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Anonymouswizard
2013-08-18, 05:59 AM
I have My gaming group has recently begun a pair of bi-weekly campaigns (D&D 3.5 and Mutants and Masterminds) so me and the other GMs have time to create scenarios without stress, and the newest player is causing some problems. He is one of the best optimisers in the group, but is the only one who optimises towards power rather than a concept, and this has meant that he is generally stronger than the rest of the group. Details spoiled for readability.

In addition he argues at the rulings I make to increase realism and the enjoyment of the rest of the group (like stopping him from sneak attacking a non-flatfooted opponent), and In addition he has already had one of his concepts for M&M rejected because he would be significantly more powerful than the rest of the group (able to damage multiple enemies fairly far apart in a single round using attacks, teleporting, super-speed, and move-by-action, in a group where we have a weapon-summoner [steel angel], a weapon-and-armour-creator [armsmaster], a fire-using martial artist [firefist], and a telepath [ironic pink], where the most damaging attack was armsmater hitting two adjacent mooks with a dopplehander), and looks like he'll disrupt combats by going after the main villain when everyone else is taking down the mooks currently attacking them.

In addition I am worried about what his reaction to the D&D session on Thursday (details spoiled)
we broke at the entrance to a wizard's lair, which they were supposed to try to sneak into), where about half the enemies are going to be constructs (which negate his build) for fluff reasons, I am going to try transitioning to 'theatre of the mind' combat (he specifically requested a grid when combat began in the last D&D session, so I don't know how he'll respond), and I am worried that he'll complain about the difficulty of the wizard (they're level 3 with one primary caster, he's level 12, they have been hired by an vampire wu-jen 11 to foil his plan to move the city into the plane of shadow [which includes sneaking in and stealing an orb]. The vampire cannot move openly against him without risking his status as a legal vampire.

tldr: he is in danger of disrupting the group because he puts power before character (even the youngest managed to create a funny dwarf barbarian who can only say the words 'kill', 'food' and 'hug' in Imperial, and who worships food)

So does anyone have any suggestions for getting him to act as more of a team player? I don't want to change his attitude completely, but I do want him to tone it down. Both me and my fellow GM have worries about his power-gaming tendencies, but he is a good friend of ours and is enjoyable in-game.
I will be voicing my concerns to him the next time he turns up to the game, but he is unlikely to change due to that, so I wanted to know if the playground has any suggestions on what to do. I would like to avoid booting him from the group.

jedipotter
2013-08-18, 07:40 AM
The easy tirck is to give him a optimized foe in each encounter. You might even need to do the trick where the optimized foe 'floats' until he picks a target, so that he always gets that foe. Having him always vs an optimized foe will balance out his power play.

It does not take much to toughen up foes. Just a couple points can make them much better. Multiple foes also work, breaking down a single foe into three foes.

Yuki Akuma
2013-08-18, 07:43 AM
Number one best way to deal with disruptive players:

"Hey, dude, could you tone it down? You're showing up everyone else and making it less fun."

hymer
2013-08-18, 07:44 AM
You could ask his advice on how to deal with a player who optimizes far more than the rest of the group. Giving him a say in the solution may make it go down easier.

molten_dragon
2013-08-18, 07:57 AM
I have My gaming group has recently begun a pair of bi-weekly campaigns (D&D 3.5 and Mutants and Masterminds) so me and the other GMs have time to create scenarios without stress, and the newest player is causing some problems. He is one of the best optimisers in the group, but is the only one who optimises towards power rather than a concept, and this has meant that he is generally stronger than the rest of the group. Details spoiled for readability.

In addition he argues at the rulings I make to increase realism and the enjoyment of the rest of the group (like stopping him from sneak attacking a non-flatfooted opponent), and In addition he has already had one of his concepts for M&M rejected because he would be significantly more powerful than the rest of the group (able to damage multiple enemies fairly far apart in a single round using attacks, teleporting, super-speed, and move-by-action, in a group where we have a weapon-summoner [steel angel], a weapon-and-armour-creator [armsmaster], a fire-using martial artist [firefist], and a telepath [ironic pink], where the most damaging attack was armsmater hitting two adjacent mooks with a dopplehander), and looks like he'll disrupt combats by going after the main villain when everyone else is taking down the mooks currently attacking them.

