In defense of FFG's Star Wars...

[Ailowynn]

Okay. I absolutely love this system, and I constantly see groaning and complaining over it on these boards. I didn't want to completely derail a thread (or at least, derail it any more), so I made my own.

One of the common complaints is that EotE is pricey, and has a narrow focus (and thus not much crunch).

That's true. (Mostly).

But it's worth it. The artwork is astounding. The production value is incredible. I would buy this simply for the art and info on the SW universe. There's a chapter or two of fluff, which I planned to ignore--I'm a huge Star Wars geek. But those chapters are brilliant. They give you concise information, and suggestions on using each of the topics in your game...even I learned something from it.

The rest of the book is almost pure mechanics. You certainly get a higher crunch:fluff value then you do in, say, Iron Kingdoms RPG or Shadowrun (not that those games are bad or that a lot of fluff is bad).

I definitely understand that it's frustrating to not have Jedi or any information on the other eras. In fact, I wholeheartedly agree. But I also agree with FFG's reasoning: that they wanted to do each part of the galaxy justice. Star Wars means different things to different people, after all, and giving every aspect of the universe would be impossible with just three books.

(Oh--and PDFs don't exist because Lucas considers them electronic content , and FFG doesn't have a license for that).


Another complaint is about the betas: you have to buy those, too. I definitely agree with this one. Even if PDFs were allowed for Star Wars, FFG would still probably charge you for the beta--and that's ridiculous. But it's a small problem; if you don't want the beta, don't buy it. If you only want a taster of the RPG, get someone to run it or pick up the Free RPG Day adventure.


As for the system...it drips with Star Wars goodness. I'd say the dice are my favorite part: now you can fail with advantage, or succeed with threat. Or succeed with advantage. The system really helps players roleplay their characters and creates a really awesome, cinematic feel.

A lot of people prefer Saga edition. I thought I did too. I was not excited for EotE. And then I played it.


My personal bottom line? I like EotE, and it's a system that you have to try to really understand why it's as good as it is. I still love Saga, but it's based on a system that is fundamentally unrealistic, and not tailor built for the Star Wars galaxy. If you want a d20 game, play Saga. If you want a Star Wars game, play Edge.

Okay. That sounded mean. I didn't mean that Saga isn't Star Wars, I meant that it doesn't naturally breed Star Warsiness the way EotE does.



And geeze...that was a lot of writing. I meant it to be much shorter. Lolz.

Anyhows, I hope that did...something beneficial. I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, I'm trying to address issues that people have with the system that are largely unfounded. Did I perhaps miss some dsuch issues?

[Hopeless]

Heard anything else?

[Mando Knight]

Okay. That sounded mean. I didn't mean that Saga isn't Star Wars, I meant that it doesn't naturally breed Star Warsiness the way EotE does.

How, specifically, do the mechanics of Edge of the Empire "breed Star Warsiness" better than Saga? If it's not integrated into the mechanics, then it's not really system-dependent.

Here's my problem with it: they're separating the core character concepts (Jedi, Rebel, fringer) into separate "core" books rather than starting with all three in one core book and expanding on them in supplementary material. It really limits the appeal of running the game if you need to buy multiple books to even start a mixed group (i.e. Luke, Leia, Han & Chewie), especially if they charge as much as they do for each book. For $180 MSRP altogether, it'd better be at least as good material-wise as $200 of the WotC books.

[Hopeless]

How, specifically, do the mechanics of Edge of the Empire "breed Star Warsiness" better than Saga? If it's not integrated into the mechanics, then it's not really system-dependent.

Here's my problem with it: they're separating the core character concepts (Jedi, Rebel, fringer) into separate "core" books rather than starting with all three in one core book and expanding on them in supplementary material. It really limits the appeal of running the game if you need to buy multiple books to even start a mixed group (i.e. Luke, Leia, Han & Chewie), especially if they charge as much as they do for each book. For $180 MSRP altogether, it'd better be at least as good material-wise as $200 of the WotC books.

So what would you expect from an roleplaying game?

Since this is Star Wars how about I fine tune that to what do you expect from a game of Star Wars?

[Ailowynn]

Heard anything else?

Ummmm...no?


Here's my problem with it: they're separating the core character concepts (Jedi, Rebel, fringer) into separate "core" books rather than starting with all three in one core book and expanding on them in supplementary material. It really limits the appeal of running the game if you need to buy multiple books to even start a mixed group (i.e. Luke, Leia, Han & Chewie), especially if they charge as much as they do for each book. For $180 MSRP altogether, it'd better be at least as good material-wise as $200 of the WotC books.

That is a good point. I want to point out, though, that one rule set is pretty easily adapted to doing something else. There are plenty of careers in EotE that could also represent Rebel units; you just won't have all the extras. It's definitely expensive, but it really does go much more in depth than Saga does. In fact, they're releasing supplements for each career. So it is cost-prohibitive to get in to, but I still recommend trying it (at least the beginner's box), because it is a really unique game. This paragraph is rambling. Final statement: I agree, but if you really like the game, this model means that it has a TON more...depth(?) than Saga.

Oh, and I agree that Saga was a better deal, but new players have to contend with higher prices since it's out of print. On eBay I've seen the Core book usually around $60, and KotOR and SotG go for up to $200 each.


How, specifically, do the mechanics of Edge of the Empire "breed Star Warsiness" better than Saga? If it's not integrated into the mechanics, then it's not really system-dependent.

Okay. This is something that's hard to describe, but I'll give it a shot.

One really nice mechanic is Obligation, which gives you a real fringey feel. Basically, each character gets an Obligation, with a rating 1-100. Obligations are things like debt, betrayal (by you or another), duty, and so forth. Each session, the GM rolls a d100 to determine if anyone's Obligation is triggered; this can just mean that you're stressed out over it, or it could mean that a bounty hunter shows up, depending on what the GM wants. You could easily 'port this over to other systems, but it is nicely tied in to EotE. It also functions as a sort of currency (need that hyperdrive? Take on a magnitude 10 Favor).

Next, the careers and talents. Honestly, I didn't like the title "career" at first, but that's really what they are. Smuggler, Bounty Hunter, etc. And that gives characters a bit more depth. Each career has 3 specializations, each of which has twenty talents, which allows for plenty of customization.

The rest is less noticeable, but I'd say more important. For example, one thing that bugs me about d20 systems is HP. Now, I get that HP represents more than a physical beating, but that makes it really difficult to describe at high levels. "Your shot flies past him, making him tremble"..."but rolled a 39!" And so on. With EotE, you have maybe 15 Wounds. At the end of the campaign, you might have 20. A blaster is still a blaster. Most of the time, Wounds are just you wearing away--scrapes and bruise and so on, like in d20. The difference is that it doesn't take thirty shots to wear you down--maybe five or so hits. Real hits, where you are actually, noticeably damaged take the form of critical hits. When you crit someone, you roll a d100 to see what happened--it could be a light graze, a maimed limb, a severed arm, or, with enough modifiers, 151+, which is death. This makes combat much easier to describe and imagine, and the dice mechanic still allows for creativity with those descriptions--more so, I'd say, than d20.

Then there are the dice, which create incredibly cinematic circumstances. It is no longer binary: you have success and failure symbols, as well as advantage and threat, and the more potent Triumph and Despair. Basically, you can roll success along with threat or advantage (and/or Triumph and/or Despair), each of which triggers a side effect of varying magnitude. This creates a lot of GM-Player cooperation to resolve the rolls, and allows for a lot of creativity. Advantage could mean you knock an enemy off of a precipice. Perhaps your shot ricochets off of something, knocking it over into the enemies' path. Maybe you notice a small shaft leading to a garbage masher, through which you can escape. You really don't get the same dramatic feel with any other system: combat swings around every round, and every description is so much more flavorful.

There's also the feeling (mostly because of the above mechanics) that you're still only human (or Twi'lek or Bothan or whatever), not an epic level elven wizard. Though talents can make you harder to hit, the basic difficulty of any combat check remains the same. When shooting, it is determined by range (except in ship combat, where it is instead based on two ships' relative sizes). Melee combat always has a difficulty of 2 dice. These can change based on talents or previous rolls, but it is just about as hard for someone that's been shot at twenty times to dodge a bullet as it is for someone who has never touched a blaster. This also means that, at high levels, even skill monkeys and diplomats can hit an enemy: even if all their buffs are somehow useless, they can still help. Or if you finally face the big bad who blew up your homeworld and are filled with righteous fury, it's so much more dramatic than "does a...27 hit?" or "desinty point to crit for...40 damage." And the way NPCs work is genius. There are three basic levels of NPCs: minion, rival, and nemesis. The latter two are essentially like the PCs in the way that they are constructed and played. But minions are different. They're easier to kill, and their skills are based entirely on how many there are. Thirty stormtroopers pose no threat to a high level Saga character; but in EotE, you'd better pull a Han Solo and run, because they'll be rolling about thirty dice to hit you. This makes minions a real threat, while still letting the PCs feel like heroes because a PC is so much better than a minion, or even three minions. It also speeds up combat dramatically, since the GM only rolls once for the whole group.

And finally, there are the little things. Stuff that goes just the tiniest bit further into making it Star Wars. The Force Die has the same number of light and dark side pips, but the light side has more faces with two points on them, while the dark side has more faces but fewer doubles (and thus is easier to roll but less powerful). Triumph looks like that iconic symbol of Luke holding a lightsaber. Threat is reminiscent of the Imperial symbol, and advantage looks like the Jedi Order's logo. The destiny pool ebbs and flows throughout a session like the Force. There are actions named things like Stay on Target (though Loosen Up! is missing :P). And you can actually do the things you see done in the movies. There are talents and equipment representing hidden storage and other iconic bits that were difficult to represent in Saga (not impossible, but there were fewer things in SWSE that, while reading through, made you go "Han Solo has that talent!" or "Chewie had that upgrade to his bow caster!).

(This isn't entirely related, but the system also fosters a lot of teamwork. It's easy to build off of each other's actions; the Destiny Pool is communal; and initiative is divided into PC and NPC slots, allowing for a lot of flexibility based on who wants to do what).

[Waar]

There are three basic levels of NPCs: minion, rival, and nemesis. The latter two are essentially like the PCs in the way that they are constructed and played. But minions are different. They're easier to kill, and their skills are based entirely on how many there are. Thirty stormtroopers pose no threat to a high level Saga character; but in EotE, you'd better pull a Han Solo and run, because they'll be rolling about thirty dice to hit you. This makes minions a real threat, while still letting the PCs feel like heroes because a PC is so much better than a minion, or even three minions. It also speeds up combat dramatically, since the GM only rolls once for the whole group.




In SAGA 30 Stormtroopers would only do about 100 damage per round to a high level character, perfectly harmless :smalltongue:

The rest of what you wrote is on the other hand quite interesting :smallsmile:

[Mando Knight]

In SAGA 30 Stormtroopers would only do about 100 damage per round to a high level character, perfectly harmless :smalltongue:

The rest of what you wrote is on the other hand quite interesting :smallsmile:

It's called "Autofire" and "Combined Fire" mechanics. The former lets them deal at least a little damage to almost everyone, and the latter lets them still deal damage if there's a Scout jumping into Roguespace (though it's more reasonable for autofire than anything else).

[shadow_archmagi]

I'm glad to see someone likes FFG's EoeEoEEoOe

I thought the Threat and Advantage systems seemed interesting, and definitely would've considered buying it if I had any money ever.

[neonchameleon]

I'm glad to see someone likes FFG's EoeEoEEoOe

I thought the Threat and Advantage systems seemed interesting, and definitely would've considered buying it if I had any money ever.

