[PF] Druid

[kabreras]

Is it me or druid got a huge hit in PF.

Wildshape look totally crap to me and the ability flavor is all gone.

You gain like nothing from the form, why even pick an animal as whatever you pick you get just a defined set of things and nothing special

[avr]

Sure, PF Druids took a hit. They're still perfectly competent though. Decent spells which go to 9th level, an animal companion (albeit oddly worsened from 3.5e; no huge forms for example), and wildshape has uses even if it's not a total physical stat replacement as in 3.5. Beats the hell out of a PF Fighter.

You don't get to wildshape into an undefined monster, so you do need to pick something to change into when you use the ability.

[Talya]

I generally think that somewhere between the 3.5 and PF's wildshape would be appropriate.

Figure out what the animal's physical ability modifiers are. (Subtract 10 or 11 from the monster's scores to do this.) Apply those modifiers to the druid's base scores (unmodified by race.) This should give you the druid's new scores. If the druid is a particularly weak example of the human species, they will be a weak example of the tiger species, though still quite strong.

[Keneth]

Are you kidding? Wild shape is amazing, you still get all of the form's natural attacks and a large list of special abilities, you just don't get to dump all your stats like you used to be able to. And it only gets better with elementals and plants.

Yeah, they took a hit from 3.5, but polymorph in 3.5 was so horribly broken that there is no excuse in the world that would ever convince me to allow it back in my games again. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

Are you kidding? Wild shape is amazing, you still get all of the form's natural attacks and a large list of special abilities, you just don't get to dump all your stats like you used to be able to. And it only gets better with elementals and plants.

Yeah, they took a hit from 3.5, but polymorph in 3.5 was so horribly broken that there is no excuse in the world that would ever convince me to allow it back in my games again. :smallconfused:

This. Yes, Druids got nerfed, but Druids more than any other core class needed the hit.

[Talya]

This. Yes, Druids got nerfed, but Druids more than any other core class needed the hit.


Druids are generally considered the weakest of the tier 1s in core 3.5. While all the tier 1s could withstand a nerf, I don't see how druids needed it "more than any other class." Wizard and Cleric didn't get hit at all, really, apart from a few low level spells getting rewritten.

[Yora]

Yes, and that's one of the main things that Pathfinder does wrong.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Druids are considered to have the weakest spell list among the tier 1 classes.
That has nothing to do with Wild Shape though. I'm not all that familiar with PF but afaik polymorph spells took the same hit.

[Eldariel]

Druids are generally considered the weakest of the tier 1s in core 3.5. While all the tier 1s could withstand a nerf, I don't see how druids needed it "more than any other class." Wizard and Cleric didn't get hit at all, really, apart from a few low level spells getting rewritten.

Well, they have the highest floor optimization. They also end up most easily being superior to other types in their own roles. In that sense, for the floor level of optimization (and indeed, for low levels) they were the most problematic, or at least the ones with the most sustainable excess power.

[Psyren]

Druids are generally considered the weakest of the tier 1s in core 3.5. While all the tier 1s could withstand a nerf, I don't see how druids needed it "more than any other class." Wizard and Cleric didn't get hit at all, really, apart from a few low level spells getting rewritten.

It's simple really - Druids were the class that most made melee irrelevant, at all levels. Even if wizards were capable of earth-shattering power at mid-high levels, they still had a decent chance of wanting a meatshield early on. Druids meanwhile start out riding a bear, before going on to summon bears and become a bear themselves.


Yes, and that's one of the main things that Pathfinder does wrong.

Well, they did nerf Wizards too (so long Polymorph.) You can argue that it wasn't enough, but the differences have certainly been felt at my table. Certainly the lack of pyrohydras can only be a good thing.


Well, they have the highest floor optimization. They also end up most easily being superior to other types in their own roles. In that sense, for the floor level of optimization (and indeed, for low levels) they were the most problematic, or at least the ones with the most sustainable excess power.

Yep, this.

[Keneth]

This hasn't really changed though, a shifter druid will still out-fighter the fighter, so to speak. It's just not a free feature anymore.

[Psyren]

This hasn't really changed though, a shifter druid will still out-fighter the fighter, so to speak. It's just not a free feature anymore.

Certainly, but they have to devote stats to doing so competently now. This makes them less likely to then turn around and blast with high-DC lightning or tangle up a field of foes, unless they rolled up amazing stats that is.

