Gates of Glass

[Demolator]

Now, I don't know the gate-making process, and I could probably find out if I got the prequels or something, but I just realized that these gates seem pretty fragile. Four of them are gone. Miko sliced one up with her sword. Roy bashed one in with his sword. Elan made the dungeon self-destruct (which I guess is pretty powerful and could probably blow up a gate), and as far as I know, a treant or something destroyed Lirian's (feel free to correct me on that one guys). So if these Scribblers are some super powerful adventurers, why couldn't they make the gates from some stronger substance or something? I guess they figured nobody would ever get to the gates (and had it not been for Team Evil, they'd have probably been right), but that's no excuse for making them so breakable if it was so important for those rifts to remain sealed. Any thoughts? :smalltongue:

[JavaScribe]

1. The story reason, is of course, that if they had, the gates would have been harder to destroy. It could still be made to happen, but that would just be a distraction.

2. The Scribble members were overly obsessed and confident in their own ideologies, thus preventing the concept of such from even entering their narrow world views. For example, Lirian believed in the strength of nature. Her defenses, though powerful, were extremely vulnerable to unnatural things, like a lich, and even natural weaknesses, like fire. Girard believed in the power of deception and family. Even at full strength, Girard's defenses would never have stood a chance against Xykon, who would be immune to phantasms, could have gotten around the rest of them with True Seeing, and been strong enough to obliterate his clan. The very idea that there could be gopher sized holes in their ideologies and defenses is unthinkable.

3. The Scribble only has so many resources. Other things may have been bigger priorities.

[phobiandarkmoon]

Dorukan's Gate had a self-destruct built in, so no problem there. It also survived months of experimenting sending goblins into the rift and stray blasts during the battle.

Soon's Gate was around a tiny rift, so enough force is going to break it even if it's made out of some pretty darn sturdy materials.

Lirian's Gate was made using the stuff of nature itself, which isn't immune to wildfire. Yeah, this one was pretty fragile if you could get to it, but in Lirian's defense it was protected by layers of forest creatures including the virus and mid to high level druids.

As for Girard's Gate, again he relied on external means (illusions and deception) more than the construction of the gate itself. Also it's not like Roy's +5 Starmetal Greatsword is a normal attack swung by a high-level fighter, and it took several hits.

Thematically, the gate all fail because the Order of the Scribble member who made them relied too much on their own specialty and distrusted the approaches of their other team-members - Soon on the honour of Paladins, Dorukan on raw magical power, Girard on his own people, illusion and deceptions, Lirian on the power of nature. We can extrapolate the Serini's memorial to Kraagor is going to be all about large monsters without much in the way of the other approaches.

[Muenster Man]

I imagine most of the efforts by Lirian and Dorukan to create these gates were put into trying to contain the energy of the rifts, and less to survive a very unusually strong blow. If someone recognized the power of the gates then they were likely of a high level themselves and could come up with some means of destroying it if they really wanted to, regardless of how tough the gates were. The point was to save the world from the rift, not save the world from itself (I think).

Also, it took at least two good blows from Roy and his starmetal greatsword to take out the most recent one. And the gate Miko destroyed was tiny.

[Tock Zipporah]

Well, Roy's sword is starmetal, and his first swing didn't dent it. He then used power attack to crack it. A fighter of Roy's level depending on his exact strength could do (avg 7 from die rolls +5 enhancement +10 for 1 1/2 times str (if his base str bonus is +7) +4 if he has weapon specialization greater +30 for max power attack if he's level 15) = 56 damage just to put a tiny crack on it.

(the class and level Geekery thread might peg his stats lower, but this is a reasonable upper bound)

If we assume the destabilization of the other gates weakened this one, then if it was at full strength the tiny crack might not have destroyed it so easily. Therefore, if it takes 50+ damage to make a tiny crack, then destroying a not-destabilized gate would be VERY hard. Doubly so if we consider the possible hardness of the gate material (which Roy's starmetal sword bypasses). Someone without a starmetal sword would have a hard time doing 50+ damage per swing and it might take many many hits to bypass it, and short of maximized magic spells, few other effects can do 50+ damage if you're a less than level 15 character.

