Playing the Undead?

[Draconisister]

I have been reading trough the libris mortis and think I would like to play an undead character. I am how ever unsure how best to pull it off.

Currently I am playing a level 4-5 campaign and my current binder is going to meet her untimely end shortly. from what I can tell there are 2 ways I can do this. either start from level 1 as one of the undead monster classes or take a few levels in something then as part of my story have them turned in to some kind of undead. It says that I need to pick a starting race when entering the monster class but nothing about keeping or losing any of the racial abilities. Does the new undead keep all of the racial abilities of its former race? Any suggestions about class combinations not necessarily for power but would be fun to play?(our party has no clericy type class and they are kinda reckless)

on an other note my DM has warned me that if I do this he will increase the number of clerics the party will encounter by a lot what are some ways to survive as undead either against the powers of good/evil clerics or other issues caused by being undead such as the vampire weaknesses?

[Greenish]

on an other note my DM has warned me that if I do this he will increase the number of clerics the party will encounter by a lot:smallannoyed:

This seems to suggest that your DM a) doesn't want you to play undead and b) has decided to be an arse about it.

[PlusSixPelican]

This isn't the campaign for it, as they'll just punish you for coloring outside the lines.

Try playing a Dread Necro, you'll become undead over time.

[Silva Stormrage]

You don't really want to take any of the monster classes, they are somewhat terrible. If you want to play an undead character you might be better off playing a Necropolitain (See Libris Mortis), that allows you to play undead with no LA. (You do lose a level but you gain it back quickly since you gain more xp than the others). Then for a class I would suggest dread necromancer from heroes of horror. You gain a touch attack that lets you heal yourself at will and if your allies take the tomb tainted soul feat you can heal them as well.

Another option would be to take a one level dip in Dread Necromancer (For the free healing touch), 2 levels in cleric and then take the Master of Shrouds PRC (Libris Mortis). This combo lets you get the PRC abilities much earlier than normal. Your cleric casting would be 2 behind normal but you get other class abilities too.

Also its pretty easy to make it so that you don't worry too much about turning. Bolstering yourself basically makes you immune to turn undead, get necromantic presence or have a DN animate you with the feat that boosts turn resistance, or get the item that gives +4 turn resistance. Necropolitian gives +2 TR so that means with all of them at level 5 you have, 5 (HD) + 2 (Necropolitian) + 4 (Corpse Crafter Feat), +4 (Cloak) +4 (Necromantic Presence) = 19 effective HD for turning. Which means that if anyone wants to turn you they need to be 19th level. Which lets be honest they will kill you anyway.

[Urpriest]

If all you want is to be an undead, the best way is with the Necropolitan template, from the same book.

If you would rather take one of the Monster Classes, be aware that you will in general be weaker than a character of comparable level. However, you do keep all traits of your original race except for those explicitly removed, making you a bit more powerful than if you had played a Ghoul or the like without the Monster Class.

Edit: There are ways to increase turn resistance if you need to. I'm not an expert on it, so I'll wait for others to post on that subject.

[PlusSixPelican]

You'll also want to tell any clerics your party has, so they don't accidentally kill you, and prep a couple Inflicts for you.

[Draconisister]

ok I totally missed the necropolitan, to make it i would basicly end up as a 3rd level character right? the dread necromancer seems to be the best choice.... how did miss that class when i was looking for possible classes? If i go all the way trough the class would I still turn in to a lich? or is sticking trough the dread necro all the way to lvl 20 stupid in the first place?

[Silva Stormrage]

ok I totally missed the necropolitan, to make it i would basicly end up as a 3rd level character right? the dread necromancer seems to be the best choice.... how did miss that class when i was looking for possible classes? If i go all the way trough the class would I still turn in to a lich? or is sticking trough the dread necro all the way to lvl 20 stupid in the first place?

It varies on what you want to do, if you want to it is a completely valid build choice. I do believe you would need to be true ressurected before becoming a lich though (Since undead can't become liches). Though at that level it would be pretty easy to do that.