That druids and clerics who put their minds to it can still outfight the melee isn't the issue I had; rather, it was that they could do that and still be powerful direct casters.

[Amphetryon]

I have had no issues feeling underpowered with my Pathfinder Druid whatsoever, even using him for an unusual Druid archetype (Mounted Combat) and limiting my Wildshape and Summoning list to Dinosaurs and Elementals. I've yet to see a situation I didn't have the right tool for, either immediately or after 8 hours rest.

Do I ROFLstomp all the enemies on my rampage through Tokyo? Nope, but I'm not trying to, either, since that wouldn't be much fun for the others at the table unless the situation were truly dire.

[HylianKnight]

Yes they got a huge hit. They went from being extremely broken to merely a lower tier-1 class :smile:

[Psyren]

Yes they got a huge hit. They went from being extremely broken to merely a lower tier-1 class :smile:

Clearly they are now utterly useless and need to be taken out behind the woodshed :smallbiggrin:

[navar100]

Wildshaping is essentially a non-spell buff that stacks with spell buffs. You get good versatility with it to scout, hide, or fight. While possible it is not so easy to outstomp a fighter or barbarian, and that's a feature not a bug. Instead you get to do a decent amount of stomping of your own.

Human druid
15 pts - ST 14 CO 14 WI 16 (+2), the rest 10, favored class bonus into hit points. Can easily dump CH to 7 and IN to 8 to get DX 14. Consider Toughness feat. You now have the equivalent of 18 CO for hit points.

20 pts - ST 16 CO 14 WI 16 (+2), again dump CH and IN for DX 14

25 pts - ST 16 CO 14 WI 18 (+2), dump for DX. Can just as well put the human +2 into strength for ST 18, leaving WI at 16 for 1st level. By 8th level it will be 18 when Spell DC really matters for attack spells. If you prefer more well rounded, put the +2 into DX or CO. Three 16's at 1st level is not bad if no 18 at all.

Wildshaping improves your ability scores further to comparable to what warriors are doing.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I do want to say, despite the nerfings, Druid is still a very good class and still (barely) in tier 1, so it is definitely playable. And there were some little gains, like most equipment effectively having wilding clasps for free now (melds but continues to function), large size and wildshape in general coming slightly earlier, earlier access to elemental forms, and Wild Speech being an easy to obtain feat rather than a significant annoyance to try and over come.


It's simple really - Druids were the class that most made melee irrelevant, at all levels. Even if wizards were capable of earth-shattering power at mid-high levels, they still had a decent chance of wanting a meatshield early on. Druids meanwhile start out riding a bear, before going on to summon bears and become a bear themselves..

1. Teleport Conjuror says hi. As does d6 HD upgrade and free bonus hp just for choosing not to dilute CL (favored class bonus). Wizards in PF are absolutely not that squishy, even at level 1.

2. Clerics made melee irrelevant just as much, and they ended up the same or better than before. The classic buffs all went unchanged or got better slightly (I LOVE the new divine power, it's so good!); they swapped heavy armor for freebie martial/exotic proficiency; domains got massively buffed... So how come clerics didn't similarly get mauled by the nerf bat?

3. Ironically, every single bear you mentioned there took a hit. Wildshape (and polymorph) was severely nerfed. Animal Companion was nerfed just as hard (yet they allowed eidolons, which are even more powerful than 3E animal companions...). Summon Nature's Ally inexplicably got bludgeoned, too. It's now purely worse than SM at every level.



Well, they did nerf Wizards too (so long Polymorph.) You can argue that it wasn't enough, but the differences have certainly been felt at my table. Certainly the lack of pyrohydras can only be a good thing.

Yeah. I turned into a Hydra once as a wizard. Went in, thinking I was all badass. I would've been...if the enemy hadn't survived the full attack. I was lucky to get out of that melee alive... Polymorph, good as it was, never made wizards fighter replacements (well, maybe some of the later MM entries did), and honestly...being the big stupid fighter is beneath them anyway. What it *did* do was let the wizard turn the party's actual Fighter into a Hydra or whatever and make him even more deadly. In PF, only specific crappy higher level "varied option" versions of the polymorph spell are not self-only. If anything, PF encourages role stealing more than 3E did by making it harder to buff your friends.

