Red Hand of Doom - You know what hurts?

[Maginomicon]

I have to vent for a moment, sorry.

We finished the "Red Hand of Doom" campaign last night, in which I was a player. We were all ECL ~10.

You know what hurts?

It hurts when you come up with a completely-WotC-legal 1st-level cleric NPC idea that the GM can control that would have a very good in-character reason and mechanical capability to one-shot the big-bad before the beginning of the "climactic battle of the campaign" that no one was ready for (everyone's spell slots / power points / etc. were all depleted by that point, and we weren't allowed to rest), and instead of simply vetoing the NPC idea or letting the NPC simply fail to accomplish that work-around, the GM instead has the NPC get brutally eviscerated right in front of me in a one-shot by the big bad even though I had the NPC wear my character's Brooch of Stability because I in-character was concerned for the NPC's safety.

It hurts when you then spend that climactic battle serving as a distraction... essentially-violating your character's Bravado-flaw-inspired personality... for 5 rounds only for the big bad to be taken out by a new player (it was the new player's first session in the campaign) whose character came into the game with essentially full-power. (I'm not blaming the new player, I'm just saying it hurt.)

It hurts when you get to the final dungeon the few sessions later and the GM allows something that's funny but just isn't -- ultimately -- fun... that ends the campaign outright. In this case, it hurt when the psychic character (not psychic warrior, psychic, as in from the Green Ronin 3rd-Party "Psychic Handbook") that's been entirely useless and ineffectual the whole campaign and whose player never wrote up an actual character sheet for their character rolls a natural 20 on his Psychic Telekinesis check, bringing his roll result on his Psychic Telekinesis skill check to over the DC for lifting 1,000,000 pounds, and so the GM allows that player to chuck the final dungeon (not the final encounter, the dungeon itself) that was built into the face of a mountain top into... the f***ing... SUN.

Sure... it was hilarious to visualize at the time... and I consented to it (along with everyone else in the group) because it was epic at the time, but when I stand back and look at that resolution a little later...

...I feel cheated. I feel hurt.

Yes the GM banned that Green Ronin book going forward (EDIT: I had to convince him to do that.), but immediately after the campaign ended, I had a realization.

That GM is a bad GM, and nothing's likely to change that.

That resolution should not have happened. It's inexcusable. The other events were semi-tolerable (although vicious and cruel), but ending the final dungeon (and thus the campaign) like that was the final straw for me.

Yes, I recognize that technically it wasn't rules-legal for the psychic to do that since being able to lift 1,000,000 pounds isn't enough to lift the dungeon itself. I'll let that slide, because a Nat20 on a Telekinesis check? Fine, have some cool effect.

However...

The GM should under no circumstances allow a player (much less a poor player) to one-shot a dungeon (much less the final dungeon), be it by going through the dungeon like a normal character or by standing outside of it and chucking the dungeon into the sun.

No.

It doesn't matter if it's "epic"... it doesn't even matter if it were somehow rules-legal... it should not happen, period.

So...

I've quit the campaigns that GM's running. In his "World's Largest Dungeon" campaign, I'm the character managing drawing the map for everyone... but honestly... I find it difficult to give a f*** about that responsibility now. If another GM were to help him run that game and actually keep him in line fairness-wise, I might consider continuing in that campaign, but... that's not likely. He's an arrogant prick of a GM. This is the same a**hole GM that insisted that an ogre of his got an AoO on me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15779991&postcount=13) from the ground when I moved through their space when my character was flying 100ft in the air above the ogre.

F*** it.

I'll let him be in my games as a player, but not the other way around.

...Because it hurt.

I didn't say "I'm not playing in your campaigns anymore" until after the game session had officially ended. I even had my "big campaign-finishing reward" from the king be for that NPC (the one that got brutally eviscerated by "the big bad" / "the GM") to be raised, which made every ounce of sense in-character.
(Apparently, the campaign book says I could have asked for a magic item of great power, and I could have and probably would have abused the opportunity had I known... or cared.)

I guess the take-away from this... rant (I guess) is... don't play under GMs that hurt you.

If I ever as a GM do that to a player, take me out back and shoot me.

P.S. Yeah yeah yeah, let's get this out of the way. This isn't "butt-hurt". We all (including me) laughed when the "chuck the dungeon into the sun" thing happened. That doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't have happened.

[Galvin]

Wow.

Doesn't sound like a very good DM.