In addition I am worried about what his reaction to the D&D session on Thursday (details spoiled)
we broke at the entrance to a wizard's lair, which they were supposed to try to sneak into), where about half the enemies are going to be constructs (which negate his build) for fluff reasons, I am going to try transitioning to 'theatre of the mind' combat (he specifically requested a grid when combat began in the last D&D session, so I don't know how he'll respond), and I am worried that he'll complain about the difficulty of the wizard (they're level 3 with one primary caster, he's level 12, they have been hired by an vampire wu-jen 11 to foil his plan to move the city into the plane of shadow [which includes sneaking in and stealing an orb]. The vampire cannot move openly against him without risking his status as a legal vampire.

tldr: he is in danger of disrupting the group because he puts power before character (even the youngest managed to create a funny dwarf barbarian who can only say the words 'kill', 'food' and 'hug' in Imperial, and who worships food)

So does anyone have any suggestions for getting him to act as more of a team player? I don't want to change his attitude completely, but I do want him to tone it down. Both me and my fellow GM have worries about his power-gaming tendencies, but he is a good friend of ours and is enjoyable in-game.
I will be voicing my concerns to him the next time he turns up to the game, but he is unlikely to change due to that, so I wanted to know if the playground has any suggestions on what to do. I would like to avoid booting him from the group.

Just talk to him. If he's a good friend, then he shouldn't mind toning it back if you ask him nicely. Make sure you give him plenty of opportunities to shine too though. It sounds like you're kind of trying to screw him over a little too (only letting him sneak attack flat footed opponents, filling half a dungeon with constructs that his class abilities don't work against, etc.). And I'd get irritated too if you made the main enemy we were supposed to fight in a dungeon level 12 when I was level 3. Give them realistic enemies to fight, not overpowering enemies that they're supposed to hide and run away from.

On the other side, you should also maybe try to help your other players optimize their characters a little better. Rogues aren't very powerful at all, even a well-optimized one, and if your other players are being outshined by this one's optimized rogue, maybe they need some help making better characters.

It also sounds like you tend to run a game with a lot of houserules (i.e. no sneak attacks on flanked enemies, not using a grid for combat). It's usually best to warn someone of that kind of thing ahead of time and make sure that they're still interested in playing. It's much better to have a player and a DM agree ahead of time that they're better off not playing together because their playstyles don't mesh than to let the player join and have to kick him out later.

Anonymouswizard
2013-08-18, 08:31 AM
The main problem with that is that he is playing a 'hide and then sneak attack' rogue, which means that either the foe would be killed instantly, or that it would be too hard for the group to put down. I have a fighter 5 (with a template, haven't decided yet) as the intended 'boss' of the adventure, and am not worried that it will be too powerful than any of them, what is more problematic is that I (and especially the GM for M&M) don't want him to go after the most powerful enemy first, because he will probably kill it before the rest of the party gets a chance, which makes boss encounters hard to prepare (my boss encoutners are either 'this monster is so powerful you are meant to be scared by it [but kill it if you think you can]', or a 'leader' with 2-5 mooks that die to one or two hits), as he will go after and kill the main attraction while the others are fighting mooks.

The game plays fine when it isn't combat, the problem is that inside combat I can't send a level-appropriate group in without 2/3rds of the party getting to act. The main thing I want to know is how do I avoid having him go straight for the great big enemy rather than helping out the others.

the 'dungeon (spoilered to save length)
The main thing with the level 12 boss is that he isn't supposed to be the boss, I was expecting them to try sneaking into his sanctum and steal the orb (fairly simple, it isn't meant to be a 'dungeon', so there aren't many traps), most of the monsters are constructs inside, but for most of the session they will probably be fighting either fey or humanoids. I am not trying to screw him over (a case of about 2 rooms of constructs and mortal guards/apprentices, a few simple puzzles, and a get the orb without the powerful wizard noticing [he'll be putting up a wall of force at the beginning of the fight, call the town guards in to drag them away, and not engage unless they make a giant blunder], and then back into the city to do some sandboxing. The constructs are there as it makes sense for a wizard to have some, but they are not the primary enemy in the main part of the adventure).

