Possible Monk fixes, anyone?

[Septimus Faber]

It's everybody's least favourite class - the Monk. Thematically, it's brilliant. Run around things in circles until they're dizzy and then punch the living daylights out of them with a 4d6 lethal Unarmed Strike. But mechanically, it's unquestionably the weakest class in Core.

So here's the question - how to fix it? Does anyone have any ideas that could actually make it a viable class to play?

(Incidentally, I've played two monks. They both died horribly.)

[Namfuak]

You have a few options. You can play one of the many builds that takes advantage of unarmed strikes (and mostly just unarmed strikes), you can work with your DM to flesh out the unarmed swordsage suggestion listed in ToB (or just play a straight swordsage and pick up the unarmed strike feats), or use one of the myriad monk fixes in the homebrew area of this forum (jaronk's is probably the most well known, to the point that it comes up in google suggestions).

Also, you're a day early, tomorrow is Monkday :smallsmile:

[Frozen_Feet]

You can take a look at my fix by clicking the links on my sig. It relies largely on my feat fix to give it most of its new tricks.

Long story short, it gets more skillpoints and more feats, and both those feats and skillpoints can now do more things. Monk can even sacrifice flavor for power and take a familiar now. :smalltongue:

[Yuki Akuma]

Giving monks the ability to perform a full-round attack after moving might help. Perhaps give them Pounce.

[137beth]

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) is my favorite.

Also, the Qinggong Monk archetype is decently powerful.

[JusticeZero]

A decent start can be had by
1: giving them martial weapon proficiency,
2: giving them full BAB progression,
3: using the Pathfinder version of the class, and
4: make sure to use the archetypes liberally.
It might also help if you can
5: find clothes enchanted as armor and
6: have a source of natural weapon enhancing items.

That said, there are a lot of alternate builds using other classes that explicitly do the "unarmored and unarmed brawler" thing well that you might look into.

[Big Fau]

Thematically, it's brilliant. Run around things in circles until they're dizzy and then punch the living daylights out of them with a 4d6 lethal Unarmed Strike.

No it isn't. Thematically, for a class that focuses on enlightenment and unarmed combat, a lot of it's class features are out of place, downright random, or don't synergize. Diamond Body, Still Mind, Unarmed Strike, Flurry of Blows, and Wholeness of Body are the only ones that are on-theme, and not all of those are good features.

[fishyfishyfishy]

This one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122) is my favorite.


This is also my favorite. I haven't had the opportunity to see it in action yet, but the mechanics are solid.

[DMVerdandi]

I think a simple, yet interesting fix would be to give them spellcasting.
Yep. Usually one would say that it would take too long to give monks their own list. I say, no way.

Here is what you do. Mimic the Divine crusader class.:smallbiggrin:
In Complete Divine, there is a class called, the divine crusader which is for all intended purposes, a full caster, BUT, they can only cast spells from one domain.

Instead of that, give monks the ability to cast Wis-based spells off of every domain that a deity gets. If they do not have a deity, give them 5 domains that they can cast from of their choice, but they cannot chose domains that they do not posess, unless they have a true neutral stance.

So, if I am a monk of we jas, I gain all of her domains. Refluffing a little, with this... Class variant, you could get rid of all of the monk abilities that don't progress and scale. Keep unarmed strike, wis to ac, enhanced speed, stunning attack. Take away everything else, and add a new name. Call this one, the Ascetic.

[Blisstake]

Depends what you want to accomplish with a fix. Keep them competitive with other physical damage classes, keep them competitive with maneuver-based classes, or keep them competitive with casters?

[Prince Raven]

Full BAB progression and removing the flurry of blows penalty would go a long way towards making me want to play a monk.

[Septimus Faber]

Right... this is slightly awkward. But I take back every negative comment I've made about the Monk. I just had a very surreal experience.

Essentially, a friend and I were debating whether Monk or Ninja (Complete Adventurer) was mechanically better. So we rolled up 20th-level characters and had a duel.

We were gestalt, he was a ninja 20/barbarian 20, I was a Monk 10/Fist of Zuoken 10/Fighter 20. We were duelling in a sort of dungeon-maze type thing. I completely expected him to smash me into the ground, since ninja can do its walk-through-walls, Hah! you're dead! sort of thing, while Monk runs around punching stuff and has a reputation for being underpowered. Instead, I annihilated him. He spent all his ki becoming ethereal, while I ran around the dungeon much too fast for him to catch me, then when he came to sudden-strike me I used most of my nine attacks per round to do 6d8 + 14 damage each time. Before anyone says this was because of my FoZ levels, I only used one power (Inertial Barrier) during the entire duel.

