Death Ward

[Randomocity132]

If it prevents death from save-or-die spells, does it also prevent the damage they would take if they made their save?

Phantasmal Killer, Destruction, Finger of Death, etc?

[Verditude]

Death Ward has no effect on Phantasmal Killer, which lacks the [Death] tag. If the spell has that tag, the warded creature is immune to it, which means they don't suffer either the primary or the secondary effects, and don't need to make saves.

[Splendor]

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects (such as from inflict spells or chill touch). - PHB 217

Protects from more than just spells with the 'Death' descriptor. It protects against energy drain and any spells that deals negative energy damage as well. It also protects against 'magical death effects', like a Bodak's death gaze.

[Drachasor]

I'd say that "immunity" pretty clearly means that they also suffer no partial effects. No need to roll a saving throw because either way the spell does nothing.

Again, this doesn't include all Save or Die spells, only certain kinds. Disintegrate, for instance, is not affected by Death Ward. As noted, Death Ward also protects against some effects that aren't Save or Dies as well.

[TuggyNE]

Drachasor et al have already answered correctly, so I will justify my presence in the thread by noting a bit of trivia: death ward does not protect against negative levels from opposed-alignment weapons/armor, such as an unholy sword, since these are neither energy drain, nor negative energy-based.

[Lafaellar]

For me "magical death effects" means any ability that states "target dies" explicitly that is magical in nature. So while not being immune to the phantasmal killer spell itself you are immune against the effect that kills you.
Notice that effects that result in dead are not subject to this.
While being disintegrated will certainly mean you are dead, it's not a magical death effect since the effect is not instant death but disintegration.

Why does this make sense?
In my imagination a Death effect is a magical effect that severs the soul from the body and that is what the death ward protects against. It does not protect your body from being turned to dust.
So why does it protect from a phantasmal killer?
Well in my imagination the phantasmal killer tries to circumvent your body by directly attacking your soul with a phantasm and that is what the death ward protects you from. In my world the phantasmal killer always is some kind of Grim Reaper that tries to steal your life from you, a creature made of pure nightmare that tries to abduct your soul.

It might be that this is a far stretched interpretation of the phantasmal killer but it is the interpretation that is best to describe what happens in my opinion and fits to the rules.

[Alex12]

Interesting that it specifies "death spells and magical death effects"
If you had a nonmagical death effect (psionic, perhaps? At least if you don't have transparency) that didn't run on negative energy, then it wouldn't protect you.

[sleepyphoenixx]

It protects from spells with the [Death] descriptor. Phantasmal Killer is [Fear],[Mind-Affecting] so it's not covered by Death Ward anymore than Disintigrate or Fireball.
There are a few more SoD spells that are not prevented by Death Ward. Mummify, Weird, Flesh to Stone/Salt/Ice, Cast in Stone and Frostfell are some examples.

[Glimbur]

Interesting that it specifies "death spells and magical death effects"
If you had a nonmagical death effect (psionic, perhaps? At least if you don't have transparency) that didn't run on negative energy, then it wouldn't protect you.

Nonmagical death effect? Sounds like an Assassin's death attack to me. Interesting find.

[Chronos]

An assassin's death attack is never stated to be a death effect, though. Nor, actually, is it ever said to be nonmagical (it's not listed as either (ex) nor (su)).

Quoth Lafaellar:

For me "magical death effects" means any ability that states "target dies" explicitly that is magical in nature.
For the game rules, though, "magical death effects" means any ability that's listed as a death effect (which is done by the word [death] in the description). Would you argue that Protection from Fire should protect against Disintegrate, because "a fire effect is any effect that reduces things to ash"? How do you know which spells are actually fire spells? The same way: They say [fire] in the first line.

[Deophaun]

Would you argue that Protection from Fire should protect against Disintegrate, because "a fire effect is any effect that reduces things to ash"?
Disintigrate reduces things to dust, not ash.

[137beth]

For me "magical death effects" means any ability that states "target dies" explicitly that is magical in nature. So while not being immune to the phantasmal killer spell itself you are immune against the effect that kills you.
Notice that effects that result in dead are not subject to this.
While being disintegrated will certainly mean you are dead, it's not a magical death effect since the effect is not instant death but disintegration.

