Animated Object Constrict

[BeyondLimitatio]

So, pretty straightforward scenario with a bit of a wrinkle in terms of grapple rules. I'm mostly looking for clarifications (to make sure I'm going to DM this scenario correctly).

I have a room with a Huge Animated Rug, 20 ft by 20 ft. The intent is to try to grapple the PCs as they walk up onto the rug. So while reading through the monster entry, these questions popped up in my head.

1) As I understand how Constrict works, every time that the rug does anything that requires a grapple check and succeeds, the constrict damage occurs. I thought initially that it was it's own special action, but another thread I found said otherwise. Just double checking this for fact or fiction.

2) If whoever is being grappled by the rug attempts anything that requires a opposed grapple check, and fails...does that mean that they suffer constrict damage?

3) Since the rug is huge, it is capable of applying constriction attacks to all medium sized creatures who can fit under it (so basically up to 16). What I don't really understand is how is the rug is capable of getting grapple checks against more than 1 target? I know that the PCs can try to grapple the rug...but why would they if they can possible get constricted to death? What am I missing here?

4) Finally, I was reading over the Blind ability of animated objects. It says that sheetlike animated objects get the ability...so would a rug qualify for that? I've seen some heavy tapestries hanging in castle walls that could practically be rugs.

[TuggyNE]

1) As I understand how Constrict works, every time that the rug does anything that requires a grapple check and succeeds, the constrict damage occurs. I thought initially that it was it's own special action, but another thread I found said otherwise. Just double checking this for fact or fiction.

That appears to be correct, which seems wrong, but there it is; Improved Grab explains its interaction with Constrict in that way.


2) If whoever is being grappled by the rug attempts anything that requires a opposed grapple check, and fails...does that mean that they suffer constrict damage?

Apparently.


3) Since the rug is huge, it is capable of applying constriction attacks to all medium sized creatures who can fit under it (so basically up to 16). What I don't really understand is how is the rug is capable of getting grapple checks against more than 1 target? I know that the PCs can try to grapple the rug...but why would they if they can possible get constricted to death? What am I missing here?

The rug cannot attempt to grapple more than one foe at a time (since "attempt to grapple another foe" is not on the list of actions you can take while grappling), but up to 4 characters could, if they chose, attempt to grapple it; it would then be able to constrict them as usual.


4) Finally, I was reading over the Blind ability of animated objects. It says that sheetlike animated objects get the ability...so would a rug qualify for that? I've seen some heavy tapestries hanging in castle walls that could practically be rugs.

Yeah, it's more than sheetlike enough.

[bekeleven]

The rug cannot attempt to grapple more than one foe at a time (since "attempt to grapple another foe" is not on the list of actions you can take while grappling), but up to 4 characters could, if they chose, attempt to grapple it; it would then be able to constrict them as usual.
Remind me: Is the grappling at -20 just a 3.0 thing, or has that been included in 3.5?

[BeyondLimitatio]

Remind me: Is the grappling at -20 just a 3.0 thing, or has that been included in 3.5?

That rule is under Improved Grab written in the Monster Manual.

[Splendor]

An object of at least Large size can make constriction attacks against multiple creatures at once, if they all are at least two sizes smaller than the object and can fit under it. - MM 13

I would say that the large rug gets one attack to try to hit everyone in its attack area (like if they were standing on it, or it was hanging over them). The in gets one grapple check against everyone, and the people inside can each make a grapple check or they can aid another and make one grapple check.

The -20 thing is kind of different...

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. - MM 310
This allows the grappler to NOT act as if it was grappled. Where the animated rug is still considered grappled, it just can grapple multiple targets.

--Edited-- I tried to find something else that is similar, but the Trapper isn't in D&D (is in Pathfinder) and the Lurker Above can only grapple one person (despite being 20' x 10'). Maybe you could use something like the Swallow Whole ability.

[Chronos]

I think that Constrict actually only applies to a grapple check to do damage. But the grapple rules are a bit of a mess.

[Urpriest]

Since grappling monsters are some of my favorites, let's break this down:

First of all, the rug's constrict:


Constrict (Ex)

A flexible animated object such as a rope, vine, or rug deals damage equal to its slam damage value plus 1½ times its Strength bonus with a successful grapple check against a creature up to one size larger than itself.

