The Ultimate Initiator

[137beth]

So, if you take a class that is a buffed version of a gestalt warblade//swordsage//crusader, would it break the tier 2 barrier?
Specifically, the class is a gestalt warblade//swordsage//crusader in every way except for maneuvers/stances/disciplines.
Ultimate Maneuvers (Ex): The Ultimate Initiator knows all nine disciplines, and all maneuvers and stances appropriate to its Initiator Level. Unlike other Initiators, the Ultimate Initiator is not limited in how many maneuvers it can use, or how often it can use them. The Ultimate Initiator may use any maneuver it knows (that is, all maneuvers which he is a high enough level to use) on any turn, without need to ready maneuvers or assume the proper Stance.

So...obviously this is at least high tier 3, since it is strictly better than a triple gestalt of tier 3 classes. It has longevity that most tier 2 classes can never match, and it has access to far more abilities at a time than most tier 2 classes. However, most of its maneuvers don't pack the same raw power that Vancian spells do, and it can do very little outside of melee combat. So what do people think? Tier 2? Overpowered-but-tier 3?

[Greenish]

Tier 3. The step between tiers 2 and 3 is a qualitative one, not a quantitative: no matter how much better you become at hitting things with a sword, you'll still be hitting things with a sword.

[limejuicepowder]

I'm thinking overpowered but tier 3. It'd be an utter monster in combat, but like you said it's OOC options aren't really any better than a normal initiator. Also, he still wouldn't have many ranged options. He also would almost never have the "ability to trivialize and/or bypass problems" that other tier 2's have; he's just brute force everything.

Yeah my vote is tier 3 - combining the classes just makes a class that's better at the things those classes are already good at, and doesn't make any more of a complete package.

[137beth]

I'm thinking overpowered but tier 3. It'd be an utter monster in combat, but like you said it's OOC options aren't really any better than a normal initiator. Also, he still wouldn't have many ranged options. He also would almost never have the "ability to trivialize and/or bypass problems" that other tier 2's have; he's just brute force everything.

Yeah my vote is tier 3 - combining the classes just makes a class that's better at the things those classes are already good at, and doesn't make any more of a complete package.

Yea, that's what I thought it would be. Tiers are really about versatility, and although knowing all maneuvers all the time is a huge boon to versatility within melee combat, it still won't give you anything outside of melee. A good comparison might be the 'versatility' of this versus a sorcerer who knows the entire polymorph line (up to its level)--the sorcerer is going to have lots of melee potential, but also have the potential to make his/her allies really powerful, and have other spells to solve other problems.

[limejuicepowder]

Yea, that's what I thought it would be. Tiers are really about versatility, and although knowing all maneuvers all the time is a huge boon to versatility within melee combat, it still won't give you anything outside of melee. A good comparison might be the 'versatility' of this versus a sorcerer who knows the entire polymorph line (up to its level)--the sorcerer is going to have lots of melee potential, but also have the potential to make his/her allies really powerful, and have other spells to solve other problems.

It'd be pretty entirely broken for the first few levels though, possibly as high as 5 or 6. Combat options would be plentiful and deadly, and he'd be nigh-unkillable for low CR monsters.

Now that I think about it, he'd be hard(ish) to take down at higher levels as well. Being able to use any maneuver any time means his saves would essentially be "not gonna work" via the diamond mind counters. Anything that happened to stick would be eliminated the following turn with IHS. That's a pretty strong defense, and comes fully online by level 5.

[Vaz]

Even Tier 3 characters like the Shugenja, Ardent and Wilder have the option to remake reality (through reality revision or miracle, or lower powered versions thereof).

Without such a wide ranging ability to manipulate the world at will to a similar extend, such a character is one still, as said, hitting things.

However, if it is able to make use of all stances at the same time, with its capstone it moves a bit closer to Tier 3. While a lot goes towards 'making things hit better' some of the Shadow Hand stances do improve it somewhat.

[icefractal]

I think this is a case where the tier system having just one dimension breaks down a bit. While in general versatile classes are more powerful, you can get extremes of raw power like this where that's not the whole story.

I mean yes, if you were making very high-Op characters, and the DM was throwing the toughest **** you could possible handle (at basically your own pace), then a Wizard would still have the edge. But in any campaign going remotely by any published adventures, using anything close to standard monsters, the UI will destroy everything in combat.

Although that said, a two-person party with a Wizard and a UI would actually work, assuming the Wizard was utility-oriented.