Personally, I hate it when a new player comes in and dominates the game. My DM recently added sme new players without our permission and one of them is sorta bending our plot in a different track then I would like.

A dungeon made of stone and a mountain made of stone would weigh a lot more that one million pounds.

The best solution to one of these problems is to leave the group, as it seems you
are already doing.

[Big Fau]

I don't necessarily fault the DM for banning Green Ronin content after the fact (they aren't exactly good at balancing things, even worse than Paizo in some cases). The rest is a different story, but that specific part isn't something I'd call bad DMing.

[Maginomicon]

I don't necessarily fault the DM for banning Green Ronin content after the fact (they aren't exactly good at balancing things, even worse than Paizo in some cases). The rest is a different story, but that specific part isn't something I'd call bad DMing.I had to convince the GM to do that. It wasn't worth it.

[molten_dragon]

I have to vent for a moment, sorry.

We finished the "Red Hand of Doom" campaign last night, in which I was a player. We were all ECL ~10.

You know what hurts?

It hurts when you come up with a completely-WotC-legal 1st-level cleric NPC idea that the GM can control that would have a very good in-character reason and mechanical capability to one-shot the big-bad before the beginning of the "climactic battle of the campaign" that no one was ready for (everyone's spell slots / power points / etc. were all depleted by that point, and we weren't allowed to rest), and instead of simply vetoing the NPC idea or letting the NPC simply fail to accomplish that work-around, the GM instead has the NPC get brutally eviscerated right in front of me in a one-shot by the big bad even though I had the NPC wear my character's Brooch of Stability because I in-character was concerned for the NPC's safety.

It hurts when you then spend that climactic battle serving as a distraction... essentially-violating your character's Bravado-flaw-inspired personality... for 5 rounds only for the big bad to be taken out by a new player (it was the new player's first session in the campaign) whose character came into the game with essentially full-power. (I'm not blaming the new player, I'm just saying it hurt.)

It hurts when you get to the final dungeon the few sessions later and the GM allows something that's funny but just isn't -- ultimately -- fun... that ends the campaign outright. In this case, it hurt when the psychic character (not psychic warrior, psychic, as in from the Green Ronin 3rd-Party "Psychic Handbook") that's been entirely useless and ineffectual the whole campaign and whose player never wrote up an actual character sheet for their character rolls a natural 20 on his Psychic Telekinesis check, bringing his roll result on his Psychic Telekinesis skill check to over the DC for lifting 1,000,000 pounds, and so the GM allows that player to chuck the final dungeon (not the final encounter, the dungeon itself) that was built into the face of a mountain top into... the f***ing... SUN.

Sure... it was hilarious to visualize at the time... and I consented to it (along with everyone else in the group) because it was epic at the time, but when I stand back and look at that resolution a little later...

...I feel cheated. I feel hurt.

Yes the GM banned that Green Ronin book going forward (EDIT: I had to convince him to do that.), but immediately after the campaign ended, I had a realization.

That GM is a bad GM, and nothing's likely to change that.

That resolution should not have happened. It's inexcusable. The other events were semi-tolerable (although vicious and cruel), but ending the final dungeon (and thus the campaign) like that was the final straw for me.

Yes, I recognize that technically it wasn't rules-legal for the psychic to do that since being able to lift 1,000,000 pounds isn't enough to lift the dungeon itself. I'll let that slide, because a Nat20 on a Telekinesis check? Fine, have some cool effect.

However...

The GM should under no circumstances allow a player (much less a poor player) to one-shot a dungeon (much less the final dungeon), be it by going through the dungeon like a normal character or by standing outside of it and chucking the dungeon into the sun.

No.

It doesn't matter if it's "epic"... it doesn't even matter if it were somehow rules-legal... it should not happen, period.

So...

I've quit the campaigns that GM's running. In his "World's Largest Dungeon" campaign, I'm the character managing drawing the map for everyone... but honestly... I find it difficult to give a f*** about that responsibility now. If another GM were to help him run that game and actually keep him in line fairness-wise, I might consider continuing in that campaign, but... that's not likely. He's an arrogant prick of a GM. This is the same a**hole GM that insisted that an ogre of his got an AoO on me (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15779991&postcount=13) from the ground when I moved through their space when my character was flying 100ft in the air above the ogre.

F*** it.

I'll let him be in my games as a player, but not the other way around.

...Because it hurt.

I didn't say "I'm not playing in your campaigns anymore" until after the game session had officially ended. I even had my "big campaign-finishing reward" from the king be for that NPC (the one that got brutally eviscerated by "the big bad" / "the GM") to be raised, which made every ounce of sense in-character.
(Apparently, the campaign book says I could have asked for a magic item of great power, and I could have and probably would have abused the opportunity had I known... or cared.)

I guess the take-away from this... rant (I guess) is... don't play under GMs that hurt you.

If I ever as a GM do that to a player, take me out back and shoot me.

P.S. Yeah yeah yeah, let's get this out of the way. This isn't "butt-hurt". We all (including me) laughed when the "chuck the dungeon into the sun" thing happened. That doesn't change the fact that it shouldn't have happened.

That probably would have started a long technical argument between me and the DM about the density and tensile strength of granite.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think the first mistake was letting a new player enter the campaign with a fully powered character in the game's final session. Everything after that was just terrible, tho.



I have to admit, however, that I'm a bit curious how a 1st-level Cleric would ever be able to one-shot an aspect of Tiamat without some kind of ridiculous cheese. Care to share?

[Maginomicon]

I have to admit, however, that I'm a bit curious how a 1st-level Cleric would ever be able to one-shot an aspect of Tiamat without some kind of ridiculous cheese. Care to share?The big-bad of the campaign isn't really that fight with the Aspect of Tiamat in the fane. Apparently (at least according to the GM) the fane is more like an epilogue to the campaign. The really tough fight of the game is supposed to be the last fight in Brindol during the siege.

In that fight, you're all worn out from the other fights that happened during the seige, and then you go up against Wurmlord Kharn, who challenges the party to single combat (one at a time). The party, after being worn out like that, would usually be slaughtered if each were to fight him one at a time, hence why it's the big fight of the campaign. Wurmlord Kharn (at least, as the GM plays him) thinks himself so much of a badass that he'd let the first person to fight him take the first shot for free.

Painless Death is a Cleric 1 spell from the Ghostwalk book that can only affect willing targets. It kills the target instantly without a saving throw or allowing spell resistance. If Kharn is so sure of himself that he'd let the first person to challenge him take the first shot (and even more sure of himself if that person is ECL 1), that would definitely count as making him a "willing target". The spell was designed (I think) to make it painless to die and become a ghost. Thing is, why would you "have" to tell the target that the spell you're casting is Painless Death? Thus, it's viable as an assassination spell. Oh, you have a wand of Cure Light Wounds? Awesome, heal me. >:3

The NPC would have a wand of Painless Death because the NPC's day job is in Hospice. Normally, the NPC has the solemn duty of ending the lives of those dying of old age and want to "turn off life support". In the battle of Brindol, the Hospice workers were charged to use their Painless Death wands to bring a painless death to soldiers and townsfolk that have been injured beyond saving (this is all backstory I told the GM when I told him about my NPC idea, and he okayed it). A wand with 10 charges in it is an Item Level 1, so it would make sense for an ECL 1 cleric to have one on their person.

[Sith_Happens]

If [SPOILER REDACTED] is so sure of himself that he'd let the first person to challenge him take the first shot (and even more sure of himself if that person is ECL 1), that would definitely count as making him a "willing target".

Um, no. "I'll let you make the first move" is not the same thing as "I'll just stand here and let myself get stabbed." Otherwise you don't even need magical trickery, you could just coup-de-grace him.

[Maginomicon]

Um, no. "I'll let you make the first move" is not the same thing as "I'll just stand here and let myself get stabbed." Otherwise you don't even need magical trickery, you could just coup-de-grace him.
The GM explicitly said it would. What I asked him was "Would that mean I can cast a spell on him that only allows willing targets?"

[Sith_Happens]

The GM explicitly said it would. What I asked him was "Would that mean I can cast a spell on him that only allows willing targets?"

Well that's just the cherry on top of all the fail that you've already described.

[Maginomicon]

Well that's just the cherry on top of all the fail that you've already described.
In fairness, there's probably very very few spells (if there are even any more than that spell) that are willing-targets-only that can be used offensively. Thus, there's very little reason to suspect a trick. (And he wouldn't be the kind of GM to notice that it was willing-targets-only if I hadn't pointed it out.)

[ArcturusV]

Heh. Actually the fact that there are so few, means if someone asked about Willing Target spells that should immediately have your DM hackles up. But yeah, he should have just decided that a free shot meant the guy just uses a Delay until after you attack. Not considered flatfooted, willing, etc. So you can't Iajutsu him, or Sneak Attack him, etc.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

While I agree that your D is bad, what you wanted done in the duel would be as bad as the "TK the dungeon into the sun" obviously in addition to poor story telling/game management; your DM has poor system mastery. When he said "willing target" he meant "will auto fail a saving throw, assuming it's against a reflex save for half damage spell".