Aaaanyway...I hope you're joking about wizards being nerfed. They got the most buffs of any class except* maybe paladin (who actually needed them). They can cast prohibited schools now and prohibit divination, and take a bonus feat to get rid of those prohibited schools entirely. Their class features got huge buffs. +Int races are now super common and available right in the core player's guide. Lots of awesome new metamagic options, like Dazing Spell to tailor a save-or-lose to all 3 saves, as needed. Some spells got nerfed, but plenty did not and still win fights, more win spells were added, and again Dazing Spell makes lots of spells win spells. You also can find incredible items like Annihilation Spectacles for Transmuters. Lets you on the fly swap any prepared transmutation spell for another transmutation spell you know of same or lower level. Wizards got a lot of love in PF.



Yep, this.

No, not this. Druids had a high optimization FLOOR (nearly impossible to permanently **** up), but their optimization ceiling was limited by them having the cruddiest spell list of the primary casters.

*And the Sorcerer, just because of Paragon Surge alone...

[Psyren]

I do want to say, despite the nerfings, Druid is still a very good class and still (barely) in tier 1, so it is definitely playable.

The fact that you're even implying it may not have been playable had it fallen out of T1 is perhaps the biggest philosophical division between us. "Playable" starts much, much lower than T1.


1. Teleport Conjuror says hi.

That's a swift, so if the enemy goes first you can still end up grappled or worse at low levels with nothing in front of you before you get to fire it off. You can certainly escape with it, but you won't even get out of AoO range if you're just starting out. Also, ranged attacks are also a thing at low levels.



2. Clerics made melee irrelevant just as much, and they ended up the same or better than before. The classic buffs all went unchanged or got better slightly (I LOVE the new divine power, it's so good!); they swapped heavy armor for freebie martial/exotic proficiency; domains got massively buffed... So how come clerics didn't similarly get mauled by the nerf bat?

1) New Divine Power is significantly worse than the old one. (Feature, not a bug.)
2) Clerics lost spells/day, so the +Wis races are a wash.
3) DMM is gone, unless you specifically bring it back in.
4) Lack of heavy armor does matter at lower levels.




3. Ironically, every single bear you mentioned there took a hit.

That's a good thing!



In PF, only specific crappy higher level "varied option" versions of the polymorph spell are not self-only. If anything, PF encourages role stealing more than 3E did by making it harder to buff your friends.

All the ones that were shareable in 3.5 still are.



Aaaanyway...I hope you're joking about wizards being nerfed.

I specifically meant shapeshifting wizards.



No, not this. Druids had a high optimization FLOOR (nearly impossible to permanently **** up), but their optimization ceiling was limited by them having the cruddiest spell list of the primary casters.

Their "cruddy list" could still mop the floor with any level-appropriate challenge in the game, and several above their level besides. Pardon me if I don't have any tears to shed for them.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The fact that you're even implying it may not have been playable had it fallen out of T1 is perhaps the biggest philosophical division between us. "Playable" starts much, much lower than T1.

I said they're barely tier 1. Not that they're barely playable. In fact, I said still being tier 1 (even low) means they're definitely playable, acknowledging that any spot in tier 1 is still very good. Basically, I said the exact opposite of everything you're claiming I said.




That's a swift, so if the enemy goes first you can still end up grappled or worse at low levels with nothing in front of you before you get to fire it off. You can certainly escape with it, but you won't even get out of AoO range if you're just starting out. Also, ranged attacks are also a thing at low levels.

Lots of things are things at low levels. A lucky crit from a bow can down even a dwarven fighter at full health potentially. Low levels are swingy and dangerous for everyone. IMO, more so for the guys actually up front taking the most attacks and exposing themselves to the highest sheer odds of something going wrong. The game isn't low level forever, and a caster can insta-win the fight even at first level if given a chance (color spray), so it's not that bad.




1) New Divine Power is significantly worse than the old one. (Feature, not a bug.)
No, it's just plain better. It's only worse if over 50% of the fights you use it in you also get haste. Because the extra attack not stacking with haste is the only downside to it, otherwise it is better than the 3E version in every way (except temp hp, that stayed the same).


2) Clerics lost spells/day, so the +Wis races are a wash.
Meh, whatever. It's still a DC boost.


3) DMM is gone, unless you specifically bring it back in.
Everything from 3E is "gone" unless you specifically bring it back in. Why do people act like clerics are the only class that lost their favorite toys? Everyone did. At least clerics (and all other casters) have the ring of continuation. Does about the same thing. Still waiting for the PF version of 3E Stand Still, or Darkstalker. Or Staggering Strike. Or Imperious Command. Or any number of other good 3E martial toys that weren't nearly as good and yet have no close replacement at all in PF.