The really good part of the system is the dice tbh. And unfortunately for all WFRP 3e's other problems, the WFRP dice were better other than on one point (the two levels of challenge dice).

[Ailowynn]

In SAGA 30 Stormtroopers would only do about 100 damage per round to a high level character, perfectly harmless :smalltongue:

The rest of what you wrote is on the other hand quite interesting :smallsmile:

True, but you get the point. How about 30...guys with blaster pistols? It would be impossible for them to do anything, and that's just unrealistic.

(Also, who's to say the character in question doesn't have Evasion? Even with Coordinated Fire, the stormies would only be getting so many hits per turn, and the more that went down the less they would do).

:smalltongue:

[Mando Knight]

True, but you get the point. How about 30...guys with blaster pistols? It would be impossible for them to do anything, and that's just unrealistic.
A standard blaster pistol deals only 3 damage less on average than a standard blaster rifle. Thirty guys with blaster pistols will still be a threat if they combine fire.

(Also, who's to say the character in question doesn't have Evasion? Even with Coordinated Fire, the stormies would only be getting so many hits per turn, and the more that went down the less they would do).
With Coordinated Fire, they can easily split up into firing squads. 12 stormtroopers can team up to hit a level 15 Soldier 50% of the time (which is no mean feat).

High-level Saga isn't Original Trilogy. It's Katarn, Starkiller, and Revan. Obi-Wan as of Episode III was statted out to level 14, and was one of several Jedi that survived an ambush of well over a hundred droids (many of which were far superior to Stormtroopers).

[Ailowynn]

Alright, alright. You got me. (The blaster pistols weren't for damage, they just don't have auto fire.)

[devinebovine]

I have found that EotE is great for getting new players into gaming, and thus helping the hobby grow and stay healthy. I ran a few sessions for co-workers (I'm at a summer camp) who had never touched an RPG before, and some of whom were only passingly familiar with Star Wars (and one counselor barely spoke English). Using the beginner box they were assembling die pools and rolling with very little set-up: the dice are intuitive and flexible, and you can visually see how different effects contribute or hinder the roll. With Advantages and Threats new players were creating interesting and interactive situations, actively contributing to the story and creating memorable scenes. By the end of the night, it felt like we were playing Star Wars. The fun, excitement, and joy of the original trilogy were all there.

I have never played Saga, but have been playing the D6 West End Games system for over a year. This system drips with Star Warsiness, the stuff that began it all. If you like high numbers and complicated stats, this isn't for you. But if you want to tap into what it feels to be a kid again and be Han Solo, you owe it to yourself to check it out.

[Mando Knight]

Alright, alright. You got me. (The blaster pistols weren't for damage, they just don't have auto fire.)

The other thing that can be used to mitigate increased character level is using the squad and battalion rules from Clone Wars. Then even the blaster pistol effectively gets autofire via splash damage. Due to how Aid Another technically works, though, squads aren't as good at supporting each other en masse as a dozen troopers... but by the time you need to step it up to battalions of stormtroopers to threaten PCs, that's when you're supposed to be sending squads of commandos and 501st troopers instead anyway.

[Hopeless]

So any news from GenCon on Age of Rebellion?

I figure all this talk about blasters and combat would make an appearance since they've begun testing the beta rules.

[Alejandro]

As I stated in the other thread, I shopped all over Edge's booth at Gencon. :) I bought several of their awesome starship models (for my Saga game.)

People were buying the second book, but not NEARLY as many as were buying Edge of the Empire last Gencon. While waiting in line to check out, of the conversations I listened to and participated in, the general consensus seemed to be that:

- People didn't want to buy a beta test book a second time
- People didn't want to give them $15 for a set of the special dice
- The core Saga book has material for every type of character present in both of the current Edge books, plus more Jedi material, so where is the gain in switching?
- Art is awesome.

[Hopeless]

As I stated in the other thread, I shopped all over Edge's booth at Gencon. :) I bought several of their awesome starship models (for my Saga game.)

People were buying the second book, but not NEARLY as many as were buying Edge of the Empire last Gencon. While waiting in line to check out, of the conversations I listened to and participated in, the general consensus seemed to be that:

- People didn't want to buy a beta test book a second time
- People didn't want to give them $15 for a set of the special dice
- The core Saga book has material for every type of character present in both of the current Edge books, plus more Jedi material, so where is the gain in switching?
- Art is awesome.

Cool so that leaves the most important detail... what awesome starships did you buy?:smallamused:

Lambda shuttle looked interesting, even considered the Tie Fighter's although what sparked my interest in those was the video showing the Tantive IV model!

Probably pick up Kyle Katarn's ship since other than the Lambda shuttle it looks the most interesting.:smallsmile:

[Alejandro]

Cool so that leaves the most important detail... what awesome starships did you buy?:smallamused:

Lambda shuttle looked interesting, even considered the Tie Fighter's although what sparked my interest in those was the video showing the Tantive IV model!

Probably pick up Kyle Katarn's ship since other than the Lambda shuttle it looks the most interesting.:smallsmile:

I bought the Millennium Falcon, the Lambda shuttle, and that Corellian Hawk fighter ship thingie from Jedi Knight.

[Ailowynn]

To address a few things from Alejandro's post:

-the shuttle is an HWK-290
-the dice are only a few dollars more expensive than a standard pack of seven, and the pack contains 14 dice and some Destiny tokens, so I see it as a pretty good deal
-yes, the art is awesome.

If anyone was wondering about any of that, hopefully it's cleared up a bit now.

[ScubaGoomba]

Sorry if this is a bit of a derailing. Kindly tell me and I'll just make a new thread.

I've actually heard nothing but praise of EotE and, when leafing through the book, thought it was all kinds of excellent. Sadly, brokeass student that I am, I just can't afford it right now and am stuck dealing with Saga (saying that as though this is a bad thing?).

The idea of advantages and threats in your rolling, however, is really cool to me. Has anybody thought of a way to port it over to Saga?

[Ailowynn]

It's difficult to add something like advantage and threat to a d20 system--it's just so different. The closest you could come, I think, would be degrees of success/failure, like in Mutants and Masterminds.

I too had heard nothing but praise, at least in forums other than this one. But I'm only really on the d20radio and FFG forums, so that's to be expected (the former has a podcast on EotE and the latter is the publisher). I think it's a very drastic departure from what most folks are used to; it feels like an Indy game with a lot of resources behind it, not a tactical or mechanics-focused RPG.

[Juhn]

High-level Saga isn't Original Trilogy. It's Katarn, Starkiller, and Revan. Obi-Wan as of Episode III was statted out to level 14, and was one of several Jedi that survived an ambush of well over a hundred droids (many of which were far superior to Stormtroopers).I may be alone here, but I find the idea of inevitably shifting from Original Trilogy feel to Starkiller-tier shenanigans as I go up in level to be a pretty offputting idea.

Star Wars doesn't really tend to do the "start as podunk adventurers, end up as gods" thing.

[Daisuke1133]

It's difficult to add something like advantage and threat to a d20 system--it's just so different. The closest you could come, I think, would be degrees of success/failure, like in Mutants and Masterminds.

Or you could just use Circumstance Bonuses & Penalties. There's no need to go rifling through the mechanics of other systems when the one you have has all the tools you need.

[Mando Knight]

I may be alone here, but I find the idea of inevitably shifting from Original Trilogy feel to Starkiller-tier shenanigans as I go up in level to be a pretty offputting idea.

Star Wars doesn't really tend to do the "start as podunk adventurers, end up as gods" thing.

It kinda does, just over a longer period of time than most players expect. Master Skywalker went from being some farm boy to being one of the most powerful Force users of his time... the characterization of this power level is as annoyingly inconsistent as the power of the Force is throughout the EU, though.

A GM who wants to keep a "gritty" feel is free to slow down or even stop the leveling process, a la the fairly-popular-around-here E6 modification for D&D 3.5.

The real problem of Saga is that while the source materials' power levels are fairly mutable, in d20 they're relatively absolute... a level 10 pilot can't be threatened by any other pilot except if the enemy is in a ridiculous starfighter (i.e. the TIE Defender), the player is in a relative junker (i.e. a stock YT-1300), or the enemy is itself an ace (i.e. you're fighting the 181st and only the 181st, for the rest of your career).

[ScubaGoomba]

Or you could just use Circumstance Bonuses & Penalties. There's no need to go rifling through the mechanics of other systems when the one you have has all the tools you need.

Except when the rules don't do a similar thing. Or when I want to.

[Juhn]

Or you could just use Circumstance Bonuses & Penalties. There's no need to go rifling through the mechanics of other systems when the one you have has all the tools you need.

That's not really how things like Triumph/Threat/Advantage/etc work, though. Circumstance bonuses/penalties in EotE means adding Boost/Setback dice, except d20 has no way of modelling the results of those dice using circumstance bonuses/penalties, since they don't make succeeding at the actual task any easier or more difficult, they add positive or negative consequences to your success/failure, independent of whether you succeeded or failed.

That sort of thing is entirely up to DM fiat in d20, at least IIRC.

[Hopeless]

Sorry if this is a bit of a derailing. Kindly tell me and I'll just make a new thread.

I've actually heard nothing but praise of EotE and, when leafing through the book, thought it was all kinds of excellent. Sadly, brokeass student that I am, I just can't afford it right now and am stuck dealing with Saga (saying that as though this is a bad thing?).

The idea of advantages and threats in your rolling, however, is really cool to me. Has anybody thought of a way to port it over to Saga?

Off the top of my head you could use the result of the check by saying if a character missed the roll by 1-2 they earn a threat and 1-2 over the required roll they have an advantage which they can explain so the critical failed check is the despair and the critical success a triumph.

View it that way and turn the result in a narrative explanation of what happened as long as your gm is willing it should work fine!

[Waar]

With Coordinated Fire, they can easily split up into firing squads. 12 stormtroopers can team up to hit a level 15 Soldier 50% of the time (which is no mean feat).



You do know that the stormtroopers would do more damage if they didn't use coordinated fire, right?
For instance: 1 shot with 50% accuracy (3d8 damage, 3d8*2 on a crit) is an average of 7,4... damage, while 12 shots with 5% accuracy gives an average of 16,2 damage (however this is at the cost of 11 more Dice to roll per round)
The sad truth is that coordinated fire, on its own is "utterly worthless" for anything but reducing the amounts of dice rolls (note that this does only apply when the potential targets would deal as much damage as you would do on a hit :smallwink:)


That's not really how things like Triumph/Threat/Advantage/etc work, though. Circumstance bonuses/penalties in EotE means adding Boost/Setback dice, except d20 has no way of modelling the results of those dice using circumstance bonuses/penalties, since they don't make succeeding at the actual task any easier or more difficult, they add positive or negative consequences to your success/failure, independent of whether you succeeded or failed.

That sort of thing is entirely up to DM fiat in d20, at least IIRC.

Assuming I understod how "Triumph/Threat/Advantage/etc work" correctly, the only way to replcate that in a d20 system would be to roll more than one dice (and establish rules for it etc.)

[shadow_archmagi]

Or you could just use Circumstance Bonuses & Penalties. There's no need to go rifling through the mechanics of other systems when the one you have has all the tools you need.

Except that, as mentioned, that's not what advantage and threat are AT ALL.


Off the top of my head you could use the result of the check by saying if a character missed the roll by 1-2 they earn a threat and 1-2 over the required roll they have an advantage which they can explain so the critical failed check is the despair and the critical success a triumph.

View it that way and turn the result in a narrative explanation of what happened as long as your gm is willing it should work fine!

This is closer, but part of the fun of what I saw was the potential for success+threat and fail+advantage. As I understand it, it's a bit like this:

Action: Trying to hotwire a hovercar for a quick getaway.
Success: You activate the engine and gain control of the vehicle.
Failure: You do not.
Threat: You activate the alarm system.
Advantage: While you're down there, you find the owner's wallet!