Read some of the guides on dread necromancers
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872726/Revised_Necromancer_Handbook

I will note something for DN's though. Their 8th level ability undead mastery bases your control limit on your DN class level. So if you follow some of the advice on these guides which suggests to leave the class at 8th you will be harming the amount of undead you can control. However, that was PROBABLY a typo on wotc part so see if you can get your DM to agree that the ability should be based off of CL instead of class level.

[OldTrees1]

The 1-3 levels of Ghost template class is also a good choice.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a
Note: "Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class."
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a

[Draconisister]

I am really liking the whole undead with an army of undead idea. how ever i have always been rather bad at the whole build thing and tend to nerf myself from cool features out of fear of DM wrath. I have had a few DMs that would punish me for out of the norm creative builds. I also do not like the aspect of min maxing but I fear in order to stay a live I will need to resort to it :(.

I have no idea where to start with the whole army of undead build the dread necro seems to be one of the better classes for it how ever they cant start creating undead till level 8. Is there any way to get my army started sooner than that? and from what I understand the corpse crafter feats do not work on undead from the summon undead spells right? I have also been toying with the idea of making use of undead leadership as well for an even bigger army make use of corpsecrafter to create powerful low level undead release them so they don't count against what i can control but attract them as followers/my cohort. .... would that even work?

[ArcturusV]

Well, if you want the Undead Horde, and just worried about the level. If you don't take the class, but take the LA for the race, you could end up playing something like a Wight a few levels earlier and kill people to turn them into Wights you control.

But generally if you want the Undead Mob at your beck and call, picking up Cleric is really your best option. Wizards are kinda... eh... as Necromancer Minion Masters. And from what I've seen Dread Necromancers aren't really any better than Clerics are, despite the focus.

[Zanos]

Well, if you want the Undead Horde, and just worried about the level. If you don't take the class, but take the LA for the race, you could end up playing something like a Wight a few levels earlier and kill people to turn them into Wights you control.

But generally if you want the Undead Mob at your beck and call, picking up Cleric is really your best option. Wizards are kinda... eh... as Necromancer Minion Masters. And from what I've seen Dread Necromancers aren't really any better than Clerics are, despite the focus.
Uh...

Undead Mastery: All undead creatures created by a dread necromancer who has reached 8th level or higher gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Dexterity and 2 additional hit points per Hit Die.

In addition, when a dread necromancer uses the animate dead spell to create undead, she can control 4 + her Charisma bonus HD worth of undead creatures per class level (rather than the 4 HD per level normally granted by the spell).

Similarly, when a dread necromancer casts the control undead spell, the spell targets up to (2 + her Cha bonus) HD/level of undead creatures, rather than the 2 HD/level normally granted by the spell.
A straight classed dread necromancer can easily have 2-3x as many undead at his beck and call than a cleric. The class suffers in other aspects, but saying it's not better at making an undead mob is just insulting. Necropolitan DN's are especially awesome because they can always heal themselves up to max out of combat.

[Toy Killer]

I have played a Wight before. I loved it, but it does present a difficult challenge.

Are you willing to be told what to do because a cleric or wizard told you to? Will you're party be willing? How will you handle the fact that you may not have control over your personal choices?

Holy shrines and folk will shun you, Evil Shrines and folk will want to control you. There is no will saves against Rebuking.

Healing becomes much more critical, and if you can't provide it yourself, it's just another level of control to work around. Not with. The living, in general, are perpetually your enemy and the game's environment, just by being 3.5, will reflect that.

I was under the domination of a fellow party member, I had to twist his demands to do as I please. Initially, it wasn't because I hated him or anything (In fact, I asked him to rebuke me to keep anyone else from being able to do so). But as time waned on, his charity began to wear it's toll.

Well, lets just say he should've been more astute to his commands and the party dynamic. This is the game that taught me that Wights deserve to be feared more then I've ever presented them before...