The main problem with D&D is that even though we have 4 D&D newbies (and he knew about at least 2 of them when he made his character) he has not dailed down his optimisation. I know a rogue isn't a problem (I'm happy I don't have to deal with CoDzilla from him, and would love him to play a wizard, but he just tries to create someone who can muscle past everything).

'houserules'
[soiler]Also, the no grid I want because that's how I learned to play D&D (this was with my dad's old red-box), and for clarification on the sneak attack, he was expecting it to work just because he was hidden, and I use sneak attack as written (when a foe is flanked or would be denied their dex bonus to AC, so you can sneak attack someone who hasn't acted in combat yet (flatfooted), paralyzed or unconcious, restrained, or else had no dex bonus, but not if they had just acted. I am fine with theatre of the mind being '"I flank the orc with R" "R, are you okay with S flanking the orc next to you?" "sure", and think it could make combat more enjoyable as it is LESS limited.[/spoiler]

The last thing I won't to do is kick him out, and when he isn't being disrupted (a 5 minute row about whether or not he can sneak attack, going after 'team effort' monsters) he is very enjoyable in game (there are only two reasons why I would call a vote to kick someone from the group, which are immaturity and not being a nice, friendly person). My main problem is that he is used to playing D&D a certain way, and from experience is not good with those expectations being broken.

My current plan to to stop him being haughty about his optimisation (he has bragged about grappling a dragon to death with a level 9 monk in another game, and being able to do more damage than a wizard with an optimised rogue), and to suggest that he generalise his rogue so that I can make interesting encounters without him killing the most powerful enemy within 1 or 2 rounds.

tldr: the problem is not actually the optimising as such, it's the attitude to the game.

Tengu_temp
2013-08-18, 10:04 AM
Ask the other players if they feel overshadowed. If they don't, problem solved!

But if they do mind that he's so powerful, then simply ask him to tone down his character a little, because he's way above everyone else's power level and his bragging about it makes the game less fun for others - and the game is all about fun.


The easy tirck is to give him a optimized foe in each encounter. You might even need to do the trick where the optimized foe 'floats' until he picks a target, so that he always gets that foe. Having him always vs an optimized foe will balance out his power play.

It does not take much to toughen up foes. Just a couple points can make them much better. Multiple foes also work, breaking down a single foe into three foes.

Bad idea. This will quickly turn into "overpowered main character fights the main bad guy, his weak sidekicks tackle the mooks", thus giving the powergamer even more spotlight.

jedipotter
2013-08-18, 10:27 AM
Bad idea. This will quickly turn into "overpowered main character fights the main bad guy, his weak sidekicks tackle the mooks", thus giving the powergamer even more spotlight.

Correct, you don't want to have the power player take on the big bad while the rest of the group takes on mooks. But that is not what I said.

Make any for that the character encounters tough for him. So say 15 giant rats attack the group. 13 are normal, but two are super rats...and they go for the power character.



The main thing I want to know is how do I avoid having him go straight for the great big enemy rather than helping out the others.

Don't have such obvious big, bad foes. Have a group of fighter thugs that all look the same (''armor and weapons''), don't have ''seven of the fighters are in plain gray armor and one is in red and black spiked full plate''. Mix it up.

You can also make weak foes seem tough. Things like smite, sneak attrack, favored Foe bonus and critical hits can make even a weak foe seem tough. So when thug foe #4 does like 20 damage, it might seem as if they are the leader

You can also put the leader out of reach. It is easy enough to have them on a big rock, tower top, or whatever...so you can't just walk over to them. Magic is great here too, as you can have all sorts of one shot stuff.

Anonymouswizard
2013-08-18, 12:27 PM
Ask the other players if they feel overshadowed. If they don't, problem solved!

But if they do mind that he's so powerful, then simply ask him to tone down his character a little, because he's way above everyone else's power level and his bragging about it makes the game less fun for others - and the game is all about fun.

I will of course check with the other players (although the same concern has been voiced by the GM of M&M, he was less free with what we could take, and everyone has to run their sheet by him before they can sit down at the game).


Correct, you don't want to have the power player take on the big bad while the rest of the group takes on mooks. But that is not what I said.

