iliad is basically about inevitability, so the fight really is perfunctory.

[Mx.Silver]

Hektor of Troy.
An equal of Achilles, or nearly so.
An actually pretty decent guy no matter which version of the story (at least the ones I've seen/heard/read).
Plenty of regrets.

Not sure if he'd be Lancer, Rider, or Saber, though.

I'd be inclined to go with Lancer (if only because that's a much harder category to fill than the other two).


He'd be fine as a summon. 'Loses to Achilles' isn't really much of a weakness, considering Achilles in the fate verse is basically invulnerable to begin with.

[MLai]

He'd be fine as a summon. 'Loses to Achilles' isn't really much of a weakness, considering Achilles in the fate verse is basically invulnerable to begin with.
You just better hope nobody summons Achilles then. :smallamused:

[ArlEammon]

Hmm is Jiang Ziya in Fate Stay Night?

[Soras Teva Gee]

You just better hope nobody summons Achilles then. :smallamused:

One word: "Rematch"

Ostensibly Achilles worst nightmare would be for a Servant knowing him personally to be summoned since he's one of the few heroes with an actual serious reason to conceal his identity. Because even if it wasn't included in the little Grail knowledge of heroes package, a Master would know all about Achilles' Heel.

...Which incidentally Apocrypha did so we'll see how that ends up rolling...

Though of course simply knowing isn't the same as actually accomplishing the deed. Presumably it would be decisive for anyone able to give Achilles a good fight in the first place.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

All this talk of Internet fame amuses me with the idea (if you could somehow summon still-living Servants) of Psy as a Heroic Servant.

[ChaosLord29]

All this talk of Internet fame amuses me with the idea (if you could somehow summon still-living Servants) of Psy as a Heroic Servant.

Well . . .

There is a servant summoned from the future, so I guess technically it's possible.

[thubby]

If I recall correctly, didn't
Caster herself summon Assassin, though? In which case, it doesn't count because Caster's whole schtick is casting magic that is otherwise flat out impossible for modern mages.

her magecraft was vastly more powerful than modern magi, but it's still magecraft, it follows the same rules.

magecraft, as far as i can tell, is like cheating at physics, where magic is actually miraculous.

getting solid hydrogen=magecraft
wildly impractical, but still physically possible.

moving beyond light speed=magic
not possible in premise.

[Soras Teva Gee]

her magecraft was vastly more powerful than modern magi, but it's still magecraft, it follows the same rules.

magecraft, as far as i can tell, is like cheating at physics, where magic is actually miraculous.

getting solid hydrogen=magecraft
wildly impractical, but still physically possible.

moving beyond light speed=magic
not possible in premise.


Its not really a spoiler when its nearly a decade old and is just a side detail. However for ordinary magecraft you have the gist of it. Though a siginificant distinction is that magi don't seem to need to use pseudo-scientific methods as long as the result is still modestly similar to something that could do that. (And plenty of stuff with spirits is very debatably of any connection, but spirits are "natural" in Nasuverse)

Now Caster plays the line quite close, since in her days "Magic" in the modern sense was supposedly still "possible" since the rules of reality have shifted since. Like how she can teleport which is noted to be impossible for magi today, but might just fall short because of wormholes and such. And lots of stuff is said to be "close to" or some such.

Though on being beyond science the Second Magic poses a problem since its something of a sci-fi concept though so it might become conceptually deprecated one day. Zel's still awesome though.

The Fifth.... oh heck yeah now that's Impossible with a capital I.

[MLai]

What are these Nasusian Laws of Magic?

[thubby]

What are these Nasusian Laws of Magic?

basically, everyone is a walking battery. those who use either mana floating freely or that within themselves can perform magecraft.

magecraft is like the worlds best power converter. it can do anything that can be done through mundane usage of time and energy. so you could move yourself up a flight of stairs, superheat the air in front of you, or convert raw energy into matter.

even something like nuclear fusion would be possible because we (humanity) know that it can be done. magecraft just skips the nuclear reactor step and gets right to results.

[Sith_Happens]

What are these Nasusian Laws of Magic?

1. Magic may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. Magic must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. Magic must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

...Wait.:smallconfused:


basically, everyone is a walking battery. those who use either mana floating freely or that within themselves can perform magecraft.

magecraft is like the worlds best power converter. it can do anything that can be done through mundane usage of time and energy. so you could move yourself up a flight of stairs, superheat the air in front of you, or convert raw energy into matter.

even something like nuclear fusion would be possible because we (humanity) know that it can be done. magecraft just skips the nuclear reactor step and gets right to results.

That sounds exactly like Inheritance Cycle magic (or maybe not, I never read past Eldest).

[MLai]

LOL proper Nasu-verse fans would kill u jokers if there were any here.
I know the Laws of Magic are actual specific superpowers, like...
1. The magic to raise the dead.
2. The magic to time travel.
etc etc.