Why does this make sense?
In my imagination a Death effect is a magical effect that severs the soul from the body and that is what the death ward protects against. It does not protect your body from being turned to dust.
So why does it protect from a phantasmal killer?
Well in my imagination the phantasmal killer tries to circumvent your body by directly attacking your soul with a phantasm and that is what the death ward protects you from. In my world the phantasmal killer always is some kind of Grim Reaper that tries to steal your life from you, a creature made of pure nightmare that tries to abduct your soul.

It might be that this is a far stretched interpretation of the phantasmal killer but it is the interpretation that is best to describe what happens in my opinion and fits to the rules.

Sounds reasonable--it sounds like a case of certain spells that should have the [death] descriptor, don't. Just like certain abilities that should be (Su) are instead listed as (Ex) due to the writers not thinking clearly (I'm looking at you, Warforged), or certain spells getting marked [Evil] for no apparent reason (Deathwatch, or Create Undead).
But yea, I think by strict RAW, Death Ward does not do anything against Phantasmal Killer.

[Ravens_cry]

Interesting that it specifies "death spells and magical death effects"
If you had a nonmagical death effect (psionic, perhaps? At least if you don't have transparency) that didn't run on negative energy, then it wouldn't protect you.
Or the Assassin's Death Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm#deathAttack) for that matter.

[Randomocity132]

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

This spell doesn’t remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level.

Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal.

........ok.

In the spell description, it hyperlinks "death effects" to:



Death Attacks

In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.

Raise dead doesn’t work on someone killed by a death attack.
Death attacks slay instantly. A victim cannot be made stable and thereby kept alive.
In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how she died, has -10 hit points.
The spell death ward protects a character against these attacks.


So I'm pretty sure this includes Phantasmal Killer, Destruction, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Slay Living, Bodak glares, magical drown effects, etc.

Not disintegrate, since that merely does damage and then has some fluff about people who die from the damage.

But my question is still: For the spells that this protects against, they usually have the secondary effect that even if the target makes their save, they take an amount of damage. My understanding is that it would protect against the "save-or-die" effect in the spell, but not necessarily the damage portion, since the damage portion isn't save-or-die.

[angry_bear]

........ok.

In the spell description, it hyperlinks "death effects" to:



So I'm pretty sure this includes Phantasmal Killer, Destruction, Wail of the Banshee, Weird, Slay Living, Bodak glares, magical drown effects, etc.

Not disintegrate, since that merely does damage and then has some fluff about people who die from the damage.

But my question is still: For the spells that this protects against, they usually have the secondary effect that even if the target makes their save, they take an amount of damage. My understanding is that it would protect against the "save-or-die" effect in the spell, but not necessarily the damage portion, since the damage portion isn't save-or-die.

Depends on what the type of damage it's listed as. If it's negative energy, then Death Ward protects the subject. If it's a non specified energy type, the way Disintegrate is; then the subject takes the damage.

[Chronos]

That's a description of death effects, not a definition of them. Note the "In most cases...". There's nothing in there that implies that all things that kill without doing damage are death effects, nor that every death effect must always kill things.

If you're targeted by Destruction, and make your save, but are still killed by the damage, then you're harder to resurrect, since the damage was still a death effect, and so you were killed by a death effect. If you have Death Ward up, regardless of the save, you're immune to the damage, because it's still a death effect.

[Lafaellar]

If a spell has the [Death] tag the Death Ward renders you completely immune to the spell itself, so it also negates the damage.
If a spell counts as a magical death effect, the Death Ward only protects against the part that kills you but not the spell itself.

That's how I read it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Phantasmal Killer lacks the [death] tag and is in no way associated with negative energy. Death Ward should have no effect.

[137beth]

Phantasmal Killer lacks the [death] tag and is in no way associated with negative energy. Death Ward should have no effect.

But is it a Magical Death Effect?

[sleepyphoenixx]

But is it a Magical Death Effect?

No, it's a mind-affecting fear effect. That just happens to kill you.

[137beth]

No, it's a mind-affecting fear effect. That just happens to kill you.

The issue appears to be that "magical death effect" is not defined anywhere in the rules....

[sleepyphoenixx]

The issue appears to be that "magical death effect" is not defined anywhere in the rules....