Make any for that the character encounters tough for him. So say 15 giant rats attack the group. 13 are normal, but two are super rats...and they go for the power character.

And that sort of arbitrary separation is something that I specifically don't want, as it is unfair on him for his optimisation. In addition the group generally ganga up on enemies if they can survive multiple hits, so it would just be '13 rats led by 2 super-rats'.


Don't have such obvious big, bad foes. Have a group of fighter thugs that all look the same (''armor and weapons''), don't have ''seven of the fighters are in plain gray armor and one is in red and black spiked full plate''. Mix it up.

You can also make weak foes seem tough. Things like smite, sneak attrack, favored Foe bonus and critical hits can make even a weak foe seem tough. So when thug foe #4 does like 20 damage, it might seem as if they are the leader

You can also put the leader out of reach. It is easy enough to have them on a big rock, tower top, or whatever...so you can't just walk over to them. Magic is great here too, as you can have all sorts of one shot stuff.

Although this is advice I should have thought of myself, and is leading to interesting ideas, such as having the 'scary' armour be on the weaker characters as a distraction, having the 'boss' fights turn into 'gimic' fights (the enemy is a wizard behind a wall of force and isn't interested in battle, but you have to take him down for X reason; there is no 'boss monster' but instead 5 tanks on the ground and 10 sharpshooters on balconies; or even 'the guy in red and black plate mail has been trapped in a resilient sphere, but his crown of tactics allows him to direct the mooks better so find a way to be rid of him) so that while his optimisation is a big help in normal fights (because if it is a fight against a golem and 2 soldier's I don't care if he takes the soldier's down in one hit, but I do mind with single target fights), he has little mechanical advantage in the important ones. Thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it goes.

JHShadon
2013-08-18, 02:01 PM
(even the youngest managed to create a funny dwarf barbarian who can only say the words 'kill', 'food' and 'hug' in Imperial, and who worships food)

A little off-topic, but is that Dwarf eloquent in his native tongue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EloquentInMyNativeTongue)?

icefractal
2013-08-18, 02:24 PM
and for clarification on the sneak attack, he was expecting it to work just because he was hidden, and I use sneak attack as written (when a foe is flanked or would be denied their dex bonus to AC, so you can sneak attack someone who hasn't acted in combat yet (flatfooted), paralyzed or unconcious, restrained, or else had no dex bonus, but not if they had just acted.Actually, creatures are also flat-footed against an attack from a hidden/invisible attacker. I don't think attacking from stealth is something you need to discourage, because he's already limiting himself to one sneak attack / round that way (remaining hidden after attacking is +20 DC), whereas with flanking he could TWF and sneak attack several times.

As far as "going after the boss first" - I guess everyone else in the group is a melee type, no archers or offensive casters? Because barring the BBEG being actually unreachable (behind a wall, hidden, ...), there's no reason not to target him from the start. After all, he's more dangerous than the mooks and not someone you want to act unimpeded.

If you want everyone to fight the mooks first, then send the mooks out first, before the boss enters the scene. Also, maybe make the bosses a bit tougher - what kind of boss is going down too quickly from a 3rd level Rogue?

Gwazi Magnum
2013-08-18, 03:00 PM
I really feel the need to bring this up since it looks like no one else is.

Making an optimized character isn't a problem. It basically means they have put time and effort into learning the games working. Enough that they're character usually turns out better than other players. And being an optimizer myself, it is a common occurrence where those who do not optimize get annoyed at this, where although they have a point in being less effective than the optimizer it is also a case of the other players being upset that someone else is doing better than them.

And there's nothing worse than a player to be punished by his group for being good at something. My main suggestion honestly is not to try to have him be a less effective character, but ask if she can stand back at times and let others handle things. If you purposely weaken his character that means nothing, the other players aren't truly doing better, they had it rigged that way for them then because of DM fiat ruling of a character nerf.

If he refuses to sit around and wait (which is understandable, no one wants to be told 'Hey you, don't do the thing you're best at cause we want credit' simply set up adventures that does give more opportunities for the other characters to do their stuff. Not stopping your optimizer from feeling useful however, simply open more doors for the rest of the group, not closing doors for the optimizer.