Threats and Advantages can happen independently of successes and failures. Think about that scene in New Hope where they're fleeing stormtroopers and they run through a door and then shoot the control panel to prevent it from being opened, only to realize that they *also* just shot the bridge-extension controls and are trapped. Original Trilogy characters tend to be a little putzy.

[Seatbelt]

Dear Gamers. You have spent a lifetime building up a collection of dice to play games with. So out of respect for you, we've decided that your dice collection can suck it and you can buy ours instead.

Sincerely, FFG.



:P

[Alejandro]

Dear Gamers. You have spent a lifetime building up a collection of dice to play games with. So out of respect for you, we've decided that your dice collection can suck it and you can buy ours instead.

Sincerely, FFG.



:P

Yes, that is pretty much exactly what I heard people saying in line. Making everyone buy special dice just to play your game = money grab.

[Hopeless]

Yes, that is pretty much exactly what I heard people saying in line. Making everyone buy special dice just to play your game = money grab.

Isn't that also what they said about both of the Betas'?:smallredface:

[Alejandro]

Isn't that also what they said about both of the Betas'?:smallredface:

Well, my personal opinion is they're trying to get people to buy these beta books to drum up the extra cash to publish the actual finished game, for which they will charge even more and I am sure there will be no kickback or reward offered to those already owning paid-for beta copies (or they would have tracked such from the beginning.) I would have used a Kickstarter style model where people who support the game can make contributions toward it, and the more you contribute, the more you receive (some dice, some ship minis, the beta books, the finished books, etc.)

Pretty smart, really, if you can con people into paying for the development of your game, then get them to pay you for the game when it's finished.

[Hopeless]

The bit I actually like about being suckered for that is that there are differences between the Beta and the Core rulebook.

Might not be worth the overall cost but looking over at the Star Wars Miniatures line they've produced and I'm left thinking maybe I got more for my money (sorry about that, but I still have difficulty how paying effectively £30 for 3 ships is actually a good deal but it certainly is popular regardless)

[Alejandro]

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate them personally. Anyone making decent, Jar Jar free Star Wars material is a good thing. I'm just not giving them my money for their books :)

[DDogwood]

Pretty smart, really, if you can con people into paying for the development of your game, then get them to pay you for the game when it's finished.

"Con" people? Really?

You may not like how FFG is marketing their stuff, but calling it a "con" is ridiculous. They are being very up-front about the Beta stuff. They aren't forcing anyone to buy it, they are simply relying in the fact that many people are happy to pay money for a chance to see the materials early. They are also getting the rules out early enough for the wider community to provide some feedback. Personally, I suspect that the feedback will be of mixed quality, but there's nothing wrong with FFG generating some buzz for their products.

Also, in case you're struggling with basic economics, customers pay for the development of EVERY game unless the game fails to make money. The Star Wars license isn't cheap, so of course the people at FFG are milking it for all they can. They aren't morons, and they are in this to make money, not to give us free stuff.

Personally, I'm not planning on buying the Beta books. I was skeptical about the system, too - I never liked any of the d20 Star Wars games, including Saga, and I figured that my old WEG stuff still worked just fine. I picked up the Beginner Box because some of my students wanted to try Star Wars roleplaying (and I didn't want to leave my WEG books with them, because they're not easy to replace), and I found that I actually really like the system. It's not perfect but it's very good, and IMO a vast improvement over the WotC books.

However, even though I didn't like the WotC stuff, I didn't feel the need to complain about the fact that Wizards, like FFG, did everything they could to milk the license for every penny of profit.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Dear Gamers. You have spent a lifetime building up a collection of dice to play games with. So out of respect for you, we've decided that your dice collection can suck it and you can buy ours instead.

Sincerely, FFG.



:P
You could technically say that about the early days of RPGs, what with TSR producing these specialized dice to use for your game. Found primarily in the boxed set of the game.

And there's only three major types of dice groups that a gamer might have, if the sole purpose of their dice-collecting is to have enough dice for games.

One: D&D dice, a set of six polyhedrals which together comprise the entirety of dice needed for D&D; you may need an extra d6 or two, and an extra d8. Higher-level D&D in later editions changes this, forcing you to buy extra dice for higher damage abilities and spells. The horror.

Two: Shadowrun dice pools, also found in some other games: a bunch of d6s. (Can anyone give a good example of a mainstream RPG that uses d6 dice pools, beyond SR? It's not coming to mind at the moment.)

Three: World of Darkness/Exalted dice pools, a bunch of d10s.

So if you have the six D&D dice, 10-15 d10s, and maybe 20-30 d6s, you most definitely have enough dice for most of those. Except for Shadowrun. But that's because Shadowrun clearly collaborates with Chessex and other d6 manufacturers. :smalltongue: Other than that, you can collect those 20ish dice over a pretty short span of time. A few months, or maybe a year, if you collect 'em slow.

Let's be honest; if you've spent a lifetime collecting dice, you're doing it to collect dice. Which means that the EotE dice are a new, vibrant thing to add to your collection. :smallwink:

[Alejandro]

I'm sorry if I made you so upset. Generally, when I said 'con', I was referring to all the people at Gencon last year (not this year) who had never heard of Edge of the Empire until they saw FFG's booth and the shiny stacks of books. Absolute mobs of them waited in line (I know, I was in the line) and picked up their copy.

Now, some saw and realized that it said 'Beta' on the cover, but FFG certainly wasn't promoting it that way. It was 'holy crap, be the first to own the new Star Wars table top RPG!' The only way the random con-goer knew it wasn't even a finished product was the word Beta on the cover, and no one realized that this particular book was only going to talk about games with one kind of character (scoundrels and smugglers) unless they had played in one of the playtests at Gencon (as I did.)

So, that is what people were upset about. Finding out the book was:

1. a beta
2. much less content than expected for the $50 it cost.

I think more people realized what to expect this year, which is why I saw far fewer people buying the Rebellion beta books and more people buying X-wing ship minis or their other products.

Also, what do you teach, and I played WEG D6 Star Wars for a long time, and those books are indeed sometimes hard to find!

[Alejandro]

You could technically say that about the early days of RPGs, what with TSR producing these specialized dice to use for your game. Found primarily in the boxed set of the game.

And there's only three major types of dice groups that a gamer might have, if the sole purpose of their dice-collecting is to have enough dice for games.

One: D&D dice, a set of six polyhedrals which together comprise the entirety of dice needed for D&D; you may need an extra d6 or two, and an extra d8. Higher-level D&D in later editions changes this, forcing you to buy extra dice for higher damage abilities and spells. The horror.

Two: Shadowrun dice pools, also found in some other games: a bunch of d6s. (Can anyone give a good example of a mainstream RPG that uses d6 dice pools, beyond SR? It's not coming to mind at the moment.)

Three: World of Darkness/Exalted dice pools, a bunch of d10s.

So if you have the six D&D dice, 10-15 d10s, and maybe 20-30 d6s, you most definitely have enough dice for most of those. Except for Shadowrun. But that's because Shadowrun clearly collaborates with Chessex and other d6 manufacturers. :smalltongue: Other than that, you can collect those 20ish dice over a pretty short span of time. A few months, or maybe a year, if you collect 'em slow.

Let's be honest; if you've spent a lifetime collecting dice, you're doing it to collect dice. Which means that the EotE dice are a new, vibrant thing to add to your collection. :smallwink:

You make very valid points. Except I cannot use the FFG Star Wars dice for anything else except playing FFG Star Wars, while my regular dice bag, collected over the years, is good for D&D, WoD, Shadowrun, Savage Worlds, or pretty much anything else I want to play. :)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

You make very valid points. Except I cannot use the FFG Star Wars dice for anything else except playing FFG Star Wars, while my regular dice bag, collected over the years, is good for D&D, WoD, Shadowrun, Savage Worlds, or pretty much anything else I want to play. :)
Well, depending. You can't really use all your Shadowrun dice for Savage Worlds or World of Darkness, nor can you use your World of Darkness dice for D&D. I mean, sure, you can use a d6 or d10, but the massive-dice-pool games really require you to get their own set of dice. One or two dice doesn't really swing the difference there. :smallsmile: Each of those games represents its own sort of dice specialization. (Really, the only intercompatability there is between Savage Worlds and D&D, which do use the same dice.)

So yeah; there's technically a little more overlap between a standard dice pool system and a regular "roll a particular die" system, but there's not much, so I don't think of it as having a huge difference. The EotE dice are specialized, but not overly so in comparison to other things. I guess the main gist of it is--when you put it in context with your whole dice collection, it's not really that massive of a deal, and there's cool new dice to play with.

(I'm also a boardgamer, and none of the boardgames I own are inter-compatible, so that probably influences me too.)

[Philistine]

"Con" people? Really?

You may not like how FFG is marketing their stuff, but calling it a "con" is ridiculous. They are being very up-front about the Beta stuff. They aren't forcing anyone to buy it, they are simply relying in the fact that many people are happy to pay money for a chance to see the materials early. They are also getting the rules out early enough for the wider community to provide some feedback. Personally, I suspect that the feedback will be of mixed quality, but there's nothing wrong with FFG generating some buzz for their products.

Also, in case you're struggling with basic economics, customers pay for the development of EVERY game unless the game fails to make money. The Star Wars license isn't cheap, so of course the people at FFG are milking it for all they can. They aren't morons, and they are in this to make money, not to give us free stuff.

Personally, I'm not planning on buying the Beta books. I was skeptical about the system, too - I never liked any of the d20 Star Wars games, including Saga, and I figured that my old WEG stuff still worked just fine. I picked up the Beginner Box because some of my students wanted to try Star Wars roleplaying (and I didn't want to leave my WEG books with them, because they're not easy to replace), and I found that I actually really like the system. It's not perfect but it's very good, and IMO a vast improvement over the WotC books.

However, even though I didn't like the WotC stuff, I didn't feel the need to complain about the fact that Wizards, like FFG, did everything they could to milk the license for every penny of profit.
Charging people money to do your QA for you may not technically be a "con," given full disclosure (though see Alejandro's anecdote above), it is nevertheless deeply and profoundly skeezy. QA is a job you pay people to do, not charge people to do. If your in-house QA team isn't up to the task, then you have a couple of options before you get to "charge people New Gamebook prices for an incomplete, unfinished version of the rules - and then charge them full price for the completed version as well." And while an Open Beta might not be possible depending on the terms of the license, it certainly should be possible to provide your beta testers with discounted (perhaps all the way down to Free) copies straight from the initial print run of the finished product.

So, no. I'm not going to be picking up Edge of Empire. Ever. Or anything else FFG puts out, for that matter. Any company that needs to pull that kind of crap to survive, doesn't deserve to.

[Mando Knight]

You could technically say that about the early days of RPGs, what with TSR producing these specialized dice to use for your game. Found primarily in the boxed set of the game.

And there's only three major types of dice groups that a gamer might have, if the sole purpose of their dice-collecting is to have enough dice for games.

One: D&D dice, a set of six polyhedrals which together comprise the entirety of dice needed for D&D; you may need an extra d6 or two, and an extra d8. Higher-level D&D in later editions changes this, forcing you to buy extra dice for higher damage abilities and spells. The horror.

Two: Shadowrun dice pools, also found in some other games: a bunch of d6s. (Can anyone give a good example of a mainstream RPG that uses d6 dice pools, beyond SR? It's not coming to mind at the moment.)

Three: World of Darkness/Exalted dice pools, a bunch of d10s.