That's what the [Death] descriptor is for. Monsters usually have something like "this is a death effect" in the ability description.

[Lafaellar]

If a phantasmal killer isn't a death effect, what is a death effect without having the Death Tag in the spell description?

[Alex12]

If a phantasmal killer isn't a death effect, what is a death effect without having the Death Tag in the spell description?

Something that isn't a spell.
For example, just off the top of my head, the granted power of the Death domain.

[sleepyphoenixx]

If a phantasmal killer isn't a death effect, what is a death effect without having the Death Tag in the spell description?

A Bodaks Death Gaze is an example of a death effect.

[Douglas]

For me "magical death effects" means any ability that states "target dies" explicitly that is magical in nature. So while not being immune to the phantasmal killer spell itself you are immune against the effect that kills you.
Notice that effects that result in dead are not subject to this.
While being disintegrated will certainly mean you are dead, it's not a magical death effect since the effect is not instant death but disintegration.

Why does this make sense?
In my imagination a Death effect is a magical effect that severs the soul from the body and that is what the death ward protects against. It does not protect your body from being turned to dust.
So why does it protect from a phantasmal killer?
Well in my imagination the phantasmal killer tries to circumvent your body by directly attacking your soul with a phantasm and that is what the death ward protects you from. In my world the phantasmal killer always is some kind of Grim Reaper that tries to steal your life from you, a creature made of pure nightmare that tries to abduct your soul.

It might be that this is a far stretched interpretation of the phantasmal killer but it is the interpretation that is best to describe what happens in my opinion and fits to the rules.
Phantasmal Killer has nothing to do with the target's soul. Phantasmal Killer kills you by scaring you to death - it attacks through the mind, giving you a panic attack so severe your heart stops beating and your brain shuts down. Thus, it has the mind-affecting descriptor but not the death descriptor. It is blocked by Mind Blank, but not by Death Ward.

Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Destruction fit the "attacking the soul" fluff you describe here much better, and each of them does have the death descriptor.

For another example of a save-or-die that is not a death effect, take Implosion. It does not directly kill, but rather causes your body to implode, which usually kills you as a consequence.

[Alex12]

Phantasmal Killer has nothing to do with the target's soul. Phantasmal Killer kills you by scaring you to death - it attacks through the mind, giving you a panic attack so severe your heart stops beating and your brain shuts down. Thus, it has the mind-affecting descriptor but not the death descriptor. It is blocked by Mind Blank, but not by Death Ward.

Slay Living, Finger of Death, and Destruction fit the "attacking the soul" fluff you describe here much better, and each of them does have the death descriptor.

For another example of a save-or-die that is not a death effect, take Implosion. It does not directly kill, but rather causes your body to implode, which usually kills you as a consequence.

Let's get really crazy, here. Say I'm playing a Dvati character (which, in fact, I am, but that's neither here nor there)
Obviously, if someone nails one of my two bodies with a Disintegrate, or an Implosion, and I fail the save, that body is dead, but the other body is still around (though suffering increasing penalties until death or resurrection)
Phantasmal Killer, being mind-affecting, would hit both bodies.
Finger of Death, however...
Just throwing it out there.

[TuggyNE]

Let's get really crazy, here. Say I'm playing a Dvati character (which, in fact, I am, but that's neither here nor there)

So, you're playing a Dvati with displacement active? :smalltongue:


Obviously, if someone nails one of my two bodies with a Disintegrate, or an Implosion, and I fail the save, that body is dead, but the other body is still around (though suffering increasing penalties until death or resurrection)
Phantasmal Killer, being mind-affecting, would hit both bodies.
Finger of Death, however...
Just throwing it out there.

Finger of death would, I believe, kill both bodies, since IIRC Dvati count as a single creature.

[Randomocity132]

That's a description of death effects, not a definition of them. Note the "In most cases...". There's nothing in there that implies that all things that kill without doing damage are death effects, nor that every death effect must always kill things.

If you're targeted by Destruction, and make your save, but are still killed by the damage, then you're harder to resurrect, since the damage was still a death effect, and so you were killed by a death effect. If you have Death Ward up, regardless of the save, you're immune to the damage, because it's still a death effect.

