Sabine, demon or devil?

[Newwby]

Forgive me if this is clearly outlined in one of the later strips (I'm mid-reread) but was it ever established whether Sabine was a demon or devil? If not what evidence has the forum previously collected to hint toward either option?

I bring it up because I've just gotten past this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) and I noted that Nale writes 'not silver or cold iron' (referring to the scissors Sabine is holding) on his plan. Does Nale not know?

[Morthis]

I believe she should be a devil, she mentioned working with director Lee before, which is the LE one, and LE is devil.

[Carl]

According to the rules at least, Demon.

[halfeye]

There is a strip where she is called a devil and takes it as an insult.

[Sylian]

Succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html). Demon.

[Moonwolf727]

Since she is a succubus that would make her a demon rather than a devil, I wondered briefly how you didn't realise until I saw that you were only on that strip at the time. Its not really a spoiler in any case but She objects angrily to being called a devil as an offhand insult later on.
Anway, she is definitely a demon. :smallsmile:

[Gift Jeraff]

"--a succubus (demon) that has been working under Director Lee." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html)

Nale's blueprint was just a gag because the readers did not know until #637. It's funnier if Nale does know, yet wrote that for no in-universe reason.

[smuchmuch]

Wiki page (http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Sabine) for Sabine confirms all that has been said above and apparently word of god, stated her a sucubus once and for all. So Demon

[EnragedFilia]

Elan only complains at his rapier for not being cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html), which seems to indicate that he believes she's a Tanar'ri, although he might be wrong about that, or he might just be mixing up which type has which DR. More to the point, Succubi are by definition Tanar'ri in 3.5, and the only similar-looking Baatezu in the core books would be an Erinyes, which don't have metal-based DR in the first place and lack shapeshifting capabilities (among other things). The alternative, therefore, is "some sort of homebrewed Baatezu Succubus with DR/silver but otherwise mostly identical to the core Succubus".

[Harbinger]

It was a small running gag that this fact was unknown, but we now know that she is a demon, because she gets offended at being called a devil. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html)

[GSFB]

What's important is that the OotS doesn't know if she is devil or a demon, and therefore is unable to correctly choose the right type of special weapon to overcome her DR.

[137beth]

What's important is that the OotS doesn't know if she is devil or a demon, and therefore is unable to correctly choose the right type of special weapon to overcome her DR.

Why wouldn't the order know:smallconfused:
When Haley wasn't sure, it was before she knew Sabine was a succubus.

[Kislath]

Why is a demon working for Director Lee?

[Yuki Akuma]

Why is a demon working for Director Lee?

A succubus is capable of being Neutral or even Lawful Evil. She really doesn't seem that chaotic to me.

Alternatively, she's on loan. Or owes him something. Or she's terrified of him and obeys him out of self preservation.

[MesiDoomstalker]

A succubus is capable of being Neutral or even Lawful Evil. She really doesn't seem that chaotic to me.

Alternatively, she's on loan. Or owes him something. Or she's terrified of him and obeys him out of self preservation.

Or since she works for the IFCC, which whole point is to put aside the differences of the various [Evil] Outsiders, the fact a Demon is a subordinate to a Devil is par for the course, and right in line with their entire purpose and plan.

[Sir_Leorik]

Forgive me if this is clearly outlined in one of the later strips (I'm mid-reread) but was it ever established whether Sabine was a demon or devil? If not what evidence has the forum previously collected to hint toward either option?



Succubus (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html). Demon.

Yes. In all editions of AD&D and in D&D 3.X (but not in 4E) Succubi are demons (Tanar'ri in 2E, Tanar'r Demons in 3.X).


I bring it up because I've just gotten past this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html) and I noted that Nale writes 'not silver or cold iron' (referring to the scissors Sabine is holding) on his plan. Does Nale not know?


What's important is that the OotS doesn't know if she is devil or a demon, and therefore is unable to correctly choose the right type of special weapon to overcome her DR.

In books one through three it was a running gag that Haley couldn't figure out if Sabine was a Demon or Devil, so Nale's plans in strip #255 are intended to keep the readers in suspense. (Maybe Nale learned more from Tarquin about drama than he realizes?)