An object of at least Large size can make constriction attacks against multiple creatures at once, if they all are at least two sizes smaller than the object and can fit under it.

It's the whole "it can make constriction attacks against multiple creatures at once" thing that's confusing, since there are no such things as "constriction attacks", so the designers probably forgot to read the grapple rules when designing a grappling monster, probably because research is for nerds.

Anyway, note here that the Rug does not have Improved Grab.

Here's the text of Constrict itself:


Constrict

A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.

and here's Improved Grab:


Improved Grab

If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Note that Improved Grab is required to do the whole "attack multiple opponents sequentially, taking -20" thing, so rugs can't do that.

The last Rules of the Game: All About Grappling article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) deals with Monsters grappling. Note the edits throughout that section: while it's encouraging that mistakes were corrected, it's a little silly they were made so dramatically at all.

Rules of the Game clarifies that the natural weapon damage from Improved Grab happens only when you make a grapple check to deal damage:


Each successful grapple check the attacker makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. (This works just like making a grapple check to deal damage.)

Skip has similar things to say about Constrict:


Constrict: Creatures with the constrict special attack deal extra damage when grappling. Most creatures with this attack usually also have the improved grab special attack. A creature deals extra constriction damage when it first grabs a foe and establishes a hold. If the creature later makes a grapple check to deal damage to a creature in its grasp, it deals damage from the natural weapon it uses in the attack (if any) and extra constriction damage as well.

So it's pretty clear that the intent, or at least designer reading, of these abilities is that Improved Grab and Constrict only deal their damage when you use the "damage an opponent" option (with the one exception that Constrict also deals its damage when establishing a hold). What is left unclear even by Skip is whether the damage from Improved Grab or Constrict is in addition to, or replaces, the base damage from that option. It seems a bit inelegant for a monster to be dealing unarmed strike damage, so I would go for the latter, but that is a personal preference.

What does RAW say?

Improved Grab is clear that its damage is dealt on "every successful grapple check", so RAW it does apply when any grappling action is taken, and RAW it applies on top of the unarmed strike damage from "grapple your opponent". Further, if the creature also has Constrict, RAW that damage is apparently also dealt.

Constrict meanwhile uses this wording: "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check." When an ability says someone can do something, it usually establishes an action cost. So you can interpret this line as either saying that every successful grapple check deals Constrict damage, or that you need a special grapple check to deal Constrict damage. It's WotC's job to release errata to clean up the wording, because the RAW is ambiguous.

Finally, for the rug itself, provided that constrict takes its own special grapple option (big obvious problem in the rules: there is no term for this general type of rules element) in the absence of improved grab, its ability to use Constrict on multiple opponents would mean that it can make a grapple check to damage everyone in the grapple for Constrict damage only, but it still needs to grapple them first, which requires that everybody join in.

So basically, RAW:
1. The rug attempts to grapple one guy, and does so with no meaningful special abilities.
2. The rug can choose to Constrict during the grapple a number of times up to its number of iteratives. Each time it can make a grapple check against each opponent grappled, if new opponents somehow chose to join in. This deals Constrict damage only. (Note that the other interpretation of Constrict, that it triggers every time a grapple check is made, is inconsistent with the phrasing of the Rug's Constrict, so we can't use it here).

How I would rule it:
1. The rug can attempt to grapple multiple opponents at once. A successful attack of opportunity spoils the grapple for that opponent only.
2. Each successful grapple check to deal damage deals Constrict damage instead of unarmed damage. This check is made against everyone in the grapple. No other grapple checks deal special damage.

[unseenmage]

Since grappling monsters are some of my favorites, let's break this down:

First of all, the rug's constrict:



It's the whole "it can make constriction attacks against multiple creatures at once" thing that's confusing, since there are no such things as "constriction attacks", so the designers probably forgot to read the grapple rules when designing a grappling monster, probably because research is for nerds.

Anyway, note here that the Rug does not have Improved Grab.

Here's the text of Constrict itself:



and here's Improved Grab:



Note that Improved Grab is required to do the whole "attack multiple opponents sequentially, taking -20" thing, so rugs can't do that.

The last Rules of the Game: All About Grappling article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050322a) deals with Monsters grappling. Note the edits throughout that section: while it's encouraging that mistakes were corrected, it's a little silly they were made so dramatically at all.

