Swordsage - 2 hands, TWF, or Unarmed?

[SirAxealot]

Which will be the most effective? Doesn't have to be straight swordsage. Starting @ 4-6, not sure yet.

[Greenish]

TWF is the highest investment, though it can be made to pay in terms of damage.

Two-handers have easier time getting reach, and leave more feats (and probably money) for other stuff.

Einhander is actually somewhat feasible option for a martial adept (the style, not the feat).

Unarmed probably plays much like one of the above.


In the end, which is most effective depends on what you want to do.

[SirAxealot]

TWF is the highest investment, though it can be made to pay in terms of damage.

Two-handers have easier time getting reach, and leave more feats (and probably money) for other stuff.

Einhander is actually somewhat feasible option for a martial adept (the style, not the feat).

Unarmed probably plays much like one of the above.

In the end, which is most effective depends on what you want to do.

Actually I suppose that is a bit of a question, two-handing a Greatsword/axe or similar vs a reach weapon like the glaive.

Can you go into a bit more depth on Einhander? All I know of is the feat.

[Fyermind]

TWF isn't a great style for most maneuvers (standard action attacks and all) but it carries a lot of boosts really well and becomes much better if you can get pounce somehow. I am a big fan of a level of barbarian and a level of rogue in my swordsage builds for pounce and craven.

THF is a solid style. Expecially with a spiked chain using high strength and dex with shadow hand feats.

Unarmed is great too carrying a lot of the bonuses of TWF and being less feat hungry. I'd only go that way if magic items to boost natural attacks were easy to get.

[Greenish]

Reach is quite a handy thing to have.


By "einhander", I refer to having just one one-handed or light weapon. It's a pretty bad idea for most classes, but with martial adept's strikes and boosts it could be made to work. More specifically, I was thinking of someone who'd want a Dex-focused character, without the investment in TWF, could take Weapon Finesse and, say, rapier or dagger (or unarmed strike) and do decently.


Which reminds me, there's also the matter of which stats you wish to focus on. It's quite possible to make a Str, Wis, or Dex-focused swordsage, but the tactics, feats, and to an extent maneuvers would be slightly different in each case (and I'm not sure which I'd consider the most "effective").

[SirAxealot]

TWF isn't a great style for most maneuvers (standard action attacks and all) but it carries a lot of boosts really well and becomes much better if you can get pounce somehow. I am a big fan of a level of barbarian and a level of rogue in my swordsage builds for pounce and craven.

THF is a solid style. Expecially with a spiked chain using high strength and dex with shadow hand feats.

Unarmed is great too carrying a lot of the bonuses of TWF and being less feat hungry. I'd only go that way if magic items to boost natural attacks were easy to get.

For what it's worth, I have little interest in Stone Dragon and only middling in Diamond Mind (unfortunately Diamond Mind is awesome so I may end up taking at least a bit of it anyways. I'm interested in Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Tiger Claw. They all share Unarmed, which is nice, and I would be ok with playing an unarmed fighter, but I'm concerned about the ability of unarmed to keep up with the other two in terms of damage. Similarly, TWF is a hefty investment and I would rather use the feats on other things, but if it's much better than the others then I'm game. The most unusual is probably a THF swordsage; I've never seen one, although I'm sure they exist.

[SirAxealot]

Reach is quite a handy thing to have.

By "einhander", I refer to having just one one-handed or light weapon. It's a pretty bad idea for most classes, but with martial adept's strikes and boosts it could be made to work. More specifically, I was thinking of someone who'd want a Dex-focused character, without the investment in TWF, could take Weapon Finesse and, say, rapier or dagger (or unarmed strike) and do decently.


Which reminds me, there's also the matter of which stats you wish to focus on. It's quite possible to make a Str, Wis, or Dex-focused swordsage, but the tactics, feats, and to an extent maneuvers would be slightly different in each case (and I'm not sure which I'd consider the most "effective").

I don't really care about stats, I'll just use whichever I need.

Also, I forgot Swordsages get access to Desert Wind. Unfortunately, it does lots of fire damage. So it's sort of on Stone Dragon tier.

[Rubik]

Why not mix and match? Go unarmed swordsage with a level or two of barbarian for pounce and Improved Trip, TWF and gloves of the balanced hand for ITWF, take the Long Reach feat (and a +1 aptitude necklace of natural weapons that affects your unarmed strike), and wield a glaive? Then you have up to 10' of reach two-handed, up to 15' of reach with your unarmed strike, and you can TWF with your unarmed strikes and two-handed glaive? Focus on boosts, charges, mobility, and special attacks, then be a tactical fighter, jumping in the thick of things and laying enemies out.