So if you have the six D&D dice, 10-15 d10s, and maybe 20-30 d6s, you most definitely have enough dice for most of those. Except for Shadowrun. But that's because Shadowrun clearly collaborates with Chessex and other d6 manufacturers. :smalltongue: Other than that, you can collect those 20ish dice over a pretty short span of time. A few months, or maybe a year, if you collect 'em slow.
The problem with FFG's dice is that they're also expensive. I recently played a White Wolf game for the first time, and needed to buy a half-dozen or so d10s to get enough dice to make do. It cost me maybe $3, total. The FFG dice cost $13+ for just 14 dice.

Because of wargames that also use buckets of d6s, Shadowrun's 30-ish d6s are also relatively cheap.

[Juhn]

I will note that FFG reproduces the dice conversion chart in essentially every material they print for the game, so you CAN just use your regular D&D dice if you don't mind checking the chart when you roll (which, depending on which edition of D&D you play, you may be used to checking against charts a lot).

You don't HAVE to buy their dice, it just makes things easier.

Just like you don't HAVE to buy White Wolf's fancy dice where the "success" numbers are a different colour from the "failure" numbers, it just makes things easier.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I guess it might be my financial position, but relatively speaking--their dice don't strike me as being that spendy. I mean, RPGs as a whole are one of the cheaper hobbies out there, and even FFG's stuff pales next to what other hobbies shell out.

[shadow_archmagi]

Dear Gamers. You have spent a lifetime building up a collection of dice to play games with. So out of respect for you, we've decided that your dice collection can suck it and you can buy ours instead.

Sincerely, FFG.


Personally, my magpie like instincts are delighted by the prospect of a NEW hedron to hoard.


I guess it might be my financial position, but relatively speaking--their dice don't strike me as being that spendy. I mean, RPGs as a whole are one of the cheaper hobbies out there, and even FFG's stuff pales next to what other hobbies shell out.

This is also true. 15 dollars won't buy you a single plastic Imperial Guardsman if you're in the wargaming game.

[Ailowynn]

On advantage/threat in d20: the advantage/threat axis is completely different from the success/failure axis, which is one of the most unique and cinematic aspects of the game.

On the dice: I get it, but I don't think it's a great reason not to get into the game. A nice seven-die set costs around $10. The EotE packs come with FOURTEEN dice and four destiny tokens for $15. And there are alternatives like using the dice tables in the book, buying blank dice and writing your own symbols on, picking up the app, buying the free "Empire Dice" app (independent creator), or using the roller on orokos.com. Again, I urge you to try this game, which you can do for free if you get the free rpg day adventure, and then decide whether this is worth it.

On the beta: FFG charges for most of their betas, which I don't agree with. However, the reason that they can't create a cheaper, PDF beta is that Lucas considers PDFs (aside from non-rules-related supplements) to be electronic content, and FFG doesn't have the license for that.



As I said in my original post, yes, it is expensive for an RPG. But you definitely get your money's worth. I had many of these worries in my mind when I saw the beta at my FLGS, but, as a Star Wars gamer, I decided I needed to at least try it; and that has payed off.

This, I guess, is the statement I've been trying to make: Saga is a d20 game, while Edge of the Empire is a Star Wars game.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Fourteen dice for $15...I hadn't realized there were so many dice. That basically runs a little cheaper than buying fourteen loose dice from the premium bin at my FLGS.

[DDogwood]

I'm sorry if I made you so upset. Generally, when I said 'con', I was referring to all the people at Gencon last year (not this year) who had never heard of Edge of the Empire until they saw FFG's booth and the shiny stacks of books. Absolute mobs of them waited in line (I know, I was in the line) and picked up their copy.

Now, some saw and realized that it said 'Beta' on the cover, but FFG certainly wasn't promoting it that way.

Hmm, since I wasn't at GenCon, I didn't know about this. Still, I'm inclined to chalk it up as a "miscommunication" rather than a "con".


Also, what do you teach, and I played WEG D6 Star Wars for a long time, and those books are indeed sometimes hard to find!

In theory I'm a Social Studies teacher, but I spend almost as much time teaching English Language Arts, Drama, and now Business and Leadership, apparently.

[Hopeless]

I'm sorry if I made you so upset. Generally, when I said 'con', I was referring to all the people at Gencon last year (not this year) who had never heard of Edge of the Empire until they saw FFG's booth and the shiny stacks of books. Absolute mobs of them waited in line (I know, I was in the line) and picked up their copy.

I think more people realized what to expect this year, which is why I saw far fewer people buying the Rebellion beta books and more people buying X-wing ship minis or their other products.

Also, what do you teach, and I played WEG D6 Star Wars for a long time, and those books are indeed sometimes hard to find!

Bought more Star Wars d6 books this year or any year following the release of the Darkstryder Campaign so yes, I consider myself very lucky to find them and they're well worth it as I think they're easier to port over than d20.

Will I buy the AoR Beta?

Of course and I hope they do a great job with it and as for people realising what FFG means when they're releasing a Beta seems to be clear because there's been little response from those that have bought them.

Makes me wonder how long before we get a token version of the Star Wars starship game?

[Stoney]

Wow guys, custom dice? Splatbooks just for the base classes? How far we've fallen.

Actually, I'm in the process of acquiring EotE, because I am really curious to see it. Looks like only one core book in the present edition, but that does sound like a lot of marketing gimmicks that you guys went through to get a first peek at it. And I sympathize, because if I had been at that GenCon I'd have totally nerded out over a new SW setting book and bought like 18 copies.

I used to play WotC's Revised Core Rulebook edition of Star Wars a few years back, and then was fairly appalled by Saga when it came out. It had some ideas that seemed cleaner, like getting rid of some of those base classes nobody cared about, and making skills easier, but it completely stomped all over the Force system. In my opinion it's not ranged shooting tables that are the problem with Saga, it's the fact that each and every Force power is a 1/encounter power. A completely stagnant and draconian cop-out.

Savage Heroes' Savage Star Wars Conversion 6.0 (http://www.savageheroes.com/conversions/Savage-Star-Wars-6.0.pdf)
Max Velocity's Savage Star Wars Conversion (http://max.velocity.home.comcast.net/~max.velocity/files/SavageStarWars_Brown.pdf)

Note: If I'm derailing I'll make a new thread, but I'm just trying to argue for a specific mechanic as superior for a spells or Force powers system, system independent.

Why migrate to yet another new setting? Because Savage Worlds is a homebrewer's setting. It's cheap (one book), and you get power points regardless of the world you're playing in. Think about it, guys. Every major video game, WoW, and the good RPGs use a system of power points that you spend and get back. It's up to the GM how fast your pool regenerates, but it's the most widespread system out there because it works the best, and it's the most durable of all. You have some power that does some stuff, and it costs maybe 1 or 3 or 5 PP, and your pool has between 10-20 PP starting out, and maybe you regenerate 1 PP every round, or every other round, and so forth.

This allows you to limit "encounter" powers by making them cost a lot (but you can cast them a lot more at higher levels), and makes other lower-cost powers virtually at will.

Now maybe I'm about to be pleasantly surprised with the EotE rules regarding The Force, or maybe I'm about to get more of the same old garbage.

Fingers crossed.

[Hopeless]

Wow guys, custom dice? Splatbooks just for the base classes? How far we've fallen.

Note: If I'm derailing I'll make a new thread, but I'm just trying to argue for a specific mechanic as superior for a spells or Force powers system, system independent.

Now maybe I'm about to be pleasantly surprised with the EotE rules regarding The Force, or maybe I'm about to get more of the same old garbage.

Fingers crossed.

Yes I've been curious about Savage Worlds but not too sure about the system since I've run it once and think I've made a few mistakes along the way.

I've yet to see a proper example of the Force being used in the new Star Wars system so I can't compare the difference save for wondering how to handle a character falling to the darkside...

Let us know what you think about both of them, it'll be interesting to see how they fare against each other.

[Alejandro]

Our group plays/has played both Saga and Savage Worlds. We decided that Savage Worlds did not have the detail we wanted for a Star Wars game, while Saga did. That said, Savage Worlds is a good system, it's just meant for generic games at its best, not something very specific like Star Wars.

I can see where some might not like how Force powers are handled in Saga, but I have never had anyone bothered by it in the Saga game I run. There are so many ways to both powergame your Force powers, or get more uses of them repeatedly, that we actually use some houserules to tone down Force users, rather than need to help them.

[Stoney]

Waveyourgeekflag's EotE Dice Roller (http://waveyourgeekflag.blogspot.com/2013/02/dice-roller-for-edge-of-empire.html)

Note: My criticisms are based on a first look-through of the beta, I'm still in the process of getting the main book, but from what I understand from research online it's essentially the same deal, no Jedi careers yet.

EotE at a Glance

EotE is a system with a lot of advantages. I know this because they were awesome in a lot of other great rulesets. The Soak rules they took out of Savage Worlds (but there are others I think that have this mechanic), and the idea of buying everything for your character like specializations and talents with XP is a great little mechanic similar to the one in Eclipse Phase (though the one in EP is far more versatile and broad-ranged; in this setting, you can buy your character additional bodies, any gear, skills, you name it with the XP point-buying system).

The core mechanic is kind of interesting, I admit, with not only successes and failures, but also Advantage and Threat, as well as Triumph/Despair, with all kinds of interesting interactions with abilities and circumstances that could potentially make action scenes particularly interesting.

I honestly don't know why they included careers to box in the specializations, they could easily have just scrapped careers and given 18 specialization talent trees to build your character, but it's not that restrictive. From what I understand, you get 1 free spec when you start (2 if you're Human), and then you can buy more (3 maximum) for 5 XP (within your career) or 10 XP (outside your career).

EotE Force Mechanics Critique

I never give credit for unfinished work, and that's just what EotE is: unfinished. And it of course leaves out the most important and interesting part of Star Wars that everybody obsesses about and that makes Star Wars distinct from every other sci-fi setting: The Jedi (and Sith). I guess this means that anyone complaining about it should remember that it's not done yet, but I think enough of the system has come through for us to see some important warning signs.

"Most Force sensitives use their Force powers through a variant of Edge of the Empire's core mechanic, assembling a dice pool and rolling it to see if the power resolves successfully. However, unlike most skill checks, Force power checks do not generate successes. Instead they generate resources that are spent to fuel a power's effects." (p. 178)

Yikes. This basically means I don't even get a pool to fuel powers, I have to roll every time. If I don't get any light points, I have to spend a Destiny light point (if there are any available) to fuel my powers with the dark side (and any consequences that might have). Even assuming I'm Yoda and I have 5 Force dice, that doesn't guarantee I'll be able to activate even one of the most basic powers, like Sense. Pretty much all the powers I saw in there require at least one LP to activate their basic uses, but there's no guarantee you'll have the one LP to spend.

Now since there is no set of careers for Jedi/Sith, there's no way to know if they'll get a special option to activate powers without having to roll, or will get a pool to start. I sure hope they will! The idea of Yoda not being able to perform an action, or worse, having to call on the dark side because that's all there is to spend, seems a little ridiculous.

Just to reinforce how important this is, Jedi/Sith make the setting. Sorry, but they just do. Battlestar Galactica has pretty much everything in Star Wars save the Force, and we could rattle off other sci-fi settings until we're blue in the face that have blaster pistols, neat ships, and ugly-lookin' aliens.

Ironically, LucasArts created a more Star Wars setting than the original Star Wars trilogy with KOTOR, an era of lots of Jedi, lots of Sith, all killing each other. Even the prequels aren't as fun, because there's a bunch of Jedi and only 2 Sith at a time. This is the FFG splatbook I'll be waiting for.

