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View Full Version : Is ToB balanced to 3.5 or PF?



DragGon7601
2013-08-18, 09:21 PM
I would like to have ToB classes in a Pathfinder game. The only thread I found on doing this says that you just got to fix skills so they use the PF ones. But how can that be so, I thought that the PF classes had all been powered up. If ToB classes are as strong as PF classes wouldn't that make them over powered for use in 3.5?

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When I first thought of converting ToB to PF, I got the Idea of taking some class ability's from Arcana Evolved classes and adding them to the ToB classes that filled the same role. I don't have the best knowledge of ether book, just a general overview. But that is because I never had the chance to use them.

Is there room enough power wise for me to do this? If so how much, as that question is why I went looking for a thread. I wanted to see how much power I could add before they became over powered. I was disappointed to see they were already powerful enough.

the thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=247986


It's easy to convert TOB to Pathfinder.

1) Change references of Concentration skill to something else. I favor Sense Motive, but Knowledge (Martial Lore) has logic.

2) Use Pathfinder skill consolidation - Jump and Balance are Acrobatics, for example.

3) Crusader's Smite works like Paladin's Smite.

4) Use the opportunity to fix TOB errors, such as stance progression (or allow adepts to swap stances like they can maneuvers) , Iron Heart Surge clarification, and clarify reference to "ally" in White Raven.

As I said, I don't have the best knowledge of ether book. So is there a thread you guys can point me to that elaborates on #4. I don't want to fix things only to find that what thought was the problem wasn't so I still have the problem. Even worse if my fix creates another problem/makes things more broken.

Hiro Protagonest
2013-08-18, 09:34 PM
While it is true that some classes got straight buffs, they're still not out of 3.5's league. Power level difference is still more about tiers and optimization within tiers than about edition.

Squark
2013-08-18, 09:41 PM
Honestly, depending on your class, PF wasn't a power boost. Fighters got hit hard by the way Combat Manuvers got shafted (More feat taxes), Rogues lost the ability to bypass DR with thrown alchemical items, things like that.

eggynack
2013-08-18, 09:42 PM
For number four, I can give a quick rundown. Stance selection is built such that you often miss entire levels of stances. This is especially notable for crusaders, because they don't even get access to the highest level of stance without a feat. Iron heart surge is just a mess, primarily because there's essentially no specific definition for what a condition is. You can turn off the sun, because the sun is giving you the condition of being in the sun. Narrowing down exactly what the ability can and can't do is critical, if you don't just get rid of the ability altogether. With white raven tactics, you're able to give an "ally" the next spot in the initiative order. However, based on some RAW stuff, you count as your own ally, so you can give yourself extra turns. Those are the biggest issues with the system, but they're pretty minor and easily fixable. The fact that ToB basically has no errata means that these issues are basically permanent within the game rules, so you need some kinda houserules to resolve this stuff.

Fako
2013-08-18, 09:49 PM
Sadly, 3.5e's balance point was all over the place, varying between classes. Not sure if you've seen it, but the tier system sums it up rather well, found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=269440).

As you can see by that thread, the base melee classes (fighter, paladin, etc) all fall below the balance point that the Tome of Battle classes already achieve. As such, some of the base classes got a nice boost in Pathfinder that doesn't necessarily need to be given to the ToB classes.

As for point #4, let me break it down piece by piece:
Stance Progression: The rate at which classes gain stances doesn't match the point where new stances become available. For example, a Crusader has two 1st level stances at level two, but doesn't get another stance until level 8. This is a level before he can get any stances from the 5th level options (and there are no 4th level stances in the book), so he must choose a new stance from the 3rd level options, which both of the other classes got access to three levels prior.

Iron Heart Surge: Here's the problem portion of the ability:

When you use this maneuver, select one spell, effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds. That effect ends immediately. That's as "specific" as the ability gets. Last I checked, gravity is constantly affecting you, thereby having a duration of "1 or more rounds". As written, this could technically end gravity's hold on you... (and that's only the tip of the iceberg). You'll need to set hard rules as to what Iron Heart Surge can work on, to prevent horrible abuse of the writing.

Eggynack hit White Raven on the head, with you counting as your own ally.

Cloud
2013-08-18, 09:55 PM
Well the basic idea that all the Pathfinder classes have been 'powered up' is a false one, several classes have net loses when you compare them to their 3.5 versions (bardic music being in rounds and bardic music effects no longer lingering being the main example I can think of, but the lose of feat material and the changes to power attack also make the fighter worse overall, and Barbarians losing rage when they fall unconscious is...well that's something >.> ).