You mis-applied that phrasing. Again: In most cases, a death attack allows the victim a Fortitude save to avoid the affect, but if the save fails, the character dies instantly.

It says that in most cases, things described as "death attacks" are "fort save or die" but that not all are "fort save or die", meaning that some might be will saves or offer no save.

Destruction has 2 parts. The death effect, and the damage. You won't be instantly slain and have your body destroyed if you make your save. You'll just take the damage. If that damage kills you, you were killed by damage, not the instant death effect.


Depends on what the type of damage it's listed as. If it's negative energy, then Death Ward protects the subject. If it's a non specified energy type, the way Disintegrate is; then the subject takes the damage.

No.

"The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects."

It does NOT have to be negative energy for Death Ward to protect it. Disintegrate is NEVER a death effect, though it will make it harder to resurrect them. Finger of Death is. Disintegrate is not.


Phantasmal Killer lacks the [death] tag and is in no way associated with negative energy. Death Ward should have no effect.

Again. It does not have to be a [Death] spell. The Bodak's glare is an example of this. Phantasmal Killer instantly kills the target if they fail their save. This is why the description says "usually fort or die", because here's an example of it offering a "will and fort or die".

Also, it does NOT have to be a negative energy effect. It protects against negative energy effects such as level drains IN ADDITION to any other spell that instantly slays the target.

[TuggyNE]

Destruction has 2 parts. The death effect, and the damage. You won't be instantly slain and have your body destroyed if you make your save. You'll just take the damage. If that damage kills you, you were killed by damage, not the instant death effect.

The whole spell is a [death] effect. It's not separable that way.


Again. It does not have to be a [Death] spell. The Bodak's glare is an example of this. Phantasmal Killer instantly kills the target if they fail their save. This is why the description says "usually fort or die", because here's an example of it offering a "will and fort or die".

The bodak's glare is an example of a type of special ability known as a death attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks), not a [death] spell; as such, it's blocked by death ward under a different provision.

Phantasmal killer fits none of the provisions for death ward, and is not blocked.


Also, it does NOT have to be a negative energy effect. It protects against negative energy effects such as level drains IN ADDITION to any other spell that instantly slays the target.

Death ward does not say it blocks save-or-dies, and in fact it doesn't; most save-or-dies, though, are blocked by the specific provisions (any [death] spell, any magical/supernatural death effect, any negative energy effect, and energy drain special attacks). However, some spells (or effects) instantly kill targets without being blocked. Implosion, for example.
Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal.

[Randomocity132]

The whole spell is a [death] effect. It's not separable that way.



The bodak's glare is an example of a type of special ability known as a death attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#deathAttacks), not a [death] spell; as such, it's blocked by death ward under a different provision.

Phantasmal killer fits none of the provisions for death ward, and is not blocked.



Death ward does not say it blocks save-or-dies, and in fact it doesn't; most save-or-dies, though, are blocked by the specific provisions (any [death] spell, any magical/supernatural death effect, any negative energy effect, and energy drain special attacks). However, some spells (or effects) instantly kill targets without being blocked. Implosion, for example.

Alright, well putting aside whether certain spells are actually "death effects" for a moment, for those that definitely DO count, but offer damage if the target makes their save, do they take the damage if they have Death Ward, like from Finger of Death?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Alright, well putting aside whether certain spells are actually "death effects" for a moment, for those that definitely DO count, but offer damage if the target makes their save, do they take the damage if they have Death Ward, like from Finger of Death?

Well the first line of Death Ward says immune to all "Death spells"

Finger of Death, Destruction and Slay Living all have the death descriptor.(while Implosion, Phantasmal Killer and Weird do not). So for those spells with the death descriptor they would certainly be immune to the damage because they are immune to the spell.

The descriptors tell us how spells interact with other effects. If a spell has the death descriptor then death ward grants immunity to the whole spell.

[Alex12]

Finger of death would, I believe, kill both bodies, since IIRC Dvati count as a single creature.

Actually, they don't. Spells aren't shared unless they've got a range of "you" or are mind-affecting. So Phantasmal Killer would kill both twins, but you couldn't get around a Death Ward on one twin by hitting the other with a death effect (not immediately, anyway, though if you kill one twin, the other isn't going to last very long)