the Order is pretty lucky that Tarquin just showed up again

[gallagher]

for several reasons:
1) Tarquin already expressed his intent to help Elan succeed in stopping Xykon. That isnt likely to have changed, as Xykon and Redcloak pose a severe threat to Tarquin's plans.

2) Tarquin has at least one spellcaster with him capable of large-scale extradimensional travel, which the Order lacks even when V is with them

3) The Order is going to have a tough time against Team Evil anyway, and Tarquin brought an army. They are definitely strong enough with Tarquin's help to secure and defend the final gate

4) Tarquin wants control of the gate, which isnt necessarily a bad thing. He has lots of resources at his disposal that can protect the gate from further danger, and hasnt shown that he wishes to use the gate. Even if he could use it, there isnt much that he can use it for. Sure his legacy would be enhanced if he used it to bargain for god status or something, but his goal of unifying his continent under a centralized governing body doesnt get closer to being accomplished by controlling a gate outside his territory.

So in sum, Tarquin has shown he wishes to help Elan, has a personal interest in defeating Xykon, and cant accomplish much by using the gate to his own end.

Edits in light of 912:

1-3 still seem on target. He has offered his help once again to help Elan. His psion can still get them there faster than any other method, though I guess Tarquin might have a scroll or magic item for them as well. 4 has changed because Tarquin expressed the idea that when villains try to oppose villains directly, that things get messy.

This also supports the idea that Tarquin cares more about his legacy in general than it being an evil legacy. He is an opportunist, and sees this as a way to look even cooler in history. This is evidenced because Tarquin said he will try to spread word that it was his idea.

[Morthis]

Somehow I wouldn't feel a whole lot safer knowing that someone intent on conquering a whole continent (and would probably love to rule the whole world if it was within his grasp) suddenly gets control of a gate that may eventually lead to him achieving exactly that.

[Porthos]

4) Tarquin wants control of the gate, which isnt necessarily a bad thing.

Um. Yeah. I think I'll just disagree on this one right here. :smalltongue:

Mostly because I think he'd be able to come up with a use for it.

[Kish]

Tarquin's showing up definitely demonstrates the Order has a large amount of luck.

...Whether it's good luck or bad luck is debatable.

[littlebum2002]

Even if he could use it, there isnt much that he can use it for. Sure his legacy would be enhanced if he used it to bargain for god status or something, but his goal of unifying his continent under a centralized governing body doesnt get closer to being accomplished by controlling a gate outside his territory.


I'm pretty sure this is wrong. The only reason he is limiting his current plans is because he knows that, if he tries to grab too much power, someone will be tempted to overthrow him. The best way to gain power and keep it is to have just enough power live like a king, but not enough to attract attention.

On the other hand, if you DO find a way to get more power without the risk of losing it (like controlling a life-erasing snarl), then by all means grab it.

[F.Harr]

Also, Tarquin is an accomplished liar and a leader. Roy is a leader, too. They're not going to play well together.

[skim172]

I'm not sure we can really assume that Tarkers has no personal motive towards the Gate. He's investing quite a bit of effort in order to gain control of it, and he's a pretty evil guy. It's quite possible that he's figured out some method of using the Gate towards his own evil ends.

The fact that Tarquin doesn't want his son to die isn't a guarantee of anything. He may care about Elan - that doesn't mean he's on Elan's side. I don't think, for example, that he'd much care if one of Elan's friends got killed.

And as a general rule, anytime an evil dictator comes marching in with a giant army riding dinosaurs, you shouldn't feel lucky. It's just common sense. :smallconfused:

If you ever see Hitler riding a T-Rex in your direction - you, my friend, are a very unlucky person.

[gallagher]

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. The only reason he is limiting his current plans is because he knows that, if he tries to grab too much power, someone will be tempted to overthrow him. The best way to gain power and keep it is to have just enough power live like a king, but not enough to attract attention.

On the other hand, if you DO find a way to get more power without the risk of losing it (like controlling a life-erasing snarl), then by all means grab it.

And yet, would he use it? If he is using the threat of the snarl to prevent others from overthrowing him, then it is just that, a threat. Nobody in their right mind would risk hitting the proverbial reset button on all of existence to overthrow a dictator. At least, nobody in their right mind. Even scry-and-die tactics are likely to fail because Tarquin plans for everything.