Conclusion

Some cool ideas mechanically in EotE, but for a player/GM like me, who ultimately looks at the Force system as the ultimate criterion for whether I can actually use the ruleset, I'm just not sure it passes muster.

Ultimately, you have to weigh the interesting mechanics of the system against the learning curve, the expense of 3 core books and the weird dice, and the possibility that the Force system will be woefully inadequate. Can you imagine playing Diablo, or any of the iconic Jedi Knight games, if you had to roll for the possibility to fuel any of your awesome powers? No way.

[Ailowynn]

Now maybe I'm about to be pleasantly surprised with the EotE rules regarding The Force, or maybe I'm about to get more of the same old garbage.

The Force is pretty cool in EotE. You won't get anything like Force lightning or negate energy (yet), but the basic powers function pretty well. There's a talent tree for each one (Move, Sense, and Influence); spending more XP gives you more control over the powers. Activating one requires you to roll Force dice equal to your Force Rating. Each die can generate light side or dark side points; light side points can activate powers, while dark ones can't (at least, not without repercussions).

[Stoney]

I can see where some might not like how Force powers are handled in Saga, but I have never had anyone bothered by it in the Saga game I run. There are so many ways to both powergame your Force powers, or get more uses of them repeatedly, that we actually use some houserules to tone down Force users, rather than need to help them.

I think they're powerful enough, or maybe even too powerful. My point is that you have limited choice over when you get to use them in Saga. You have a Force Jump card. You use it in the encounter, and you don't get it again (unless the GM breaks the rules for you, or you spend a Force point, or similar). What does this mean practically for your character? That they can't Force Jump again because they already did that? What is my character's motivation for not jumping again in a long chase scene, it would be too cliche?

You'll never solve the over-poweredness of the Force, except maybe by making some OP technology for your non-Force players to match. Force Jump is nothing against, say, a jetpack with a mini-repulsorlift. But as long as you have the Force in your game, it might as well make some kind of logical sense. Saga rules governing number of usages per encounter make absolutely no sense.

[Alejandro]

Some of the criticism of how Saga does Force powers is valid, I will grant that. It is a gamist way to handle something that is shown as having no real limits onscreen in a movie.

That said, don't forget there are a lot of ways to get Force powers back in Saga.

- Rolling a 20 on a Use the Force check restores all your powers
- Spend a Force Point to restore a power (and there are ways to get said Force points back after the encounter ends, making this, in a limited way, free to do)
- A talent that lets you take a full round action to get back one power, with no limits other than time
- Various other talents/feats that restore powers or grant extra uses of them, especially once you are a Jedi Knight/Master Sith Apprentice/Lord.

[Stoney]

Some of the criticism of how Saga does Force powers is valid, I will grant that. It is a gamist way to handle something that is shown as having no real limits onscreen in a movie.

Yes, now that's the word I was lookin' for man! They're gamist! Those gamist sons of mothers at WOTC.

Now here's a system I would love to see ported to an RPG. The TOR system, which is itself largely a variant of WoW's system. Now I despise WoW obviously, as grinding bores me to tears, but the fundamental mechanics are hard to argue with.

You have hit points and skill/power/whatchamacallit points. There are clearly defined party roles for you in combat, regardless of what you can do outside of combat. You're a healer, a tank, a dps, and maybe CC could be said to be the fourth role, but this role is fairly spread out and most classes have interrupts or CCs. You have talent trees that augment or unlock new abilities.

No matter how much of a negotiator or a scholar you are, ultimately your character has to be able to do something in combat, it's just something that happens inevitably in Star Wars. The other ingenious benefit of solidifying roles like this is that it somewhat levels the playing field, solving the old problem of "non-Forcers aren't powerful enuff!!!!!1111"

It doesn't step on anything like creativity, or having a cool new positive dice negative dice mechanic, all that can still happen. It just gives every talent or ability one consistent mechanic, regardless of where it comes from.

It doesn't matter whether you're a healer because you're a super-cool Jedi or because you have a backpack full of stims, synthflesh, and bacta (or kolto, as it's called in the KOTOR universe). Technology and the Force can be used to accomplish the same ends most of the time. Things are perfectly balanced.

TOR should be the flagship for merging excellent playability/balance with staying true to the genre and making it feel like Star Wars.

It seems to me like the guy (or company) who can make this system into a full-fledged tabletop system is in a position to make barrels of money.

[Thrysierius]

The other ingenious benefit of solidifying roles like this is that it somewhat levels the playing field, solving the old problem of "non-Forcers aren't powerful enuff!!!!!1111"

Seriously... This old adage again? I can tell you for a fact in Saga that's not true. If anything, the non-Force users in our party are WAY more effective in combat (the gunslinger alone has a +14 to hit at level 9 with all his feats and talents).

[Ailowynn]

EotE Force Mechanics Critique

I never give credit for unfinished work, and that's just what EotE is: unfinished. And it of course leaves out the most important and interesting part of Star Wars that everybody obsesses about and that makes Star Wars distinct from every other sci-fi setting: The Jedi (and Sith). I guess this means that anyone complaining about it should remember that it's not done yet, but I think enough of the system has come through for us to see some important warning signs.
.

I know you know some of what I'm about to write, but I want to put this out there because I am sick of people saying that the system isn't complete, especially the people who seem to focus entirely on the fact that you can't bust out absurd Force powers with it.

I feel that Edge of the Empire, is, in fact, the exact opposite of unfinished. It is amazingly detailed. The book is a hefty tome, and that's just so that FFG was satisfied with the information on that section of the universe alone. If "Star Wars" means "epic Force use" to you, buy Force and Destiny instead of EotE. This is why they split the books up: so that everyone could buy the book that covered the aspect of Star Wars that meant the most to each individual person. I realize that that was a controversial decision, and that ten people are about to say that it's stupid that they should have to buy all of these books to have all of Star Wars. But the dedication to producing a complete volume is admirable; if "complete" means that they should sacrifice all the details that give each part of Star Wars a unique feel, then "complete" is not truly complete.

What's more, EotE takes the Force back to its core. It takes it back to a mystical energy field, with no hard and fast definitions. It brings back the basics of the Force, before the medichlorians ruined it and it became a scientific index of individual powers. Each power tree has a broad scope, and each one evokes the feeling of the powers seen in the Original Trilogy. When Force and Destiny comes out, we'll see the epic Force powers we want, detailed in full, and in a way that evokes the true feeling of the Force. I'm sure of this because of the level of detail I saw in the Edge of the Empire book, and because this is what the fans want from that book.


And finally, despite common belief, the system can be used for other eras. Just throw in a bit of homebrew. And if you don't want to do that yourself, or don't have the time, here (http://gsa.thegamernation.org/2012/10/31/star-wars-edge-of-the-empire-the-unofficial-species-menagerie-2-0/) are (http://jedimorningfire.blogspot.com/2013/07/ways-of-force-version-103.html) just (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3t9yBcxLMZsVEI0by1tcDNvTk0/edit) a few (https://www.dropbox.com/s/jyec2b6wt6uinpd/JediCareer_v2.4.pdf) options (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9600405/Force%20Devotee%20Specialization.pdf). And yes, I know you're saying that you shouldn't have to homebrew these things, they should be in the book, etc, etc, go and reread this post.

[Dienekes]

I think they're powerful enough, or maybe even too powerful. My point is that you have limited choice over when you get to use them in Saga. You have a Force Jump card. You use it in the encounter, and you don't get it again (unless the GM breaks the rules for you, or you spend a Force point, or similar). What does this mean practically for your character? That they can't Force Jump again because they already did that? What is my character's motivation for not jumping again in a long chase scene, it would be too cliche?

You'll never solve the over-poweredness of the Force, except maybe by making some OP technology for your non-Force players to match. Force Jump is nothing against, say, a jetpack with a mini-repulsorlift. But as long as you have the Force in your game, it might as well make some kind of logical sense. Saga rules governing number of usages per encounter make absolutely no sense.

What amuses me about this post is that, I completely agree the Saga rules for the Force don't model the Force as it's talked about in the setting. They do function for the game, and in my mind function very well. But you're criticism is completely and totally valid.

The amusing bit is despite this, the rules really do model how the Force is actually shown in the movies. Really, Jedi will do a move in part of a fight and then not do it again when it would be useful all the time. The two major exceptions I can think of is Sideous' Force lightning and Yoda the eternal Force Jumper, both of which can be explained away as just getting the powers several times and being high enough level that they can regain spent Force powers easily.

[Stoney]

When Force and Destiny comes out, we'll see the epic Force powers we want, detailed in full, and in a way that evokes the true feeling of the Force.

Yeah, Ailowynn, that's all fine and dandy, but it's such a looooong wait :( Force and Destiny I've heard tell on the FFG forums won't be out until 2015. 2015! Book 2 concerning the Rebellion and the Empire comes out Q4 of this year supposedly, but after that it will be a long while until Force and Destiny even comes out.

I actually agree with you about the level of detail. Detail is a good thing. Well-drawn talent trees, a coherent skill system that makes sense (separating light and heavy ranged skills, and planetary and space piloting, is quite a good idea) all go to EotE's benefit.

But we're not talking about insanely powerful Force Users. We're talking about making a Level 1 Jedi Padawan, the way you could make in plain old Revised Core Star Wars d20. Maybe you start out with a training saber, or a big old baseball bat. Separating eras/content was a controversial move; it just means we have to wait longer before the setting is finished. And yes, if you have to homebrew a -Jedi- into a Star Wars setting, it can be said to be unfinished. There's no way to marginalize or understate the importance of the Jedi and Sith traditions to the Star Wars genre.

If Jedi're going to be missing for 2 years after the initial core rulebook comes out, well, that is something of a hassle for the eager-to-play gamer :/ I hope what comes out in Force and Destiny is worth the wait though, and I will read through it faithfully once it comes out.

[Stoney]

Seriously... This old adage again? I can tell you for a fact in Saga that's not true. If anything, the non-Force users in our party are WAY more effective in combat (the gunslinger alone has a +14 to hit at level 9 with all his feats and talents).

Heh, then I think you're saying the same thing, but in reverse. I don't know which is true or who's more overpowered in Saga, but I think that the TOR system solves the problem either way.

If anyone else things it would be interesting and worth it to collaborate on a free, open system for Star Wars based on TOR/WoW, or an open system more generally for fantasy and sci-fi, I'd certainly love to chat about it.

[Alejandro]

Heh, then I think you're saying the same thing, but in reverse. I don't know which is true or who's more overpowered in Saga, but I think that the TOR system solves the problem either way.

If anyone else things it would be interesting and worth it to collaborate on a free, open system for Star Wars based on TOR/WoW, or an open system more generally for fantasy and sci-fi, I'd certainly love to chat about it.

I am Thryserius's Saga GM, and he is correct. The party gunslinger dishes out more actual enemy-destroying punishment than any of the party Jedi, which include both Force-mage and lightsaber flavor Jedi.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I'm actually mildly curious...if FFG had initially released rules for Jedi, I wonder how many people would've complained "Ugh, the same Star Wars, not even trying to give us anything innovative."

[MeeposFire]

What amuses me about this post is that, I completely agree the Saga rules for the Force don't model the Force as it's talked about in the setting. They do function for the game, and in my mind function very well. But you're criticism is completely and totally valid.

The amusing bit is despite this, the rules really do model how the Force is actually shown in the movies. Really, Jedi will do a move in part of a fight and then not do it again when it would be useful all the time. The two major exceptions I can think of is Sideous' Force lightning and Yoda the eternal Force Jumper, both of which can be explained away as just getting the powers several times and being high enough level that they can regain spent Force powers easily.

Seriously why don't most of them spam the useful stuff all the time? Oh wait that would be dramatically boring just like it would be in a game.