[Silva Stormrage]

Well, if you want the Undead Horde, and just worried about the level. If you don't take the class, but take the LA for the race, you could end up playing something like a Wight a few levels earlier and kill people to turn them into Wights you control.

But generally if you want the Undead Mob at your beck and call, picking up Cleric is really your best option. Wizards are kinda... eh... as Necromancer Minion Masters. And from what I've seen Dread Necromancers aren't really any better than Clerics are, despite the focus.

I agree with Zanos, Dread necromancers are THE army class to have. In addition, clerics don't have command undead (They can get it with divine magician but they don't start with it). Which is a MASSIVE boost for undead control as it doesn't give a save for mindless undead. Get a rod of lesser chaining and spend 2 2nd level spell slots every couple days and you can earn yourself more undead than a cleric could normally have in total. For example, level 8 DN with command undead chaining gives you 16 undead you control that you need to refresh control on every 8 days. Assume 12 HD on each of them and you get 192 HD. Cleric at that level gets 32 HD. The comparison isn't even close.

[OldTrees1]

I have no idea where to start with the whole army of undead build the dread necro seems to be one of the better classes for it how ever they cant start creating undead till level 8. Is there any way to get my army started sooner than that?

Arcane Disciple(Undeath Domain) gives you Animate Dead as a 3rd level spell. It also gives you Desecrate as a 2nd level spell(normally off limits to Dread Necros despite advanced learning).

Fell Animate works but is hard: Requires metamagic reducers and is slow to build an army.

[Zanos]

I have no idea where to start with the whole army of undead build the dread necro seems to be one of the better classes for it how ever they cant start creating undead till level 8. Is there any way to get my army started sooner than that? and from what I understand the corpse crafter feats do not work on undead from the summon undead spells right? I have also been toying with the idea of making use of undead leadership as well for an even bigger army make use of corpsecrafter to create powerful low level undead release them so they don't count against what i can control but attract them as followers/my cohort. .... would that even work?
Missed this question earlier. If you want permanent undead earlier, you could hire a cleric of questionable alignment to animate some meaty things for you. Ogres are a decent standby, having pretty good strength and large size. Buy them off the cleric, then cast command undead on them. The duration is days/level and mindless undead don't even receive a save.

[Yogibear41]

I was doing some messing around the other day and made up a level 1 human sorcerer gravetouched ghoul, its only a +2 la and if you are allowed buy-off that's not to bad in the long run. It starts with a +2 turn resistance and you can take a feat to increase it by another +4. You can also take ability focus, and improved paralysis(both at level 1 if human) and if you give yourself a charisma of 18 from point buy and then another +2 with the template, you have have 3 natural attacks at level one that if they hit the character would need to make a fort save of 21 or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds, more or less a save or die with some coup de grace action. Maybe combine with a well time color spray, at least to get you through a few levels. If you are using point buy you don't even have to worry about putting points into con and can leave it at 8, if you dump that and strength you should be able to get a pretty decent dex score to which you can use for your claw and bite should you choose to pick up weapon finesse at say level 3?

And like the others said dipping 1 level of dread necromancer for unlimited healing is pretty great in the early game.

If you follow the hunger rules you have to eat something every 3 days or make a DC 15 Will save, something that shouldn't be to difficult once you gain a few levels especially if you are progressing as a caster.

[Draconisister]

So I have decided on the Necropolitan Dread Necromancer. I would start off at 3rd level if I intend on making an army of undead where would you suggest I start feat wise. I also need to decide my starting race human seems appealing for the extra feat but I'm not sure if its the best choice. If you think I should take flaws for more feats I am limited to the ones on the SRD and the DM would like to limit it to 1 but may allow 2.

I also need to find a way to avoid the whole "EEEK UNDEAD KILL IT WITH FIRE" response from the local towns folk. I think that is as simple as maxing Disguise would pretending not to be dead be minor changes or trying to be an other race?

On a side note and probably a stupid question, what are the effects of having no con? I never was quite sure how that actually worked.

