Beholder Mage Shenanigans

[Segev]

So, we all know that one of the easiest ways into the class is through 2x PAO with appropriate feats to get the eyestalks power and the antimagic eye. And that another mechanism is Elan + PAO, if it's ruled that 2x PAO doesn't work due to the first one having a duration and that reducing the second one's duration when it wears off.

But what about Magic Jar and Mind Switch? Obviously, True Mind Switch would work just fine; of course, by the time you're slinging that around, beholder mage is really just icing on the already potent cake of being a minimum 17th level Psion. The 2 levels of Beholder Mage pre-epic aren't even going to be a blip, comparatively. There are ways one might pay a Telepath of higher level than you to manifest it multiple times, but even that's ludicrously expensive, since it's 10k exp a pop.

Regular Mind Switch, along with Magic Jar, might offer a solution, though. Reading both of them, you get far more of the Beholder's physical capabilities than you do off of PAO. (PAO specifically doesn't grant special qualities; despite it being listed as a movement mode, their "naturally bouyant" quality that gives them flight is a Special Quality. ...that might be the only one, honestly.)

But it also is a bit closer to holding on to "true beholder." You're not a person polymorphed into one; you've actively stolen his form.

In order to pull it off permanently, though, you're going to need a magic item rather than either the spell or the power. I actually think I like Magic Jar better for this, since it just has a material focus and, at this point, we don't want to have a beholder running around in our squishy original body. We might even want to keep it around in stasis or something in case something happens to our Beholder body and the magic jar.

Since we're likely hiring somebody else to build our magic item for us anyway, we may as well look for a 11th level caster so they can put that caster level in the jar. This way, it can affect a beholder with no further shenanigans (as they have 11 HD). 5x11x2000 = 110,100 gp, including the value of the focus (which may as well be the magic item).

Make it an amulet or a headband.

Now you can body hop more or less at will, and a beholder is a valid target.


Thoughts? Difficulties? Solutions to those difficulties?

[strider24seven]

1. Buy an item/dorje/power stone of Mind Switch
2. Buy an item/dorje/power stone of Astral Seed
3. Find a Beholder
4. Do whatever you can to make it fail its save vs Mind Switch
5. Cast Astral Seed
6. Commit Suicide.
7. 10 days later, bam. Alive and Beholder-Mage ready.

And all you need is the cash to buy 1 casting each of 2 powers.
And the Beholder, of course. That might be a little harder.

[Segev]

Might even be able to make it easier to "make it fail its save" against Mind Switch by hitting it with Psionic Suggestion (easy enough to have by the time you can afford the other two items) until it does fail its save against that. The Suggestion should be something to get it to take and use the Mind Switch item on you. (This would require a non-power-trigger/completion version of the item, though.)

[Vaz]

Elan Wizard 1, Precocious Apprentice, Reserves of Strength, Assume Su Ability (use flaws).

Alter Self into a Tsochar. Take its Control Body ability. (Alter Self isn't limited by your HD, caster level only, reserves of strength, hurray!).

Break WBL limit in your favourite way, purchase a Scroll of Gate, True Mind Switch, and Astral Seed, request a Helpless Beholder, then Use Tsochar ability to form with it.

Congratulations, you are now a Beholder Mage at ECL 2.

Throw on Magic Mantle Ardent 2/X1/Ur-Priest 1.

Mix and Match Psi Theurge, Cerebremancer and Mystic Theurge to gain triple 9ths. Take your favourite Initiator class and add in Legacy champion to get as high Initiator Level as possible, before capping 20 with your Initiator class to get highest maneuvres possible.

Might be some way to get Quad 9ths that way.

[Segev]

On the one hand, I don't think the Tsochar power to infest somebody makes them count as that person's species et al. On the other, do this to a Beholder and (either before or after) nail him with negative levels and force him to fail his saves to avoid them becoming permanent HD loss, and force him to level up as a Beholder Mage, possibly going for triple-threat 9s. You go for more Psi, yourself.

This gives you two sets of actions to work with every round.

Getting 9th level maneuvers is only good if you can make exquisite use of stances and boosts; you're using your Standard action on psi powers. You can blast away with Beholder Mage spells as a semi-free action, but you're not getting divine spells off as a general rule because your mouth is occupied by your "spellsong," and you're using your Standard for those Psi Powers anyway.

That's where being the Tsochar inside the Beholder helps: whispercast to get your divine spells off when you don't feel like psi-blasting.

[Chronos]

None of these methods work, anyway. If you're really a beholder, then you have a beholder's LA of --, and thus can't gain any more class levels except by DM fiat. If you're not really a beholder, then you don't qualify for Beholder Mage.

[strider24seven]

then you have a beholder's LA of --, and thus can't gain any more class levels except by DM fiat.