[SirAxealot]

Why not mix and match? Go unarmed swordsage with a level or two of barbarian for pounce and Improved Trip, TWF and gloves of the balanced hand for ITWF, take the Long Reach feat (and a +1 aptitude necklace of natural weapons that affects your unarmed strike), and wield a glaive? Then you have up to 10' of reach two-handed, up to 15' of reach with your unarmed strike, and you can TWF with your unarmed strikes and two-handed glaive? Focus on boosts, charges, mobility, and special attacks, then be a tactical fighter, jumping in the thick of things and laying enemies out.

I love barbarian as a dip, but it just doesn't fit the character. I suppose I could try refluffing it, but I'd prefer to look at other options first.

Gloves of the Balanced Hand would take either more than or almost all of my starting gold. Not saying it's insurmountable, but still. Would make it tough to afford the necklace.

And, just to be clear - you're suggesting the glaive be the main, and the unarmed strikes count as off-hand?

[Rubik]

I love barbarian as a dip, but it just doesn't fit the character. I suppose I could try refluffing it, but I'd prefer to look at other options first.Well, the whirling frenzy barbarian variant would give you an extra attack and would fit reasonably well. You fight in a battle frenzy, pushing yourself to go as fast as possible. Otherwise, you can take other ACFs to make it fit how you like. You don't even necessarily have to refluff, depending on the ACFs you take.

[See my sig if you really want some good fluff.]


Gloves of the Balanced Hand would take either more than or almost all of my starting gold. Not saying it's insurmountable, but still. Would make it tough to afford the necklace.Whirling frenzy and TWF would give you 3 attacks, plus another if you can manage a natural attack. You can leave the GotBH for later, if you want. Just don't take ITWF as an actual feat, and don't bother with GTWF, since that's a huge penalty to attack which will hardly ever hit.


And, just to be clear - you're suggesting the glaive be the main, and the unarmed strikes count as off-hand?That's exactly it, yes.

[Fyermind]

[See my sig if you really want some good fluff.]

That was very fluffy and adorable.

Unarmed can totally keep up. You get extra attacks about as easily as TWF (one for a feat), and can pick up extra damage from maneuvers and stances or even craven/power attack/ability stacking. You can have wisdom and strength and dexterity to damage and your choice of the three to attack if you are willing to spend 1-2 feats.

[Rubik]

If you want to see what unarmed is capable of, check this out. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[Grod_The_Giant]

They all share Unarmed, which is nice, and I would be ok with playing an unarmed fighter, but I'm concerned about the ability of unarmed to keep up with the other two in terms of damage.
If you can use the Unarmed Swordsage variant and get a monk's unarmed damage progression, it's not bad. Pick up Superior Unarmed Strike, a monk's belt... That said, this is 3.5, so THF will usually get you the best results for the least investment. (Emerald Razor + Power Attack + THF = pain)

[SirAxealot]

Problem is that my character is Lawful. If you know a way to make that mesh with Barbarians, let me know. I haven't ever found one, but I suppose there's probably a variant in Dragon somewhere.

[Rubik]

Problem is that my character is Lawful. If you know a way to make that mesh with Barbarians, let me know. I haven't ever found one, but I suppose there's probably a variant in Dragon somewhere.Hmm. Honestly, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever for even the default barbarian to be unLawful. A lot of tribal-based peoples have honor as a huge cornerstone of their cultures. That's Lawful behavior, yes? And there's nothing about rage that precludes a Lawful outlook on life.

Talk to your DM about having the extra-stupidly-stupid alignment restrictions revoked.

[ramrod]

Just something to think about.

Unarmed swordsages can still wield a weapon, as you are the weapon when unarmed. This means that you can still choose to be unarmed but hold a spiked chain for reach and aoos. If you choose to do this without investing in exotic weapon proficiency, you will attack at -3 (due to free +1 when selecting shadow proficiencies). This can also be offset with enhancing the weapon using money saved from not twf (see below).

There is no point taking twf. Too many feats and very few strikes make this pay.

Two handed fighting is good, but your DM may allow an unarmed sage variant to get flurry of blows for free as part of the unarmed package, meaning that you get the advantage of twf without investing in the feat. This means that if you go the sneak attack route you can charge in, use a strike for uber damage, then next round drop a fire elemental to flank, flurry and get xd6s extra damage from sneak attack.

Additionally, using a necklace of natural weapons, you essentially pay to just enhance 1 weapon (you are the weapon, not each of you feet/fists) but get the benefit on flurry attacks. Whilst this means you cannot have different abilities from each hit, it effectively frees up a lot of cash vs twf.