4) Lack of heavy armor does matter at lower levels.
So does the free weapon proficiency. Hence why I mentioned those changes together as a "swap" - a wash. Except you can probably afford the badass weapon at level 1, while as you couldn't afford full plate or any other heavy armor starting out in 3E anyway, so at first level it is actually a gain.




All the ones that were shareable in 3.5 still are.
Like Polymorph? It's higher level now and doesn't even give you access to all the various top level shape spells it emulates. Why couldn't Beast Shape, Elemental Body, etc... just not be personal in the first place? Aside from polymorph spells being nerfed, you're waiting till later levels and paying a higher premium for less bang on the buck for the shareable polymorph spells. It doesn't make sense, unless you thought buffing the martials with it was more troublesome than casters buffing themselves with it.





I specifically meant shapeshifting wizards.

Well yeah, they did get nerfed. Other types, like the save or suck/die wizards, got buffed, though.




Their "cruddy list" could still mop the floor with any level-appropriate challenge in the game, and several above their level besides. Pardon me if I don't have any tears to shed for them.

You claimed they had a high ceiling. That's only true in the sense that all primary casters have a high op ceiling compared to non-casters. Compared to the other casters, druid had and still has the lowest optimization ceiling. It was never about shedding tears, stop moving the goal posts. I'm not upset that the druid got nerfed. I'm upset that ONLY the druid got nerfed, and the other 3 all got buffed either a little (cleric) or a lot (wizard; sorc with paragon surge). That is genuinely ****ing INFURIATING. :smallfurious:

[Psyren]

I said they're barely tier 1. Not that they're barely playable. In fact, I said still being tier 1 (even low) means they're definitely playable, acknowledging that any spot in tier 1 is still very good. Basically, I said the exact opposite of everything you're claiming I said.

Then I misread your statement and apologize.



Lots of things are things at low levels. A lucky crit from a bow can down even a dwarven fighter at full health potentially.

Sure it can, just like a lucky color spray from the goblin shaman (or more accurately, an unlucky saving throw) can down your wizard too. No D&D character is invincible at any level, but the question is one of degree of risk, and if that fighter can get taken down at full health, the casters are that much more vulnerable.

At least, they should be. Historically, the Druid has not been nearly as in danger as others, even a druid that goes primarily for a caster role rather than beefing up his physical stats, and PF at the very least took a step in the right direction of changing that.



No, it's just plain better. It's only worse if over 50% of the fights you use it in you also get haste.

Why would you not have haste by 7th level+? It's only available to every caster ever (to clerics and oracles through BoF.) There's a reason every bonus-attack-granting-effect in the game and its mother specifies that it doesn't stack with Haste, because they expect you to get Haste.

So that's the extra attack out. The Str bonus is nice, except it doesn't actually increase your Str, but it's close enough so we'll go with it. However, I didn't know many clerics in 3.5 who were running out to buy a BoGS anyway (instead of, say, a Monk's Belt or Belt of Battle) so it's not as if you're actually gaining much of an increase over them even with the type changing to something rarer. And it is still typed, which does matter. And the increase is much smaller when you first get it, scaling very slowly up to where the other one takes you instantly. Yeah, it's better if you specifically focused on pumping your strength up, but that is again the whole point; if you want to be a fighter type in PF, hit the gym. (Only Synthesist missed the memo, sadly.) Once you do, sure you'll be better than the Fighter, but at least you had to put a little effort into doing so and that's fine.

And lest I forget, the old Divine Power did stack with Haste. So no, I disagree with you thoroughly, it is worse. (As intended.)



Everything from 3E is "gone" unless you specifically bring it back in. Why do people act like clerics are the only class that lost their favorite toys? Everyone did.

And good riddance.

The loss of mundane toys was to baseline the system; plenty of groups did fine without Darkstalker and Robilar's Gambit, so leaving them out just means that the groups that do want them have access. In other words, if mundanes are struggling in your games and the casters are doing nothing to help them (or they don't want magical assistance, which is odd behavior in D&D but anyway) you're welcome to bring those things back in. The end result is that the DM has a little more control over what gets introduced at the table without seeming unfair.


So does the free weapon proficiency. Hence why I mentioned those changes together as a "swap" - a wash. Except you can probably afford the badass weapon at level 1, while as you couldn't afford full plate or any other heavy armor starting out in 3E anyway, so at first level it is actually a gain.