#Citation Needed

[Segev]

Given that qualification for a PrC is pretty much inherently DM fiat anyway (as he can at any time say "no, not allowing that PrC"), we resort to RAW readings that do not assume a DM bans PrCs outright. Because the Requirement for Beholder Mage is "must be a True Beholder," and the definition of "True Beholder" is "not one of the -kin," anything that can make you such from something that STARTS as a PC qualifies. The LA -- entry isn't a part of the requirement for "True Beholder." There are lots of things you can turn into by various means that have LA --; druids do it all the time with Wild Shape.

So no, that argument doesn't hold water.

More noteworthily, the process suggested wherein one becomes first a Tsochar and then infests a Beholder works, period.

As would, technically, using Dominate Monster to have a pet beholder and forcing him to take levels in Beholder Mage, possibly after using level drain to get him able to advance in it with fewer exp. The latter method is far less satisfying, as you're NOT the beholder mage, but mechanically it's equivalent. The Tsochari method likewise lacks the visceral sense of BEING the beholder, but since you're entangled within him and can basically use him like a spherical sock puppet, it's as-good-as.

[Chronos]

Beholders have an LA of --, as you can confirm by checking your Monster Manual. It doesn't say that there's an exception for things that used to be other races before they became beholders, so there isn't. Can anyone give a cite for a beholder of any origin lacking an LA?

[Vaz]

On the one hand, I don't think the Tsochar power to infest somebody makes them count as that person's species et al. On the other, do this to a Beholder and (either before or after) nail him with negative levels and force him to fail his saves to avoid them becoming permanent HD loss, and force him to level up as a Beholder Mage, possibly going for triple-threat 9s. You go for more Psi, yourself.
My bad. I meant it can while Inhabiting, threaten the recently awoken (assuming Unconcious or paralyzed as the easiest way) Beholder into doing what you say (such as failing its next save), at which point you've won. If you fail, well, you can always "replace" and instantly kill it. You might not be a "true beholder" but it's not going to turn round and kill you; in return, sell your 10ft poles, and save up again until it works.


This gives you two sets of actions to work with every round.

Getting 9th level maneuvers is only good if you can make exquisite use of stances and boosts; you're using your Standard action on psi powers. You can blast away with Beholder Mage spells as a semi-free action, but you're not getting divine spells off as a general rule because your mouth is occupied by your "spellsong," and you're using your Standard for those Psi Powers anyway.

That's where being the Tsochar inside the Beholder helps: whispercast to get your divine spells off when you don't feel like psi-blasting.
That's true, it's always easier to have a ride along jobby.

As an Ardent 10 with Dominant Time Mantle (and Magic) and Syncronicity "hilarity" (hey, we're talking CharOp here), you should have no issues.

Alternatively;
Beholder Mage 1/Ardent 2/Beholder Advancement +2 (unsure how at the moment, I'm sure there's an ECL4 entry with +1 arcane somewhere)/Ur-Priest 1 gains you 16 levels to play around with; I'm not brilliant at triple threat optimizing, but with Cerebremancer 7/PsiTheurge 7, that gets you Ardent 18 (boosted to 23 ML with Overchannel+PM)/Beholder Mage 10/Ur-Priest 8 casting.

Anyone better at optimizing Triple Threats might be able to get better use out of things like Bloodlines or the Legacy weapons, but I'm not confident enough with them to delve in just yet.

[Segev]

So, basically, every time a Druid turns into an Animal with Wild Shape, he ceases to be a PC, and thus the player must make a new character?

[strider24seven]

Beholders have an LA of --, as you can confirm by checking your Monster Manual. It doesn't say that there's an exception for things that used to be other races before they became beholders, so there isn't. Can anyone give a cite for a beholder of any origin lacking an LA?

The citation needed was with regards to the "can no longer gain levels without DM fiat." The DMG only indicates that "LA --" is unsuitable for player races, not that a former player race who becomes unsuitable can no longer gain levels.

Besides, Mind Switch + Astral seed leaves you with the mind (and presumably) soul of your former race, but you are reborn with the body of a beholder (but not necessarily with all the abilities of one). Which of course, leaves you with an LA of "whatever you had before."

Of course, you could argue that having encounters to gain XP in order to level requires DM fiat as well.

[Chronos]

OK, so find the entry on the XP tables for a character with an ECL of --.

[Segev]

OK, so find the entry on the XP tables for a character with an ECL of --.

You retain your level when you assume other forms. Therefore, you do not have an ECL of --. You have an ECL of "whatever you had before."

[strider24seven]

You retain your level when you assume other forms. Therefore, you do not have an ECL of --. You have an ECL of "whatever you had before."

QFT.
Dunno how this interacts with the PAO shenanigans. Only that it might work with Mind Switch+Astral Seed, depending on the level of shenanigans the DM will tolerate.