ToB except for a few things is quite balanced for 3.5 (personally I'd argue the classes are even a little on the weak side, particularly the Swordsage with its recovery mechanic).

The Warblade is probably worth taking from level 1 to 20 thanks to the capstone, though a little bland; a few features here or there, while fixing the stance progression, would probably solidly make it tier 3 and worth taking all the way through.

The Crusader is also probably tier 3, but not as worth taking all the way through. If you went ahead and made its smite more worth while, and maybe made Steely Resolve scale a bit better at the higher levels (and of course fix its stances so that they aren't forced to multiclass out to get an 8th level stance), that's probably all you would have to do.

The Swordsage...I don't know, it needs something. The quick and dirty fix here is just to give it full BAB. A more detailed touch up would probably do something with how it uses maneuvers and recovers them.

On number 4, I mentioned the stance thing a few times, go through the book and look at what level stances are. And then look at what level they're granted. The mistake should be pretty obvious and it's an easy fix. Other ToB things that might need to be looked at, well, Iron Heart Surges needs to be clarified, and White Raven has that one stupid maneuver (White Raven Tactics I believe) that basically gives an ally (say your wizard) another turn as a 3rd level maneuver...which well, is probably nearly single handily why people think the entire book is broken.

Hiro Protagonest
2013-08-18, 09:59 PM
The Crusader is also probably tier 3, but not as worth taking all the way through. If you went ahead and made its smite more worth while, and maybe made Steely Resolve scale a bit better at the higher levels (and of course fix its stances so that they aren't forced to multiclass out to get an 8th level stance), that's probably all you would have to do.

Actually, the Crusader is the only one that doesn't have access to maneuvers or stances with non-combat applications. It's tier 4.

shadow_archmagi
2013-08-18, 09:59 PM
Short Answer: Yes, Yes.


What you have to keep in mind is that "overpowered" and "underpowered" are relative. There are some really good classes and some really bad classes in every edition of D&D. ToB tends to be superior in most respects (in extreme optimization, Fighter's feats can be spent to give him bigger piles of damage, but in anything less than theoretical conversations about uberchargers, ToB wins out pretty much all the time) to the core book's mundane melee classes, but that doesn't mean that it's overpowered!

In a party of a rogue, barbarian, fighter and ranger, a Warblade would probably be the strongest in the group. In a party of a sorcerer, a beguiler, a factotum and a psion, a warblade might fit in just fine.

Even with the in-the-eyes-of-some buff that PF classes get, ToB is still well within acceptable boundaries. It's not like D&D has Power Level 4 and PF has Power Level 7; they're both a range of many power levels.

Xerlith
2013-08-19, 12:37 AM
ToB isn't inherently overpowered. You can make some good builds with it, but the classes presented in the book are a solid Tier 3. Any Sorcerer or Cleric will completely overwhelm, say, a Warblade or Crusader.
What the classes do, is give options for mundane warriors.
Then, probably you don't want a Monk in a team with a Swordsage.

DragGon7601
2013-08-19, 01:00 AM
Wow their was a reply explosion. Thanks. :smallbiggrin:

I'm surprised to find that all those added ability's didn't do as much to the PF characters as one would first think. However I also take it that so long as the ability's are on the same scale then it would be safe to add to the ToB classes. Thanks for explaining the problems with the ToB maneuvers, I'll try to fix them when I do the conversion.

But first I will work on finishing some other subsystem/variants I want to use with these classes. (I got ideas for a Defence Bonus variant and a spell casting subsystem that I need to finish)

With all the changes I want to make I have basically worked out that it would be best to make my own core book. :smalltongue:

With some of the changes I'm looking at; putting Concentration (maybe mixed with Autohypnosis) back in the skill list seems unavoidable, can someone point me at a thread or give advice on the pit falls of this?

Also when I get round to making my changes to the ToB classes should I start a new thread or post them in this one (linking them with an edit in the first post). I would like people to look over them and point out any broken things I've added.

Xerlith
2013-08-19, 01:32 AM
In the Pathfinder game I'm running and using Tome of Battle with, I simply changed the Diamond Mind skill to Autohypnosis (Since I'm using Psionics Unleashed).
If there's any non-Diamond Mind Concentration reference, we're using Perception instead. Works like a charm.