And heck if they wanted to you could make talents that would mimic what Yoda and Sideous do though the lightning one would take work to make a continuous ability like that balanced in any sort of way.

People also forget how short most combats are in game. I know of people in saga that have made force users that cannot use all of their force powers in one encounter.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Y'know, it's a flimsy headcanon justification that isn't actually mentioned in the movies, but what about "predictability"? You can only use a technique once in a fight because when you try and use it again, your enemy's looking for it and can resist or interfere with it.

[Mando Knight]

People also forget how short most combats are in game. I know of people in saga that have made force users that cannot use all of their force powers in one encounter.

It might take hours around the table to resolve, but if your combat is 5 rounds long, that's thirty seconds in-game.

[Stoney]

Well, FFG or anyone else can hardly make all of us happy if we all want different things.

I consider myself somewhat of a purist. I could easily sum up what I want from an RPG's crunch, and more specifically Star Wars, in terms of the following:


Regenerative health & abilities: I want my character to have a hit point pool and potentially with the aid of a healer be able to get back up to full health. Similarly, I want him to be able to use his abilities freely, with each drawing from a central pool of power points, whether I'm a Doctor, Wizard, Shaman, Jedi, Warrior, Meat Popsicle, or Sniper. The points regenerate over time, just as health does. The rate of this regeneration has a default in the game, but the GM can easily modify it for higher/lower power campaigns.
Roles: Something in the rules should explicitly tell me "this is the tank career, this is DPS, this is heal, these are your CCs, etc." Many of the talent trees in EotE enhance things like Mechanics if you're a Techie, but if you're in combat you might not get a chance to use that quickly enough. Every career and talent tree should have clear combat applications.
Levels: I should know that I get my first main damage dealer at 1st level, my CC at 6th level, etc. Now this might be levels in a class/career, or it could simply be a free ability granted by having a certain number of talents within a specific tree.
Regular Combat Rules: Basically the system that's evolved over the past 10 years as it is now. Round-based combat, turns within rounds, initiative order, free, move/maneuver actions, and combat/attack actions. Various special moves like attacks of opportunity, and all the various advantages and disadvantages, mediated either through modifiers or dice, given by cover, being prone, charging, running, defending, etc.
Attributes/Derived Atts/Skills/Talents/Gear: Ultimately, everything in your character should come down to these 5 things in-game. The one major change I would suggest for EotE is that Talents be regularized for -every- class, and that the Force not be made "its own thing with special dice and special rules." Everything in the system should be internally consistent, with talents that activate, take power points as fuel, and produce real combat results, whether you're a Jedi or a Sniper. Non-combat talents are also cool, but usually all they do is modify the application of skills, and don't require power points to fuel. Maybe there should even be separate trees for combat and non-combat talents, or a player should be mandated to take both combat and non-combat talents.

Think about it guys. We've -already- been moving in this direction in our RPG systems for ten or more years, now let's just finish the thought process! Remember Revised Core Rules Star Wars d20, when it was Feats/Class Abilities/Force skills/Force Feats/Force Class Abilities? Saga consolidated Force powers into one type of thing, dependent on a Use the Force skill check. Now we're being told in EotE that everything is Combat Skills, Talents, and Force Powers. Just finish consolidating and make everything part of the Combat Skills or Talents system.

Welcome to the end of the thought process.

Other than those things, you can include random rules like Motivations and Obligations that govern the overall flow of a session and RP opportunities, as opposed to hard combat mechanics. Those rules I have no beef with, and don't really care if they change.

The Force dice as fuel for an unfixed, tiny pool of points for your character to use on the other hand seems cumbersome, and too inconsistent. In the movies, books, and games, whether or not they used their powers over again, the Force at least provided a fairly consistent medium of power usage. Only very rarely were there dead Force zones, dark side areas, or other things that limited the powers of dark or light side Force users. Making everything a light side/dark side roll on a Force die for every power activation is utterly absurd.

Let's be clear also that there are two main types of Force powers for our discussion--the regular ones and the irregular ones. The regular ones, both physical and mental, push people away, pull weapons around, shoot lightning, and act on the physical world in close proximity to the user. Mental powers consistently sense life, send messages to others, or enhance one's senses or physical prowess.

Then there are the irregular powers, which are more frequently inconsistent. This includes peering into the future, sensing the thoughts of someone who is good at masking them, and mind-tricking someone who is strong-willed. These powers are only a small percentage of the total--that's what this silly dice system works to the benefit of, the irregular powers that fizzle out as often as they work. That's not what the majority of Force powers are.


I'm actually mildly curious...if FFG had initially released rules for Jedi, I wonder how many people would've complained "Ugh, the same Star Wars, not even trying to give us anything innovative."

If they had made the Jedi first and made us wait 2 years for the soldiers and scoundrels, it puts us in the same awkward position. We have to wait a long time before the final verdict on the game is in. These aren't just splatbooks we're waiting for, they're -core- rulebooks, which means they could introduce mechanics down the line for the Force or other things we had no idea of.

[Rakaydos]

Just finish consolidating and make everything part of the Combat Skills or Talents system.

A bit off topic, but I've played a (different) system that basically does this- everything is either a Skill or a Gift.
"Carears" and "Races" are more than just a set of bonuses, they are also numbered as stats, and they give that value to the skills that carear/race is associated with. A Mercenary, for instance, applys his Mercenary attribute to his melee skill, along with his Body and any skill points he may have put into it.

The other half is gifts. Gifts do a whole bunch of things, from situational bonuses like extra dice when you do X; extra specific actions each turn(rapid aim); or let you do now actions an untrained person couldnt do/ would be difficult to do.
Spellcasting in this system is gifts. You "exaust" the gift that lets you cast magic to "Draw" a spell like a weapon. You do an attack action (possibly after aiming) to "throw" your spell like any other weapon. Then, you can usually spend an action to recover the spell you exausted. Action economy is part of what keeps casters in check.

The same people are making a Sci Fi game using the same system- I'd love to homebrew Star Wars races/carears and gifts for it, when it comes out. The beta I have access to is looking pretty good.

[Stoney]

You "exaust" the gift that lets you cast magic to "Draw" a spell like a weapon. You do an attack action (possibly after aiming) to "throw" your spell like any other weapon. Then, you can usually spend an action to recover the spell you exausted. Action economy is part of what keeps casters in check.

The overall idea sounds great, Rakaydos! I'm all for consolidating two systems in an RPG that can accomplish the same thing into one. But I have one question about your system.

What does the term action economy mean? For every action that you use in combat, if you're a caster, you have to waste another action just standing there getting it back? Or is it just like a move action, and then you can attack again in the same round?

I'm suggesting that everyone is a caster. A Warrior is "casting" Slice-n-Dice, a level one ability that allows him to charge and do a small amount of bonus damage (for example). Everything needs to be scaled so that abilities are all balanced, regardless of who uses them. Everyone's a caster.

[Rakaydos]

The overall idea sounds great, Rakaydos! I'm all for consolidating two systems in an RPG that can accomplish the same thing into one. But I have one question about your system.

What does the term action economy mean? For every action that you use in combat, if you're a caster, you have to waste another action just standing there getting it back?

I'm suggesting that everyone is a caster. A Warrior is "casting" Slice-n-Dice, a level one ability that allows him to charge and do a small amount of bonus damage (for example). Everything needs to be scaled so that abilities are all balanced, regardless of who uses them. Everyone's a caster.
Hmm. In the system (Ironclaw: Squaring the Circle is available through DriveThroughRPG- dont let the fuzzies on the cover scare you off) you get two actions per turn, which must be different. There is only one attack action, so you cant, say, swing a sword and throw a spell the same round. (unless you have a gift that combines them).
So a melee person can draw a sword and move up, and the next round they do Aim/Attack, and the third round, they Aim/Attack again. An archer (or dagger thrower) has to Draw (load) their weapon each time, however, so either they go for a quick "draw/attack, draw/attack" or they do a more careful, "Guard/Draw, Aim/Attack, Guard/Draw", ect.
A caster, or at least a caster who only knows a few spells and needs to recast them, has an additional step- refreshing the Magic gift. they dont need to do this immediaately- they just cant draw the same spell again until they focus on their training for a bit, and this takes an action. So the first round they can Draw/Attack with the spell, but the next round they need to Refresh/guard or Refresh/Draw.

And when you start getting hit, well... The Reeling status takes away 1 of your actions for 1 turn, and that's the LEAST of the things damage does. You arnt going to lose your prepared spell, but it's going to take longer before you can hurt them back.

[Stoney]

A caster, or at least a caster who only knows a few spells and needs to recast them, has an additional step- refreshing the Magic gift. they dont need to do this immediaately- they just cant draw the same spell again until they focus on their training for a bit, and this takes an action. So the first round they can Draw/Attack with the spell, but the next round they need to Refresh/guard or Refresh/Draw.

If you only get an attack once every other round in this system, that better be one hell of a magical attack. Otherwise, it seems more economical to just eliminate the Refresh step and scale the magic power so that it's on par with the melee warrior and the ranged fighter.

But usually, after fighting a battle for a while, you're going to be fatigued. Having a power pool measures this fatigue, and once you're out, you either have to wait a certain amount of time or resort to some very basic attack that requires no power points.

I think the best way to put more powerful magical abilities or even non-magical (non-Force) attacks in check is to put a cooldown on them. Again, I took it from WoW! It's not complicated. You say cooldown 2, and that means it has a 2 round cooldown (counted from the start of the next round from when you cast/used it). Then you can use that ability once every three rounds.

[Rakaydos]

I think the best way to put more powerful magical abilities or even non-magical (non-Force) attacks in check is to put a cooldown on them.
That's basically what the Refresh action is. It effectively has a 2 action cooldown- refresh, then recast, then attack again. if your not focusing on it (spending actions) why should the spell "cool down" for free?

In a similar vein, some of the larger crossbows take multiple draw actions to reload them- and since you can only do it once per turn, reloading them can be extremely cumbersome. (So make your shot count!)

[Stoney]

That's basically what the Refresh action is. It effectively has a 2 action cooldown- refresh, then recast, then attack again. if your not focusing on it (spending actions) why should the spell "cool down" for free?

Yeah, you could measure cooldown in actions rather than rounds, but we're really discussing different systems. In my hypothetical system, there wouldn't be any Refresh action, just the basics of your mainstream RPG, move actions, and attack actions (and maybe another category for minor actions). Your attack action allows you to use your Abilities (Talents, Gifts, Powers, whatever you want to call them), but there's a separation between "at will" abilities that can be done every round (or nearly every round) and abilities with cooldowns, or that have a specific trigger.

And then everybody has at will abilities, like in 4e, as well as abilities that take longer to cool down (but no encounter or daily powers. Certain powerful abilities might have a cooldown of 10 or even 20 rounds, like in TOR). Nobody is really more powerful than anybody else.

[GungHo]

I'm actually mildly curious...if FFG had initially released rules for Jedi, I wonder how many people would've complained "Ugh, the same Star Wars, not even trying to give us anything innovative."

I'd be happy if they had released rules for everyone.

[Alejandro]

I'd be happy if they had released rules for everyone.

Pretty much. Again, the main Saga core rulebook has enough information in it for a group of PCs to create every major protagonist and villain in A New Hope, plus Lando. You can't do that, yet, with FFG's books, and it will be years before you can. For me, that's a good measuring stick.

[Hopeless]

What if they did release everything in one book?

Wouldn't it make more likely it would need plenty of errata?

Going Beta makes sense since Star Wars means plenty of things to every single fan, so what might make sense to one group won't to another.

The first book Edge of the Empire seems obviously chosen because of the interests at that time, this could have easily have been Age of Rebellion since that would pretty much duplicate what the original star wars d6 was based on.

