What is the difference between limbo and far realm?

[CyberThread]

So what are the true differences between the limbo plane, and the far realm , they seem to go hand in hand, yet the far realm is far more terrible?

[AmberVael]

Limbo is disorderly and raw reality. The Far Realms are a place outside of reality. The first breaks down reality to its component pieces and shifts them around as it pleases, while the second does not follow reality's rules at all.

[Eldan]

How are they similar?

Anyway. Limbo is ultimate freedom. All the building blocks of the multiverse are laid out for you and with just a bit of faith and willpower, you can simply construct your personal little slice of paradise. You have to be able to defend it, of course, against all the other people who want to build their own paradise, instead, but you have your chance. What happens in uncontrolled parts of it is unpredictable, of course, but there are rules it follows, as it is still an outer plane. It has petitioners, it has exemplars, it responds to souls and belief.


The Far Realm is not part of the multiverse and does not follow any of those rules. Creatures of this multiverse can not really perceive or comprehend it, since were not made for it. It is hostile to us, we are hostile to it, and we can never cooperate or coexist.

[drack]

OK, you get the idea of celestia and hell being the planes of good and eavil, and eberon and fearun being in the game but different cosmologies? Far realms is like eberon where it's a separate multiverse (as stated above), Limbo is the plane that embodies pure chaos just as hell does evil. Being pure chaos it can be altered by thought alone , and has it's own oddities. :smallsmile:

[awa]

you can go to limbo for an adventure. you can go to the far realm but instead of an adventure the dm says make a new character.

[Slipperychicken]

you can go to the far realm but instead of an adventure the dm says make a new character.

Going to the Far Realm to "adventure" is like going for a swim in an erupting volcano. It means you're an idiot and deserve whatever happens to you.


I imagine the Far Realm as a place that one would only willingly enter as a last resort to accomplish something otherwise impossible. Simply going there might tear a hole in spacetime, allowing the nightmares within to escape into reality and warp it a little. Even then, your brain is liable to shatter every hour you're there.

I feel like the Far Realms' insanity wouldn't all be malevolent. Interacting with things there would be like using a Rod of Wonder, except using this list (http://centralia.aquest.com/downloads/NLRMEv2.pdf) off effects instead; you might get fireballed one moment, you might get a swarm of harmless butterflies the next. In any case, the truly dangerous hazards should be visible as they pass through the layers.

[drack]

Oh boy, I better avoid going no new multiverses then. If that's what happens when I go to the far realms (vanilla multiverse different enough from our own to drive both of us mad), then I better watch out least the same hole be torn when I go to eberon (Same story but more similar to home multiverse). :smalleek:

[Slipperychicken]

Oh boy, I better avoid going no new multiverses then. If that's what happens when I go to the far realms (vanilla multiverse different enough from our own to drive both of us mad), then I better watch out least the same hole be torn when I go to eberon (Same story but more similar to home multiverse). :smalleek:

The Far Realms is treated as one plane, you can look it up in Manual of the Planes. It's outside reality entirely, although I could see a remote chance of winding up in a different campaign setting.

That would be pretty awesome; jump through a portal and wind up in the Talenta plains being hunted by Halflings on dinosaurs :smallbiggrin:

[Eldan]

I feel like the Far Realms' insanity wouldn't all be malevolent. Interacting with things there would be like using a Rod of Wonder, except using this list (http://centralia.aquest.com/downloads/NLRMEv2.pdf) off effects instead; you might get fireballed one moment, you might get a swarm of harmless butterflies the next. In any case, the truly dangerous hazards should be visible as they pass through the layers.

No. No, see, that's Limbo. That's the kind of thing that happens on Limbo, it's basically the home of wild magic.
It's too understandable. Your players and their characters know what fireballs are. They know what butterflies are. You don't meet such normal things in the far realm.
It is indescribable. That's the definition. You can not comprehend it. If the DM can decribe it, it's not truly the far realm.