Can someone explain how this happened?

Thanks, SF

[strider24seven]

Monk.

You are spelling "Swordsage" wrong.

[Fax Celestis]

Here is mine (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98238).

[Feytalist]

T.G. Oskar's Retooled Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) says hi.

Also, Tashalatora.


Also also, if you're trying to showcase Monk vs. Ninja, why the utter hell do you go gestalt.

[137beth]

Right... this is slightly awkward. But I take back every negative comment I've made about the Monk. I just had a very surreal experience.

Essentially, a friend and I were debating whether Monk or Ninja (Complete Adventurer) was mechanically better. So we rolled up 20th-level characters and had a duel.

We were gestalt, he was a ninja 20/barbarian 20, I was a Monk 10/Fist of Zuoken 10/Fighter 20. We were duelling in a sort of dungeon-maze type thing. I completely expected him to smash me into the ground, since ninja can do its walk-through-walls, Hah! you're dead! sort of thing, while Monk runs around punching stuff and has a reputation for being underpowered. Instead, I annihilated him. He spent all his ki becoming ethereal, while I ran around the dungeon much too fast for him to catch me, then when he came to sudden-strike me I used most of my nine attacks per round to do 6d8 + 14 damage each time. Before anyone says this was because of my FoZ levels, I only used one power (Inertial Barrier) during the entire duel.

Can someone explain how this happened?

Thanks, SF
1. Ninja is also really weak...
2. Because he wasn't playing a ninja and you weren't playing a monk, you both gestalted with better classes.
3. Tiers aren't about raw combat potential, and they definitely are not about pvp--people don't normally compare classes based on pvp potential, since that's not what happens in most games, and it isn't representative of actual play.

[cerin616]

In addition, Monks arn't necessarily "Weak". Played correctly they can do a ton of damage really quickly.
the problem is, making them playable requires them to be well optimized, and then they are a half trick pony. I would say one trick, but honestly, the barbarian still does your job better.

In addition, if a ninja is "chasing" you, either he isn't playing ninja right, or you are meta gaming because you know where he is when you shouldn't.

[strider24seven]

In addition, Monks arn't necessarily "Weak". Played correctly they can do a ton of damage really quickly.
the problem is, making them playable requires them to be well optimized, and then they are a half trick pony. I would say one trick, but honestly, the barbarian still does your job better.

In addition, if a ninja is "chasing" you, either he isn't playing ninja right, or you are meta gaming because you know where he is when you shouldn't.

I hate to point this out to you, but by the same logic a Commoner isn't necessarily "weak" either, since anyone with STR 13 can pick up Power Attack and Shock Trooper and start hacking away with a Greatsword. Or use Eldritch Corruption with Magical Training with Earth Spell to get a 9th level slot for Shapechange. Or buy a Candle of Invocation.

Compared to classes not named Truenamer, Samurai (CW version), Commoner, Expert, Warrior, or Aristocrat, Monks are weak.

Do note that the Adept isn't listed above. That an NPC class is stronger than the Monk should indicate its shortcomings.

[Fax Celestis]

Even Experts can be pretty boss in the right hands.

Or as a dip class to get those ranks you need in skills before you get somewhere. "Any 10 skills as class skills"? Yes please.

[inuyasha]

My fix: add full bab, that's it

[strider24seven]

Even Experts can be pretty boss in the right hands.

Or as a dip class to get those ranks you need in skills before you get somewhere. "Any 10 skills as class skills"? Yes please.

Lucid Dreaming, drag into Dreamheart, win.

[prufock]

There are more monk fixes than you can shake a stick at. Here's mine (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Monk), not yet playtested.

[Telonius]

Right... this is slightly awkward. But I take back every negative comment I've made about the Monk. I just had a very surreal experience.

Essentially, a friend and I were debating whether Monk or Ninja (Complete Adventurer) was mechanically better. So we rolled up 20th-level characters and had a duel.

We were gestalt, he was a ninja 20/barbarian 20, I was a Monk 10/Fist of Zuoken 10/Fighter 20. We were duelling in a sort of dungeon-maze type thing. I completely expected him to smash me into the ground, since ninja can do its walk-through-walls, Hah! you're dead! sort of thing, while Monk runs around punching stuff and has a reputation for being underpowered. Instead, I annihilated him. He spent all his ki becoming ethereal, while I ran around the dungeon much too fast for him to catch me, then when he came to sudden-strike me I used most of my nine attacks per round to do 6d8 + 14 damage each time. Before anyone says this was because of my FoZ levels, I only used one power (Inertial Barrier) during the entire duel.

Can someone explain how this happened?

Thanks, SF

Your Ninja forgot to pack a Tanglefoot bag.

[Person_Man]

The homebrew versions above are better then mine. But a simpler solution is to just make the Monk a prestige class, and shove 20 levels worth of mostly mediocre abilities into 10 levels. Like this:

Person_Man's Prestige Monk

{table=head]Level |BAB |Fort|Ref|Will|Special |Unarmed| Fast Move
1st | +1| +2 | +2 | +2 | Ki Strike (damage, magic), Fast Movement, AC Bonus| 1d8 | +10
2nd | +2| +3 | +3 | +3 | Purity of Body, Slow Fall (any distance), Bonus Feat | 1d8| +10
3rd | +3| +3 | +3 | +3 | Evasion | 1d10 | +20
4th | +4| +4 | +4 | +4 | Ki Strike (alignment, extra attack), Wholeness of Body | 1d10| +20
5th | +5| +4 | +4 | +4 | Diamond Body, Bonus Feat | 2d6 | +30
6th | +6| +5 | +5 | +5 | Abundant Step | 2d6 | +30
7th | +7| +5 | +5 | +5 | Ki Strike (adamantine, extra attack), Diamond Soul | 2d8| +40
8th | +8| +6 | +6 | +6 | Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Timeless Body, Bonus Feat | 2d8 | +40
9th | +9| +6 | +6 | +6 | Quivering Palm, Perfect Self | 2d10 | +50
10th | +10| +7 | +7 | +7 | Empty Body | 2d10 | +60
[/table]

Class Abilities:

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Jump or Tumble 8 ranks.

Hit Die: d8

Class Skills: The monk’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex).

Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int bonus.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Monks are proficient with their own Unarmed Strike, plus the club, crossbow (light or heavy), dagger, handaxe, javelin, kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, siangham, and sling.

Ki Strike (Ex): As per the Monk's original Improved Unarmed Strike ability (including bonus damage based on the chart above, counting as natural and manufactured, etc) and Ki Strike (magic) ability.

At 4th level, the Monk's Unarmed Strike are also treated as Lawful or Chaotic and Good or Evil, matching the alignment of the Monk. This bypasses certain types of damage reduction. For example, a Lawful Good Monk would have a Lawful Good Unarmed Strike (which bypasses the damage reduction of some magic or Chaotic and Evil enemies). If your alignment drifts into Neutral, you lose this ability for that alignment axis. For example, the Unarmed Strike of a Lawful Neutral Monk would only be Lawfully aligned. In addition, whenever they make a full attack action using only Unarmed Strike, natural weapons, and/or special Monk weapons, they gain one additional attack at their highest base attack bonus.

At 7th level, the Monk's Unarmed Strike also counts as adamantine, and whenever they make a full attack action using only Unarmed Strike, natural weapons, and/or special Monk weapons, they gain another additional attack at their highest base attack bonus.

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) plus his Monk class level to his AC. These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

Evasion: You gain Evasion. If you already have or later gain Evasion from another source, you instead gain Improved Evasion.

Bonus Feats: Gained at 2nd, 5th, and 8th levels. Feel free to take any Monk-ish Feat you feel is appropriate from the standard Monk class or any of it's numerous variants, such as Stunning Fist, Combat Reflexes, etc.

Everything Else: As per the standard Monk abilities, except you should change any calculation (Stunning Fist uses per day, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul) from Monk level to twice your Monk level, and readjust Save DC's as needed per standard PrC rules (10 + Monk level + Wisdom Bonus, instead of 10 + 1/2 Monk level + Wisdom Bonus).

[bekeleven]

Monks don't necessarily need pounce. I would give them full BAB and powerful build, but I wouldn't necessarily give them pounce.

Instead, I would just let them apply their flurries in more places. For instance, a level 9 monk gets an extra hit with flurry. By that level he should be getting that extra hit on charges and AoOs. He should also, already or soon, be getting it on standard action attacks. Congratulations, you've now let the monk combine his two most powerful abilities, his speed and his flurry.

[ericgrau]

<Chugs>

...

Um, check the homebrew section every monday.

In casual games you don't need to do any homebrew. Just learn the special attack rules, use a weapon at least most of the time, and str > wis. Buffs and/or potions are much more helpful than usual. For more optimization, depends how much optimization and pick your favorite set of boosts out there.

[Gwendol]

Flurry as a standard action is my typical suggestion.

[Pickford]

Right... this is slightly awkward. But I take back every negative comment I've made about the Monk. I just had a very surreal experience.

Essentially, a friend and I were debating whether Monk or Ninja (Complete Adventurer) was mechanically better. So we rolled up 20th-level characters and had a duel.

We were gestalt, he was a ninja 20/barbarian 20, I was a Monk 10/Fist of Zuoken 10/Fighter 20. We were duelling in a sort of dungeon-maze type thing. I completely expected him to smash me into the ground, since ninja can do its walk-through-walls, Hah! you're dead! sort of thing, while Monk runs around punching stuff and has a reputation for being underpowered. Instead, I annihilated him. He spent all his ki becoming ethereal, while I ran around the dungeon much too fast for him to catch me, then when he came to sudden-strike me I used most of my nine attacks per round to do 6d8 + 14 damage each time. Before anyone says this was because of my FoZ levels, I only used one power (Inertial Barrier) during the entire duel.

Can someone explain how this happened?

Thanks, SF

Is it normal around here that when people say 'monk' or 'wizard' or 'paladin', what they really mean is: Random amalgamation of classes where at least '1' level is in one of those classes? Because that doesn't really seem like the same thing to me.

[Gavinfoxx]

This is also my favorite.

That is also my favorite!

[Killer Angel]

My fix: add full bab, that's it

This isn't even close to sufficiency, sorry.

[JusticeZero]

Is it normal around here that when people say 'monk' or 'wizard' or 'paladin', what they really mean is: Random amalgamation of classes where at least '1' level is in one of those classes? Because that doesn't really seem like the same thing to me.
Only if the other levels feed back to the theme and powerset of the one, as a rule.

[137beth]

In any case, I don't think gestalt characters are considered "normal" on this board at all.

[Big Fau]

Is it normal around here that when people say 'monk' or 'wizard' or 'paladin', what they really mean is: Random amalgamation of classes where at least '1' level is in one of those classes? Because that doesn't really seem like the same thing to me.

How is that even remotely relevant to the post you quoted Pickford? The guy had 10 levels in Monk, not 1. I swear your logic makes no sense at all.

[Gigas Breaker]

When it comes to tashalatora I just consider the whole thing a monk.

[Ruethgar]

The wild monk ACF makes them a bit less MAD and gives them more versatility and damage output with shapeshifting. If you aren't ACFing the bonus feats away, martial monk is always an improvement. Chaos monk is also a good choice since their flurry is not as limited. Sidewinder monk can be good if you know how to fiddle with precision damage.

Not really good for improving the monk, but holy raging and hunter raging monks are good for getting class features quickly with a one level dip.

In general though I would agree with several of those before me that full BaB would help a great deal.

[Pickford]

Only if the other levels feed back to the theme and powerset of the one, as a rule.

Thematic is not the class. And Fau, 50% is not a full class. I'm surprised you didn't realize that.

[Gigas Breaker]

So ten levels of monk and ten levels of a monk prestige class is not a monk? Is a radiant servant of pelor not a cleric?

[erikun]

Right... this is slightly awkward. But I take back every negative comment I've made about the Monk. I just had a very surreal experience.

Essentially, a friend and I were debating whether Monk or Ninja (Complete Adventurer) was mechanically better. So we rolled up 20th-level characters and had a duel.

We were gestalt, he was a ninja 20/barbarian 20, I was a Monk 10/Fist of Zuoken 10/Fighter 20. We were duelling in a sort of dungeon-maze type thing. I completely expected him to smash me into the ground, since ninja can do its walk-through-walls, Hah! you're dead! sort of thing, while Monk runs around punching stuff and has a reputation for being underpowered. Instead, I annihilated him. He spent all his ki becoming ethereal, while I ran around the dungeon much too fast for him to catch me, then when he came to sudden-strike me I used most of my nine attacks per round to do 6d8 + 14 damage each time. Before anyone says this was because of my FoZ levels, I only used one power (Inertial Barrier) during the entire duel.