Elan only complains at his rapier for not being cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html), which seems to indicate that he believes she's a Tanar'ri, although he might be wrong about that, or he might just be mixing up which type has which DR. More to the point, Succubi are by definition Tanar'ri in 3.5, and the only similar-looking Baatezu in the core books would be an Erinyes, which don't have metal-based DR in the first place and lack shapeshifting capabilities (among other things). The alternative, therefore, is "some sort of homebrewed Baatezu Succubus with DR/silver but otherwise mostly identical to the core Succubus".

More importantly, Erinyes Devils are not the "Evil incarnation of illicit sex", they're the "Evil incarnation of vengeance".


Why is a demon working for Director Lee?


Or since she works for the IFCC, which whole point is to put aside the differences of the various [Evil] Outsiders, the fact a Demon is a subordinate to a Devil is par for the course, and right in line with their entire purpose and plan.

The IFCC are trying to erase the differences between Demons, Devils and Daemons/Yugoloths, in order to unite the three species and launch a genocidal war against the Forces of Good. Director Lee is merely practicing what he preaches, the same way Director Cedrik did by attending college with Devils.

[SavageWombat]

I always assumed the real problem was that succubi do not normally drain levels with claw attacks. So she was unusual from the get-go, even if you had KN: the Planes.

[Sir_Leorik]

I always assumed the real problem was that succubi do not normally drain levels with claw attacks. So she was unusual from the get-go, even if you had KN: the Planes.

Yes, they do. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus)


Energy Drain (Su)

A succubus drains energy from a mortal it lures into some act of passion, or by simply planting a kiss on the victim. If the target is not willing to be kissed, the succubus must start a grapple, which provokes an attack of opportunity. The succubus’s kiss or embrace bestows one negative level. The kiss also has the effect of a suggestion spell, asking the victim to accept another kiss from the succubus. The victim must succeed on a DC 21 Will save to negate the effect of the suggestion. The DC is 21 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. These save DCs are Charisma-based.


EDIT: Okay, you're saying that because Sabine uses her Energy Drain as part of her claw attacks, she is unusual. But that could be the result of a Feat she has. Erinyes do not have an Energy Drain attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) Succubi do, but they usually need to be intimate with their victim. Sabine can do what she does either because she has a Feat, or because of authorial fiat.

[NerdyKris]

Why wouldn't the order know:smallconfused:
When Haley wasn't sure, it was before she knew Sabine was a succubus.

She was still unaware as of Strip# 396 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html). Both attacks she makes against Sabine are with both types of arrows.

She still wouldn't know that Sabine is a Succubus, unless I'm missing a point where she was called one by Tarquin or Malack in front of Haley.

[MReav]

I assumed she was a Succubus multiclassed into Soul Eater. It would let her tank better and drain levels with her touch.

[SavageWombat]

Yes, they do. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus)



EDIT: Okay, you're saying that because Sabine uses her Energy Drain as part of her claw attacks, she is unusual. But that could be the result of a Feat she has. Erinyes do not have an Energy Drain attack. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#erinyes) Succubi do, but they usually need to be intimate with their victim. Sabine can do what she does either because she has a Feat, or because of authorial fiat.

See, you're acting like I said something like "She could be an erinyes." I didn't make any claims other than "It wasn't clear what she was because she wasn't a standard succubus." I don't need to argue how she could or could not have accomplished the trick - it's simply that Haley (and everyone else) was legitimately confused because of a non-spec power.

I think half of these arguments on this board come from people attacking statements other people didn't make.

[CRtwenty]

From what I remember all of her energy attacks involve her either kissing or "embracing" (IE: Grappling) her target. Both of which don't require any special feats or abilities to energy drain with.

Also her level is most likely Rogue. Since she has trapfinding and a high enough Search and Spot to find them. She's not as good as Haley due to Succubus Level Adjustment which is why Haley was able to find traps Sabine couldn't but their classes are still the same imo.