Armor is much more important at low levels; wielding the Masamune at 1st level won't matter if you take 3 arrows to the chest.



Like Polymorph? It's higher level now and doesn't even give you access to all the various top level shape spells it emulates.

It's still useful, and Greater Polymorph/PAO are shareable too.



Well yeah, they did get nerfed. Other types, like the save or suck/die wizards, got buffed, though.

Since SoDs are among the jobs wizards should be doing, I call that a feature too.



You claimed they had a high ceiling.

Where did I say that?

[Keneth]

Other types, like the save or suck/die wizards, got buffed, though.

Huh? Most SoS/SoD spells I can think of got nerfed or don't exist. :smallconfused:

[navar100]

I do find it amusing that my Psion at 1st level has the most hit points of the party, and I didn't even use favored class bonus for the hit point. The kicker is the feat Psionic Body which gives you 2 hit points for every psionic feat you have. I get three feats - 1st level, human bonus, psion bonus. That's 6 hit points right there, double Toughness. Add in 6 base and 16 CON, I have 15 hit points at 1st level. The fighter only has 14. Eventually I won't have the most, but I'm certainly not going to be fragile.

Then there's Vigor. :smallbiggrin:

[DSmaster21]

I have never played 3.0 or 3.5 but considering that my friends were trying to munchkin the greatest characters ever (we had to restart six times this summer so that 3/4 of the party could change class again), (and their penchant for resolving disputes over who is the best turning to pvp) I have seen several of the base classes at the first two or three levels in action and against each other with a variety of differing builds. (I don't have many books: Core, Bestiary 1, and Inner Sea World Guide.) I would rank the classes thusly:

1: Bard and Cleric: Weird as it sounds they are strongest because they are treated as first priority. Especially in pvp the group wizard and such will gladly try to stall the fighter or barbarian because the bard or cleric can save them anyway. (Yes the druid can heal the others but the times that someone opted to play one they went for distracting spells or animal assault strategies.)

2: The Sorcerer and Wizard: If they are built right they can be very good at what they do whether it be buffs (my arcane sorcerer's specialty when I played) to magic missiling the armored units. Received less priority as in some cases they were used entirely as artillery and used evocation and crossbows (spent their feats to improve firing into melee, not always the best choice but arguing with the players is not what I like to do every reboot session). Typically pretty close to to level 1 but depends on how they are played.

3: Druid, Paladin and Ranger: The Druids are typically used almost like a conjuring wizard or a subpar healer, I personally want to see them using some sort of control build and plan to use one as my PC for my school game club. Paladins are often used as our backup healer and melee/AC specialists. The Ranger is used more for providing extra pressure as needed. (Yes the game pushes you toward focusing on ranged or melee if you centralise them through dex and have a moderate strength and spend you level-up feats on upping the other style you can do rather well at both and take out casters and brutes alike.) In case you can't tell the creation of a Ranger that was able to handle both styles really well was one of my favorite moments.

4: Rogue, Fighter and Barbarian: These can be the most valuable. The only reason I rate them the lowest is that they can be very useless when you have irresponsible players. A rogue should not after picking a lock, smash the door with a crowbar. Nor should the rogue have a -2 dex mod and their strength a 20 at first level. The Elf fighter should not have the stats 18, 9, 6, 20, 7, 7 just so he can be "the most badass Eldritch Knight Ever". (Note Same Player did both). A good player of a barbarian or Fighter can be a lifesaver. A bad one can get killed.

?: Monk: No one has ever played one in my group though I made a Half-Dragon NPC with a level or too that has never seen use as it is CR8+ that Murders things with its bare hands. Basically I add a level or two to NPC who have taken a level in badass.

[Eldariel]

It sounds like your players were trying to approach D&D like an MMO; you've missed out on some real nice potential in many of these classes.


1: Bard and Cleric: Weird as it sounds they are strongest because they are treated as first priority. Especially in pvp the group wizard and such will gladly try to stall the fighter or barbarian because the bard or cleric can save them anyway. (Yes the druid can heal the others but the times that someone opted to play one they went for distracting spells or animal assault strategies.)

As it turns out, healing when offensive effects do more than the healing is a losing proposition. This isn't an MMO; fights aren't healfests where you try to run the healer out of resources to start dealing damage. Color Spray, Sleep, Barbarian and company are lethal from level 1 and healing has no way of keeping pace with that. There are times for clutch heals in combat but by and large there are better options.