[Fouredged Sword]

Well, a hat of disguise helps. You are normal shaped, so just make yourself look human and try not to touch people. That should get you a +30 or so disguise modifier to pass as human. Also funny, disguise yourself as warforged. That explains the lack of sleeping and eating.

Another class to look at is dry lich. With a cleric and the thirst and sand domain, plus domain versatility and versatile spellcaster, you can enter at 2nd level.

You then get the capstone at ECL 11 and become a dry lich. Basically a lich ++

[cerin616]

changeling necropolitan - no one will ever know you are an undead by appearance.

[Yogibear41]

Well, a hat of disguise helps. You are normal shaped, so just make yourself look human and try not to touch people. That should get you a +30 or so disguise modifier to pass as human. Also funny, disguise yourself as warforged. That explains the lack of sleeping and eating.

Another class to look at is dry lich. With a cleric and the thirst and sand domain, plus domain versatility and versatile spellcaster, you can enter at 2nd level.

You then get the capstone at ECL 11 and become a dry lich. Basically a lich ++

I think you mean walker in the wastes, which turns you into a dry lich.

[Nettlekid]

I have a question about Necropolitan. Since it costs you a level and 1000 XP, but doesn't give you an LA, couldn't you make up that lost level over time? Like let's say you did it at level 3, having 3000 XP. You go to level 2, with 1500 XP, and then bump down further to level 1 with 500 XP. You're now level 1 in a level 3 party, but your ECL is 1 and you gain XP as a level 1 member of a level 3 party. Which is to say, quite a lot. Now, I don't really know how XP scales with lower level and higher CR challenges, but even without a slightly advanced rate, before they're level 5 you'll be level 4 too, and soon enough the gap is irrelevant. So, if you explained this to a DM, and were starting at level 10 or so, could you basically pick up Necropolitan for free?

Also, similarly, can you give a Cohort Necropolitan for free since it doesn't affect ECL and ECL is the only thing that governs how strong a cohort you can have? It would be a good way to make the most out of Undead Leadership.

[Draconisister]

our current party is lvl 4-5 and with the loss of xp and level I will start as a level 3.

That was my evil plan for my leadership

[Silva Stormrage]

I have a question about Necropolitan. Since it costs you a level and 1000 XP, but doesn't give you an LA, couldn't you make up that lost level over time? Like let's say you did it at level 3, having 3000 XP. You go to level 2, with 1500 XP, and then bump down further to level 1 with 500 XP. You're now level 1 in a level 3 party, but your ECL is 1 and you gain XP as a level 1 member of a level 3 party. Which is to say, quite a lot. Now, I don't really know how XP scales with lower level and higher CR challenges, but even without a slightly advanced rate, before they're level 5 you'll be level 4 too, and soon enough the gap is irrelevant. So, if you explained this to a DM, and were starting at level 10 or so, could you basically pick up Necropolitan for free?

Also, similarly, can you give a Cohort Necropolitan for free since it doesn't affect ECL and ECL is the only thing that governs how strong a cohort you can have? It would be a good way to make the most out of Undead Leadership.

Yep, it basically automatically applies level adjustment buyoff to the character even if the DM isn't using LA buyoff normally. XP is a river and so you should catch up pretty quick. My estimate is about level 8 you get back to the same ECL.

[Draconisister]

If i take the necromantic presence would that bonus apply to me as well being undead myself? (whom I hopefully control)

My feats are
Unreactive (flaw)
(1st) Corpsecrafter
(flaw feat)_________
(3rd) Improved Turn Resistance

what should my other feat be?
my feat at 6th lvl will be undead leadership
and my current turn resistance is +6 (dm wont let me start as created by a corpsecrafter)

[OldTrees1]

Lifesense allows you to use living creatures as torches

[Draconisister]

I'm not sure how important that would be seeing how being undead gives me darkvision

[Nettlekid]

I'm not sure how important that would be seeing how being undead gives me darkvision

Because it's awesome. You're there, skulking around in the darkness, maybe out on a scouting mission, and across the valley you see pinpricks of light where living souls walk. They shine like a beacon to you. C'mon, that's cool.