Rules of the Game clarifies that the natural weapon damage from Improved Grab happens only when you make a grapple check to deal damage:



Skip has similar things to say about Constrict:



So it's pretty clear that the intent, or at least designer reading, of these abilities is that Improved Grab and Constrict only deal their damage when you use the "damage an opponent" option (with the one exception that Constrict also deals its damage when establishing a hold). What is left unclear even by Skip is whether the damage from Improved Grab or Constrict is in addition to, or replaces, the base damage from that option. It seems a bit inelegant for a monster to be dealing unarmed strike damage, so I would go for the latter, but that is a personal preference.

What does RAW say?

Improved Grab is clear that its damage is dealt on "every successful grapple check", so RAW it does apply when any grappling action is taken, and RAW it applies on top of the unarmed strike damage from "grapple your opponent". Further, if the creature also has Constrict, RAW that damage is apparently also dealt.

Constrict meanwhile uses this wording: "A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check." When an ability says someone can do something, it usually establishes an action cost. So you can interpret this line as either saying that every successful grapple check deals Constrict damage, or that you need a special grapple check to deal Constrict damage. It's WotC's job to release errata to clean up the wording, because the RAW is ambiguous.

Finally, for the rug itself, provided that constrict takes its own special grapple option (big obvious problem in the rules: there is no term for this general type of rules element) in the absence of improved grab, its ability to use Constrict on multiple opponents would mean that it can make a grapple check to damage everyone in the grapple for Constrict damage only, but it still needs to grapple them first, which requires that everybody join in.

So basically, RAW:
1. The rug attempts to grapple one guy, and does so with no meaningful special abilities.
2. The rug can choose to Constrict during the grapple a number of times up to its number of iteratives. Each time it can make a grapple check against each opponent grappled, if new opponents somehow chose to join in. This deals Constrict damage only. (Note that the other interpretation of Constrict, that it triggers every time a grapple check is made, is inconsistent with the phrasing of the Rug's Constrict, so we can't use it here).

How I would rule it:
1. The rug can attempt to grapple multiple opponents at once. A successful attack of opportunity spoils the grapple for that opponent only.
2. Each successful grapple check to deal damage deals Constrict damage instead of unarmed damage. This check is made against everyone in the grapple. No other grapple checks deal special damage.

I just wanted to pop in and say that Urpriest, that is the most eloquent and useful answer I have read to date on these boards.

And as it helps me with a little Animated Object issue of my own (couple hundred feet of nonmagically antimagic special material chain, which I intend to animate) I thank you for the clear concise explanations.

Bravo.

[bekeleven]

Oh goodness gracious me. I was reading the all about grappling earlier today as well, and check out this bit from part 2: (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050308a)


Damage Your Opponent: You can make an opposed grapple check to deal damage to your opponent when grappling. If you win the opposed check, you deal nonlethal damage equivalent to an unarmed strike...

If a creature has natural weaponry, it deals lethal natural weapon damage with a successful opposed grapple check (its natural weapons are just like unarmed strikes). ... Even if a creature has natural weaponry, it doesn’t use those natural weapons as part of this action. It must use the “Attack Your Opponent” action (described above) to do so.

Which, of course, directly contradicts both parts from part 4 that you quoted, which says that making grapple checks to deal damage uses natural attack damage.

Grappling is a mess, but he couldn't avoid screwing up that badly in the 4-part article designed to clarify it? Twice?

[TuggyNE]

[…]
So basically, RAW:
1. The rug attempts to grapple one guy, and does so with no meaningful special abilities.
2. The rug can choose to Constrict during the grapple a number of times up to its number of iteratives. Each time it can make a grapple check against each opponent grappled, if new opponents somehow chose to join in. This deals Constrict damage only. (Note that the other interpretation of Constrict, that it triggers every time a grapple check is made, is inconsistent with the phrasing of the Rug's Constrict, so we can't use it here).

How I would rule it:
1. The rug can attempt to grapple multiple opponents at once. A successful attack of opportunity spoils the grapple for that opponent only.
2. Each successful grapple check to deal damage deals Constrict damage instead of unarmed damage. This check is made against everyone in the grapple. No other grapple checks deal special damage.

It's always nice when someone else comes to approximately the same conclusions with roughly the same reasoning, but explains it in much greater detail. :smallwink: