Making TWF less of a suck [3.P]

[Feint's End]

Hey Forum. What do you think of those changes to make TWF a bit less of a pain:

-the feat Two Weapon Fighting improves automatically when you gain enough Bab for another attack (also upgrades to Superior Two Weapon Fighting pre epic)
-When it comes to enchanting you just have to pay for the enchantment cost once for both weapons (like enchanting one weapon) as long as both weapons are enchanted the same way. Only enchantments which are not the same cost extra (meaning the flexibility advantage of two different weapons costs extra).

I'll implement those changes pretty soon into my homebrew rules but I'd also like to play a TWF Fighter in an upcoming game and use those rules to make the whole build (it's a pure flavour build anyways) a bit less of a pain to play. I'm probably gonna show my DM this Thread to convince him of these changes.

[Greenish]

We do have a forum for Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15).


Getting TWF feat to auto-scale is, as far as I can tell, quite a common idea. I'd consider it bare minimum.

The enhancement thing doesn't sound too bad, but how would it work in practice? Do you need to have a pair of weapons made at the same time? Do you have to use both to gain the benefit?

[Feint's End]

We do have a forum for Homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15).


Getting TWF feat to auto-scale is, as far as I can tell, quite a common idea. I'd consider it bare minimum.

The enhancement thing doesn't sound too bad, but how would it work in practice? Do you need to have a pair of weapons made at the same time? Do you have to use both to gain the benefit?

Yes I thought for a long time if I'd put it in here or in homebrew but decided for this forum because I think of it more as a general discussion on how to increase TWF to a more useable level. Hope that's still fine in this forum and also I'm sorry if I confused anyone in the OP ... this is definitely a discussion thread.

Yeah autoscaling TWF is pretty standard.

About the enhancement I'm not quite sure yet. I guess the best way would be to only make it possible at creation (basically the synergy bonus between the weapons). Also would fit from the consistent world part I'd say.
The second possibility would be to simply half the price of all one handed weapon ... though that might be to easy to "abuse" or not use it RAI. Like buying a glove of warning to get the enchantment cheaper (with the two weapons and the first variant it wouldn't be worth it since both enchantment have to be exactly the same and you wouldn't pay any money less that way).

[Greenish]

About the enhancement I'm not quite sure yet. I guess the best way would be to only make it possible at creation (basically the synergy bonus between the weapons). Also would fit from the consistent world part I'd say.You might also want to make the enhancement only work when the weapons are paired, lest your players decide to sell them separately.


The second possibility would be to simply half the price of all one handed weapon ... though that might be to easy to "abuse" or not use it RAI.It would also mean most people who would otherwise use two-handers would just go for using one-handers two-handed (unless they really wanted reach).

[Feint's End]

You might also want to make the enhancement only work when the weapons are paired, lest your players decide to sell them separately.

Good point ... gonna note that.

Yeah I figured the second way is pretty sucky in it's own way why are you looking at me. no that's not a two handed sword ... that's the longsword of a large creature

[Gavinfoxx]

I'd merge most of these feats into something under three feats:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Dual Strike
Improved Two Weapon Defense
Greater Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Attack of Opportunity
Two Weapon Pounce
Two Weapon Rend

And that's just a list without any PF content...

[Greenish]

I'd merge most of these feats into something under three feats:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Dual Strike
Improved Two Weapon Defense
Greater Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Attack of Opportunity
Two Weapon Pounce
Two Weapon Rend

And that's just a list without any PF content...Mmn. Under that scheme, I'd roll the basic TWF chain (TWF, ITWF, GTWF) into one feat, the "use two weapons where normally just one" (Double Hit, Two-Weapon Pounce, Dual Strike) into one feat, and then figure out something more interesting than the current feats to fit under Two-Weapon Defense.

One of my ideas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210769) basically rolled most of those into a single feat. I might not go quite so far now, even if it had certain simplicity.

[Eldariel]

First, I feel you need to fix melee full attack/charge as that mechanic screws TWF over. Unlike two-handers or sword&board, a TWFer needs full attacks starting from level 1. However, that's not the whole problem; the whole problem is obviously that melee characters need full attacks to do jack **** in the first place.

"You may take a single full move action or a 5' step as a part of full melee attack action" works pretty well. I'd restrict it to melee though unless you want melee types never catching archers ever (considering that archery is already largely better than melee in PF, I recommend against this btw).


Second, yeah, the additional attacks need to be unlocked for free. It's retarded that you have to actually spend additional feats with steeper prerequisites for lesser gains.

Giving shield-bonus for TWFing might also work provided you give shield-users something too (I like to take a page outta the Phalanx Fighter and allow them to also protect adjacent allies & get bonus vs. touch attacks, CMB and to saves too). That would, at least, make it a bit more different from THF.

Oh, and I think you should get to hit with both weapons on an AoO.