[Zanos]

I'm not sure how important that would be seeing how being undead gives me darkvision

You can notice anything that's invisible to normal senses since it will shed light. It's not super amazing, but it's interesting.

[justiceforall]

A further question to follow on from the OPs about playing undead:

Point buy stats, and the fact that undead don't have a constitution score. Does this mean you just don't have to put stat points into constitution at all and can simply spend those points elsewhere?

[ArcturusV]

Generally speaking. But you still have to know what your Con score would have been. There is always the chance someone will do you a favor and return you to life. In which case your "Ha ha, I don't have a Con stat so I'll pick a negative Con race and no points into con!" might come back to haunt you...

[justiceforall]

Doesn't the base race give you zero benefits though? Ie: its replaced by the undead template you've selected, and you'd gain no mechanical benefit by picking a minus CON race?

[Zanos]

Doesn't the base race give you zero benefits though? Ie: its replaced by the undead template you've selected, and you'd gain no mechanical benefit by picking a minus CON race?
The necropolitan template does not remove any characteristics of the base race. You would still receive ability score adjustments, skill bonuses, bonus feats, etc.

[justiceforall]

Sorry I was referring to general undead as characters (eg: a wight)

[ArcturusV]

I don't even think general undead status removes it. I could be wrong, just going off the top of my head. But I think if you're say... a Wight Elf, you still have -2 Con, and +2 Dex, still have Longsword and Longbow prof, etc. Granted the Con penalty wouldn't matter, as you have no Con. But still if you don't invest any points in it, and the party decides they're tired of you being undead and bring you back to life, you're looking at a fragile 6 con character.

[justiceforall]

Interesting, I read the libris mortis section as the undead you chose (a wight in this instance) replacing your base race stats?

Excerpt: "The only way to take a level of a monster class is to be that monster."

[Draconisister]

some where in that same section it says you need to pick a starting race because undead are different than other monster classes and you need to be something first.

[OldTrees1]

Most undead PC options, even as monster classes, are templates rather than base races.

Some spawned undead are an exception in that they use a generic version of the spawned undead. (Vampire Spawn are a race, Vampires are a template/template class)

[Urpriest]

some where in that same section it says you need to pick a starting race because undead are different than other monster classes and you need to be something first.

Yeah, the Libris Mortis classes explicitly require you to choose a base race. Read some of the examples in that section. This is unique to them, playing a Wight or the like any other way ignores your base race.

[Draconisister]

Ok so my brain isn't working my DM is giving me 9k XP to start with and I can't seem to figure out what my new total would be for the necropolitan.

also do you think my +6 turn resist will be fine or should i take lifebond some other feat if there is one to improve it? and I'm not really sold on the whole people are lightbulbs idea my DM would either forget this ability or just ignore it. giving be almost no bonus at all although the whole no one living could ever sneak up on the party at night does sound like a nice thing to have.

[Fouredged Sword]

You pay 1000exp, so you start with 8000exp, and thus are level 4 with 2000exp towards 5th level unless I goofed my math.

+6 turn resistance should make it so you don't have to worry about clerics under 6th level or so.

Another idea one could do to hide would be to play an egoist psion and take the shapechange ACF. This allows you to hide your appearence and qualifies your for warshaper. Then you can become a gish with that d12 HD, share pain and vigor, and fast healing from war shaper.

[Draconisister]

You missed the level loss I get.

a former changeling necropolitan Dread Necro is how I'm doing it it seems to be my best option for my undead army.

[Zanos]

If you became a necropolitian at 3rd level, it costs 3000 exp. 2000 from the level loss, and 1000 from the exp cost. This puts you at 6000, just hitting fourth level. You should catch up relatively quickly since you're ECL will be lower than your other party members.

[nickia]

If you really want to go all out with an undead themed character you should play a Death Master (Dragon Magazine Compendium). take what ever undead template you want and upon achieving 20th level as a Death Master you get to put the Lich template on top of any templates you already have, even undead ones.