Tarquin is unlikely to even use the reality-erasing powers of the snarl because he is concerned about his legacy, being remembered, and all that jazz. Having it is just a large deterrent. Though Tarquin is interested in Elan defeating him to make for an awesome story... but having a giant weapon of unknown power at his disposal would make for an even better story than could already be told...

In the end, the Snarl is best used as a threat to keep uprisings from occurring, and even if his dictatorship is bad, Tarquin having but not using the Snarl is a very good outcome for the Order

[Porthos]

Tarquin having but not using the Snarl is a very good outcome for the Order

No it isn't. Because Tarquin staying in power isn't a good outcome for Team OotS.

Do I need to put it up in 200 foot tall flaming letters or something? :smalltongue:

[cavalieredraghi]

Targuin may be clearly evil, but is his goal to unify the Continent wholly all that bad.

[Porthos]

Targuin may be clearly evil, but is his goal to unify the Continent wholly all that bad.

Yes. Because of how and why he's doing it.

And before anyone pipes up, I don't believe one can honestly say there will be 'less death' in the long run.

Mostly because of:

A) All the death and carnage that occurs up to it.

B) All the death and carnage that occurs after it (what? you think they'll close down the arena or similar things? :smalltongue:)

C) Unless I miss my guess, overtly unifying the continent into a single government isn't the goal. It's having an eternal 1984 situation where three countries constantly attack each other swapping out minor territorial gains amongst the three of them. And thus people will still be dying in all of those 'border disputes'.

And that ignores all of the misery these people will be under thanks to Team Tarquin's regime.

Despite what some people think, Order Isn't Always The Best. :smallwink:

[137beth]

Targuin may be clearly evil, but is his goal to unify the Continent wholly all that bad.
Sure it is--do you need 200 ft tall fireworks made of escaped prisoners?

[Kish]

Cough cough. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15378004&postcount=142)

[cavalieredraghi]

@137 yes please!!!! anyways i really think the Oots is Screwed. i can't wait to see what is really going on, but if any one gets hold of the last gate it will turn out bad. even if the snarl does not exist, the gates where created for a reason i just wonder what that true reason is. maybe it is the cross over to 4e.

[Gift Jeraff]

Yeah, the OOTS is really lucky they have the guy who said he was going to help them defeat Nale while he saw Nale right there and later released Zz'dtri. It's not like he gave them a bugged magic carpet or has an ulterior motive or anything.

[skim172]

In the end, the Snarl is best used as a threat to keep uprisings from occurring, and even if his dictatorship is bad, Tarquin having but not using the Snarl is a very good outcome for the Order

I'm not sure giving a willfully evil megalomaniac psychopath the power to end the universe is the best idea. We already know that the Gates can be perverted to be used as an existential threat. And that's not even taking into account all the unknowns about the Rift - since it seems very likely that there is more to the Rift than we've been told.

And we're gonna hand that over to the most successful evil dictator ever? Because he's Elan's dad?

It'd be like giving nuclear technology to Alexander the Great. If Alexander the Great was committed to evil. Sure, he can't use it without killing himself. But he can sure use it to guarantee his reign forever and ever.

[Tock Zipporah]

Also, Tarquin is an accomplished liar and a leader. Roy is a leader, too. They're not going to play well together.

Roy may not be as skilled a liar as Tarquin, but he's been known to tell a fib or two. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html)

[Alan_Pehnereas]

If you ever see Hitler riding a T-Rex in your direction - you, my friend, are a very unlucky person.

Mind if I sig this?

[David Argall]

1) Tarquin already expressed his intent to help Elan succeed in stopping Xykon. That isnt likely to have changed, as Xykon and Redcloak pose a severe threat to Tarquin's plans.
a-We already have plenty of proof that anything Tarquin can be a lie of any degree
b-While this is likely to change soon, Tarquin may be almost entirely ignorant of Xykon and/or Redcloak. He "knows" Nale has an in with somebody, but has very little knowledge of who that is. [Confirmed knowledge that is, Tarquin probably has little faith in Nale's claim he is in with the brass.



3) The Order is going to have a tough time against Team Evil anyway, and Tarquin brought an army. They are definitely strong enough with Tarquin's help to secure and defend the final gate
The army is likely a waste of time. X shoots off a few dozen fireballs every day until it is destroyed. It will be up to Tarquin's party and the OOTS to stop X.



