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View Full Version : Help me make a Cinematic Collapse explosion scene!



Aemoh87
2013-08-18, 05:03 AM
So I am really stuck on this, and I posted something similar in the 3.5 forum but got responses I didn't like. Most of them used 3.5 mechanics... I want to do something completely different.

So here is the back story, party all at this opera house which is in a city built on top of a city (kinda like in futurama), and a explosion goes off in the opera house. I want the entire first session to be a survive challenge for the group to survive the fall and the collapse of the city above them.

What are some cool ways to do this? Maybe use board game mechanics or just some interesting cinematic scenarios you'd recommend. If you say anything related to skill checks I will scream (not that you would hear me). Talk to me, I am gonna go watch some Indiana Jones movies for some inspiration. I want this whole thing to be about creativity, pressure, and drama.

What I have so far:
A chasm the party must cross, but only one at a time and it keeps getting larger. The party must decide under time restrictions what the order will be. Mind you there are several NPC's as well.

gdiddy
2013-08-18, 01:52 PM
Yeah, people on the 3.5 forums tend to see the rule system as a hammer and every situation as type of nails for them to take a swing at.

I love 3.5, but I know not every question is a "WHAT SPLAT BOOK DO I USE?" and that is how any question on that forum is sometimes interpreted.

I understand that you don't want a rules discussion. I am a little confused what you are looking for, though.

So what you are looking to do is have a survival sequence...while not using any of the rules that are already in the system?

"Cinematic" is troubling to me. Do you mean you discussing things happening to the characters while they have no say in the scripted events around them? Because that sounds like a really horrible and boring sequence.

I mean that might not be the whole of it. It sounds like you want a few custom minigames for the session. No one is going to want to design those for you.
We can give you ideas or inspiration, but the way you phrased the question is confusing.

On the skill thing, what if a player looks at the widening chasm example you mentioned and decides to jump across? If that character is Ace Highjump (A 10th ECL Elven Olympic high jumper with a different pair of Boots of Springing and Striding for each day of the week.) then giving them no chance to use the mechanics of the game to solve the problem is dishonest. Because then you are no longer playing the role-playing game, you are playing "watch this cool thing I made".

Characters should have the ability to use their resources however they see fit. Player autonomy is a really big deal. When designing scenarios, always make sure that every player has something to contribute. Or that the player who cannot act effectively has at least made the choices that led to their character sitting out.

Here are a few inspirations for set pieces:

For five minutes, narrate heavy metalic crunching above for about three minutes IC time. It grows progressively louder. A collapsing bridge of heavy steel cuts a swath through the building they are in, tearing through in a cacophony. It rests at their level, but will continue to collapse downwards if more than x characters are climbing on it for an extended period. Everyone on it gets some chance to escape it before it collapses down into the darkness below.

At one point, after a couple obstacle have been survived, they should see daylight. An elevator shaft, a maintenance duct, a break in the collapsing structures above. However they see it, it vanishes the second they begin earnestly planning to get up there. The only option is to go lower.

Darkness is your friend. You don't need a single monster in the dark.

Slipperychicken
2013-08-18, 02:17 PM
If you say anything related to skill checks I will scream (not that you would hear me). Talk to me, I am gonna go watch some Indiana Jones movies for some inspiration. I want this whole thing to be about creativity, pressure, and drama.

So you feel like it's impossible to accomplish those things with skill checks? Or do you just want to narrate the sequence, but give the players something to do so they don't doze off?

Jaycemonde
2013-08-18, 03:18 PM
Try for dynamic situations along the setpiece rides and things that just can't realistically be helped so the players feel like what's happening is beyond their control, although their actions and whether they (and anybody they're trying to help escape) manage to survive are still well within their power.

As an example of the first suggestion, take a lull in the action--a relatively stable platform, perhaps, or something that's fallen part of the way but gotten caught on another building--and find a way to branch out to multiple possible courses of action. The way the players are supposed to go is across a large chasm and one of the building's vital support beams can be knocked loose and used to bridge the gap, at the cost of expediting it's destruction. Another less direct way, however, would take more time and might involve other hazards (a burst water main or room filled with volatile gas from a leak) that could prove to be just as destructive, albeit in different ways, than the direct route while still being markedly safer.