Also I'd suggest trying to learn a bit from him, one of the best ways to deal with a power imbalance from players to learn and work off one another. If you learn some tricks from him, the other players could become better and it's now less an issue to work with. In my group though they have the mindset of they're not comfortable stepping outside what they already know... which is usually why the power unbalance continues. I don't even make that broken characters, it'd be easy to catch up and only takes a small effort and willingness from other players to learn, and when they don't want to it often turns into the case as mentioned above of punishing a player for being good at something.

tldr: Ask to see if he can step back a bit at times, try to build adventures to open more doors for the non-optimized players, see if the optimizer can teach the group some things so the power imbalance is not an issue.

-Also, you sent a level 12 wizard against a level 3 party?
This could clue in as to why he optimizes so much... That is an un-winnable fight you have set up there without massive optimizing.

----------

As for arguing the rules... This is hard to comment on without actually being there. Because in an old group I was in I had a horrid DM. He would make all sorts of ridiculous rulings because he was DM and he 'had authority' cause of that. I talked about it on the forums before, he did things like 'Listen and spot check penalty', 'pay gold to roleplay', 'reloading now stops you from attacking even with rapid reload' etc. Essentially he claims to make 'hard' campaigns where really he just makes campaigns where he justifies being unfair and cruel to the players. But if he were to ever come on the forum and talk about how I spoke up against this, he could easily highlight me as an awful player and get everyone against me. So whenever a DM on here complains about a problem player I always take a step back and say 'are they truly being a problem player, or is the DM being unreasonable and now getting mad that someone is highlighting it?'.

So basically, here I'd suggest talk to him. See exactly what his issues is and as a group decide what rulings you want to work by. And also step back and ask yourself if you are in fact being too controlling as a DM. You may not be, but it's always good to ask yourself that to avoid becoming that kind of DM and provide a better experience to the players.

tldr: Step back and see if there's a chance unfair rulings are being made that he may simply be highlighting. Either way ask the whole group what they think of the rulings honestly.

and note here: Try not to be pressuring/demanding as a DM with asking. In my group people hate conflict, so the DM is asking for honest opinions but gives the impression he'll be mad, hurt etc if they are honest they will lie just to avoid causing issues and the campaign will continue to hurt as a result.

nedz
2013-08-18, 04:15 PM
You can use things like terrain and BC to slow them down when going for the leader, but taking out the enemy leader is a good tactic which parties should be doing anyway.

If a certain character acquires a reputation then they may find themselves targeted in a similar manner. This only really works in long combats or with recurring villains.

This said I'm not sure you need to do anything: the newbie players will improve quite quickly and catch up — possibly overtaking him.

Also Player ability > Build > Class, which means that his rogue will be less disruptive when this happens since Rogue is a mid-tier class.

Madwand99
2013-08-19, 03:19 PM
Nothing I've heard about this player so far sounds like a problem. What does sound like a problem is an imperfect grasp of the rules, particularly by the DM, but also by this player. The DM doesn't know how how hiding works, and the player didn't know the rules well enough to explain them. In the future when rules debates come up, actually take some time during the game to research the answer, and stick to what the rules tell you. In this case, yes, a hidden PC denies enemies who can't see them their dex bonus to AC, and thus he can sneak attack.

A "theatre of the mind", while it can work in some games, is (I think) not a good approach for a D&D 3+ or Pathfinder game. It tends to screw over certain classes (the ones requiring clever maneuvering and positioning, or placement of AoEs) too much. Use a grid for encounters.

Having a player that likes to go after the "bosses" in an encounter isn't a problem either. Let him. Maybe he'll succeed and feel awesome, maybe he'll fail and get smarter. He's playing a stealthy assassin, let him play his PC. It's not your job to decide how the PCs overcome an encounter either as a group or individually, and going after the boss first is a valid tactic. If the other players feel overshadowed, encourage them to optimize a bit more. Help them be better.

If the player isn't a good roleplayer (something that is completely independent of whether he is an optimizer or not), this can be tricky to fix but isn't necessarily a problem. Try to have NPCs talk to him occasionally. Let the roleplaying actions he takes have important consequences, for good or ill. Encourage him to roleplay.

Lorsa
2013-08-20, 05:41 AM
Not all roleplayers are meant to be in the same group.

Discussion about your expectations is a good way to figure this out.