The only way for the sidekick cleric winning being appropriate is if he's the last man standing, does a hero speech and get's divine intervention.


In fairness, there's probably very very few spells (if there are even any more than that spell) that are willing-targets-only that can be used offensively. Thus, there's very little reason to suspect a trick. (And he wouldn't be the kind of GM to notice that it was willing-targets-only if I hadn't pointed it out.)

Ya, this sounds like you were trying to trick your DM out of game with superior system master, poor form.

[Maginomicon]

While I agree that your D is bad, what you wanted done in the duel would be as bad as the "TK the dungeon into the sun" obviously in addition to poor story telling/game management; your DM has poor system mastery. When he said "willing target" he meant "will auto fail a saving throw, assuming it's against a reflex save for half damage spell".

The only way for the sidekick cleric winning being appropriate is if he's the last man standing, does a hero speech and get's divine intervention.

Ya, this sounds like you were trying to trick your DM out of game with superior system master, poor form.
The only reason I brought it up to the GM was as a way out in-game for us to move on with the plot. None of us would get the XP because an NPC would be one-shotting the big-bad.

[Deophaun]

The GM should under no circumstances allow a player (much less a poor player) to one-shot a dungeon (much less the final dungeon), be it by going through the dungeon like a normal character or by standing outside of it and chucking the dungeon into the sun.
That happens all the time. It's called teleport.

But he probably felt bad that the psychic character had been worthless throughout the campaign, and decided to give him his backpay on awesomeness. With interest.

[Sith_Happens]

That happens all the time. It's called teleport.

Since when does Teleport let you throw a mountain into the sun?:smallconfused:

[Deophaun]

Since when does Teleport let you throw a mountain into the sun?:smallconfused:
One shot a dungeon (read: bypass), not throw a dungeon into the sun.

[Eldan]

Well, it was a cool scene. The psychic was apparently useless for most of the campaign, so I'd probably let him do something cool there.

Like, I don't know. Shake the entire dungeon like an earthquake, make some walls collapse so that progress is easier and maybe rip the front wall off the dungeon.

Cool, cinematic, not an autowin.

[Eldariel]

In fairness, there's probably very very few spells (if there are even any more than that spell) that are willing-targets-only that can be used offensively. Thus, there's very little reason to suspect a trick. (And he wouldn't be the kind of GM to notice that it was willing-targets-only if I hadn't pointed it out.)

Being a Willing Target means you forfeit any saving throw on an offensive spell tho. So Kharn would die to any save-or-die too. Also, Kharn has Spellcraft so he could know what you're casting... But usually, "take the first shot" means "I won't attack you" rather than "I won't resist".

[Nerd-o-rama]

Your GM is a real winner (do I need blue text here?) And I include his stated definition of "free shot" from Kharn in that, although it does give me a hilarious flashback to Dogma.

"But...I'm a ****ing demon..."

He seems to have neither a good grasp of the rules, of storytelling, or of this story in particular, especially if he thinks of foiling the big bad's actual main goal - for which the whole war sequence was more or less just a setup and distraction - is an epilogue worthy of being dismissed as a joke.

[Deox]

My question is: Did the other players involved have fun?

Regardless of the answer, I agree that it is frustrating to see things well planned/thought out go down the crapper on, essentially, a DM fiat. Rule 0, IMO, is to ensure all involved are enjoying the game and participating.

[Crasical]

I'm actually one of the other players in this game (One of the original three adventurers, in fact, though I lost my character the first session so the character I ended up playing most of the campaign was a 'newcomer' plotwise. I digress), and the one who 'suggested' the throw-the-dungeon-into-the-sun idea. In my defense, I didn't think anyone would agree with me. I blurted it out after hearing the ludicrous amount of weight that the check would allow him to move, because in my mind this was like an easter egg in an old-school JRPG: Take this useless, dead-weight party member and drag them through the whole adventure (Keeping them alive, too!) and get a special ending where they suddenly become a lethal joke character. I even backpedaled and suggested the DM rule that the iron doors he was trying to remove merely went supersonic and exploded the hell out of the blue dragon we where fighting, ending the fight and allowing us access past a trap into the dungeon proper, but the general consensus was that everyone was okay with allowing the dungeon toss to happen.