For the second scenario, make use of the city's (presumably) large population and ramshackle architecture, and give the players glimpses into events that they cannot control--such as a refugee group or aid workers being blocked off or catapulted into the darkness below due to the failing structure, or the aforementioned water main flooding the path an important NPC would've taken and thus delaying their rendezvous with the player characters.

Toy Killer
2013-08-18, 07:00 PM
Make the dungeon with the Lode-bearing Boss at the end (At least, I presume there will be a Lode-bearing boss...)

Then, make a second one. use the skeleton of the dungeon, but tweak it with the destruction raining over head.

Even if the players only saw the opening dungeon for a brief moment, the closing dungeon with tweaks, and then twists and then carnage will make it feel more dynamic.

Simple rooms now have crushing rock traps, a bridge they traversed has now fallen, and asking the Magi in the group to take a few seconds to cast flight for everyone will seem like hell, especially if one member is seriously out paced, or out paces the rest of the party.

If you have cannon-fodder mooks in the dungeon, Feature them running out as well, not interested in fighting, maybe even taking a few spare seconds to help out the party (Obviously not fitting for mindless types, like zombies and golems, but definitely for more intelligent opponents like goblins and cultists).

If they players left a zone without killing a monster, place it in it's old room admist the chaos, as a victim of the wreckage or otherwise.

Maybe even introduce a new exit that didn't exist before, like a pillar that fell over at an angle, allowing the players to walk carefully up and climb out through a hole.

I love this old trope, and simply saying "Get out of the dungeon now!" results with players saying "Okay, We leave...". Skill checks will be necessary, as it gives players a new sense of panic when they realize their dwarf in full plate is going to have a bad day.

Jaycemonde
2013-08-18, 07:53 PM
Make the dungeon with the Lode-bearing Boss at the end (At least, I presume there will be a Lode-bearing boss...)

Then, make a second one. use the skeleton of the dungeon, but tweak it with the destruction raining over head.

Even if the players only saw the opening dungeon for a brief moment, the closing dungeon with tweaks, and then twists and then carnage will make it feel more dynamic.

Simple rooms now have crushing rock traps, a bridge they traversed has now fallen, and asking the Magi in the group to take a few seconds to cast flight for everyone will seem like hell, especially if one member is seriously out paced, or out paces the rest of the party.

If you have cannon-fodder mooks in the dungeon, Feature them running out as well, not interested in fighting, maybe even taking a few spare seconds to help out the party (Obviously not fitting for mindless types, like zombies and golems, but definitely for more intelligent opponents like goblins and cultists).

If they players left a zone without killing a monster, place it in it's old room admist the chaos, as a victim of the wreckage or otherwise.

Maybe even introduce a new exit that didn't exist before, like a pillar that fell over at an angle, allowing the players to walk carefully up and climb out through a hole.

I love this old trope, and simply saying "Get out of the dungeon now!" results with players saying "Okay, We leave...". Skill checks will be necessary, as it gives players a new sense of panic when they realize their dwarf in full plate is going to have a bad day.

That's another hell of an idea--make sure to have giant swathes where neighborhoods and districts once were if the players go up, and the remains (architectural, mechanical or biological) of the fall strewn all over the place if they go down, and make sure they remain relevant for as long as they need to be to make a statement--entire dungeons/encounters that would otherwise be completely vanilla and ordinary are entirely changed by the addition of a huge skyscraper splitting the compound in half or enemies taking advantage of the sudden lack of walls and floors in higher-up buildings.

Toy Killer
2013-08-18, 09:14 PM
One of my favorite adventures I've ever run was within the body of a giant undead walking gargantuan beast, fueled by an ectoplasmic crystal.

The beast had a workshop within it (It was essentially a giant battering ram meant to distribute troops.) and the only way to kill it is to destroy that crystal inside.

After fighting the troops and defeating it's internal defenses, destroying the crystal, it started to crumble into ash from the inside out.

Round by round, the beast was slowly dissolving around them and they had to find a safe way back out of it.

Aemoh87
2013-08-19, 07:33 AM
"Cinematic" is troubling to me. Do you mean you discussing things happening to the characters while they have no say in the scripted events around them? Because that sounds like a really horrible and boring sequence.