[EnragedFilia]

Has Sabine ever actually drained anyone with a claw attack? All the instances of draining I can think of have involved grappling. Anyway, it seems possible that Elan's relative certainty in 810 regarding which metal type would be helpful is due to having recently observed her shapeshifting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) ability several comics previously.

[Secris]

Has Sabine ever actually drained anyone with a claw attack? All the instances of draining I can think of have involved grappling. Anyway, it seems possible that Elan's relative certainty in 810 regarding which metal type would be helpful is due to having recently observed her shapeshifting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0793.html) ability several comics previously.

Only if he made his Bardic Lore check, or whatever would apply. As innocent and naiive as Elan is, he may not know anything about various species of underworld denziens.

[Gift Jeraff]

I figure Tarquin mentioned that she's a demon in one of their conversations on Elan's second day in the Empire.

[Sir_Leorik]

See, you're acting like I said something like "She could be an erinyes." I didn't make any claims other than "It wasn't clear what she was because she wasn't a standard succubus." I don't need to argue how she could or could not have accomplished the trick - it's simply that Haley (and everyone else) was legitimately confused because of a non-spec power.

I think half of these arguments on this board come from people attacking statements other people didn't make.

I apologize for misreading your post; it was not my intent to attack you and I am sincerely sorry. :smallredface:

I agree that Haley wouldn't know how to hurt Sabine, since Knowledge (the Planes) is not on the list of Rogue class skills, and Haley probably didn't buy ranks cross-class. But that would say more about Haley than it does about Sabine. Every hint we've gotten about Sabine indicates she's a Succubus. She's simply more combat-minded than other Succubi, which The Giant specifically alludes to in his author commentary to "W&XPs".

[Chronos]

Every single Outsider we've seen in any detail in the comic has been tweaked away from how it is in the rules. Sabine can energy drain with her claws (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) and Plane Shift once per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). Celia is inexplicably medium-sized. Quaar has telepathy and Charm Monster, plus the one-in-a-million Summon Pit Fiend. The Pit Fiend was far larger than it should have been.

[halfeye]

The Pit Fiend was far larger than it should have been.
It was however exceedingly dim.

[Sir_Leorik]

Every single Outsider we've seen in any detail in the comic has been tweaked away from how it is in the rules. Sabine can energy drain with her claws (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) and Plane Shift once per day (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html). Celia is inexplicably medium-sized. Quaar has telepathy and Charm Monster, plus the one-in-a-million Summon Pit Fiend. The Pit Fiend was far larger than it should have been.

Sabine's Plane Shift ability is probably a gift from Director Lee. Celia isn't the only Small sized creature drawn Medium sized; every single adult Goblin in "OotS" is drawn Medium sized. Qarr's Charm Monster spells are Sorcerer spells, and he explicitly explained how he could summon a Pit Fiend: the other guy was the worst poker player in the Nine Hells. (It's one thing to lose poker to a shrewd fellow like Duke Rowan Darkwood, Factol of the Fated; it's another thing to lose poker to an Imp, especially one as inept as Qarr. :smallamused:)

As for the Pit Fiend's size, he was probably advanced. Maybe he also had a template that increased his size to Colossal?

[Psyren]

Why is a demon working for Director Lee?

The whole point of their organization is interfiend cooperation. Putting the Succubus under Lee and the Imp under Cedrik seems like an illustration of that to me.

[Sir_Leorik]

The whole point of their organization is interfiend cooperation. Putting the Succubus under Lee and the Imp under Cedrik seems like an illustration of that to me.

Qarr works for the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), not any individual director.

[Psyren]

Qarr works for the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html), not any individual director.

We don't know which of them gives him his marching orders yet (e.g. "pose as Z's familiar") so it's too early to rule it out.

[Sir_Leorik]

We don't know which of them gives him his marching orders yet (e.g. "pose as Z's familiar") so it's too early to rule it out.