[Snowbluff]

In addition to scaling TWF feat, a Weapon Crystal should be made for TWFers.

"Crystals of Ettins
900 GP, 2700 GP, 9000 GP.

This crystal is used to pair weapons together for two-weapon fighting. Once the command word is spoken and the crystal is attached to a weapon, another crystal forms in the possession of the owner/wielder. This second crystal, once attached to another, copies enhancements up to a value determined by the level of crystal. The second weapon does not have the abilities while not being held by the wielder.

Least: Transfers up to +3 value in enhancements.
Lesser: Transfers up to +6.
Whatever: Transfers up to +10."

This would lessen the cost without making it free. Which is pretty much where I think it should be.

[ArcturusV]

On the Enchantment thing. I've done a custom Enchantment I allowed in my games called Pairing. You enchant a weapon (The other to be paired with it must be present) as a +2 enchantment. As long as the Paired weapons are held by the same person, they count as having all the same enchantments.

It's not quite as good as your suggestion. But it worked out just fine for the groups that had used it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah, I forgot Double Hit from that list!

[Greenish]

I'd merge most of these feats into something under three feats:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Dual Strike
Improved Two Weapon Defense
Greater Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Attack of Opportunity
Two Weapon Pounce
Two Weapon RendMmn. Under that scheme, I'd roll the basic TWF chain (TWF, ITWF, GTWF) into one feat, the "use two weapons where normally just one" (Double Hit, Two-Weapon Pounce, Dual Strike) into one feat, and then figure out something more interesting than the current feats to fit under Two-Weapon Defense.Actually, there is a system much like that (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199946), and it looks quite decent.

Changes the other weapon styles too, though, so might be a hard sell to your DM.

[Psyren]

Since you're playing 3.P, why not a PF Soulknife instead of a fighter? They're probably the best TWFers in the system. (I'm judging by your avatar that you don't have any aversion to psionics.)

[Krobar]

What we first did for TWF, was this:

1) Ambidexterity removes all penalties for fighting with two weapons (otherwise the penalty is -2 to hit on all attacks, like Flurry of Blows).
2) we rolled the two-weapon defense feats into the appropriate two-weapon fighting feats. So Two Weapon Fighting incorporates Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting incorporates Improved Two-Weapon Defense, etc.


It's still three feats (4 if you go into epic for Perfect Two Weapon Fighting), and not ideal, but it's far better than before. Later, we had it scale with just two feats: two weapon fighting and two weapon defense.

[Snowbluff]

Since you're playing 3.P, why not a PF Soulknife instead of a fighter? They're probably the best TWFers in the system. (I'm judging by your avatar that you don't have any aversion to psionics.)

Does having Wild Talent qualify as being psionic? :smallconfused:

Not that it matters. Anything that can smite, equips lances, and has a horse is better at TWF. Via la Mounted Skirmisher/Wild Plains Outrider/Pounce!

[Psyren]

Does having Wild Talent qualify as being psionic? :smallconfused:

They are a psionic class by RAW in both editions, even if it's a lot harder to tell in 3.5 :smalltongue:

PF added a bit more "psi" flavor to spice things up, like Absorbing Blade.

[Snowbluff]

They are a psionic class by RAW in both editions, even if it's a lot harder to tell in 3.5 :smalltongue:

PF added a bit more "psi" flavor to spice things up, like Absorbing Blade.
The only real consequence of that seems to be that they can't qualify for Phrenic. Despite my criticisms, I don't ban psionics in my games. However, banning soulknife for having one feat is on the absurd side.

That makes sense.

[Psyren]

Who's banning Soulknife? You lost me there.

[Snowbluff]

(I'm judging by your avatar that you don't have any aversion to psionics.)

This makes it sound like the reason why he would not be using soulknife is that it is psionic. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Oh, I see. I agree, even games that ban psionics have no reason to ban soulknife, but DMs usually ban by the book.

[cerin616]

Oh hey, Psyren has a new avatar.

Honestly, I dont even see why TWF feats exist half the time.

IMO:
- TWF should be one feat that progresses with level in t he sense that anytime you would normally get an attack with your primary weapon, you also get an attack with your offhand weapon. This covers AoO's, iterative attacks, etc.

We can still have rend feats and such, but this narrows down how stupid feat dependent TWF is.

[Fax Celestis]

They are a psionic class by RAW in both editions, even if it's a lot harder to tell in 3.5 :smalltongue:

PF added a bit more "psi" flavor to spice things up, like Absorbing Blade.

...and the delishus, delishus Gifted archetype.

Aside from that, most of my games I make TWF autoscale into ITWF/GTWF/STWF at the appropriate BAB-cutoffs, and also give TWF the ability to attack once with both hands as a standard action. You could probably just give TWF the ability to attack with both hands as an attack action and be okay: things like trip, disarm, and other specialty combat maneuvers already use a similar as-attack-action system and are by and large okay.