I mean that might not be the whole of it. It sounds like you want a few custom minigames for the session. No one is going to want to design those for you.
We can give you ideas or inspiration, but the way you phrased the question is confusing.

Cinematic like Indiana Jones. Like a crazy action sequence. I have designed some interesting bridge building puzzles and I am working on a "rolling room" that has hazards inside that as the room tumbles down the players need to avoid death and exit before it crashes down (all this has to happen in 6 rounds!).

I don't want you to build my encounters for me. But if you have a youtube link of a cool action sequence, played a board game with mechanics that work for this, or just have a neat idea I would love to try it.

As for skill checks... the players still have their skills but I don't want this to be a "Can you jump the gap? Can you climb the wall?" type of deal. The players have no idea what they are getting into, and most aren't geared at all. They literally are at the opera for the evening. And all hell is going to break loose. I am not planning to have any combat in the first session besides a possible scuffle with some NPC's... but it is not really deadly combat. I also wanna leave saves out of this... they are BORING!

Another puzzle I am working on is a sliding puzzle where the players pick a path to slide down a steep incline having to avoid danger without getting separated.

Toy Killer
2013-08-20, 06:53 PM
As for skill checks... the players still have their skills but I don't want this to be a "Can you jump the gap? Can you climb the wall?" type of deal. The players have no idea what they are getting into, and most aren't geared at all. They literally are at the opera for the evening. And all hell is going to break loose. I am not planning to have any combat in the first session besides a possible scuffle with some NPC's... but it is not really deadly combat. I also wanna leave saves out of this... they are BORING!

That last line I quoted is why I face palm with new DM's wanting to learn the ropes.

Of course it's boring if all you do is ask them to make a reflex save to avoid the falling rocks. There is no tension there, no cause, just effect. No reward for a heavy risk (Pun not intended).

What about a reflex save to catch you're comrade from falling over a pit, with a DC that scales by how much he failed it by. The players knew the risk, and the little dramatic tension of the jump gets amped up when you call for reflex saves amongst the party members. All of a sudden, it goes from being "Did Bob make it?" to "Oh Crap! Can I save him!?" and you get the whole party involved.

The big misconception with D&D is that you should use skills, abilities and saves as described in the rule book, when really you should use them to amplify your story by any means necessary. usually by means outside of the rule books.

IronFist
2013-08-20, 09:54 PM
Can I recommend not using D&D for this? Just use FATE.

Aemoh87
2013-08-21, 05:09 AM
That last line I quoted is why I face palm with new DM's wanting to learn the ropes.

I've been playing roleplaying games for almost 10 years. Saves are boring, no one likes failure, it's a bad game mechanic.


The big misconception with D&D is that you should use skills, abilities and saves as described in the rule book, when really you should use them to amplify your story by any means necessary. usually by means outside of the rule books.

There is no choice in skills, you just want to roll high... that is not playing a game that is rolling a dice, I could do that at home alone. Also what am I going to do? Kill of a player in a situation I am forcing them into for the sake of telling a story? Save or dies is what saves and skills are in this situation. I will use them but really there aren't to many challenging tests. So far most are around DC 10. If the players make a mistake I want it to be their fault, not a random happenstance.


Can I recommend not using D&D for this? Just use FATE.

I am gonna use D&D. I know it's not the ideal system for this... but the rest of the campaign and even more importantly that is what my players like to play since they are familiar with it. Also it's technically pathfinder, so it's not as unclean as 3.5.

So since there appears to be some confusion I am in the roleplaying thread because I want to know what you guys would want to roll play? Anyone roll play sliding down a mountainside dodging debris while struggling to keep the party together? How about build a complex system of shaky junk bridges to make your away across a collapsed part of a dungeon. How about been in a top floor of a tower full of things as it's tipping over?

If you just wanna tell me some problems with my idea write it in notepad and then just close the window, I want to hear from some creative DM's and pulp action junkies!

gdiddy
2013-08-28, 08:20 AM
Your ideas are great enough and you might want to consider just polishing the ones you have. No one is suggesting that your ideas even need help. We just spotted some glaring problems that have hounded our games in the past. If someone tells you that their toast is burnt, and when you look at their house it's on fire... I let them know that they're right, but it's because their house is on fire.