[drack]

No. No, see, that's Limbo. That's the kind of thing that happens on Limbo, it's basically the home of wild magic.
It's too understandable. Your players and their characters know what fireballs are. They know what butterflies are. You don't meet such normal things in the far realm.
It is indescribable. That's the definition. You can not comprehend it. If the DM can decribe it, it's not truly the far realm.

Indeed. :smallbiggrin:
Edit: reading the MotP entry it looks like far realms multiverse spat out all their funny guys into a plane in normal cosmology. (Far Realms is one of those things wizards loves to toss around. It's a multiverse beyond comprehension, but it looks like this plane was thrown in by wizards to include it before they sketched up the idea of it being a multiverse entwined ith that of one of it's campaign settings. The plane being smaller and much more harmless seems to just be a small group of them that like to play tricks on travelers. Hope that helps clear the air.

[Yuki Akuma]

Limbo is Chaos. Fire might appear from nowhere, but it'll burn like real fire.

The Far Realm is Madness. Fire might appear from nowhere, and get you wet. Or make your skin tingle. Or take on the shape of your wife and shout at you.

[Fyermind]

From a simple mathematical standpoint the far realms is a 4space and limbo is a 3space.

You can literally see and feel yourself burrowing through time in the far realms. This is, I believe the basis of Monte, the character that defeats pun-pun.

As said above: don't go to the far realms. It breaks things that go there in ways you don't want to be broken. It mixes the youness of you up and spits it out with a little bit of itself and a little less of you when you leave. There is no reason other than plot that the result might be remotely playable.

[AuraTwilight]

In Limbo, butterflies come out of nothing and then vanish back into nothing.

In the Far Realms, butterflies come out of YOU.

In Limbo, you fight fire with fire.

In the Far Realms, you equip your DEX and apply your +2 holy Broadsword stat to your Move Silently check.

In Limbo, fire burns you.

In the Far Realms, fire burns your character sheet and turns you into a True Neutral Level 1 Commoner Human.

In Limbo, all four elements swirl around you.

In the Far Realms, the four elements of Leather, Fractal Mathematics, Orange, and Screw You.

In Limbo, Lawful characters take a penalty from the Chaos-dominant planar traits.

in Far Realms, Lawful characters turn into bears and Chaotic characters turn into salami sandwiches.

[Prime32]

Limbo is Chaos. Fire might appear from nowhere, but it'll burn like real fire.

The Far Realm is Madness. Fire might appear from nowhere, and get you wet. Or make your skin tingle. Or take on the shape of your wife and shout at you.And when you leave it will be before you arrived, and your house will have a different number of rooms (which everyone except you remembers as normal).

[CockroachTeaParty]

It's mentioned in Lords of Madness that certain monsters and entities originally came from the Far Realm. I imagine that getting stranded on a 'normal' material plane made such creatures 'stabilize' and start to obey the laws of nature as we know them, but they are still fundamentally alien.

LoM claims that cloakers and psurlons originally came from the Far Realm. I wonder what would happen if such a creature returned 'home?'

[Draz74]

The Far Realms is treated as one plane, you can look it up in Manual of the Planes. It's outside reality entirely, although I could see a remote chance of winding up in a different campaign setting. RPG system.

Fixed that for you. :smallwink:

"Oh, we briefly got stuck in the Far Realm, and ... now, suddenly, we're playing FATE instead of D&D. Weird."

(Or if you go deeper into the Far Realm, suddenly the DM pulls out a rubber ball and smacks you in the face with it. "Now we're playing Dodge Ball, and yes, this is still our D&D game. Somehow.")

[Xuldarinar]

Lets say, on the material plane you would roll a d20 to determine something.

Limbo is governed by many of the fundamental laws of the great wheels, but is chaotic within them. Fire burns, ice freezes, ect. Imagine creating a table you roll on once per round. You roll a d%, and there is a different result for each. Its random, but within parameters.

The Far Realm is governed by it's own laws, which are so alien to our own that our sanity is broken down by even attempting to comprehend it. To us they may be chaotic but within their own laws, they are as varied and normal as we are within ours. The Far Realm, create a dℵ out of nothing/everything. Follow the result of whatever object(s), idea(s), or creature(s) it turns into before it decides to consume you.