They didn't, instead they went for Han Solo, Chewie, Lando and others of their ilk as their opening gambit.

The second is the one that should eventually prove more popular especially if Star Wars Rebels kicks off around the same time this 2nd core rulebook comes out!

Now anyone care to guess when the Age of Rebellion will be released next year?

I suspect at least Gen Con unless they really want Force and Destiny to be centre stage:smalltongue:

So this time next year I wonder what they'll be arguing about?

DND 5e or Force and Destiny?

[Alejandro]

Technically Age of Rebellion is already out, at least the beta. It was for sale at Gencon last week.

[GungHo]

What if they did release everything in one book?

Wouldn't it make more likely it would need plenty of errata?
Oh come on.

[Mando Knight]

What if they did release everything in one book?

Wouldn't it make more likely it would need plenty of errata?
Not really. Releasing the core concepts in different books a year or two apart each is just as much a source of trouble as your design philosophy changes.

Going Beta makes sense since Star Wars means plenty of things to every single fan, so what might make sense to one group won't to another.
Going beta was fine. Charging as much as they did for the beta without any other rewards for doing so is where a lot of the issue lies.

[Alejandro]

If they told me, 'Give me $50-60 per Beta book, and we'll give you an equivalent price reduction on buying the final books or another Fantasy Flight Games product' that would be a different story.

But that's not what they're doing. Hell, even D&D's ongoing playtest didn't charge a dime, just time.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

If they'd released it without art and polished formatting and in PDF format, yeah. And that might've been a good route to take. But it's also not the route they chose; they released a select-preview highly-polished book.

[Mando Knight]

$50-60 is what I'd expect for a finished RPG product, not a beta.

[Rakaydos]

The same people are making a Sci Fi game using the same system- I'd love to homebrew Star Wars races/carears and gifts for it, when it comes out. The beta I have access to is looking pretty good.

the beta for Myriad Song is available now- do I just make a thread, or what?

[Friv]

If they'd released it without art and polished formatting and in PDF format, yeah. And that might've been a good route to take. But it's also not the route they chose; they released a select-preview highly-polished book.

As I understand it, they can't release anything as a PDF because LucasArts are idiots and won't allow any licensees to release works as PDFs because piracy.

[Juhn]

They are aware that this just means that people are going to scan the books and post .pdfs anyway, only now all the .pdfs will be pirated, right? I can't see why providing a legitimate way to get .pdfs wouldn't cut down on piracy, because the people who were going to pirate are going to manage it regardless.

There's basically no way they're not losing sales doing this.

Are they assuming that everyone who would have bought a .pdf of their game but not a hardcopy are all going to rush out and buy hardcopies now because they can't get a .pdf copy, rather than just spending their money elsewhere (probably on their competitors' products?)

That's not even mentioning the insanity of trying to do a public beta test without a .pdf option, but you guys seem to have covered a lot of that already.

[LordBlades]

They are aware that this just means that people are going to scan the books and post .pdfs anyway, only now all the .pdfs will be pirated, right? I can't see why providing a legitimate way to get .pdfs wouldn't cut down on piracy, because the people who were going to pirate are going to manage it regardless.

There's basically no way they're not losing sales doing this.

Are they assuming that everyone who would have bought a .pdf of their game but not a hardcopy are all going to rush out and buy hardcopies now because they can't get a .pdf copy, rather than just spending their money elsewhere (probably on their competitors' products?)

That's not even mentioning the insanity of trying to do a public beta test without a .pdf option, but you guys seem to have covered a lot of that already.

I do believe the no-pdf has something to do with LucasArts. They're also currently working on DArk Heresy 2nd edition beta, and they released that as pdf just fine.

[Seatbelt]

In defense of the price of the miniatures, each one comes with a bunch of face cards, some equipment cards, and some tokens. But over and above that the miniatures are absolutely gorgeous. I was hesitant at first because $15 is a lot for one plastic toy. But the wings on the B-wing move.. man. They move. that's pretty awesome.

[Ailowynn]

I do believe the no-pdf has something to do with LucasArts. They're also currently working on DArk Heresy 2nd edition beta, and they released that as pdf just fine.

This, as I mentioned in one of my posts already (I think the OP), is the case. Lucas considers PDFs to be electronic content (aside from non-rules-related supplements), so FFG would need to acquire the appropriate license.

[Ailowynn]

$50-60 is what I'd expect for a finished RPG product, not a beta.

...the finished product is $60, and the beta is $30.

[Asmodai]

I really don't see why we need the Jedi to actually have a rounded out Star Wars RPG. Even the Rebellion book will be mostly fluffing out the specialisations and gear and theming the game more towards fighting with the Empire, heck that could have been a fat supplement for Edge of the Empire.

Jedi are rather superflous to the core Star Wars experience. In the first three movies we had a grand total of 4 jedi, 5 if you include Palpatine. Two were supporting characters and two were villians. The last one was a pretty sorry excuse for a Jedi until the third movie, and even then he wasn't anywhere near the absurdity the later trilogy established. Star Wars was about aliens, exotic locales, cool spaceships, romantic wars against fascisit opression and plucky heroes. It was a setting where the Jedi were but a footnote.

Still, Luke was a fringer, a pilot, a rebel and a hero even without awesome force powers, and was the protagnist of three brilliant movies. What more do we need to create our own heroes in the Star Wars setting?

[MeeposFire]

I really don't see why we need the Jedi to actually have a rounded out Star Wars RPG. Even the Rebellion book will be mostly fluffing out the specialisations and gear and theming the game more towards fighting with the Empire, heck that could have been a fat supplement for Edge of the Empire.

Jedi are rather superflous to the core Star Wars experience. In the first three movies we had a grand total of 4 jedi, 5 if you include Palpatine. Two were supporting characters and two were villians. The last one was a pretty sorry excuse for a Jedi until the third movie, and even then he wasn't anywhere near the absurdity the later trilogy established. Star Wars was about aliens, exotic locales, cool spaceships, romantic wars against fascisit opression and plucky heroes. It was a setting where the Jedi were but a footnote.

Still, Luke was a fringer, a pilot, a rebel and a hero even without awesome force powers, and was the protagnist of three brilliant movies. What more do we need to create our own heroes in the Star Wars setting?

Frankly I think jedi are better in small doses and that is how I like the movies. In the newer trilogy I kept thinking I wanted more Solos and less Skywalker (granted Anakin is whiny and annoying so that does not help).

[Dienekes]

I really don't see why we need the Jedi to actually have a rounded out Star Wars RPG. Even the Rebellion book will be mostly fluffing out the specialisations and gear and theming the game more towards fighting with the Empire, heck that could have been a fat supplement for Edge of the Empire.

Jedi are rather superflous to the core Star Wars experience. In the first three movies we had a grand total of 4 jedi, 5 if you include Palpatine. Two were supporting characters and two were villians. The last one was a pretty sorry excuse for a Jedi until the third movie, and even then he wasn't anywhere near the absurdity the later trilogy established. Star Wars was about aliens, exotic locales, cool spaceships, romantic wars against fascisit opression and plucky heroes. It was a setting where the Jedi were but a footnote.

Still, Luke was a fringer, a pilot, a rebel and a hero even without awesome force powers, and was the protagnist of three brilliant movies. What more do we need to create our own heroes in the Star Wars setting?

I know, I mean both the major villains were force users, the two guiding teachers were force users and the main character arc of the main character was learning to become a Force user. But besides that force users weren't important to the original trilogy at all.

[Asmodai]

Geez. Star Wars is all about the Hero's Journey. Sure there is a bit of the Force, but the Force that appears there is mostly ephemeral and a matter of roleplaying and minor powers, rather then actually being a major plot point. And you sureley cannot argue that being able to make force using villians is predicated upon having force using PC's ?

You don't need Jedi or the Force to make a good Star Wars tale.

[Dienekes]

Geez. Star Wars is all about the Hero's Journey. Sure there is a bit of the Force, but the Force that appears there is mostly ephemeral and a matter of roleplaying and minor powers, rather then actually being a major plot point. And you sureley cannot argue that being able to make force using villians is predicated upon having force using PC's ?

You don't need Jedi or the Force to make a good Star Wars tale.

The whole Death Star was destroyed by using Force Aim. Vader chokes numerous bitches, the Emperor tortures Luke through the Force Lightning causing Vader to switch sides. The whole heroes journey was filled with the Force and Luke's character development was completely tied to it.

No you don't need Jedi or the Force to make a good Star Wars tale, necessarily. But without them you have a pretty generic sci-fi setting. Earlier in this thread, I mentioned that if they wanted to make a Firefly game they should have, that's what I see non-Force Star Wars as. But if you're offering up a Star Wars game it makes sense to put some effort and options into the only part of the Star Wars universe that was original and pervaded not just the story, but the very way people talk. "May the Force be with you" is one of the most used lines in the movies. Lightsabers are the most identified objects in the movies.

Now for the record, I would have been just as confused and annoyed if the source book came out with only Jedi rules and nothing for scoundrels, senators, and soldiers. They're major parts of the setting and characters of the OT, they should be in the game designed to model it.

[Asmodai]

In Star Wars the Force works best as a background element and something that's esoteric and unique. The biggest issue of most post original trilogy material was the absurd fixation on the Force.

One could easily argue that it wasn't the Force per se that allowed Luke to destroy the Death Star, but his own skill that he managed to focus on thanks to the encouragement supplied to him by an old man who helped him out at the hardest point in his life.

[Hopeless]

In Star Wars the Force works best as a background element and something that's esoteric and unique. The biggest issue of most post original trilogy material was the absurd fixation on the Force.

One could easily argue that it wasn't the Force per se that allowed Luke to destroy the Death Star, but his own skill that he managed to focus on thanks to the encouragement supplied to him by an old man who helped him out at the hardest point in his life.

Which would have come across better if they at least commented that the Deat Star's anti-hacking intrusion systems were also directly effecting the targetting computers of the fighters'.

I mean after all ECM should make it even more difficult to lock onto that target and make better sense if you realise their targetting systems were being messed up deliberately to better explain why Tarkin thought they didn't stand a chance!:smallwink:

How was he supposed to know on Tattoine they don't have fancy targetting computers and ever since he could call shotgun Luke has been fine tuning his gaming skills on the various shooting programs, games and womp rats he could get into his sights?:smallbiggrin:

The Last Starfighter was in the 80's wasn't it?

[Mando Knight]

The Last Starfighter was in the 80s, but ANH was released in '77.

[satorian]

Star Wars without The Force is Dune without Spice. It can be imagined, sure, but what is being imagined is a generic space opera, not the thing itself. The Force is the sine qua non of Star Wars, like it or not.

Every space opera can have blasters, smugglers, crime lords, a panoply of weird aliens, ships big and small, and faster than light (or light speed) travel. Indeed, take away everything spacey from Star Wars and leave the Force, and you have something more Star Wars than a space opera without the Force would be.

[Asmodai]

Don't put words into my mouth. I've never said you should remove the Force. I said that it works best as a background element with as little definition as possible. Which is pretty much why the second trilogy is a waste of time as it tries to explain something that should not be explained and then goes into a petty little autoexian plot.

Look at the Star Wars Media post on the Media forum, almost universally people seem to flock towards the material that isn't about the Jedi or the Force as "the good stuff".

[Dienekes]

Yeah, because the one that most are pointing as good "The Thrawn trilogy" was not at all about a force-using clone, and Luke trying to bring back the Jedi order.

The problem with what you're saying Asmodai, is one of options. Even if it's never going to be used by a specific gaming group I can guarantee someone who picks up a Star Wars game wants to be a Jedi (or a Sith in my case). The game, which is supposed to allow a player to play a character in the Star Wars setting, does not allow that particularly well. So as a Star Wars game, that concept fails. Even if it can be a fantastic Space Opera game.