You sound like you don't want to run this in DnD, which confronts the scenario you are running with tactical combat simulation, that happens to have a limited skill system. You don't want to treat this session as a combat session. So try to find a way to communicate that to your players.

You have some great ideas. I am only worried about matching your players expectations to your own.

My opinions?

Run the session diceless. I would tell your mates that you feel like they've grown as roleplayers enough that DnD's focus on tactical combat simulation and simplified skill mechanics really frustrate you. And that for combat, that's fine. But for a night at the opera with tons of interaction, let's put the ACs and BABs away. At the end of the session, have them stumble across a cache of arms and spell components or whatever and run them through a quick combat so they don't feel like you are stealth changing the system on them. Run them through a pulp diceless adventure. To provide incentive, explain that going through the entire session without mentioning a number will let them finish off their level at the end of the session. Or, if you're the punishment type, any situation they confront with "I have a 16 in jump." automatically fails, even though "I leap across the widening chasm!" would have been successful.

Use Quantum Ogres1 to get them through your set pieces and run the session that will let you have fun with them.

The Quantum Ogre:

A style of GMing that maintains player autonomy by allowing player choice that affects the story and game, while saving DM labor by making sure you don't generate unused content.

Player choices can always completely derail things, but I find that giving them concrete choices can simplify their decision making process. And it minimizes a group arguing for an hour over a misremembered fact.

Classic Example:

"There are three roads to your goal. One on a high road across the rocky barrows, one on a low road by the sea, and one under a mountain via tunnel. What path do you take?"

Their response matters, because all three of those environments pose challenges and advantages, depending on the party. But on another level, it doesn't matter because a humorous encounter with a cannibal ogre will occur the first session traveling along whatever road they picked. I will generate a different event for the players to encounter.

Ravian
2013-08-28, 08:34 AM
I once did a rather cinematic collapse sequence once. The players were in a palace fighting some guards when the npc idiot prince ordered his golem to crush them with one of the supporting pillars. Suddenly everything started to collapse and they had to get out quickly. I actually used a grid and had rolled a die every turn to determine where rocks were falling. It made for a nice degree of chance while difficult terraign was piling up and they were rushing to save their unconsious comrades (and the stupid prince)

gdiddy
2013-08-28, 08:43 AM
And that is an awesome way to run a collapse in 4e. The grid shows the action and the randomness increases the risk/excitement.

However, I don't know if OP uses a grid and it sounds like he is really averse to anything but running his homebrew creation under the pretenses of playing Pathfinder.

Aemoh87
2013-08-29, 10:22 AM
I can run with anything, but I want the illusion that we are playing pathfinder to be maintained. Also I was looking for ways to quicken things up, tips and tricks, and just cool encounter ideas.

Some general fears I have with my current puzzles is that some of them mechanically could take alot of real world time so I am working on trimming that up by maybe rolling in secret and then just creating results that I think would be the most interesting.

Another person on another forum suggested encounter as simple as get out of a collapsing room with no conventional exits. They then suggested the mechanic they would use to show the room was collapsing.

Another was add injuries, like saying a player cannot use one of their limbs and their stats now reflect this. Maybe lowering movement speed or strength.

Beleriphon
2013-08-29, 07:50 PM
You might want to investigate Gabe's game from Penny Arcade. He ran a similar scenario and even posted some of the mechanics he used for the scenario. It is for 4E, but the basic idea is easy enough to translate.

Aemoh87
2013-08-30, 09:58 AM
You might want to investigate Gabe's game from Penny Arcade. He ran a similar scenario and even posted some of the mechanics he used for the scenario. It is for 4E, but the basic idea is easy enough to translate.

Is that their streaming sessions of 4th ed or is it an article?

erikun
2013-08-30, 03:51 PM
As for skill checks... the players still have their skills but I don't want this to be a "Can you jump the gap? Can you climb the wall?" type of deal. [...] I also wanna leave saves out of this... they are BORING!
Then instead of something like "The ceiling begins to collapse, make a reflex save or jump check," say something like "The ceiling begins to collapse, what do you do?" If players say the dodge or jump out of the way, call for a their reflex save or jump checks to see how well they do. If they try holding up the ceiling or covering for someone else, then make the appropriate rolls.