[Slipperychicken]

(Or if you go deeper into the Far Realm, suddenly the DM pulls out a rubber ball and smacks you in the face with it. "Now we're playing Dodge Ball, and yes, this is still our D&D game. Somehow.")

Success and failure are determined by your OOC performance at dodge ball. Catching the ball means you critically succeed, hitting someone means you succeed, missing means you fail, being hit means you critically fail. You could probably win an award or two by publishing that as an RPG system.

[drack]

Success and failure are determined by your OOC performance at dodge ball. Catching the ball means you critically succeed, hitting someone means you succeed, missing means you fail, being hit means you critically fail. You could probably win an award or two by publishing that as an RPG system.

Except that this is a lie and while it will affect your character mechanics you have no idea how. :smallwink:

[Larkas]

This is Limbo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dd/The_Persistence_of_Memory.jpg/300px-The_Persistence_of_Memory.jpg

And this is the Far Realm:

http://geekwhisperin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/404-error.png

[Erik Vale]

To jump on the bandwagon;

Limbo is a chaotic plane that is escentially grey solid/liquad and air, all of this can be manipulated by sheer force of will [Well, perception, but only because perception is will despite there being a will stat but that's off topic]. Every now and again, this grey matter creates it's own random force of will, and does strange things.
However, fire is fire, water is water, and you need air to breath.

The Far Realms make Weird Al's song with the lyrics 'Up is down and yes is now' or something like that seem completely mundane. The most stable and comprehendable areas [basically where it coexists for some reason along the 'real' world] are like a LSD trip [not from experience] and can instantly shatter your mind. However if you survive you can experience wierd sh*t.
The rest of it, which you might get by walking too long or using plane shift, is a DC 1billion will save to not X, where X is unknown and determined by the DM, and a natural 20 is not a succesful save by defualt. And its actually Z saves every Y intervals, where Y is veriable and can be measured in nanoseconds at some times.
Pun Pun may survive, for about 3 seconds, when he finally rolls a 1 which is a autofaliure, with a special rule which negates his all rolls are 20 and auto successes and should he be forced to roll 1's aren't a fail.
So he has a standard action, you don't.

[Sith_Happens]

And this is the Far Realm:

http://geekwhisperin.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/404-error.png

Whoa, back up a second. The Far Realms may be a place of madness and horror perpendicular to reality, but it's no IE6. You should apologize.

[intothenight]

One of the books describes the Far Planes as being "perpendicular" to the Great Wheel. Given how alien it is to mortal understanding, the effects it has on those who venture over there, and the kinds of things that have escaped it into the Material Plane, I tend to think of it as the kind of place where Lovecraftian horrors go when they want to blow off some steam. On the Material Plane, facing Cthulhu is a big deal. On the Far Planes, facing a dozen Cthulhu-like creatures, one of which is growing out of a mole on your left arm, is called "Tuesday." If you're lucky, you'll just get killed. Also, there's probably no luck in the Far Planes.

[Psyren]

Others have... er... given the fluff perspective on the two planes, so I'll touch on the crunch differences per MotP.

The biggest differences between the two are the Gravity, Time, Alignment and Element traits. What the two have in common are their highly morphic nature and the Wild Magic trait. However, unlike Limbo, travelers cannot exert control of any kind over the Far Realm's madness; indeed, they have to focus a lot of their mental state on making will saves while there just to keep their sanity.

Gravity: Limbo has gravity just like the Material, but it's subjective; each visitor can control what direction it pulls them in, and if they gain control over someone else's Area, they can mess with that person's gravitational pull as well. The Far Realm meanwhile has no gravity at all; travelers move by "swimming."

Time: Limbo has the normal time trait. Time in the Far Realm simply doesn't count, because it exists outside of time - thus, no matter how long you spend there, if you are lucky enough to return to the Material at all then no time will have passed.