4) Tarquin wants control of the gate, which isnt necessarily a bad thing. He has lots of resources at his disposal that can protect the gate from further danger, and hasnt shown that he wishes to use the gate. Even if he could use it, there isnt much that he can use it for. Sure his legacy would be enhanced if he used it to bargain for god status or something, but his goal of unifying his continent under a centralized governing body doesnt get closer to being accomplished by controlling a gate outside his territory.

Tarquin getting the gate is very much a bad thing. It's just that the alternative is worse. X's plans could lead to the end of the world inside a year. Tarquin will need a year or two to get mage, cleric, and ritual before he can get where X is now.



So in sum, Tarquin has shown he wishes to help Elan, has a personal interest in defeating Xykon, and cant accomplish much by using the gate to his own end.
Tarquin promised to help Elan,and turned right around and helped Nale. He may not be as bad as X, or even Nale, but he is bad news.

[Morthis]

Targuin may be clearly evil, but is his goal to unify the Continent wholly all that bad.

Let's see Tarquin's "unified continent":


Likely be a slave worker
Likely to die as a means to provide entertainment to others
Might get executed just to make a nice flaming sign, or really any other random reason Tarquin might need some bodies
My children will get to look forward to living in a "unified continent" in which 1000 people get sacrificed each day (Well not anymore now with Malack dead)


vs random nation perpetually at war


Living in a nation constantly at war, constantly changing leaders, with no idea of what the future might hold


Yeah I think I'll pick option B.

[Kislath]

I think people are basing their idea of how a unified continent would run too much on the way Tarquin and company currently run things.

Things are currently the way they are as a distraction, a way to keep everyone unbalanced. I doubt that they'd have to keep up such appearances under a unified land that people actually knew was unified.

Tarquin is a smart guy, and Machiavellian tactics are certainly the sort of tactics he would use. If he had the power of a gate or the snarl to wield, then it would be a simple thing for him to use it to "force" a peaceful unification with the other surrounding lands. The people of all the lands would be happy that the constant warring was over, and when the other various evil distractions started getting phased out, one by one, the people would grow to love Tarquin more and more as their savior even while being a conquered people.
Tarquin would love that. What a legacy! Tarquin the Conqueror! Tarquin the Great! Tar-quin! Tar-quin! Tar-quin!

What I'm suggesting is that Tarquin just might see this as an opportunity for something greater than anything he had originally planned. Before learning of the Snarl and the Gates, his best plan was to get killed in an epic duel with his son and hope for a cool song to be written about it.
Now, though, well, screw THAT. Now he has a shot at something much more epic, and Tarquin, if anything, is all about the epic.

[Kish]

I think people are basing their idea of how a unified continent would run too much on the way Tarquin and company currently run things.
I think people are basing their idea of how Tarquin will rule at some unspecified point in the future too much on their concept of Tarquin as an awesome character who just happens to be sort of technically evil if you must pay attention to the limited and unrealistic alignment system.

Even if Tarquin ruled openly, the extreme cartoonish evil would not be getting phased out, because it's central to Tarquin. There is no practical reason now for him to serve phoenix liver at his banquets, torture women to make them marry him, or put the heart of a virgin collected on the virgin's wedding knight in his magic ointment. He does those things because he chooses to, because he's a monster.

[Morthis]

Kish pretty much nailed it. Tarquin is an interesting character, he's very charismatic despite being evil. In fact, I'd say that's a big part of his appeal, that he's the kind of character you end up liking despite how evil he is.

None of that makes him any less evil or horrible. Heck, we don't even need to discuss how he would run things when everything is unified, we already know. He is actually thrilled about the idea of Malack taking over and sacrificing 1000 people a day. There's the unified continent we can look forward to under one great ruler, one that will get systematically wiped out until it's devoid of people.

[F.Harr]

Roy may not be as skilled a liar as Tarquin, but he's been known to tell a fib or two. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html)

Yeah, but very sloppily.

By the way, I don't know about anyone else, but Tarquin being gentelmanly frightens the hell out of me.

By the way, assuming a more-or-less standard NATO deffinition of a division, that's ten to fifteen thousand people trained in the art of ominous plot-citical reveals. YIKES!

[Bulldog Psion]

If you ever see Hitler riding a T-Rex in your direction - you, my friend, are a very unlucky person.

Someone else already grabbed this for their sig, but I just want to chime in and say that phrase is both hilarious and memorable. And a little alarming. :smallsmile:

[EnragedFilia]

The Order sure is lucky that Tarquin showed up, because otherwise they'd have to try to manage a denouement all by themselves, and based on Roy's insipid plan that would have taken like 5 extra strips. This way, we can get the plot threads all tied up before heading into the next book.