Assuming Sabine's off-hand comments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html) were accurate, they work together as a team. Lee sets up traps for righteous mortals, Cedrik relies on his instincts for when to spring the trap shut, and Nero acts as a referee between Lee and Cedrik, making sure they play nice. (Lee may be a little more Chaotic than other Devils and Cedrik a bit more Lawful, but Lee is still mostly Lawful and Cedrik still mostly Chaotic. They need Nero's calming influence.)

In the author commentary to "DStP", Rich says not to put too much stock in which IFCC Director is saying what, since he has deliberately made their dialogue almost interchangeable in many cases.

[Psyren]

Assuming Sabine's off-hand comments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html) were accurate, they work together as a team.

Right, I get that, but Kislath was referring to the comic where they say Sabine gets her orders from Lee. Which leads me to believe that micromanaging or marching orders falls under the purview of individual fiends. Either that or they were just being flip, and all three of them do command her day-to-day.

[Sir_Leorik]

Right, I get that, but Kislath was referring to the comic where they say Sabine gets her orders from Lee. Which leads me to believe that micromanaging or marching orders falls under the purview of individual fiends. Either that or they were just being flip, and all three of them do command her day-to-day.

I don't see a problem with each of them delegating certain tasks to the most capable member of their triumverate. Lee is probably in charge of personnel matters, at least when it comes to corruption of the innocent, seducing Evil mortals, or researching Evil prospects.

[halfeye]

Right, I get that, but Kislath was referring to the comic where they say Sabine gets her orders from Lee.
The phrase was "working under" which was probably an innuendo.

[EnragedFilia]

he explicitly explained how he could summon a Pit Fiend: the other guy was the worst poker player in the Nine Hells. (It's one thing to lose poker to a shrewd fellow like Duke Rowan Darkwood, Factol of the Fated; it's another thing to lose poker to an Imp, especially one as inept as Qarr. :smallamused:)

not to get the discussion sidetracked, but raising on a pair of jacks against three kings isn't "being a bad poker player" so much as "not understanding how poker works".

Ontopic, however, I think we can include Redcloak's flying barbazu and red, hoofed cornugon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html) in the slightly-modified-outsider list.

[Sir_Leorik]

not to get the discussion sidetracked, but raising on a pair of jacks against three kings isn't "being a bad poker player" so much as "not understanding how poker works".

Qarr was pretty much implying that his poker buddy was an idiot. Coming from Qarr, that's saying a lot.

[The Pilgrim]

I'd say she is a Demon, but Lawful.

[MReav]

What about Sabine says that she's lawful? I've heard that claim before and never really bought it.

[The Pilgrim]

Working under Lee, his loyalty to Nale...

Anyway, I wrote "I'd say", not "I say" or "Sabine is Lawful, period".

I mean, that's my impression.

[Sylian]

I wonder if the Giant made a mistake when he wrote that Lee is the devil? Think about it, who seems more likely to be Lawful, a conjurer who teleported mighty armies, or a sorcerer who wanted to tear down creation just to see if they could? It would also make more sense if Lee were a demon, seeing how Sabine, a demon, is working under him.

However, it is entirely plausible that the Giant is subverting it by having Sabine work for a devil. She might be a Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil succubus, after all, or perhaps just a slightly less chaotic Chaotic Evil succubus. The fact that Director Lee sets up the traps, which implies planning, and Cedrik listens to his gut, implies that Lee is, in fact, a devil, while Cedrik is a demon.

I would appreciate it if the Giant clarified it. Is Sabine working for/under a devil, or was a mistake made in Don't Split the Party?

[KillianHawkeye]

I wonder if the Giant made a mistake when he wrote that Lee is the devil? Think about it, who seems more likely to be Lawful, a conjurer who teleported mighty armies, or a sorcerer who wanted to tear down creation just to see if they could? It would also make more sense if Lee were a demon, seeing how Sabine, a demon, is working under him.

However, it is entirely plausible that the Giant is subverting it by having Sabine work for a devil. She might be a Lawful Evil or Neutral Evil succubus, after all, or perhaps just a slightly less chaotic Chaotic Evil succubus. The fact that Director Lee sets up the traps, which implies planning, and Cedrik listens to his gut, implies that Lee is, in fact, a devil, while Cedrik is a demon.