And no, examining the Force was not what made the prequels bad. KOTOR and KOTOR 2 are also considered very high up on the good list in the Star Wars media thread and they did it fine. In fact you're more or less forced to play a jedi in them whether you want to or not.

The prequels sucked because poor storytelling, flat characters, insane director decisions, and lack of a clear opposing villain to steal the show.

[Alejandro]

I, for one, actually like the non Jedi characters in Star Wars the most. That's why I built a Han Solo costume for Gencon, not any of the numerous Force users. :) The prequels got a giant minus mark simply because there were no Han Solo or Lando Calrissian characters in them. Jedi overload.

That said, I understand marketing too, and Knights of the Old Republic, Force Unleashed, and even the Clone Wars series all have conclusively shown that people like throwing their money at things with awesome Force characters in them. Fantasy Flight Games is missing the boat.

[Dienekes]

Actually, I agree. I do tend to like the non-Force using characters better. With the exception of Darth Vader, Han is the coolest character in the original trilogy and Lando is a close third. Never really got the appeal of Boba Fett though.

But I'm me, and my players are not. Hell, one of my players always picks the magic class, no matter what. When we played Saga she started making a jedi before even looking at the other classes. If I'm going to get a game, it's going to be

[Mando Knight]

The prequels got a giant minus mark simply because there were no Han Solo or Lando Calrissian characters in them. Jedi overload.

The only real not-Force-User characters we got in the prequels (besides R2) were Jar-Jar and Spunky Princess Senior. Who herself was, as Weird Al put it (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEcjgJSqSRU), "Do you see him hitting on the queen? Though he's just nine and she's fourteen? Yeah, he's prob'ly gonna marry her someday..."

(Literally, her entire character was "Spunky Princess Senior")

[shadow_archmagi]

I think both sides are right.

If you wanted to replicate the Original Trilogy, you wouldn't really need defined mechanics for force users. The Force is obviously a big component of Star Wars, but it's not a big component of the character's character sheets. Han and Chewie and Lando and Leia are all mundanes. Luke is *learning* the force, but it doesn't factor into his capabilities much. Luke's level of attunement with the force is better modeled via something like shadowrun's Fate Points than with a D&D style magic system.

THAT SAID

a lot of people totally do pick up star wars and go "I WANNA BE THE GUY" and point at a jedi.

[Alejandro]

Technically, Leia is not a mundane. She just isn't trained in anything during her screen time. However, it's entirely possible that will change in Episode VII. Carrie Fisher even commented once that she'd love it if her Leia had a few Force powers :)

[Ailowynn]

This whole argument is part of the reason that FFG split it up. People who don't care about Jedi too much don't need to buy the Jedi book, and vice versa.

On a side note, I'm very refreshed by how FFG handled the Force. Recently in RPGs and videogames, and even in some other EU content, it's become almost Vancian: you focus on learning this power, which does that thing, and that thing only*. The Force should be something that brings powers of all sorts gradually. You can specialize, but a Force-user doesn't spend time training and developing his power so he can just do a mind trick. He trains and focuses until he is able to feel the minds of others through the Force, and subtly manipulate them with it.



*yes, I know that's not all that Vancian magic is.

[Hopeless]

What I don't get is that as long as you're not running by some strict rule specification there's nothing stopping you from saying...

Right you spent 30 of your starting xp on the force exile/emergent specialty that gives you a force rating of 1 and any one of these force powers at its most basic level.

If you want to start off with a lightsaber that will cost you extra in obligation under the Being hunted by the Empire whether you want to be a Jedi or Sith since Vader doesn't care he'll kill your character regardless of which side of the force you go for...

Now treat the force rating as another characteristic so to increase from 1 to 2 cost an extra 20pts and each force power you want your character to possess cost 10pts after that you treat them the same way you treat the other talent trees.

After character generation you need to purchase the talent that allows you to increase a characteristic to be able to increase your force rating...

So what was that about complaining you can't run a Jedi straight away?:smalltongue:

[Alejandro]

This whole argument is part of the reason that FFG split it up. People who don't care about Jedi too much don't need to buy the Jedi book, and vice versa.

Any time your business decisions involve the idea of 'don't need to buy the X book' that's not good business. :)

[Gamgee]

What I don't get is that as long as you're not running by some strict rule specification there's nothing stopping you from saying...

Right you spent 30 of your starting xp on the force exile/emergent specialty that gives you a force rating of 1 and any one of these force powers at its most basic level.

If you want to start off with a lightsaber that will cost you extra in obligation under the Being hunted by the Empire whether you want to be a Jedi or Sith since Vader doesn't care he'll kill your character regardless of which side of the force you go for...

Now treat the force rating as another characteristic so to increase from 1 to 2 cost an extra 20pts and each force power you want your character to possess cost 10pts after that you treat them the same way you treat the other talent trees.

After character generation you need to purchase the talent that allows you to increase a characteristic to be able to increase your force rating...

So what was that about complaining you can't run a Jedi straight away?:smalltongue:
That's a good game master making up for the crappy system. Hypothetically god tier GM would be able to tell a compelling story revolving around a triangle romance of toothpicks and still make the players feel involved and make their own rules to make all of this fun.

[Mutazoia]

Any time your business decisions involve the idea of 'don't need to buy the X book' that's not good business. :)

lol

As opposed to the "Let's split the PHB into 3 or 4 different volumes and make people pay $25 a piece to have access to all the basic races and classes" business plan.

Actually I'm pretty sure that they're banking on people wanting to play Star Wars WITH the force..and splitting the force rules into it's own book will a) generate more cash-flow and b) allow them to do more in depth rules on the force and force users as they now have an entire book to do so (rather than just a chapter or two as in other SW systems)

[Ailowynn]

That's a good game master making up for the crappy system. Hypothetically god tier GM would be able to tell a compelling story revolving around a triangle romance of toothpicks and still make the players feel involved and make their own rules to make all of this fun.

Literally the only part of that that isn't in the rules is the increase in Force rating. Everything else is in the RAW, although I'd argue against giving that much to a single starting character (I'd be fine if it was a whole party of Jedi or something, as long as everyone was fairly equal).

[Hopeless]

Literally the only part of that that isn't in the rules is the increase in Force rating. Everything else is in the RAW, although I'd argue against giving that much to a single starting character (I'd be fine if it was a whole party of Jedi or something, as long as everyone was fairly equal).

Funny part its possible to use the d6 force powers in this game and turn Alter, Control and Sense into skills so you use the Force Rating as the characteristic and the three above as the skill using the yellow and green dice as normal.

Difficulty will still be at least 2 purple dice barring modifiers for the particular force power being used since I can see Alter Mind having a red challenge die to two involved!

Still needs work on the dark side bit though but that's about normal!

[Hopeless]

Okay lightside and darkside, these are usually also called destiny points.

This got me wondering what if you the gm can allocate darkside points to a character that does something truly heinous that can be spent later as setback dice and the PC can only lose those points by spending spare destiny points at the end of a session provided there are any left of course.

A force user this is especially nasty as if they gain more of these than their force rating they become an npc character until its somehow lowered.

On the plus side it can only happen if they trying to run a Sith or Dark side Jedi and can apply to non-force users but with edge of the empire I believe that isn't necessary!:smallamused:

Hmm this would need to be very specific so say the gm has to spend a destiny point to invoke that trait rather than be afflicted all the time it has to become a part of the narrative so the gunho dark jedi can't stop themselves reacting (setback dice to willpower check to avoid reacting) yes still needs more work but its still a thought to ponder...

[Ailowynn]

I don't think a light side/dark side point system for morality is necessary. In EotE, well, you're walking the line of light and dark; there's not too much of a moral struggle. And AoR's Duty mechanic inspires the PCs to act well in order to get more bonuses. I'm guessing something like that will be in F&D, but I don't know how closely tied it will be to destiny.

On an unrelated note, it occurred to me that it seems like most people who have actually played EotE really liked it; the complaints all seem focused on the marketing aspect. Does anyone have a complaint about the actual system?

[GungHo]

Only system complaint I have is the assigning Destiny light/dark side points as a potential random effect before play rather than a cumulative karma. I see good things and bad things in the gimmick dice. It's nice to have prompts for coming up with complications, but in the end, it's asking me to buy dice for something that can't be used with anything else. But, that's an FFG schtick, so you just gotta roll with the punches on that.

[shadow_archmagi]

Only system complaint I have is the assigning Destiny light/dark side points as a potential random effect before play rather than a cumulative karma. I see good things and bad things in the gimmick dice. It's nice to have prompts for coming up with complications, but in the end, it's asking me to buy dice for something that can't be used with anything else. But, that's an FFG schtick, so you just gotta roll with the punches on that.

? Rogue Trader just wanted me to stock up on d10s. Are there a bunch of FFG games that need weird dice?

[NoldorForce]

? Rogue Trader just wanted me to stock up on d10s. Are there a bunch of FFG games that need weird dice?Only their Star Wars games and Warhammer Fantasy 3E did, so far as I know.

[Ahrimon]

I haven't played or even looked at the EotE rules. But just reading this thread I've had two ideas pop into my head to cover the avantage/disadvantage thing. Roll 2d20, one is the skill check like normal and the other is the bonus outcome. They should be color coded or rolled seperately to differentiate which is which. Both succeed = succeed with success, etc. Advantage with this system is the better you are the more likely you are to have an associated success. Alternitevely you just roll a 2nd die along with your check. Say a d10. 1-2 bad stuff, 3-8 no affect, 9-10 good stuff. Adjust as needed. Even doing 1=really bad, 2-3=bad, 4-7=nothing, 8-9=good, 10=holy crap you hit paydirt is doable. It's a very customizable sub-system that can be added along with any check in the game.

It sounds fun, and I might try and add it to whatever game I run next. But in it's essense it feels like a fun role playing aid with minor mechanical benefits.

[kidnicky]

Is the starter box for this actually a playable game, or will we eventually hit a cap? What I mean is,the D&D 4e red box only allowed you to go up to 2nd class. So basically it was a game you played a handful of times, then HAD to buy another book. I love the game, bit didn't like the marketing.

So is FFG star wars "white box" a full,albeit dumbed down game my group can pay before we shell out 40 for a hardback book, or is is it just one adventure and back to the store?

[Hopeless]

Is the starter box for this actually a playable game, or will we eventually hit a cap? What I mean is,the D&D 4e red box only allowed you to go up to 2nd class. So basically it was a game you played a handful of times, then HAD to buy another book. I love the game, bit didn't like the marketing.

So is FFG star wars "white box" a full,albeit dumbed down game my group can pay before we shell out 40 for a hardback book, or is is it just one adventure and back to the store?

Its supposed to be a good introduction to the game, it doesn't include the full rules for the game especially character generation although they have a downloadable sequel to the scenario included with the boxed set.

The core rulebook however is good to go as long as you have plenty of ideas about what you want to run this could go on for as long as your interest holds.

Keep an eye out for the Order 66 podcast because they pay special attention to this new star wars rpg and is well worth listening to particularly as the segment called Skill Monkey introduces you to what I call the John De Lancie of the Star Wars Universe!:smallamused:

I know there's a couple of web sites with additional content you'll find interesting if you want more than that otherwise enjoy!

[Ailowynn]

The Beginner Box has no limit on advancement. The pregens that it comes with only have two or three "levels," but there are rules to take you as far as you want; you just won't get the optional extras and fiddly bits.

[Hopeless]

So has anyone picked up a copy of the new Beta?

Apparently the first of the updates have been posted in the Fantasy Flight forum.