[Porthos]

and when the other various evil distractions started getting phased out, one by one,

Why would this happen?

[Kislath]

Because there would be no further need for them. He does those things now to keep everyone from getting uppity under the current constant warfare. If a massive peace were declared, and a new unified continent suddenly became a huge new country to keep everyone fired up and distracted, then he wouldn't have to create so many other distractions all the time.
Sure, he'd still be evil and nasty, but with the people no longer on the brink of revolt, Tarquin would be able to scale it back a bit. I don't think it would ever be all sunshine and lollipops, but maybe the only ones brutally killed would be criminals.
Tarquin wants to be HUGE, and he wants History to remember him forever. Now that he has a chance for something bigger than he ever thought possible, I think he might go for it. If that means being a bit nicer to his subjects so that they adore him more, then he's savvy enough to do that. Being good for only selfish reasons is still evil.

In fact, I'm going to predict that Tarquin decided that Malack's plan for mass-sacrifices was counterproductive to his own new plan, and that he's pretty glad that the lizard is dead.

[veti]

So in sum, Tarquin has shown he wishes to help Elan, has a personal interest in defeating Xykon, and cant accomplish much by using the gate to his own end.

There are three statements there. I don't believe any one of them is borne out by any evidence much stronger than "wishful thinking".

Edit:

Sure, he'd still be evil and nasty, but with the people no longer on the brink of revolt, Tarquin would be able to scale it back a bit. I don't think it would ever be all sunshine and lollipops, but maybe the only ones brutally killed would be criminals.

He may be "able" to scale it back a bit. But why would he want to? He wants to be the Evil Overlord, not the Neutral Overlord or the Really Trying To Be A Bit Nicer Overlord. Arguably, any letup in conditions while he's still in charge would detract from his "legend" in the end.

[Morthis]

Because there would be no further need for them. He does those things now to keep everyone from getting uppity under the current constant warfare. If a massive peace were declared, and a new unified continent suddenly became a huge new country to keep everyone fired up and distracted, then he wouldn't have to create so many other distractions all the time.
Sure, he'd still be evil and nasty, but with the people no longer on the brink of revolt, Tarquin would be able to scale it back a bit. I don't think it would ever be all sunshine and lollipops, but maybe the only ones brutally killed would be criminals.
Tarquin wants to be HUGE, and he wants History to remember him forever. Now that he has a chance for something bigger than he ever thought possible, I think he might go for it. If that means being a bit nicer to his subjects so that they adore him more, then he's savvy enough to do that. Being good for only selfish reasons is still evil.

History remembers the most horrible people quite well, and Tarquin has shown no qualms about being called a villain.

Either way, this looks like nothing but wishful thinking. We've seen absolutely zero indication that Tarquin will scale things back, or have a change of heart, and a million indications that he's a horrible person that loves the way he's currently running things. So I ask you, what are you basing this turn around on? What you're arguing right now goes against everything we've learned about Tarquin, it's akin to me arguing Elan will have a change of heart and join Tarquin in the way he runs things.


In fact, I'm going to predict that Tarquin decided that Malack's plan for mass-sacrifices was counterproductive to his own new plan, and that he's pretty glad that the lizard is dead.

Yes and then he'll re-marry Elan's mom, Nale and Elan will become friends, and they'll live happily ever after.

[Kish]

He does those things now to keep everyone from getting uppity under the current constant warfare.
Oh?

Serving phoenix liver at his banquets "keeps everyone from getting uppity"?

Torturing women to force them to marry him? (You know, it looks to me like he'd have fewer problems with Amun-Zora had he accepted her first No as meaning No.)

Cutting the hearts out of virgins on their wedding nights?

No. Your post is pure industrial-grade wishful thinking. Tarquin does vicious things because he's a vicious person.

[The Oni]

Tarquin's not going to tone the evil down a single whit. Remember, he's not merely a vicious person or a villain, he's a multiclass-Bard (probably) playing the ROLE of a villain - for the lulz. He's like the Joker, if the Joker could make allies and coherent plans. For all his Affably Evil charisma, I'd reckon the sheer amount of soul-darkening, baby-crushing evil he's capable of exceeds Xykon's.

[gallagher]

Edited the OP in light of 912!