Dorukan's gate was destroyed by an epic magic rune, so who knows how strong that was.

The treants that destroyed Lirian's gate were probably epic Elder Treants

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/treantElder.htm

If so, it was destroyed by CR 25 creatures.

And Soon's gate was the smallest, and therefore had the fewest hit points, which is why Miko was able to destroy it (she too probably used a max power attack).

[NerdyKris]

Lirian's gate was held together by Treants. They were the gate. They ran from a fire, causing it to break apart.

As for those destroyed by a sword, in both cases those were very strong swords wielded by powerful people. Both appeared to be made of crystals, which one can easily find that can be shattered by metal.

No real information is given as to how the gates were sealed besides that the spell required an arcane and a divine caster. They also probably wanted to ensure that the gates could be destroyed easily if needed. The biggest risk is the gate falling into the wrong hands. The rift itself is useless without the gate, from what Redcloak has said.

[Belril Duskwalk]

Containing holes in the fabric of reality isn't like putting a cockroach in a steel box. It's more like putting a rabid Dire Weasel in a box made of wet cardboard. The Rift WANTS to be open.

At least that's my theory. The way I figure it, if the Snarl is(was?) as dangerous as it is claimed to be, sealing it in probably requires some kind of anti-reality-ending matter to keep it in. Just because it's proof against holes in reality doesn't mean it has a good Hardness.

[Morty]

My guess is that they simply could not. Why are real-world buildings not made of indestructible materials? Because it is not technologically feasible and would cost a fortune if it was. We know that Lirian and Dorukan dumped their entire fortunes - which were most likely considerable given their long adventuring careers - into the Gates. So even if there was a way for them to make the Gates less vulnerable, they might not have been able to afford it.

Sometimes, it's really that simple.

[Xelbiuj]

If they theorized that the gates could be manipulated in some way, why not leave them vulnerable to mundane attacks. If someone has control of the gate, using a slightly stronger material isn't going to make much of a difference in stopping them.

[Roland Itiative]

Dorukan's Gate had a self-destruct built in, so no problem there. It also survived months of experimenting sending goblins into the rift and stray blasts during the battle.

Soon's Gate was around a tiny rift, so enough force is going to break it even if it's made out of some pretty darn sturdy materials.

Lirian's Gate was made using the stuff of nature itself, which isn't immune to wildfire. Yeah, this one was pretty fragile if you could get to it, but in Lirian's defense it was protected by layers of forest creatures including the virus and mid to high level druids.

As for Girard's Gate, again he relied on external means (illusions and deception) more than the construction of the gate itself. Also it's not like Roy's +5 Starmetal Greatsword is a normal attack swung by a high-level fighter, and it took several hits.

Thematically, the gate all fail because the Order of the Scribble member who made them relied too much on their own specialty and distrusted the approaches of their other team-members - Soon on the honour of Paladins, Dorukan on raw magical power, Girard on his own people, illusion and deceptions, Lirian on the power of nature. We can extrapolate the Serini's memorial to Kraagor is going to be all about large monsters without much in the way of the other approaches.

You are confusing the Gate defences with the Gates themselves. The Gates were all made by the divine-arcane ritual performed by Lirian and Dorukan, and presumably all have the same specs (aside from size differences depending on the size of the Rift they're sealing). The Gate defences were the extra measures that each member of the Order of the Scribble took to defend the Gates that were already in place, and vary according to their ideologies and skills.

But yeah, they probably didn't have the means to make the Gates any sturdier. We have to keep in mind, though, that Roy's power is completely out of what we would call "human" in the real world. The dude could effortlessly break the pillar surrounding Girard's Gate, after all. That means the Gates might be sturdier than your regular wall, which is already enough to keep anyone from unwillingly breaking one in most occasions.