Healing out of combat is usually done with Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750gp as a group investment and lasts you for average 275 HP, which is basically a lifetime early on; Ranger, Paladin, Cleric, Druid, Bard and Use Magic Device Anyone can all use them - before that money can be assembled, a Cleric or a Druid is kind of necessary, granted; luckily not a bad place to be at).


2: The Sorcerer and Wizard: If they are built right they can be very good at what they do whether it be buffs (my arcane sorcerer's specialty when I played) to magic missiling the armored units. Received less priority as in some cases they were used entirely as artillery and used evocation and crossbows (spent their feats to improve firing into melee, not always the best choice but arguing with the players is not what I like to do every reboot session). Typically pretty close to to level 1 but depends on how they are played.

Magic Missile doesn't really do good damage early on, though; I wouldn't blame anyone for casting it at the right time at Caster Level 9 but at Caster Level 1, 1d4+1 damage isn't exactly what you should get out of a level 1 spell slot. The true, somewhat hidden power of these classes is early on in the array of save-or-X spells that can knock the entire force out of commission in one casting.

I mentioned the "hidden" gems already; Color Spray, Sleep, Grease, Glitterdust, Web, Pyrotechnics, etc. These spells can disable/heavily weaken even multiple opponents with a single casting, and the effects are generally brutal. They truly make those few spell slots do work to make up for their scarcity.


3: Druid, Paladin and Ranger: The Druids are typically used almost like a conjuring wizard or a subpar healer, I personally want to see them using some sort of control build and plan to use one as my PC for my school game club. Paladins are often used as our backup healer and melee/AC specialists. The Ranger is used more for providing extra pressure as needed. (Yes the game pushes you toward focusing on ranged or melee if you centralise them through dex and have a moderate strength and spend you level-up feats on upping the other style you can do rather well at both and take out casters and brutes alike.) In case you can't tell the creation of a Ranger that was able to handle both styles really well was one of my favorite moments.

Druids...are quite superb if used correctly. They've got some very good spells (indeed, I'd probably rate their spell list above Cleric for most levels though Cleric Domains make up for it), starting with Entangle from level 1, and don't forget the animal companion.

A combat-focused animal companion can still fight quite well and if it dies? No biggie. It does fine in the front, can be buffed and you still have the full casting Druid in the back. Druid options are certainly more limited than a Wizard's in offense but the ones they do have pack quite the punch and they get some of Cleric's group utility to make up for it.


4: Rogue, Fighter and Barbarian: These can be the most valuable. The only reason I rate them the lowest is that they can be very useless when you have irresponsible players. A rogue should not after picking a lock, smash the door with a crowbar. Nor should the rogue have a -2 dex mod and their strength a 20 at first level. The Elf fighter should not have the stats 18, 9, 6, 20, 7, 7 just so he can be "the most badass Eldritch Knight Ever". (Note Same Player did both). A good player of a barbarian or Fighter can be a lifesaver. A bad one can get killed.

They're generally the most expendable; as in other classes can produce effects that come close and they don't offer anything unique. Barbs and Fighters get slightly bigger numbers than the others for combat but in exchange for that they learn no spells, get no extra characters as companions and so on.

A Fighter or a Barb can do fine early on thanks to their classes' extreme focus on early level abilities but once the two-hander reach advantage begins to wane, they have very little. Seriously, a Barbarian with a Guisarme and Combat Reflexes & Improved Trip is pretty darn frightening early on for anyone trying to fight melee.

[eggynack]

Druids...are quite superb if used correctly. They've got some very good spells (indeed, I'd probably rate their spell list above Cleric for most levels though Cleric Domains make up for it), starting with Entangle from level 1, and don't forget the animal companion.

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of the 3.5 druid list. First level also gets you impeding stones (City, 66), which might actually be better than entangle, and wall of smoke (SpC, 235), which is a pretty great foggish spell in general. There's also spore field, which is generally worse than the other three, primarily due to it's comparatively limited radius, but if you just want a massive stack of BFC, it's a nice add on. Also, druids get primal instinct (DrM, 72) at third level spells, and a +5 competence bonus to initiative checks for 24 hours is a sweet business. Sorcerers also get that one, but druids are basically the only characters I'd actually use it on. I've never been nearly as interested in the cleric list, though I just generally assume that folks are accurate about its awesomeness.