I would appreciate it if the Giant clarified it. Is Sabine working for/under a devil, or was a mistake made in Don't Split the Party?

It's clearly not a mistake. Each of the three fiends has a name the first two letters of which indicate their alignment. Lee is Lawful Evil (and thus a devil), Nero is Neutral Evil (and a daemon/yugoloth), and Cedrick is Chaotic Evil (a demon).

The fact that Sabine, a demon, works under the command of Lee, an archdevil, is simply an illustration of the basic premise of the IFCC in action.

[Kish]

I am mystified that so many people seem to have missed that the IFCC's concept isn't "a generic fiendish organization with generic evil goals," such that the concept "a succubus works for the devilish member of the IFCC" has them protesting and suggesting that it's an authorial mistake.

[Sylian]

It's clearly not a mistake. Each of the three fiends has a name the first two letters of which indicate their alignment. Lee is Lawful Evil (and thus a devil), Nero is Neutral Evil (and a daemon/yugoloth), and Cedrick is Chaotic Evil (a demon).Ah, that makes a lot of sense. It is a bit odd that the conjurer is (probably) Chaotic Evil and the sorcerer (probably) Lawful Evil, though.

[KillianHawkeye]

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. It is a bit odd that the conjurer is (probably) Chaotic Evil and the sorcerer (probably) Lawful Evil, though.

Why is that weird? There is nothing inherently lawful about conjuration or teleportation, nor anything remotely chaotic about sorcery. Neither of those characters have any restriction on their alignments whatsoever.

[Sylian]

Why is that weird? There is nothing inherently lawful about conjuration or teleportation, nor anything remotely chaotic about sorcery. Neither of those characters have any restriction on their alignments whatsoever.It's more about how they were shown in the comic. "Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes! A conjurer who teleported vast armies to conquer world after world." "Jephton the Unholy, Spawn of Hatred! A sorcerer-archmage, master of arcane flexibility!". Jephton also said "I don't need to prepare spell slots!" with a grin, and "Tear down creation just to see if you can.", which indicated a Chaotic alignment, I'd say.

[Kish]

Why is that weird? There is nothing inherently lawful about conjuration or teleportation, nor anything remotely chaotic about sorcery. Neither of those characters have any restriction on their alignments whatsoever.
Actually, while they don't have restrictions, the Player's Handbook does say that wizards tend toward Lawful and sorcerers tend toward Chaotic.

And more importantly, Jephton's personality does generally strike me as Chaotic too. But then, we don't see much of them; maybe Jephton was pretty much like Tarquin in life and Ganonron was a Xykon-style conqueror.

[MReav]

Working under Lee, his loyalty to Nale...

Anyway, I wrote "I'd say", not "I say" or "Sabine is Lawful, period".

There is nothing lawful about loyalty. Take Elan for example.

As for working under Lee, the whole point of the IFCC is to see if fiends of different alignments can work together.

[Dungeon_Crawler]

Rich rarely refers to the 3.5 rules anyway. So it doesn't matter too much

[Sir_Leorik]

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. It is a bit odd that the conjurer is (probably) Chaotic Evil and the sorcerer (probably) Lawful Evil, though.


Why is that weird? There is nothing inherently lawful about conjuration or teleportation, nor anything remotely chaotic about sorcery. Neither of those characters have any restriction on their alignments whatsoever.


It's more about how they were shown in the comic. "Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes! A conjurer who teleported vast armies to conquer world after world." "Jephton the Unholy, Spawn of Hatred! A sorcerer-archmage, master of arcane flexibility!". Jephton also said "I don't need to prepare spell slots!" with a grin, and "Tear down creation just to see if you can.", which indicated a Chaotic alignment, I'd say.


Actually, while they don't have restrictions, the Player's Handbook does say that wizards tend toward Lawful and sorcerers tend toward Chaotic.

And more importantly, Jephton's personality does generally strike me as Chaotic too. But then, we don't see much of them; maybe Jephton was pretty much like Tarquin in life and Ganonron was a Xykon-style conqueror.

We have very little knowledge about Jephton or Ganonron. We can barely tell what their personalities were like, so why would you jump to conclusions that they match the fluff text in the PHB?

Jephton is described as being a master of "Arcane flexibility". That can indicate that he knew the limitations that Sorcerers labor under (limited number of spells known, compared to Wizards) so he diligently researched new spells to increase his repertoire. Perhaps at the end of his life, Jephton knew all manner of spells, to the point where he could respond to any attack, or make any attack of his own, using the limited number of spells known a Sorcerer is stuck with. That requires planning, discipline, the ability to only learn new spells if they fit into his training regimen to improve his flexibility, not grabbing any new spell that looks cool. In addition, Jephton was an Archmage; he specifically took a Prestige Class that is hard for Sorcerers to qualify for, but that makes up for many of their inadequacies. He would have needed to work hard to qualify for Archmage.

Gononron is called the "Terror of a Thousand Planes", but that doesn't tell us much. He had great armies; that also tells us nothing. Having a powerful army is less important than what you use it for. We don't know what Gononron used his for. We also don't know how Gononron maintained discipline; was he more like Xykon or like Tarquin? Too many unanswered questions.

[Sylian]

@Sir_Leorik: Even so, Jephton still suggested that V should "tear down creation just to see if you can". That seems to indicate a Chaotic trait, I'd say.

[Sir_Leorik]

@Sir_Leorik: Even so, Jephton still suggested that V should "tear down creation just to see if you can". That seems to indicate a Chaotic trait, I'd say.

True, but it could also indicate a mad scientist, who rigorously studies Secrets Man Was Not Meant To Know, heedless of the consequences.

I get the impression that Jephton was Lawful, but in the sense of having a personal ethos rather than supporting society as a whole. It's a bit complicated, but there was a whole discussion on the boards weeks ago about whether vigilantes can be Lawful Good or not, and discussing Jephton's Alignment will probably cover much of the same ground. :smallsigh:

[KillianHawkeye]

@Sir_Leorik: Even so, Jephton still suggested that V should "tear down creation just to see if you can". That seems to indicate a Chaotic trait, I'd say.

I disagree that such a statement is necessarily Chaotic. It does seem a little Chaotic, but IMO it's not enough to comment definitively on his alignment.

[Xelbiuj]

Not that any more evidence (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html) is necessary, srd is quite clear but it seems like Tarquin knew that she's a demon as well.

[Psyren]

I really don't see how anyone could get Lawful from Jephthon, or Chaotic from Ganonron. I mean, obviously the only person who knows for sure is the Giant, but everything about Jephthon screams Chaos to me, and by process of elimination that would make Ganon the lawful one.

[Sir_Leorik]

I really don't see how anyone could get Lawful from Jephthon, or Chaotic from Ganonron. I mean, obviously the only person who knows for sure is the Giant, but everything about Jephthon screams Chaos to me, and by process of elimination that would make Ganon the lawful one.

For starters, it would tie in nicely with Rich's description of the IFCC directors in "DStP": Lee is a slightly Chaotic Devil, Cedrik is a slightly Lawful Demon, while Nero is less Neutral than other Daemons/Yugoloths.

Perhaps Jephton is a studious Sorcerer, who may occasionally indulge in whimsical behavior, but is otherwise very Lawful. After all, Tarquin, the consummate example of a Lawful Evil villain in this comic enjoys (mis)quoting "Star Wars" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0723.html), playing practical jokes on enemies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) and clowning around with his best friend (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0854.html) and engaging in casual misogyny. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0862.html) Jephton could easily have had a similar personality, while maintaining a similar ruthlessness and discipline: business before pleasure.

Maybe Ganonron's only orderly behavior is his ability to raise and command armies; just because he could conquer a world, did not give him the ability to (or interest in) governing those worlds. Perhaps Ganonron was only interested in conquest for the sake of conquest; that isn't very Lawful, especially if all that he and his armies left behind were scorched worlds, where the survivors could barely feed and shelter each other.

Remember: a Character's Alignment and personality are not the same thing!

(I should probably add that to my sig. :smallsigh:)