Alignment: Limbo obviously is Chaos-dominant. The Far Realm has no alignment.

Element: All elements exist in both planes, however in a given area of Limbo, different elements achieve dominance for periods of time, whether randomly or at the whim of some controller who has stabilized an area briefly. The Far Realm meanwhile can have any combination of elements at any time without anyone being able to choose how they are combined or controlled.

[ericp65]

OK, you get the idea of celestia and hell being the planes of good and eavil, and eberon and fearun being in the game but different cosmologies? Far realms is like eberon where it's a separate multiverse (as stated above), Limbo is the plane that embodies pure chaos just as hell does evil. Being pure chaos it can be altered by thought alone , and has it's own oddities. :smallsmile:

You mean Faerun and Eberron aren't simply located on different planets in the same Prime Material Plane?

[drack]

You mean Faerun and Eberron aren't simply located on different planets in the same Prime Material Plane?

Correct, if you envision the planes as ink splotches on a circular piece of paper, then they are other circular pieces of paper in a cylindrical stack, with the plane of shadow filling in the spaces in between. :smallsmile:

[Chronos]

Quoth Draz74:

"Oh, we briefly got stuck in the Far Realm, and ... now, suddenly, we're playing FATE instead of D&D. Weird."
It could be worse. Instead of FATE, it could be FATAL.

[AuraTwilight]

Hey, hey. The Far Realms is unknowable, not EVIL.

[Slipperychicken]

Hey, hey. The Far Realms is unknowable, not EVIL.

Yeah, we've got planes for every flavor of evil out there. No need to repurpose the Far Realms to do their job :smalltongue:

[Xuldarinar]

Hey, hey. The Far Realms is unknowable, not EVIL.

People fear that which they do not understand.
People hate that which they fear.
That which is hated must be evil.

[Eldan]

You mean Faerun and Eberron aren't simply located on different planets in the same Prime Material Plane?

Depends. According to Planescape or Spelljammer, they are. According to their own books, they aren't.

[TuggyNE]

Depends. According to Planescape or Spelljammer, they are. According to their own books, they aren't.

Although the borders of crystal spheres, and in particular the quirks of Siberyspace, would make travel from one to another quite difficult anyway; (greater) teleport is ineffective, and even piloting a spelljammer through the cluttered space around Eberron might be difficult.

Or so I have heard.

[Eldan]

According to their own books, Dark Sun, Eberron, Faerun and a few other settings have their own planes. That's what I meant. And the books says that those are the only planes.

Planescape says that that is the opinion of backwater yokels who wouldn't know a real plane from their neighbour's mud hut and that there is only one set of planes.

[drack]

According to their own books, Dark Sun, Eberron, Faerun and a few other settings have their own planes. That's what I meant. And the books says that those are the only planes.

Planescape says that that is the opinion of backwater yokels who wouldn't know a real plane from their neighbour's mud hut and that there is only one set of planes.

Lolz, naturally. Essentially they're a minimal plane multiverse with the option for GMs to throw in planes whenever they want. :smallbiggrin:

[Yuki Akuma]

No matter what, though, it's possible to travel between campaign settings via the Far Realm or the (Demi)Plane of Shadow.

Guess which is the safer option.

[ericp65]

People fear that which they do not understand.
People hate that which they fear.
That which is hated must be evil.

Subjective. A person can fear nothing, yet hate what is truly evil. OTOH, a person can fear things without feeling hatred toward them.

[drack]

Eh, I think this is just about beaten to death by now...

[ericp65]

Correct, if you envision the planes as ink splotches on a circular piece of paper, then they are other circular pieces of paper in a cylindrical stack, with the plane of shadow filling in the spaces in between. :smallsmile:

So, separate cosmologies. OK. Someone else mentioned the Dark Sun setting. If I knew that Athas existed in yet another separate cosmology, I'd since forgotten. It would be interesting and helpful to see a list of all published Prime worlds, sorted by cosmology.

[Chronos]

Quoth Yuki Akuma:

No matter what, though, it's possible to travel between campaign settings via ... the (Demi)Plane of Shadow.
Any cites on this? The Shadow Walk spell says that it can be possible to reach other planes through the Plane of Shadow, but provides no details on which planes can be reached in this way. Is there more information in some other book?

[Eldan]

So, separate cosmologies. OK. Someone else mentioned the Dark Sun setting. If I knew that Athas existed in yet another separate cosmology, I'd since forgotten. It would be interesting and helpful to see a list of all published Prime worlds, sorted by cosmology.

Out of all the settings I know, namely, Faerun, Athas and Eberron, none officially follow the "standard" cosmology. Greyhawk may very well be the only one that still does. Faerun used to, but then they changed that.

[drack]

Any cites on this? The Shadow Walk spell says that it can be possible to reach other planes through the Plane of Shadow, but provides no details on which planes can be reached in this way. Is there more information in some other book?

Look in Manuel of the planes for more details on plane of shadow. It tends to be more useful for cosmology jumping though, plane hopping is easier with the astrial

[ericp65]

Depends. According to Planescape or Spelljammer, they are. According to their own books, they aren't.

Much as I love Planescape (except for the slang terms it uses), and much as I have the utmost contempt for Spelljammer (and thus have never used it), in my mind, the campaign setting books trump these resources.

[ericp65]

Look in Manuel of the planes for more details on plane of shadow. It tends to be more useful for cosmology jumping though, plane hopping is easier with the astrial

Manuel who? :smallamused:

My old way of thinking was that a character never has any possibility of moving from one cosmology to another, as I've viewed them as separate "universes." With that in mind, maybe my DMs and I have broken this rule when characters have traveled from Toril to Krynn, and vice versa. Fellow gamers and I always played under the concept that every Prime world exists on the same Prime Material Plane, but it's now clear to me that this is not so.

[Feytalist]

I guess it all depends if you can get to Sigil from your cosmology.

In Sigil, you can find a Portal to anywhere.

[strider24seven]

If anyone has played Dwarf Fortress, the Far Realms is like duplicating the raws:
Sentient trees that bleed spiders that survive by eating Wagon meat, and mine into the ground made of human silk using picks made of raw dragonfire, and chop down elephants with amethyst tusks with axes made of chickens, and build houses out of fish.

[ericp65]

I guess it all depends if you can get to Sigil from your cosmology.

In Sigil, you can find a Portal to anywhere.

Ah, yes, that's easily enough done, as more than one cosmology includes "Concordant Opposition," (The Outlands in Planescape) if memory serves.

[Trunamer]

Hey, hey. The Far Realms is unknowable, not EVIL.
lol, this is the DM equivalent of the chaotic stupid PC.

The disruptive player's mantra is "Sorry I TPKed the party. I'm not evil, just CN!"

The vengeful DM's mantra is "Sorry players, no smite evil or holy word for you. Cthulhu's not evil, he's just unknowable!"

[Psyren]

lol, this is the DM equivalent of the chaotic stupid PC.

The disruptive player's mantra is "Sorry I TPKed the party. I'm not evil, just CN!"

The vengeful DM's mantra is "Sorry players, no smite evil or holy word for you. Cthulhu's not evil, he's just unknowable!"

Well, it's not as though either of those would have saved your bacon anyway... :smalltongue:

[Eldan]

Manuel who? :smallamused:

http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/images/38346/swashbuckler.jpg

Hello. It is I, Manuel de los Planos. Saviour of virgins and bravest bravo in the planewalker's guild.

As for whether Planescape is correct or the setting books, that depends on the setting. If you play Dark Sun, you can't go to Sigil. If you play Planescape, you can have characters from Athas. A few show up, with names, in Sigil. And there's tons from Faerun.

[strider24seven]

Hello. It is I, Manuel de los Planos. Saviour of virgins and bravest bravo in the planewalker's guild.

You sir, are a ruffian, and a scoundrel.
And quite the bravo. Bravo, good sir.

[Xuldarinar]

lol, this is the DM equivalent of the chaotic stupid PC.

The disruptive player's mantra is "Sorry I TPKed the party. I'm not evil, just CN!"

The vengeful DM's mantra is "Sorry players, no smite evil or holy word for you. Cthulhu's not evil, he's just unknowable!"

I disagree with the premise. The plane itself is not evil, such as the material plane is not evil. That doesn't mean particular entities from the far-realm don't have tendencies towards an alignment. For instance, Father Llymic is a huge outsider of the chaotic subtype, and his alignment is Chaotic Evil. This doesn't mean the Far Realm is either alignment.

Though, funny you bring up the DM thing. Throw the elder evil, the Leviathan, at a group. It is technically Chaotic Neutral.

Edit: Also, Cthulhu's alignment is listed as CE.

[ericp65]

You sir, are a ruffian, and a scoundrel.
And quite the bravo. Bravo, good sir.

Love it! :smallbiggrin:

[Vedhin]

In Limbo, anything that can happen does happen.

In the Far Realm, anything that can't happen does happen. And so do the things that can happen. An the things that are both, and the things that are neither.
The Far Realm divides everything through by 0, and then by cucumber. It then divides by all the other letter of the rainbows, and afterwards discards the entire zebra beforehand anyway.

[Erik Vale]

Speaking of the Far Realms being sidways, perhaps it might be best to consider the far realms as the place where the squareroot of -1 is rational, but the squareroot of 1 is not.

[ericp65]

In Limbo, anything that can happen does happen.

In the Far Realm, anything that can't happen does happen. And so do the things that can happen. An the things that are both, and the things that are neither.
The Far Realm divides everything through by 0, and then by cucumber. It then divides by all the other letter of the rainbows, and afterwards discards the entire zebra beforehand anyway.

And the sound of a cloud tastes like a '57 Chevy smells underwater.

[strider24seven]

And the sound of a cloud tastes like a '57 Chevy smells underwater.

And this of course, is near a bridge by a fountain. Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies.

Actually, the Far Realms is fairly adequately described in several Beatles songs.

[ericp65]

And this of course, is near a bridge by a fountain. Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies.

Actually, the Far Realms is fairly adequately described in several Beatles songs.

Ooh, now you're speaking my language, as a musician and a lover of classic rock! :smallbiggrin: Maybe toss some lyrics from "I Am The Walrus" and "Glass Onion" on the pile, as well (Beatles were my first favorite band. After I discovered Led Zeppelin, Beatles took my #2 spot).

[strider24seven]

Ooh, now you're speaking my language, as a musician and a lover of classic rock! :smallbiggrin: Maybe toss some lyrics from "I Am The Walrus" and "Glass Onion" on the pile, as well (Beatles were my first favorite band. After I discovered Led Zeppelin, Beatles took my #2 spot).

"Welcome to the Far Realms. I am the Eggman, and you are the Eggman. I am also the Walrus, of the gumboot. As you can see, this is old flattop, the holy roller, grooving up slowly, with the juju eyeball and hair down to his knees. I am he, you are he, you are me, and we are all together. Right now. Over me. Enjoy your stay in the Far Realms."

[Xuldarinar]

And this of course, is near a bridge by a fountain. Where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies.

Actually, the Far Realms is fairly adequately described in several Beatles songs.

"Across the universe is a world without love, and because I'm here it's bad to be me. Misery, rain in the octopus's garden. In this yellow submarine, I'm bound by chains. Help! I should have known better. I just don't understand. Im down, I'm a loser, Im gonna sit right down and cry. In my life I'm only sleeping. I've got a feeling I've just seen a face. You won't see me through the looking glass. Im nowhere man. I am the walrus, and everybody's got something to hide except me and my monkey. Its getting better. I feel fine. Happiness is a warm gun and here comes the Sun. The end, it won't be long. Hello, Goodbye."

[Eldan]

Actually, a lot of that seems to fit very well into Limbo.

Limbo is were strange stuff happens apparently randomly.

The Far Realm is where things move in twelve dimensions of space and three dimensions of time and there's no causality.