Beleriphon
2013-08-30, 04:47 PM
Is that their streaming sessions of 4th ed or is it an article?

Its an article. I'm not sure about the exact link though.

gdiddy
2013-08-31, 11:51 PM
I can run with anything, but I want the illusion that we are playing pathfinder to be maintained. Also I was looking for ways to quicken things up, tips and tricks, and just cool encounter ideas.

Some general fears I have with my current puzzles is that some of them mechanically could take alot of real world time so I am working on trimming that up by maybe rolling in secret and then just creating results that I think would be the most interesting.

Another person on another forum suggested encounter as simple as get out of a collapsing room with no conventional exits. They then suggested the mechanic they would use to show the room was collapsing.

Another was add injuries, like saying a player cannot use one of their limbs and their stats now reflect this. Maybe lowering movement speed or strength.

First, I do understand and I never meant to be condescending, or anything but helpful. I would try to construct obstacles that rely on their decision making rather than rolls. Rolls slow things down but add tension. You don't need their tension or their delay, this is all about escaping with your lives.

For Example: If the unexpectedly sealed chamber is flooding from a burst aqueduct somewhere above, then let them figure out a way to drain the chamber before they drown. The character that volunteers their knowledge of architecture to look for a way out? The wizard that disintegrates his way out? The monk that swims to the bottom and Kaio-kens the floor? All Completely Acceptable. (Like all good TPK traps, it has a way out in case they are having an off day. Floating to the top reveals a small crawlspace, but I would give experience for any solution that didn't require that option. )

I would mention that there is such a thing as stress fatigue. Make sure there are places of relative safety to rest for the characters and players, while reminding them that they have to get back to the surface before they are sealed below completely.

Aemoh87
2013-09-07, 07:30 PM
Its an article. I'm not sure about the exact link though.

Bummer I read his article about falling down and having the multi-level boss fight map. That sounds amazing but, idk if I could use it this campaign. After reading a couple i have realized Tycho is an amazing DM with way to much time and disposable income. I want time and disposable income :(

Anyone have any final comments, I will be running this session early next week and I defiantly have room for one more encounter/puzzle.

Toy Killer
2013-09-07, 08:23 PM
Well, If nothing else, Let us know how it goes.

And, of course, make sure you and your party have fun!

Toofey
2013-09-07, 11:23 PM
The reflex save to avoid falling rocks may feel flat, but something that easily makes it less so is a roll every so often to see if players need to roll a reflex save for falling rocks. I know this sounds cheap (and it is) but it works to make it more exciting.

Scow2
2013-09-07, 11:55 PM
The big problem with Pathfinder for this kind of thing is that HP are the only resources your party has at risk. However, systems like Action/Hero points can alleviate this... and were the best addition to D&D 3.5 (Just another reason Eberron is the best setting ever). Action points engage players by being an alternate depletable resource to spend to interact with the world. And, action points beget action points (EG: People prone to being reckless and using action points to get them through earn more Action Points than those who play cautiously and boringly) The helplessness/flatness of a die roll is alleviated by the ability to change it with an Action Point, and raises suspense and player engagement. It's so effective that Fate is all about the expenditure of Action-Point alikes to resolve problems.

To maintain playing Pathfinder/D&D, you need to give them choices, but keep the dice in their hands. The pattern of collapse should be predictable enough that players can keep themselves off of the collapsing bits (And allow reflex saves if they judge poorly) However - to keep them 'safe', make it not save-or-dies, but instead have alternate paths constantly opening up and closing in the chaos - if someone falls... any fall less than 20' isn't likely to hurt them much if they're above first level, and most falls should be less than 10' (Even if they end up landing on just a ledge). If there's a Monk in the party, he'll feel very sad that he's not being allowed to use his class features effectively because you don't want to hurt the non-monks.

Have skills not be used as "You must be this skilled to pass", and instead have them be alternate options, so those who DO have the athletic and acrobatic skills can feel awesome during the exchange. Double Hero Points if they can use their superior athletic and acrobatic ability to save the lives of others threatened by the disaster, or assist their less-athletically-gifted allies.

As for board games... I've not played it myself, but Robo Rally might have some good ideas for handling movement in a dynamic environment.