[Tock Zipporah]

You are confusing the Gate defences with the Gates themselves. The Gates were all made by the divine-arcane ritual performed by Lirian and Dorukan, and presumably all have the same specs (aside from size differences depending on the size of the Rift they're sealing). The Gate defences were the extra measures that each member of the Order of the Scribble took to defend the Gates that were already in place, and vary according to their ideologies and skills.

But yeah, they probably didn't have the means to make the Gates any sturdier. We have to keep in mind, though, that Roy's power is completely out of what we would call "human" in the real world. The dude could effortlessly break the pillar surrounding Girard's Gate, after all. That means the Gates might be sturdier than your regular wall, which is already enough to keep anyone from unwillingly breaking one in most occasions.

You make a very good point about Roy's power level. To put that in perspective, a fighter like Roy could chop down a tree that is as thick as a man's body with three mighty swings of his sword. It would take 6 seconds. A normal human would need an hour or more to do the same thing.

[factotum]

Something that is powerful magically is not necessarily powerful physically--indeed, in cases where you don't believe the object itself is risking any sort of physical damage (which would be the case in all these gates, because the members of the Scribble believed implicitly in their ability to keep people away from them!) you probably wouldn't waste time making sure they were physically strong.

[Douglas]

Thematically, the gate all fail because the Order of the Scribble member who made them relied too much on their own specialty and distrusted the approaches of their other team-members - Soon on the honour of Paladins, Dorukan on raw magical power, Girard on his own people, illusion and deceptions, Lirian on the power of nature. We can extrapolate the Serini's memorial to Kraagor is going to be all about large monsters without much in the way of the other approaches.
Imagine if they had cooperated in the defenses, such that each gate had all 5 defenses combined. Illusions + Guardian Virus + Ghost-Martyrs + Epic Spells + Giant Monsters, and if anyone seems about to get through after all the entire Order of the Scribble shows up, all together. Dear god, that would be an utter nightmare for any villain to get through.

[Ridureyu]

But once they figured out a single gate, all of 'em would be child's play.

[Douglas]

Any villain who could get through them all at once would also be able to get through them one at a time, so that's not really a drawback.

[Raimun]

I think the defense of the gates also required that they can be destroyed at a moment's notice. Dorukan build a self-destruct on his gate for that very purpose.

Like we know, it's better to destroy a gate than let it fall on the hands of the villains, since even one gate can be used for the ritual. I guess Dorukan and Lirian thought so too.

At that point, when all the defenses have been breached, there's not much else to do. Villains don't want to destroy a gate in any case but the heroes just might want to.

Edit: It works too. Xykon and Redcloak were pissed every time someone blew up a gate.

[littlebum2002]

I think the defense of the gates also required that they can be destroyed at a moment's notice. Dorukan build a self-destruct on his gate for that very purpose.

Like we know, it's better to destroy a gate than let it fall on the hands of the villains, since even one gate can be used for the ritual. I guess Dorukan and Lirian thought so too.

At that point, when all the defenses have been breached, there's not much else to do. Villains don't want to destroy a gate in any case but the heroes just might want to.

Edit: It works too. Xykon and Redcloak were pissed every time someone blew up a gate.

This. Why would they make it difficult to destroy a gate when it is pretty much understood that sometimes it is necessary for the heroes to do just that? After all, a bad guy would have no reason to destroy a gate unless he got REALLY bored.

[LordSplendid]

Also, we have from 276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) (last panel) that corners were cut on Dorukan's Gate.

[littlebum2002]

Sorry, but ever since I saw the title of this thread I haven't been able to get the song out of my head...


I once had a rift, and it was a gas,
soon turned out to have a gate of glass...

[Solse]

You make a very good point about Roy's power level.

You could say that his power level ... IS OVER 9000!!!
Now that I got that out of the way, I'd like to point out that I agree. The D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook points out that 11 or 12 is an average ability score for a normal human. So just imagine what Roy, with a 24 or so for Strength, could do.

[GSFB]

Maybe everything the OotS was told about the gates and Order of the Scribble was... wrong.