Can someone explain how this happened?

Thanks, SF
You used one of the Monk's few good features (movement) to negate and run out of the Ninja/Barbarian's good features (etherealness, possibly rage). Furthermore, you probably negated two of the Monk's biggest flaws: moderate BAB/HP, and no magical enhancements (if you had a weapon).

The fact that you could full attack twice in one round, possibly combined by stunning fist attacks with every single one, no doubt helped a lot to tear into your opponent. 12 attacks at full damage and no response from your opponent next round no doubt helped you win.


So ten levels of monk and ten levels of a monk prestige class is not a monk? Is a radiant servant of pelor not a cleric?
Fist of Zuoken is not exactly a Monk prestige class; it does progress flurry, but also gives psionics and a lot of other good abilities. That would be like multiclassing into Wizard and calling it a Commoner prestige class, because it gives 1/2 BAB, d4 HP, and 2+Int skill points.

[TuggyNE]

Is it normal around here that when people say 'monk' or 'wizard' or 'paladin', what they really mean is: Random amalgamation of classes where at least '1' level is in one of those classes? Because that doesn't really seem like the same thing to me.

No.

Usually around here Monk builds are one of three basic varieties: Monk 20 (and probably largely useless), Monk with prestige classes or psionic multiclassing or both (which fits nicely, given the theme of self-improvement by mental discipline), or Swordsage.

Most Wizard builds go to great lengths to ensure they advance Wizard casting as much as possible with classes designed for the purpose.

Most Paladin builds I've seen seem, if memory serves, to be low on multiclassing, with the possible exception of Paladin-designed prestige classes.


Thematic is not the class. And Fau, 50% is not a full class. I'm surprised you didn't realize that.

A prestige class designed to progress a given unique class feature is, quite obviously, closely tied to that class's purpose. Or do you just think all PrCs should die in a fire?


Fist of Zuoken is not exactly a Monk prestige class; it does progress flurry, but also gives psionics and a lot of other good abilities. That would be like multiclassing into Wizard and calling it a Commoner prestige class, because it gives 1/2 BAB, d4 HP, and 2+Int skill points.

Er. Flurry is a Monk class feature that appears just about nowhere else, and is strongly tied to its purpose. A PrC that advances that is like a PrC that advances Paladin Smite Evil, or one that advances arcane casting, or one that advances Ranger Favored Enemy: it means something.

Commoner has no such unique class feature; at most, you could attempt to claim that Druid is thematically linked because they both have Handle Animal as a skill, or some such nonsense. The cases are not at all similar.

[Gigas Breaker]

This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm) is the Fist of Zuoken. It requires still mind and progresses monk features. This is most definitely a monk class.

[T.G. Oskar]

Most Paladin builds I've seen seem, if memory serves, to be low on multiclassing, with the possible exception of Paladin-designed prestige classes.

I'd beg to differ. Using your own example, which I'll quote verbatim:


Usually around here Monk builds are one of three basic varieties: Monk 20 (and probably largely useless), Monk with prestige classes or psionic multiclassing or both (which fits nicely, given the theme of self-improvement by mental discipline), or Swordsage.

The Paladin builds are one of three basic varieties: Paladin 20 (not as effective, unless it's an ubermounted-charger or the A-Game Paladin), Paladin with prestige classes (Ordained Champ, Gray Guard and Fist of Raziel are good examples, with less-seen examples being Knight of the Raven and Pious Templar, and good choices IMO being Divine Champion and Knight of the Chalice), or Crusader.

Though, I could also add Sorcadin and Paladin/Bard/Suel Arcanamach or Knight of the Weave/Ruathar/Sublime Chord/Abjurant Champion/Spellsword as examples...in the strictest sense of the word.

There's a reason why Fighter, Monk and Paladin are often considered superb dip classes, due to their front-loading. Also, note how most of the builds tend to use (or rather, abuse) ACFs.

[TuggyNE]

I'd beg to differ. Using your own example, which I'll quote verbatim:



The Paladin builds are one of three basic varieties: Paladin 20 (not as effective, unless it's an ubermounted-charger or the A-Game Paladin), Paladin with prestige classes (Ordained Champ, Gray Guard and Fist of Raziel are good examples, with less-seen examples being Knight of the Raven and Pious Templar, and good choices IMO being Divine Champion and Knight of the Chalice), or Crusader.

Fair enough; my memory of Paladin build tendencies is and was considerably vaguer than the others.