Basically super-spells which only True Magic can do.
(I'm not saying those above are actual laws. But they're things like that.)

[Forum Explorer]

Yep.
First you'd have to find an artifact Superman left behind, plus he'd have to be dead. So it would require him to secretly have been real and also die.

I don't think you need an artifact to summon a hero, but you need one to summon a specific hero. If you are just after a hero it's luck of the draw. Though I've got a theory that it actually summons a hero that relates to the summoner in some way.



So how many Fate Stay Night things are there? I know of Fate Stay Night and Fate/Zero, as well as some weird version where Rin was a bounty hunter of some kind but that's all.

[MLai]

So how many Fate Stay Night things are there? I know of Fate Stay Night and Fate/Zero, as well as some weird version where Rin was a bounty hunter of some kind but that's all.
In terms of stories...

Fate Stay Night the visual novel on PC and PS2 (Fate, Unlimited Blade Works, Heaven's Feel).
Fate has an anime TV series. UBW has an anime movie. HF is recently announced to be getting an anime telling in some format (hopefully a graphic TV series like FZ).

Fate Hollow Ataraxia the visual novel on PC.

Fate Zero the light novel.
Also has an anime TV series.

Carnival Phantasm the comedic non-canon anime TV series.

A f***-ton of Fate-verse games... 2D fighting game, 3D fighting games, RPGs...

[Nerd-o-rama]

Fate/Extra is probably the most plot-heavy of the video game spinoffs, taking place inside a Matrix ripoff in an alternate universe (on the moon, because Nasu) and being more of an RPG set during a fighting tournament than a VN or a fighting game.

Also, what you guys are thinking about are the five True Magics, theoretical or done by singularly gifted Magicians, as opposed to run-of-the-mill Mages that just cheat at physics.

Summarized from the Type-Moon Wiki:

The First Magic: Unnamed and very confusing. Has something to do with giving "nothingness" a material form.
The Second Magic: Kaleidoscope or Zelretch. Moving between and influencing parallel universes, and the basis for any dimensional travel shenanigans.
The Third Magic: Heaven's Feel. Giving the soul a material form. This is the actual goal of the Grail War, which each of the founding families wanted for a different reason.
The Fourth Magic: Completely unknown, yet people are still pretty certain of its existence.
The Fifth Magic: Magic Blue. Time travel.

The "rules" of magic in the Nasuverse aren't entirely dissimilar to Mage: The Ascension as far as I can tell, with every mage having a particular arbitrary paradigm and speciality, except instead of Paradox, you just have to expend more and more mana the more you bend the laws of physics, and you cannot break them. How much mana you have access to and can use at a time is down to training, physical capability, and environment.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Describing the 5th as Time Travel has now been seen to be a bit limited.

Time Control would seem more on point.

With the rejection reversing of a single persons own time use to bring them back from the dead.

[thubby]

I don't think you need an artifact to summon a hero, but you need one to summon a specific hero. If you are just after a hero it's luck of the draw. Though I've got a theory that it actually summons a hero that relates to the summoner in some way.



So how many Fate Stay Night things are there? I know of Fate Stay Night and Fate/Zero, as well as some weird version where Rin was a bounty hunter of some kind but that's all.

well assassin is summoned with the very name "assassin"
i would be unsurprised if you could summon supes with a comic book or some krypton

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Of course, the thread is still called "which historical figure..." :smalltongue:

[Don Julio Anejo]

well assassin is summoned with the very name "assassin"
i would be unsurprised if you could summon supes with a comic book or some krypton
You'd be more likely to (in the best case scenario) summon Jerry Siegel, and in the worst case scenario, Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

Worst Holy Grail War ever.

[Soras Teva Gee]

You'd be more likely to (in the best case scenario) summon Jerry Siegel, and in the worst case scenario, Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons.

As opposed to Joe Shuster?

I think though the best case scenario would be for this to be a novel way for anyone other then Rin to summon Archer. Think about it.

Next best would be a dice roll on which of Superman's many precedents you might obtain that fit the system.

The closest you might get is via arbirtrary Nasuverse BS coming to your aide and giving you someone that "tried to become" Superman and actually existed. Thus have some some fake mock-up shoved in a Superman suit a la Kojiro. Maybe something mid ranked (at best) with the outline of the powers... or maybe like a powerless nobody who thinks he's from Krypton.

Its simply stunning how tremendously incompatible Superman is with the Nasuverse and how many reasons you are never going to "get" him.

Even the Grail's habit of giving out booby prizes (because nobody is going to write a failed summoning) isn't going to kowtow to such primitive powergaming.

[Nerd-o-rama]

As opposed to Joe Shuster?

I think though the best case scenario would be for this to be a novel way for anyone other then Rin to summon Archer. Think about it.