And if he doesn't just outright say no to Beholder Mage, then he can tolerate quite a hefty amount of shenanigans.

Edit to avoid double post:
I am surprised that no one has brought up Changelings with Racial Emulation emulating Incarnate Effigy Beholders.

[Vaz]

PAO is a) so badly worded that nobody knows what's happening with it, b) unable to stack with itself for Permanent Duration, as the benefits overlap.

[strider24seven]

PAO is so badly worded that nobody knows what's happening with it

So true. The first thing I ask a new DM and the first thing I tell new players when I DM is "How does Polymorph work?" And I have received a different answer from each DM.

[Vaz]

One of my favourite abuses for it I came across in the Iron Chef (and it didn't even involve Permanency gaining!), was when I took PAO to transform into a Great Wyrm Dragon as a Dispassionate Watcher; boom-bang-a-bang, instantly lose it's gained Spellcasting and add it onto my Ur-Priest chassis.

[strider24seven]

One of my favourite abuses for it I came across in the Iron Chef (and it didn't even involve Permanency gaining!), was when I took PAO to transform into a Great Wyrm Dragon as a Dispassionate Watcher; boom-bang-a-bang, instantly lose it's gained Spellcasting and add it onto my Ur-Priest chassis.

That is... actually hilarious.
I must write this upon my Black Napkin of Awesome...

[Segev]

If I'm going to use PAO to qualify for Beholder Mage, I'm going to start as an Elan Psion with 18 int and take Metamorphic Transfer at level 5, then pay a higher-level wizard to PAO me into a Beholder. Between "similarity" (being an Aberration just like the Beholder) and "lower int" (Beholders have a 17), I get the permanent duration. Sadly, one of the things I don't get is the flight. Despite it being a movement mode, it's also a Special Quality.

Personally, I find this funny, as I'm either hopping along at 5 ft./round, or I need to get creative. At least until I can cast Overland Flight.

[strider24seven]

If I'm going to use PAO to qualify for Beholder Mage, I'm going to start as an Elan Psion with 18 int and take Metamorphic Transfer at level 5, then pay a higher-level wizard to PAO me into a Beholder. Between "similarity" (being an Aberration just like the Beholder) and "lower int" (Beholders have a 17), I get the permanent duration. Sadly, one of the things I don't get is the flight. Despite it being a movement mode, it's also a Special Quality.

Personally, I find this funny, as I'm either hopping along at 5 ft./round, or I need to get creative. At least until I can cast Overland Flight.

Just have a monk roll you about. At least his speed boost will be good for something.

[Chronos]

Quoth Segev:

You retain your level when you assume other forms. Therefore, you do not have an ECL of --. You have an ECL of "whatever you had before."
You retain your level. ECL, however, is not level, it's level plus level adjustment. Anything plus -- is --, so therefore, even though your level remains unchanged, your ECL becomes --.

The changeling/racial emulation thing might work, though (in TO land, at least).

[Segev]

Again, then, you're saying that a Druid in Wild Shape has an ECL of --, and therefore can't earn exp from encounters in which he uses it. >_>

[Raendyn]

Can someone explain to me the difference between

prereq:Beholder
and
prereq: True Beholder

Thanks in advance!

[Hamste]

Can someone explain to me the difference between

prereq:Beholder
and
prereq: True Beholder

Thanks in advance!

Mainly there are creatures called Beholderkin which do not count for True Beholder requirements but would count if it just said beholder.

[JaronK]

Can someone explain to me the difference between

prereq:Beholder
and
prereq: True Beholder

Thanks in advance!

Beholderkin are Beholders, but they are not True Beholders. See Lords of Madness for examples of Beholderkin.

JaronK

[Raendyn]

Thanks for the info guys.

[Chronos]

Again, then, you're saying that a Druid in Wild Shape has an ECL of --, and therefore can't earn exp from encounters in which he uses it. >_>
No, but I'm also not saying that a druid qualifies for a prestige class that has as a prerequisite "Race: Bear".

[Segev]

No, but I'm also not saying that a druid qualifies for a prestige class that has as a prerequisite "Race: Bear".

Not really relevant. You're not pointing out areas people are picking and choosing rules to suit them, as you attempt to imply here. You're arbitrarily making things up to apply when what you really want to say is, "This is too broken, and I don't like it."

Beholder Mage is silly. The thread is titled with the word "Shenanigans." I don't mind people pointing out flaws in the RAW-use being made, but it's kind-of tiresome to argue about making up rules that aren't present in order to thwart it.

The rules about LA -- specify that you cannot create a character who is a member of that race. Any rules that permit you to transform an extant PC into such a thing are considered valid, and do not change you to "unplayable" from a RAW standpoint. (That a DM is perfectly within his rights to ask you to retire the character because he can't run for such a thing is a nother matter entirely.)