Unarmed swordsage.. I spent a long time umming and ahhing but I couldn't find a reason to not take it, even as a small whisper gnome with smaller damage range on unarmed attacks, it is almost irrelevant when most of your damage comes from strikes or sneak attacks... So you lose 2-3 damage from it being medium, this makes no difference when you are flurrying and snap kicking, with flames and further weapon enhancments for like 15d6 (complete estimate and most likely a lowball).

Can't wait to start my campaign with my swordsage. If you want a look, google search faerdin Shadowstalk, the maneuver selection is incomplete (wrong levels) but it might help!

[RFLS]

My 2¢: It sounds like you're a fan of single strikes and reach, and would like to be able to deal a fair chunk of damage. To that end, I would recommend wielding a guisarme in a locked, spiked gauntlet, as the Horizon Tripper build by Saph. This will give you reach, and allow you to trip pretty much anything within reach. Combined Shadow Hand and Setting Sun, you'll have very high battlefield utility. I would recommend getting IUS in some fashion so that you're not forced to 5-foot step in order to trip people. After that, Snap Kick would be an excellent feat.

[Greenish]

Unarmed swordsages can still wield a weapon, as you are the weapon when unarmed. This means that you can still choose to be unarmed but hold a spiked chain for reach and aoos. If you choose to do this without investing in exotic weapon proficiency, you will attack at -3 (due to free +1 when selecting shadow proficiencies).The main benefit of Spiked Chain is that it also threatens at close range, but if you're mainly unarmed combatant, you do that anyway. Take guisarme if you want to trip, and no need eat non-proficiency penalty.


There is no point taking twf. Too many feats and very few strikes make this pay.TWF is a bit feat/money intensive, but many boosts work wonderfully with it. I wouldn't pick more than the basic TWF, with ITWF from Gloves of Balanced Hand once they become affordable.

Double weapon is an interesting option, since you can two-hand it for strikes, TWF for boosted full attacks. Quarterstaff is a discipline weapon for Setting Sun. (Of course unarmed strike may make a two-hander more appealing even for TWF.)


Unarmed swordsage.. I spent a long time umming and ahhing but I couldn't find a reason to not take it, even as a small whisper gnomeThere is preciously little reason not to take unarmed swordsage as written, even if you don't plan on using unarmed strikes as your main tactic.

[ramrod]

"The main benefit of Spiked Chain is that it also threatens at close range, but if you're mainly unarmed combatant, you do that anyway. Take guisarme if you want to trip, and no need eat non-proficiency penalty."

I considered taking other reach weapons, but sticking with shadow weapons allows you to also make strikes at reach as well. -3 is a pain, but it is only attacks of opportunity at reach anyway, or when you want to keep out of attacking range of full attack nasties!

If you find yourself using it a lot, just take to ewp feat! Although this is unlikely, which is why I never bothered with it, even with a ton of bonus feats!

[ramrod]

Oh, I also remembered the main reason I chose spiked chain... It is finesseable. My swordsage only has 10 str, but 20 dex (including racial and item bonuses). This gives me +5 to attack instead of a neutral attack bonus, this more than offsets the -4 lost from ewp.

[Greenish]

I considered taking other reach weapons, but sticking with shadow weapons allows you to also make strikes at reach as well.You don't need the weapon to be a discipline weapon to use strikes with it.


Oh, I also remembered the main reason I chose spiked chain... It is finesseable. My swordsage only has 10 str, but 20 dex (including racial and item bonuses). This gives me +5 to attack instead of a neutral attack bonus, this more than offsets the -4 lost from ewp.Well, that makes sense.

[ramrod]

When you get disicipline focus, insightful strikes when you make strikes with the favoured weapons you get to add your wisdom to damage rolls.

By using a non finesseable, non discipline weapon I would strike at by bab with no bonus damage. By using a spiked chain I get +2 (-4 non proficient, +1 discipline focus, +5 dex bonus) to hit and if I make a strike +4 to damage from my wisdom.

[Greenish]

When you get disicipline focus, insightful strikes when you make strikes with the favoured weapons you get to add your wisdom to damage rolls.I know, I just misunderstood your earlier post.

[ramrod]

No worries :) I also forgot to add that if you take the shadow blade feat, which you should if you are sneak attacking, that you also add dex modifier to damage rolls when in shadow stance using a shadow weapon, so that would also be an additional 5 damage for me over using another reach weapon.


Back to the original point. Unarmed swordsage for the win. Strike unarmed, hold a spiked chain (if the stats fit) for aoos and reach.

You should have good wis and dex, with weapon finesse anyway for unarmed. Strength is more or less a dump stat. Some people argue that strength can be good for jump builds, you can get around this with boots of agile leaping (600gp) which switches str for dex as the bonus modifier or for stacking with shadow blade for extra damage, which just isn't worth being MAD for.