Next best would be a dice roll on which of Superman's many precedents you might obtain that fit the system.

The closest you might get is via arbirtrary Nasuverse BS coming to your aide and giving you someone that "tried to become" Superman and actually existed. Thus have some some fake mock-up shoved in a Superman suit a la Kojiro. Maybe something mid ranked (at best) with the outline of the powers... or maybe like a powerless nobody who thinks he's from Krypton.

Its simply stunning how tremendously incompatible Superman is with the Nasuverse and how many reasons you are never going to "get" him.

Even the Grail's habit of giving out booby prizes (because nobody is going to write a failed summoning) isn't going to kowtow to such primitive powergaming.

There was also at least one "Superman" who was some other guy with a jetpack and heat-ray goggles, so that particular result seems even more likely. Also there was that Earth-2 Clark Kent, I think...I don't really follow Superman.

Also Archer is more likely to come from a tokusatsu DVD, I think. His "ally of justice" spiel seems to come more from live action superheroes than their comic book antecedents.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Also Archer is more likely to come from a tokusatsu DVD, I think. His "ally of justice" spiel seems to come more from live action superheroes than their comic book antecedents.

You say that like they would automatically be all that different (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPX-FX0KStE).

Not that I disagree on which would be the strictly better choice, but this is a matter simply of degree then of nature.

[Nerd-o-rama]

You say that like they would automatically be all that different (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPX-FX0KStE).

Not that I disagree on which would be the strictly better choice, but this is a matter simply of degree then of nature.

As long as the Supaidaaman OP gets linked, my purpose here is accomplished.

[Slayn82]

You asked for Superman.

You got Friedrich Nietzche (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche). Congratulations!



The "rules" of magic in the Nasuverse aren't entirely dissimilar to Mage: The Ascension as far as I can tell, with every mage having a particular arbitrary paradigm and speciality, except instead of Paradox, you just have to expend more and more mana the more you bend the laws of physics, and you cannot break them. How much mana you have access to and can use at a time is down to training, physical capability, and environment.

Well, Isaac Newton laughs at your feeble efforts to escape his Newtonian Paradigm, while administering to you a compreensive lesson on projectile motion and engineering. He probably could deal with eletricity and magnetism, and even relativity would be all right up on his alley, as long you don't bring quantum mechanics to his face. Also, if Shakespeare can pull it of being a Servant, well, he died just 25 years before Newton was born. Between those two, England had what Civ players usualy call a Golden Age. But historians call that period as the Age of Enlightement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enlightenment)

And for those that believe he would not be good at a confrontation, well, Newton was also a master of intrigue, more or less being the first guy to create a sistematic method of police work, to deal with all the massive counterfeiting that used to plague Britain on his time. So, yes, he fought crime too, as the Warden of the Royal Mint.

One of the inscriptions in his memorial is “If you doubt that such a man could exist, this monument bears witness”. And here is his coat of arms:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LujajN49gZE/URUeWNVAQiI/AAAAAAAABzA/e7Wtj4j3bRI/s320/sirnewt3.jpg

Best servant ever. I would summon him just to wish to have him alive again.

[Mx.Silver]

Best servant ever.

Especially when you consider his ability to command an army of flying castles and fantasy mecha
Nevermind, wrong anime.
Still a pretty good summon though.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Best servant ever. I would summon him just to wish to have him alive again.

You probably imagining something like he has a magical railgun kinetic kill weapon or something along that kinda line right? Screwing around with physics on the idea he invented them so he can control them right?

That's nice and all but its Mystery is terribly low. Seriously he just gives sets something on a vector, well hell a muggle human can do that. Its a very normal result what does that mean?

Well it all means its a low rank attack.

Servants are a Mystery that can only be suppressed by a greater Mystery. Newtonian Physics, not mysterious at all, Gaia will barely interfere with crushing the parodox unless you set up some perpetual motion machine that would need prana to keep going. Hardly as remarkable as the supremely basic magecraft of creating crap out of nothing, which Gaia gets real offended by and crushes the projection so it isn't much use.

Oh it will all still work and everything. Most of it could be covered by your Caster's Alchemy and/or Magecraft ranks. Certainly any Noble Phantasm along those lines would be like C rank. Powering it up would only increase the scale, in a clash it would loose to everything.

If you got real lucky he might have a Noble Phantasm with the ability to counter other Noble Phanstasm (you know asserting reality thus disallowing fantasy) but as Caster that's not going to be worth that much.

If for some reason it didn't cancel his own abilities (since Newton can be said to have failed as a magus by contributing so strongly to science it would literally work against him) he might beat a Berserker before it smashed his face in by being really lucky. Since well you wouldn't see Assassin and there's well Magic Resistance. And your only meaningful weapon would be well... using magic because you're Caster.

Worst case would be Saber or Joan who'd be completely invincible.